Barbara Kean: What is She Hiding?

[Trini]

At the very least, Barbara's actions in episode 8 should be a turning point in Jim/Barb relationship. She knows how high the stakes are, and what Jim is up against. He knows that Barbara is willing to walk into the lion's den for him. (Even though they really could have written her part so that she came across as more brave than foolish.) The bad thing is, I don't know how much this will change how they write for her in the future.

[Camera One]

This is a good opportunity to change the direction of her character, and I hope they take advantage of it.  I am not that hopeful, though.  

[Danielg342]

It's Bruno Heller...I don't think he's ever written a female character that's realistic or redeemable. On his other show- The Mentalist- he has two main female characters, one of which is written to be vulnerable and naïve (Grace van Pelt) and the other (Teresa Lisbon) who is supposed to be the strong, confident one but almost always gets shown (like the rest of her team) to have virtually no competence on her own and to serve as Patrick Jane's lapdog. The only redeeming qualities about the characters is that the actresses provide that hidden layer of strength and independence, but you wouldn't know that if all you saw was the writing.

Unfortunately, Gotham doesn't seem to have actresses as talented as Amanda Righetti or Robin Tunney, so the caricatures stick out more. I don't know if this was deliberate on Heller's part- so that the acting doesn't overshadow the writing- but what it means is that I don't have much hope things will get better.

[Milz]

It's Bruno Heller...I don't think he's ever written a female character that's realistic or redeemable. On his other show- The Mentalist- he has two main female characters, one of which is written to be vulnerable and naïve (Grace van Pelt) and the other (Teresa Lisbon) who is supposed to be the strong, confident one but almost always gets shown (like the rest of her team) to have virtually no competence on her own and to serve as Patrick Jane's lapdog. The only redeeming qualities about the characters is that the actresses provide that hidden layer of strength and independence, but you wouldn't know that if all you saw was the writing.

Unfortunately, Gotham doesn't seem to have actresses as talented as Amanda Righetti or Robin Tunney, so the caricatures stick out more. I don't know if this was deliberate on Heller's part- so that the acting doesn't overshadow the writing- but what it means is that I don't have much hope things will get better.

 

I agree with you. Something tells me we can expect Dumbara to do even dumber things. For example, Jim tells her don't open that ticking package and Dumbara will immediately try to open it to prove to Jim how much she loves him and will sacrifice her life to save his blah blah blah......

[Actionmage]

This is from a TV Line interview with Danny Cannon- an EP; the question leading to the quote was about the general 'Huh?' around the Barbara/ Renee reveal in "Harvey Dent":

Cannon: It was the idea of however much Barbara tried to win Jim back, her failure to do so jettisoned her back into her past — a past where she basically was out of control, and numb to the pains, where she’d blocked out whatever turned her into that animal. Now she has opened those floodgates again and reverted back to…

 

TVLINE | Oh, is this a first step in a greater regression?
It’s about to get very dark for Barbara.

 

First? What "trying to win Jim back?" We were never shown, on-screen, Barbara feeling Jim was "lost" to her in the first place. Then her trying to "win Jim back"?  Her ultimatum certainly was not a choice I would have made if I was supposed to be trying to get someone to give our relationship another try. Then again, I am a female person in a flyover state. I have no head for these complicated relationship thingees, I guess.

 

Secondly? If we were supposed to be all worried because Barbara was going back to her hard-drinkin' and druggin' pre-Jim life? Why not show us that past, especially scenes of Barbara and Renee, so we in the audience get the f...rickking emotional stakes?!!? On-screen, we only saw tired-as -usual Jim with Barbara, then after the kidnapping, he was brusk with her when she called him at work during his shift. The literal next scene we have of her is her leaving the note as she leaves the apartment/condo!  WTF?   Ivy, with two or three total scenes in ten episodes, has had more characterization than Barbara!  What's up, writers?!

 

Lastly? Why darker for her and why now?  The only thing for keeping Barbara viable is some Emmy-worthy writing. (Or some almost Emmy quality writing.) I like the actress and want to like the character, but as much as Mr. Cannon seems to think we're getting, I believe we aren't. I think the seeming disconnect is pretty simply that: we are not seeing the story that the show seems to want to tell us about Barbara.

 

eta: Link to article (http://tvline.com/2014/11/24/gotham-season-1-preview-jim-arkham-bruce-selina-dark-barbara/), not spoilery, but there is some discussion about Morena Baccarin's  character just before the question I am discussing.)

Edited November 25, 2014 by Actionmage

[Delphi]

This is from a TV Line interview with Danny Cannon- an EP; the question leading to the quote was about the general 'Huh?' around the Barbara/ Renee reveal in "Harvey Dent":

First? What "trying to win Jim back?" We were never shown, on-screen, Barbara feeling Jim was "lost" to her in the first place. Then her trying to "win Jim back"?

Honestly, I'm foolishly expecting some epic amount of deleted scenes on a DVD release showing everything that apparently happens to these characters when the cameras stop rolling.

[Happywatcher]

She is dead to me as a character other than a villian.

 

Former lover comes to her to put the potty mouth on her current live in boyfriend?  Suspects her current boyfriend.

 

Boyfriend tells her something secret? Newspaper blabs.

 

Boyfriend in mortal danger, gives her clear tasking to clear the field for him to fight back? She pulls a stupid move and almost kills him.

 

How does she celebrate her rampage of betraying Jim? By fleeing him for sex with her former lover. Bye, bitch.

[Trini]

 

Lastly? Why darker for her and why now?  The only thing for keeping Barbara viable is some Emmy-worthy writing. (Or some almost Emmy quality writing.) I like the actress and want to like the character, but as much as Mr. Cannon seems to think we're getting, I believe we aren't. I think the seeming disconnect is pretty simply that: we are not seeing the story that the show seems to want to tell us about Barbara.

 

I don't get the writing for her either. Was it always their plan to break up Jim and Barbara in the middle of the season?

And bring in Dr. Thompkins as a love interest?

Then why did they bring in Barbara as his fianceé from the start? Now she's even more useless.

 

When I heard that Barbara was engaged to Jim, and a series regular, I figured it was because the writers wanted to have that relationship established so that they didn't have to waste time on a love story, so they could focus on more important stories. But now I'm not sure what they're doing with her-- and I don't think they do either. Now I'm just hoping they change their minds, and she's NOT going to be the mother of Batgirl/Oracle.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Trini

[Danielg342]

Erin Richards said she took the part believing she'd play a “strong” character, someone who might appear vulnerable but isn't. The only thing I can say is that I hope Richards either:

1) Knows something about Barbara that we don't- and I hope it's something epic like getting the drop on Maroni or something

2) Isn't happy at being lied to about how her character would progress

Because as it stands now she's nothing more than a damsel who has absolutely no emotional strength to speak of. I wonder what Jim saw in her in the first place- I hate to be cruel, but I'd have lost my patience years ago with someone as needy as Barbara is. At some point I'd have to tell her, “come on now, suck it up!”

[Actionmage]

Hey, Show Writers? Just What The Fuck was that?! 

 

If you didn't want to play with the Barbara Keen character, you didn't have to do so, seeing as you are the people who decide what characters end up in the show. But to have Barbara, who seems like the type of kid to do the very thing Ivy did, psyched out by a tween?!?  The way Barbara has been written, she'll sit on this phone call, accuse Jim of any number of things and get bitchier when he can disprove every single one. 

 

I get that she is, for unexplained reasons, spiraling into a depression/despair/whatever. Hitting the lowest bottom and then, supposedly work to make herself better. (This bit is pure speculation, by the way.) I just wish they'd had her struggling as we met her, so we, and Ms. Richards, would be spared this craptastic "storyline" she  has had to endure.

 

My hope is reserved for Ms.Richards.  Here's hoping.

[darkestboy]

Barbara is getting on my last nerve now. She's starting to reach Lana Lang/Smallville levels of useless now.

 

It's a shame because Erin Richards can act but she's being given fuck all to work with at the moment.

[VCRTracking]

The writers must have decided after a couple of episodes to just unabashedly make Barbara an unsympathetic evil shrew, who is just an albatross to Gordon, Montoya, anybody she comes in contact with. It's the only explanation.

[SilverShadow]

Barbara is a textbook example of "How not to write a female character." She's whining, nagging, useless, mopey, perpetually in danger, and every single thing about her character relates back to her relationship with Jim. They need to either rehabilitate her or kill her off.

[darkestboy]

I wouldn't be surprised if she is killed off at some point unless she gets one hell of a dramatic overhaul and fast.

[Spartan Girl]

She has the nerve to get upset that Jim supposedly got a new girlfriend when she dumped him to go screw Montoya behind his back?  What a fucking hypocrite.  I hope she's killed off.

[MarkHB]

My prediction: she gets killed off at the end of the season, and Jim eventually names his daughter (mother TBD) after her.

[ratgirlagogo]

Quoting myself from the episode thread:

 

I have complained before about the cliche bisexual woman stuff - but hell, let her be just TOTALLY FUCKED UP.  Edie Sedgwick! Janis Joplin!  Amy Winehouse! Courtney Love!   Edie Sedgwick would be the best one because of the fucked up rich girl thing.  And Gordon would be trying to save her - and also kind of into her wild fucked upness.  As it is she's just dull, doesn't seem to want to fuck either Gordon OR Montoya, and never seems like she's high, or would want to get high.

If she's supposed to have a history of drug problems (which the show has already established) and she's supposed to have relapsed, CAN WE SEE SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS ON CAMERA?  And not just described in the dialogue?  Her "addiction" problems are looking as implausible as Laurel Lance's "addiction" problems on Arrow.  (In both cases of course I blame the writers and not the actresses.)

 

Barbara is a textbook example of "How not to write a female character."

Or any character really.  Too much telling, not enough showing.

Edited January 8, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Danny Franks]

Barbara is a textbook example of "How not to write a female character." She's whining, nagging, useless, mopey, perpetually in danger, and every single thing about her character relates back to her relationship with Jim. They need to either rehabilitate her or kill her off.

 

That's not even underselling it. She's a disaster.

 

And I'm kind of enjoying that they've made such a colossal fuck up of this character that it seems the only way they can continue to write her is to make her legitimately unhinged. That's the only way she makes sense now, thanks to the nonsense they've provided her with. It's the only way I can understand her schmoopily telling Montoya not to worry about Jim, then calling Jim, then freaking out because a 'woman' (who quite obviously sounded like a young girl) answered. She's just batshit crazy, and needs to go away. And now they've added Morena Baccarin as her romantic rival? In any world you care to name, unhinged bisexual druggie doesn't stand a chance against that poise and wit.

 

Erin Richards must be cursing the day she accepted this role. God, why is it that one of the biggest reasons Peggy Carter stands out so much is that she's a well written woman? It's shameful that it should be a badge she even has to wear.

[darkestboy]

Barbara is easily fixable though, character wise - get her into rehab, away from her parents, actually have her work at that gallery she mentioned back in the opening episode, keep her mostly away from Gordon, have her interact with other characters

which seems to be happening as the synopsis for episode 17 has her and Selina bonding.

and if she does get back together with Renee, let it be because she wants to be with Renee and not because she can't have Gordon and actually explore their relationship properly too. Not too much to ask for really.

[Chaos Theory]

I like Barbara. I am not sure why. Maybe because I like characters who seem to be on the verge of snapping and taking a rifle to a clocktower. Hell I like hot messes especially female ones.

[Sakura12]

I didn't mind Barbara with the BabyCat and BabyIvy. She acts around their age so it works. And they actually had some good advice, the dress she wore to pick up Jim was an huge improvement. Jim just found someone way better than her. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Her hanging out with Ivy and Cat is the most I've ever liked her. She was tolerable.

Keeping her away from Jim is probably impossible, but I would at least like to see her have some good character growth before they start interacting again.

That way she and Jim can work things out like rational adults (whether it's to get back together (which I don't really want) or if it's to part amiably).

[Actionmage]

I don't think that Barbara is going evil. I think she is just not kink averse. She didn't shrink away or have her lip quiver in fear. Our Babs is/was a hard-drinkin' and drug gal. She is a disappointment to the circle of adults she knows, more than likely. She's acted out to, more than likely, feel something.

 

 

I also noticed that Barbara, when Jason was keeping her from leaving the ball ("I don't want to dance"), that instead of jerking around or making a scene, she relaxed back into his hold. To me, it seems Barbara has dealt with pushy rich guys before  ( the mentioned art gallery!) and probably has ways to deal with asshats in a quieter way.

 

I am curious as to how Barbara handles this.

[Spartan Girl]

Did anyone else laugh out loud when Barbara got so huffy and indignant that the Ogre supposedly thought she was the type of girl that cheats on her boyfriend? As if making goo goo eyes at her ex behind Jim's back and later dumping him for her was that much better!

[darkestboy]

Who would've thought that for Barbara to come to life as a character, she'd have to be paired with a serial killer?

 

If she doesn't end up a victim of the Ogre/Jason, perhaps this will be the start of an interesting path for her in the second season.

[Chaos Theory]

My god crazy killer Barbara is fascinating. I am sorry the Ogre is dead.

[Actionmage]

My god crazy killer Barbara is fascinating.

 

That's the thing: Barbara was never a killer.  She was in a pick someone or you die. She was hoping Jim would find her. There may have been nothing in the water Jason gave Barbara to drink. Maybe a sedative. Still, something in Barbara  broke. Barbara didn't read as "oh, okay! Well... my folks are big-time wet blankets...." She could have chosen Lee. She could have chosen Jim.   It still doesn't make Barbara a killer.

 

I was so hopeful with Barbara during the first part of the episode. Defiant, with her shoving, spitting, and slap. She knew she would be missed by someone and that he would try to find her.  I think it was the pictures, the line-up of those who'd disappeared without notice, that  did her in, emotionally.  When she came to and Jason was there, she lost faith in Jim, at least a little. Yet, when he showed up at stately Keene Manor, she was all whisper-talk and in shock. (Not that I blame her.)

 

Not sure where the show is planning to take her from here.  I was half expecting a clinging, in shock Barbara to be brought into the station and Lee getting the situation, but just not thrilled about circumstances. Not unlike her honesty about the flash of jealousy that we got.

 

I hope we get a stronger, more dynamic Barbara. She's there. The basics of a very cool character are there. The writers just have to look at the backstory they already gave her and make a damn gallery set. (If flippin' Daredevil could have a gallery, why can't super-stylized Gotham?)

[Chaos Theory]

I was thinking about it this morning and I think Barbara is going to be one of those characters that suffers from first impression trope (if that isn't a trope it should be). The way we as a audience see a character during the first few episodes determine the way we see the character until the end of time even if the character gets interesting (like Barbara suddenly has been) or boring.

Because really over the last several episode since Barbara has broken up with Jim really she has become an interesting character. Now with her parents dead....the source of her greatest angst I am interested were the show takes her. There are a few nutso shrinks in the Batman universe she can see after all or she can drink more gin.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[darkestboy]

The writers have set some interesting stuff for her in Season 2. I just hope they don't make a hatchet job of it.

[Trini]

Oooh, maybe they can connect her with Arkham, and by extension, various criminals/villains.

[Chicago Redshirt]

That's the thing: Barbara was never a killer.  She was in a pick someone or you die. She was hoping Jim would find her. There may have been nothing in the water Jason gave Barbara to drink. Maybe a sedative. Still, something in Barbara  broke. Barbara didn't read as "oh, okay! Well... my folks are big-time wet blankets...." She could have chosen Lee. She could have chosen Jim.   It still doesn't make Barbara a killer.

 

I don't think she was hoping Jim would find her. In fact, she explicitly told Jim "You're not supposed to be here" when he showed up at the Keenes. 

 

They could have done something to make it so that Barbara explicitly wanted to find her, such as yell something out during the taunting phone call that the Ogre made, or have Jim insist on some sort of proof of life so that she had a chance to give him a clue. 

 

In terms of the water, I definitely read that as Ogre drugged it. I suppose she could have just fainted. But still, I was living the stereotype of black person in a movie theater in my mind, being "Don'tdrinkthewater, don'tdrinkthewater, don'tdrinkthewater...aw DAMN!"

 

I guess the other thing that I wonder is what it says about her judgment. Ogre shows Barbara his serial killer room, complete with axes and knives, and her Spidey sense doesn't tingle a little? She voluntarily sleeps with him all night long? 

 

I guess it's good that they didn't make her a rape victim of the Ogre, for what that's worth. 

[Spartan Girl]

Did anyone else kind of laugh when she got slapped by the Ogre for saying "Jim will find me"?  Because the first thing that ran through my mind was, "Oh, you mean the ex you treated like shit and abandoned for your ex-girlfriend?"

[MarkHB]

Wow... I honestly didn't realize Erin Richards had it in her to take Barbara to the place she landed in the finale.  Just... wow.  I'm amazed (in a good way).

 

From the TVLine recap slideshow:

Ben McKenzie says that while the relationship between Jim and his fiancée "was always supposed to not end well," steering her into down this very dark, psychotic path "was an adjustment on the fly. We needed to figure out how best to use Erin [Richards], a wonderful actress." Bruno Heller confirms that midstream change, saying, "Where that story went was just a sort of chemistry of the storytelling, which is always fun."

[Milz]

Wow, like the viewer couldn't tell Dumbara's darkness descent was not an "adjustment on the fly"...........The writers did a horrible job with Barbara, including this Dumbarella average everyday psycho killer. Seriously, they couldn't figure out what to do with this character they took the easy way out: make her into a batshit crazy killer.

 

Kill her off. Don't let any of her Dumbara DNA be a part of Barbara Gordon.

 

I hope Erin Richard's contract was a good one so she'll get residuals for a very long time. Heller owe it to her.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Milz

[Philbert]

 

Oooh, maybe they can connect her with Arkham, and by extension, various criminals/villains.

 

After all, a certain red headed lunatic named Jerome is already there.

[VCRTracking]

I think she's kind of like Amy Dunne but without the intelligence.

[Spartan Girl]

Well, she definitely has Amy Dunne's self-entitlement and "the world owes me" me attitude. But I think even Amy Dunne would be offended at being compared to this idiot lunatic of a character. Which is saying a lot considering how messed up Amy was.

[HoodlumSheep]

I like what they've done with Barbara. I think Erin Richards did a good job with the psycho stuff.

As long as they keep Babs away from Jim as much as possible, because Ben and Erin don't have chemistry.

Was Erin Richards a regular for season 1? Sorry, stupid question. I wonder if she's staying a regular or if she'll be bumped down to reoccurring. Have I missed all the casting announcements? I know about Leslie and Lucius already.

Edited June 24, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[MarkHB]

The 2015-16 synopsis has been posted over in the spoiler thread, and it mentions

"the increasingly unstable Barbara Kean" in the list of "the city's most malevolent villains," which also includes Nygma and Selina

.

[darkestboy]

That sounds great actually.

[VCRTracking]

From the season 2 preview it looks like they're going all in with Barbara being a villain and Erin Richards seems to be enjoying playing the hell out of it!

[Milz]

Wow! Here's to hoping they'll kill off the character.

[Chaos Theory]

I never hated Barbara I just found her meh in the beginning but somewhere toward the middle and increasingly toward the end I began to find her fascinating and I would love to see an "increasing unstable Barbara."

[Winnief]

Psycho Villain Barbara is more bearable than Annoying Barbara was, but still  I can't for the life of me figure out how we get Barbara Gordon out of this.  It doesn't look like she's already pregnant, Jim ain't hooking up with her again, (except under drugs which admittedly in this universe is possible,) and even if Barbara's mother was another woman why on earth would they name the kid Barbara?!?

 

I have a crazy suspicion that the scenes with Barbara and Future Joker, (who's a ginger just like Batgirl,) might be to establish that they hook up, (EEEEWWWWW!!!) and they were the bio parents of our beloved Oracle who Jim adopts.  Or she spawns with some other guy.  Which would certainly be a twist, but not one I think fans would be tremendously thrilled with.  Seriously though-how does this freak show end up birthing one of the most awesome and brilliant super heroines in the DC verse?!?

[darkestboy]

We don't get Barbara out of this. I guess at some point they'll have Jim and Leslie maybe adopt a girl who happens to be called Barbara.

 

As for psycho Barbara, I'll take her over soppy bland generic girlfriend one.

[DeathQuaker]

Barbara "Batgirl/Oracle" Gordon's exact parentage changes from continuity to continuity. While sometimes she has been depicted as Barbara Kean's daughter, she has also often been written as Jim Gordon's niece, whom he adopted when his brother and his wife died (so they have a father-daughter relationship but are not biologically father-daughter). I think sometimes she's also shown as the daughter of another wife of Jim's.

 

Given the direction they're taking Barbara Kean in Gotham, I would be strongly surprised if they made her be the mother of Babs. I reckon if Babs is introduced at all, they'll probably do the niece version and bring her in in a later season.

 

In the comics, Barbara Kean is only consistently depicted as the mother of one character:

James Gordon, Jr., a psychotic criminal. And given her Gotham storyline, I would assume they ARE going to have her birth HIM at some point. Alternately, maybe they're just going with her being the crazy one.

 

I do like the twist of her storyline and am looking forward to how they develop her.

[DeathQuaker]

I started rewatching season 1 with some friends, and on reflection -- the way Barbara is portrayed seems to indicate VERY early on that something is NOT quite right upstairs there. On rewatch of episode 1, Montoya says something like "he doesn't know you like I know you," which on the surface is just the usual jilted ex dialogue, but the expressions between the two women seemed to suggest Montoya was also suggesting, "He thinks you're a good person, and I know you're more complicated than that." I could very, very well be reading into things, but I'm seeing signs that on reflection she was meant to go down crazy street all along. I think the reactions to the character may have sped up that storyline, but I'm seeing seeds of it even in the pilot. It's largely in performance so it's hard to put into words however.

[Actionmage]

I keep seeing folks  putting Barbara together with the "criminal mastermind" tag Theo slapped on all the now-dead Maniax ( except maybe Aaron), which Babs denied. I think she is an amoral thrill-seeker. She doesn't want to kill everybody, but she isn't going to stop folks she knows who will kill. She's sleeping with two very dangerous actual criminal masterminds. She's dated two cops. She's done drugs and had to get clean.  If she was a criminal mastermind, she could have made all sorts of cash through her art studio and been a player in the organized crime side of things, yet she didn't. 

 

Barbara is having a time doing whatever the hell she feels like whenever she feels like it because she has no one to tsk-tsk her over stuff. Not even Renee or Jim, really. She feels like being threatening and "batty" to Lee about Jim, who I really doubt she wants back? She can and does. There have been no consequences for anything from The Ogre  to now.  The GCPD is hunting her, in their way, but she was barely in Arkham when she was busted out by the Galavans.  She is living the high life, causing mayhem  for the city and grief for Jim and Leslie and loving every second.

 

I believe that Barbara is in need of most of the therapies, but Arkham wasn't necessarily the wrong place for her. Arkham just needs... well, everything. (In the comics, there are competent professionals that try to help those that want the help, as not every patient in Arkham is a super-villain, just a great number, iirc.) 

 

I am loving how Erin is just going all-out and enjoying the hell out of Barbara this season. Erin gives her such energy and bounciness, but then can go scary BSC on you in a heartbeat. It's good to see her obviously enjoying her work.

[MarkHB]

I realize that Jerome and Barbara were the producers' way of giving us the Joker and Harley without actually giving us the Joker and Harley... and when she hit Theo over the head with a mallet I just about died laughing. Now I want to see Erin and Margot Robbie do a panel together!

[Gulftastic]

She's got legs. She knows how to use 'em.