S02.E04: A Dance Of Dragons

[Stardancer Supreme]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Both Sunfyre and Melys crashed to the ground in a fiery explosion, which I guess is to be expected of a fire-breathing dragon. I don't see how Aegon survives that if Rhaenys does not.

Yes, but "attack" downright sent shivers down my back.

As for why Aegon survives his fall when Rhaenys did not; I will surmise that Sunfyre shielded Aegon from most of the impact of the fall into the forest. Youth could also be attributed to the fact that niether of them died upon impact.  Meleys died midair with Rhaenys on her back. Then Meleys fell back down into the castle at Rook's Rest and there would be no way for Rhaenys to survive that impact. 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose it is possible that till now no one has tested the theory of whether you needed to have actual Targaryen DNA to ride a dragon. It could be that having the blood of Old Valyria is good enough. It could also be that just being bold enough to try to claim a dragon would suffice and the Targaryens have been engaging in some propaganda over the years to secure their authority. (I suppose it's possible that it just so happens that Corlys slept with a woman who was herself a Targaryen bastard, though one would think that the Hulls would be lighter-skinned.)

I'm willing to bet that only Old Valyrian blood is needed to ride dragons.

8 hours ago, aghst said:

Someone theorized that Rhaenys knew Corlys had cheated on her so she was ready to die.

Don't buy it but she supposedly had the best dragon for the Blacks so maybe she thought she could take out Aemond.

I didn't read Rhaenys' scene with Alyn that way. Remember, Corlys wants a male heir to Driftmark. Rhaenys tried, for the last time, to press Corlys to make his full blood granddaughter the heir to Driftmark. Failing in that, she merely wanted Alyn to know that she knew about him and his brother(s) and that she was okay with that. I'm not surprised that Corlys thought he was slick enough for his wife not to know about his bastards. Looking at Alyn and Corlys together in that scene, seeing that they strongly resembled each other (shout out to the casting of the Hulls!), and seeing that Alyn shaved his head only to hide his parentage wasn't as smooth of a deceit as they thought it would be.  Rhaenys wasn't stupid; I'm sure she put 2+2 together really quickly once she learned of Alyn saving his father's life, which Corlys did keep from her.  Seeing that she couldn't secure Driftmark for Rhaena, she probably made peace with that and in participating in a smuiside mission to help Rhaenyra gain the throne. I wonder if we will get to see Alyn and Addam's mother.

 

7 hours ago, baldryanr said:

It would cheapen the character if "my husband cheated on me a few decades ago" somehow equated to screw it, my life is worthless and worth sacrificing.   If anything, this showcases the entire problem both sides have - the dragon riders are all far too valuable to be risking in battle.  To use the nuke analogy, that would be like requiring the pilots of bombers to be 4 and 5 star generals.

Totally! Rhaenys been knew about Corlys' bastards; as opposed to Cersi killing most of Robert Baratheon's bastards, Rhaenys probably didn't concern herself with them until her children were gone.

[Lady S.]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I imagine that Larys had no clue specifically about Cole and Ali. But he saw the container of Plan Tea, so I suspect he's about to find out what made Ali drink it and is getting actual action with her while he (presumably) is still stuck wanking it to her feet. Or maybe there's enough of Ali to go around these days.

Larys has spies in her household by choosing all her new servants, and made a crack about how she must worry about Criston at war. No way he doesn't know, imo. I doubt he ever thought he'd get further than jerking it in her presence, and one of the reasons I like Larys better than Littlefinger is that he doesn't seem to let romantic fantasies cloud his scheming. There's a sexual attraction to Alicent, but mainly he glommed onto her way back when just because she was vulnerable with Otto gone and he saw an opening. He probably would've ingratiated himself with Viserys or Otto first if he thought he had a chance with them. Now that his Queen's busy with Cole, he got in good with Aegon, and we haven't seen him even try to keep his intimacy with Alicent until now, after the king yelled at him in council. Always keeping his bases covered to play the game of thrones in the shadows, this guy.

 

3 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

I keep going back to poor Sunfyre who probably had no clue he was going to battle.  Also looking at the scene with him nudging Aegon, it really looked like the dragon was smiling and being playful.  Sunfyre is probably one of the two beings  in this world that really loved Aegon, the second I assume was his son. Also was Aegon always drinking this heavily or did it start after Jahearys’s death.
 

Yeah, not only were they more inexperienced in battle than Vhagar, Aegon was drunk-flying, after drinking wine all day right up to when he was being put in his armor, so no wonder he was such an unsteady flier. I'm sure the death of his son has only made things worse but Aegon's had a drinking problem at least since he was 13 and passed out drunk after Laena's funeral. Another symptom of the poor parenting by all the people who failed to prepare him for kingship. (Half the king his father was would still be a pretty shitty king, since Viserys was a weak monarch who caused this mess almost as much as Otto did, by failing to rule the realm or manage his family properly.)

And Alicent was drinking this ep too, doing her best Cersei Lannister by holding a wine goblet and just saying whatever she wanted in her scene with Aegon.

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

She was but it didn't seem to be having any effect.  She did get a slash or two into Vhagar's belly though.

Yeah, I guess she was trying to wound Vhagar enough to weaken her for Daemon/Rhaenyra to finish the job, or just take out Aemond without killing Vhagar as he had to dodge the dragonfire. She must have assumed he'd hunt her down if she tried to retreat, so was determined to do as much damage as she could to go out better than Luke did.

I actually thought the whole tussle showed that Aemond is vulnerable and that Daemon/Rhaenys together could have downed Vhagar and killed Aemond. Which is why it's not such a good move to deliberately take out the only other dragonrider on his side. (All we've heard of Daeron's dragon is that it may be nearing fighting size, but I'd think thats means the size of Moondancer at best.) Of course we know Vhagar won't be taken out anytime soon because there's at least one more season to go in this story, and I don't blame him for wanting revenge on the person who's hurt him the most, but I don't think he's so invincable as to win the war on his own, and that he really just looks smart in comparison to Aegon. He's definitely not controlling his impulses as Otto would wish.

I liked seeing that the dragon saddle for Meleys came with a kind of seatbelt, useful when you're trying to keep a seat that high up. Also liked the detail of the blood from Sunfyre's wounds smoking as it hit the ground and doing even more injury to Aegon's army.

[Chicago Redshirt]

32 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Larys has spies in her household by choosing all her new servants, and made a crack about how she must worry about Criston at war. No way he doesn't know, imo. I doubt he ever thought he'd get further than jerking it in her presence, and one of the reasons I like Larys better than Littlefinger is that he doesn't seem to let romantic fantasies cloud his scheming. There's a sexual attraction to Alicent, but mainly he glommed onto her way back when just because she was vulnerable with Otto gone and he saw an opening. He probably would've ingratiated himself with Viserys or Otto first if he thought he had a chance with them.

I don't know if you intended to make me visualize Larys whacking it to Otto or Viserys' feet, but you did, and now you will need brain bleach too.

[Chicago Redshirt]

33 minutes ago, peridot said:

I was surprised that Cole went behind Aegon's back to plan the ambush.  He doesn't even try to appear honorable anymore.  Holy crap at the murder attempt by Aemond, though!  Wasn't he worried about what the witnesses would say?

I don't know if it is "dishonorable" to not involve Aegon in planning things, per se. It is not necessarily smart, because there was the danger of this exact scenario of Aegon finding out and charging into battle unnecessarily. But given that Aegon is an idiot with no head for battle, ruling, justice or anything beyond the occasional rape and petty bit of bullying, I could see keeping him in the dark.

Why would Aemond be worried about witnesses? Between people being dazed or dead from the aftermath of the battle, to them being intimidated by Aemond's wealth and power, to Aemond just killing them too, the chances of him having to face any consequences for killing Aegon are small. If he succeeds, then he's the king -- I don't think Aegon had a spare male heir after his son got got. Aegon had absolutely no one who was loyal to him personally of any consequence. So there's not really a good in-universe reason for him to not follow through and murder Aegon and any witnesses.

57 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

This episode really demonstrated why it's a bad idea for the Hand and the Lord Commander to be the same person. Cristy's out fighting battles and there was no one to keep things running in King's Landing and, more importantly, keep Aegon from doing stupid shit.

...

I know Aegon's not dead because Aemond had drawn his sword to finish the job (up to debate whether it would have been a mercy killing or one he'd relish doing up close).

But things were running fine in KL -- nothing suggested that between the Small Council and the Queen there were any greater-than-normal problems with Crispy being gone, until Aegon let his ego (just noticed you can't spell "Aegon" without "ego" right there in the center) get in the way.

As someone pointed out, there's a part in GOT that spoils how at least part of the civil war ends...

In S.3E4, Joffrey tells Margaery that Rhae was murdered by her brother, or rather by his dragon. Joffrey tells her that the dragon ate her while her son watched. Now I suppose it could be taken on its face that that might be a reference to Aegon or Aemond, or some third brother that we haven't met yet.

Also, I love this dude who does a comedic review of each episode. 

Fair warning: he likes to use the n-word quite a bit and say a lot of other non-PG sort of things. I find him hilarious tho.

 

[DigitalCount]

As far as how Aegon survived: the impression I got was that Sunfyre might have intentionally shielded him somewhat because he was still alive when he fell, as opposed to Meleys who was dead before she hit the ground.

That's about all I can muster tonight. Note to self: don't stan any characters (first Luke, and now Rhaenys, so I'm not going to make any commentary on how cute it was to see Jace and Baela united, or even think about Corlys or his illegitimate son)

[Linderhill]

 

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm getting a little bored with Daemon and his hallucinations/visions. In fact I was getting a little bored with this episode up until about the last half which more than made up for it. Talk about tense.

me too.  Its way past time for Daemon to get off of his butt and out of his head and actually contribute something to the cause besides making everything worse.  From what I understand, Daemon and Rhaenys were the only dragon riders that actually have combat experience.  All of the rest, the riders and/or the dragons are young or inexperienced.  Of course now it's only Daemon with experience.  

RIP Rhaenys and Meyls, you were my favorite characters.

[Lady S.]

Forgot to mention Alicent dropping and breaking the dragon figurine she'd once had mended for Viserys. In an ep with two dragons going down, that's even more symbolic than Aegon destroying the rest of Vizzy's Old Valyria model in ep 2.

Nice to hear more from Alys Rivers and hear the actress's Scottish accent. Last ep her one line sounded almost like an American accent, which was a bit weird. Good to know they have homegrown witches in Westeros, since the only ones I recall from Thrones (Melisandre and Mirri Maz Duur) were both Essosi.

Speaking of Strong bastards (remember all these Harrenhal folk including Larys are Jace's blood just as much as his Targ kin), Jace has adopted stepdad Daemon's stance of resting both hands on the pommel of his sword, and the attitude of losing his patience and rolling his eyes at Rhaenyra's questionable choices. Still more respectful though because that's his mom, so striking the perfect balance between dutiful prince eager to fight and justifiably exasperated. Striking how that asshole Ser Alfred felt free to talk back to royal dragonriders but shut up once Corlys came on the scene. Seems like the councillors' disrespect for Jace is because of his youth and I think they'd act just as dismissive of a green boy with Valyrian hair. To continue earlier discussions, it's not so much that I think he could win the war with Rhaenyra dead as that her death would not automatically end the war as Jace (and Baela) would be unwilling to bend the knee and would want revenge along with Daemon, so they and/or their dragons would have to be killed too for a true victory. Those who care about Rhaenyra's harlotry were probably unlikely to support her in the first place, and those who may have wanted to honor their original oath to Viserys if only all the heirs were legitimate now have an even better reason not to back Team Black with the babykilling issue.

So Daemon's being haunted by the old gods as a bad uncle and his response is to double down on being pro-kinslaying by trying to suggest grandfatherslaying to a kid whose House words are Family, Duty, Honor. Meanwhile his mirror Aemond is the one actually trying to speed up his inheritance, so to speak.

[Jack Shaftoe]

The dragon fight was pretty spectacular, I will give them that. Not too sure about that guy who turned to ash with his armor still intact, that's not how physics works. :)

Rhaenyra's faction with another "genius" move - why not send all of your dragon riders? Just in case dragons show up on the enemy side and for the riders to gain some experience in how to make a human barbecue. When you get outwitted by Criston "I am constantly confused" Cole, then you not only aren't worthy to rule a huge kingdom, you shouldn't run even a lemonade stand. And I hate how Rhaenyra keeps talking about this stupid prophecy because god forbid a character to actually want power for power's sake without being a mustache-twirling caricature. Weirdly enough, people generally loved Cersei who didn't have any such excuses, yet this show seem deathly afraid to make either Rhaenyra or Alicent look nearly as power hungry as the men who surround them.

Alicent is only now telling his idiot son to watch and learn from wiser men... not that there seem to be many of those in his council.

Daemon openly suggesting the Tully heir murder his grandpa would have been more noteworthy if saying dumb stuff and having zero self-preservation skills like that wasn't par for the course for him.

Why do the Blacks still lack even a semblance of an army? It's not like Viserys died yesterday, you can still hope for peace while gathering your troops. Freaking Stannis gathered more of an army and he didn't have more than a decade to prepare his faction for a possible civil war.

You would think that Aegon of the short temper would have been a lot more pissed at his brother ordering around his Hand behind his back but maybe he is scared of that eyepatch.

 

Edited July 9 by Jack Shaftoe

[Dobian]

Just rename Aemond's dragon Godzilla and be done with it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Rhaenyra's faction with another "genius" move - why not send all of your dragon riders? Just in case dragons show up on the enemy side and for the riders to gain some experience in how to make a human barbecue.

...

Why do the Blacks still lack even a semblance of an army? It's not like Viserys died yesterday, you can still hope for peace while gathering your troops. Freaking Stannis gathered more of an army and he didn't have more than a decade to prepare his faction for a possible civil war.

Scorecard for Team Black dragons at the moment:

Rhae and her dragon Syrax: Can't really be put out on the field because she's the queen. Aegon going out to battle and promptly getting wreckt shows that it would be foolish to send out the sovereign as anything but a move of last resort. 

Jace and his dragon Veramax: He offered to serve but Rhae didn't want him to go as the heir.

Daemon and his dragon Syrax: Currently in Harrenhall, with Daemon not being letting anyone know what he's doing, exactly. He's not exactly reliable in general. This is Daemon. This is Daemon on witchy drugs. Any questions? Also, even hypothetically if he were able to be in touch and were compliant, I'd argue holding down Harrenhall and trying to get control of the Riverlands is probably more important than what seems on the surface to be a relatively minor mission. Was here a reason to think that would be the place to deploy dragons at all?

Baela and her dragon Moondancer: She just got back from her sortie. She probably needs some rest.

I don't think any other dragons available to Team Black have competent riders who could be entrusted on a war sortie, even one that is supposed to be a milk run. Someone feel free to add any other dragons of fighting age with a rider and thus able to be deployed.

Also, one imagines that they want to keep dragons in reserve in case there's either a direct attack on Dragonstone or to break up the blockade on King's Landing. 

...

It actually is closer to Viserys having died yesterday than him having been dead for half a year or something. I think he has been dead for less than a month at this point. Again, someone who knows precisely how long he's been dead can say.

In any event, Team Black just got caught with its pants down. Rhae relied on being the named heir and the thought that everyone would bend the knee to her despite her being a g-g-girl. She underestimated the Greens and she's paying the price. The Greens not only seized power from under her nose but they imprisoned or killed a lot of people who would have kept their oaths. The other great houses have been tryng to decide who to line up with, and it stands to reason that if you're going to declare for one side or the other, you probably should side with Team Green.

1. Team Green actually has the crown, the crown's purse and the crown's territory.

2. Team Green is better with the carrot to the extent that we've seen. (i.e. getting the Baratheons on their side by offering a marriage pact.)

3. Team Green is better with the stick (So far having killed a bunch of holdouts to Team Black having done none of that)

4. Team Green has  been working the publicity thing pretty well.

5. Aegon's got a dick

6. Jace is an obvious bastard.

7. Other than Rhaenys and excluding Rhae and Daemon, there does not seem to be half a brain among Rhae's small council. By contrast, it does not seem like there are any dummies among Team Green's small council beyond Aegon himself.  

I would guess that the amount of time that Stannis had to gather his forces was at least a couple months by the time we see him at the beginning of GOT S2. As soon as word came out that Joffrey was a bastard, he probably was making his moves. And it was probably at least a couple weeks that Ned was imprisoned before his execution, and on top of that some time between that and when Stannis was trying to get ready for his move. Beyond that Stannis probably had a standing relationship with various people as a veteran military commander who had been at war in the relatively recent past. Viserys had maintained peace for decades, and there would have been no reason for Rhae to be as skilled at mustering troops as Stannis. 

[CeeBeeGee]

3 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Looking at Alyn and Corlys together in that scene, seeing that they strongly resembled each other (shout out to the casting of the Hulls!), and seeing that Alyn shaved his head only to hide his parentage wasn't as smooth of a deceit as they thought it would be.  Rhaenys wasn't stupid; I'm sure she put 2+2 together really quickly once she learned of Alyn saving his father's life, which Corlys did keep from her.  

She was caressing his cheek--which said to me that maybe he had blond stubble and she saw it and the gig was up.

 

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Nice to hear more from Alys Rivers and hear the actress's Scottish accent. Last ep her one line sounded almost like an American accent, which was a bit weird.

The Scottish diaspora to the US in the wake of Culloden had a big influence on the Southern accent, especially in Virginia. You can hear the Scots sound especially in the vowels--how-oose (house) and abow-oot (about). The Virginia accent loves it some diphthongs.

[KBrownie]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I suppose it is possible that till now no one has tested the theory of whether you needed to have actual Targaryen DNA to ride a dragon. It could be that having the blood of Old Valyria is good enough. It could also be that just being bold enough to try to claim a dragon would suffice and the Targaryens have been engaging in some propaganda over the years to secure their authority. (I suppose it's possible that it just so happens that Corlys slept with a woman who was herself a Targaryen bastard, though one would think that the Hulls would be lighter-skinned.)

Corlys has, albeit probably a very small amount, some Targaryen blood, so his non-Rhaenys children could possibly bond with a dragon.  
 

The mother of the three original conquerors, Aegon and sister-wives Visenya and Rhaenys, was a Velaryon. Valaena Velaryon and Aerion Targaryen were the parents of the conquerors and then the son of the conquerors Rhaenys and Aegon also married a Velaryon, Alyssa. I couldn’t find which specific Velaryons Corlys descends from, but it makes sense that he may have some Targaryen, dragon riding blood to pass down to any children not with his Targaryen wife. 

Edited July 9 by KBrownie

[Oscirus]

The more I think about it and read other thoughts, the more I think that Rhaenys made a stupid sacrifice that served no one but the Greens in the end. She's the most experienced rider with Damon gone. She could've easily gotten away and lived to fight another day. 

Reading more of the history and knowing that Vhagar and Melys used to be besties when they were ridden by Rhaenyra's grandparents makes this a really tragic story.

[Roccos Brother]

I can't even begin to describe the satisfaction I got from watching Cole be thrown off his horse and completely humbled and devastated in the end. Oh yes, I would watch an entire spin off series where Cole is just repeatedly placed into a state of sadness. 😈

Edited July 9 by Roccos Brother

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

Oh yes, I would watch an entire spin off series where Cole is just repeatedly placed into a state of sadness. 😈

Like The Beast - but old Maurice never arrived until the rose died.

[mrspidey]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

 Nice to hear more from Alys Rivers and hear the actress's Scottish accent. Last ep her one line sounded almost like an American accent, which was a bit weird. Good to know they have homegrown witches in Westeros, since the only ones I recall from Thrones (Melisandre and Mirri Maz Duur) were both Essosi.

Don't forget Maggie the Frog, who gave Cersei the prophecy of all her children dying and made her all paranoid about Margery. That prophecy turned out to be quite impactful.

[baldryanr]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

(Half the king his father was would still be a pretty shitty king, since Viserys was a weak monarch who caused this mess almost as much as Otto did, by failing to rule the realm or manage his family properly.)

He was a perfectly average king.  Sure, perhaps his small council did most of the actual work (the Robert Baratheon model) but shutting up and staying the course isn't the worst option if your predecessor did all the hard work and left you a realm at peace.  His complete failure to manage his family is what caused this mess, and if he had a surviving son with Aemma then none of this would be happening.  But there wouldn't be much of a show if that was the case. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Rhae and her dragon Syrax: Can't really be put out on the field because she's the queen.

Of course she can, medieval kings led armies all the time, even without the benefit of riding giant fire-breathing lizards. It could be risky, sure but war is risky in general, especially when you still don't have a freaking army because you act slower than three-toed sloths. No one so much as suggested sending more than one dragon, even though they have previously discussed how their superiority in dragons is their greatest strength and that castle was supposedly very close to their base.

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Rhae relied on being the named heir and the thought that everyone would bend the knee to her despite her being a g-g-girl.

Which makes a terrible politician since many people in the show predicted the war as soon as a male heir was born. Also, feudal heirs who had been in that position for so long tended to have tons of supporters even if the succession was assured, Rhaenyra acting like she needs to start begging every House in Westeros to support her all over again after her father's death is complete nonsense, the faction lines should have been drawn years ago. Some lords would have hedged their bests of course or acted outraged once the Greens did their coup but most would have chosen a side a long time ago, either because they believe in the cause or because they were given a nice enough bribe.

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Viserys had maintained peace for decades, and there would have been no reason for Rhae to be as skilled at mustering troops as Stannis. 

You don't need skills for that, you just call your vassals to bring their levies, it's Feudalism 101. There is no indication that Team Sloth has done any of that, it's been weeks as Alicent said and they are literally wringing their hands whining about having no army.

[Dewey Decimate]

11 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But things were running fine in KL -- nothing suggested that between the Small Council and the Queen there were any greater-than-normal problems with Crispy being gone, until Aegon let his ego (just noticed you can't spell "Aegon" without "ego" right there in the center) get in the way.

 

And you can't spell Aemond without "emo" - hilarious! Don't know if you can get more goth than an eyepatch. Which it looked like changed when Aemond was in battle - I think it's normally black, but appeared to be a dark brown leather when he went to battle? (Didn't rewind to check, but I like the idea of Aemond having a tie rack full of fashion eyepatch selections. )

While I'm definitely more Team Black, if someone from Team Green has to rise, I must admit to loving Aemond. True, he borders on caricature, but he also displays enough nuance in his face to reveal another layer (ex. upon accidentally killing Luke, being found in the brothel by Aemon). I find his presence in a scene to be consistently compelling; he inhabits the role and always commands interest, for better or worse. (There was a recent NYT article on the actor, and it was acknowledged that his chin may have had something to do with being cast for the role. I'd believe it!)

8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

She was caressing his cheek--which said to me that maybe he had blond stubble and she saw it and the gig was up.

My thought during that scene was wondering if the carpet matches the drapes. Pubes don't lie!

[paigow]

24 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

And you can't spell Aemond without "emo" 

Larys ; fetish

 

[Uncle JUICE]

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The more I think about it and read other thoughts, the more I think that Rhaenys made a stupid sacrifice that served no one but the Greens in the end. She's the most experienced rider with Damon gone. She could've easily gotten away and lived to fight another day. 

Reading more of the history and knowing that Vhagar and Melys used to be besties when they were ridden by Rhaenyra's grandparents makes this a really tragic story.

Such a great point about her ability to escape and questions as to why she didn't. Her plan was to go support the castle by burning the siege engines and army; that it never occurred to her or anyone in the council that this is almost CERTAINLY a trap is kinda baffling. They certainly had no choice but to engage, I get that, otherwise they're cut off from the mainland entirely. But no one says "Hey, we know they know dragons strike from above, during the day, I mean we just sent Cole scurrying into the woods with armor full of terror turds. Why, then, do we think they're doing this during the day? Could it be to bait the queen into using a dragon, to what purpose...oh, wait, what if they're stashing a dragon in the woods? Maybe we should just send three dragons. Faster burning, more green casualties, I mean we don't have to send the queen, but they don't have the numbers to match Melys, Moondancer, and the other one. They're not sending Aegon to fight, and can Helaena fight on a dragon? THat would mean Vaghar, who's their only dragon defense of King's Landing. If Vaghar is outnumbered 3 - 1, wouldn't Aemond almost HAVE to retreat, simply to maintain the defense? Good plan Targs, let's bring it in, now on 3, let's hear Fire and Blood, hands in, yes, you too, Lord Alfred Talkstoomuch, one two three FIRE AND BLOOD! Ok, be safe out there guys."

Anyway once Rhaneys sees Vaghar, it seems like she should have done one more strafe run in the general direction of Dragonstone (east), then headed for the castle and the dragonmount. 

[BellyLaughter]

Not gonna lie… I find Aemond a fascinating villain…he’s in the same mold as Daemon - you know you should despise them but there’s something so damn compelling about both characters.  
 

RIP Rhaenys… a true warrior! 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Rhaenyra acting like she needs to start begging every House in Westeros to support her all over again after her father's death is complete nonsense, the faction lines should have been drawn years ago.

The Baratheons represent a segment of houses that see no value in history and sell their loyalty to the highest bidder. Not traitors per se. more like Undecided. 

[proserpina65]

14 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Is he the one who earned the moniker "Aegon the Unworthy"?

No.  Aegon the Unworthy is a few kings later.

[Uncle JUICE]

16 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

No.  Aegon the Unworthy is a few kings later.

His Grace, Aegon the Magnanimous Dragoncock. Put some respect on his damn name. 

[Dobian]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

1. Team Green actually has the crown, the crown's purse and the crown's territory.

 

Possession is nine-tenths.  Rhaenyra is the rightful heir but is now in the role of usurper. 

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I will surmise that Sunfyre shielded Aegon from most of the impact of the fall into the forest.

The trees could actually have helped break their fall as well.

13 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Also liked the detail of the blood from Sunfyre's wounds smoking as it hit the ground and doing even more injury to Aegon's army.

That was a cool detail.

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Why would Aemond be worried about witnesses? Between people being dazed or dead from the aftermath of the battle, to them being intimidated by Aemond's wealth and power, to Aemond just killing them too, the chances of him having to face any consequences for killing Aegon are small.

Plus I doubt many, if any, of the soldiers on the ground could even see the details of Vhagar's attack.  Sunfyre and Meleys were still entangled so I imagine to the people on the ground, Vhagar flaming Sunfyre looked entirely incidental to attacking Meleys.  I'd say Criston is the only one who suspects that it was intentional, and what is he going to say?

12 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

As far as how Aegon survived: the impression I got was that Sunfyre might have intentionally shielded him somewhat because he was still alive when he fell, as opposed to Meleys who was dead before she hit the ground.

It also looked to me like Sunfyre was able to twist his body and therefore not land on his back.  Meleys hit the ground on her back meaning there was no escape for her rider.

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

When you get outwitted by Criston "I am constantly confused" Cole,

He might be an asshole but there's been nothing suggesting he's confused either.  He was an excellent warrior, which is what got him the job as Kingsguard in the first place, and he's clearly smart about tactics.  Unlike pretty much anyone on the Black council who can't seem to figure out how to put together an army.

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why do the Blacks still lack even a semblance of an army? It's not like Viserys died yesterday, you can still hope for peace while gathering your troops.

Because Rhaenyra hadn't been planning for a war at all until after her father died, which has only been a few weeks, apparently.  A smart leader would've anticipated that the succession might not be smooth and been shoring up alliances with houses who could provide troops from the moment she fled to Dragonstone but Rhaenyra did nothing but sit around and assume those houses would honor a 20 year old oath.  Some did, obviously, but others were far more interested in either having a man on the throne or in what they could get out of pledging to one side or the other.  (Borros Baratheon, for example.)  The lords who are motivated by misogyny weren't going to be won over by her but the others could've been if she'd been proactive about trying to win their loyalty.

 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

They certainly had no choice but to engage, I get that, otherwise they're cut off from the mainland entirely. But no one says "Hey, we know they know dragons strike from above, during the day, I mean we just sent Cole scurrying into the woods with armor full of terror turds. Why, then, do we think they're doing this during the day? Could it be to bait the queen into using a dragon, to what purpose...oh, wait, what if they're stashing a dragon in the woods? Maybe we should just send three dragons.

I think for Rhaenyra it was about a little more than just being cut off from the mainland. I think Rhaenyra was starting to lose political capital. Her council had been urging her to act for some time now. The Greens’ army was already at Rook’s Rest, the seat of one of her council members. Other than Rhaenys, the only other best choice to send was Daemon but he was nowhere around. She wasn’t going to send Baela nor her son. Rhaenyra is the Queen, so she shouldn’t go. Rhaenys, unfortunately, was the most expandable at the moment.

Sure, it may have been a trap but I think she couldn’t afford not to send anyone and unfortunately for Rhaenyra, there weren’t many good options. It was a risk Rhaenyra had to take to keep the support of her council. They know the other side also has dragons. They knew the risks when they sent someone (which is why they urged Rhaenyra not to go), and they accepted those risks.

Edited July 9 by AntFTW

[Uncle JUICE]

Seems to me that retreating to Dragonstone and off the mainland was probably a mistake once she knew her father to be mortally ill. I get that it's her family seat, but it has no towns of note, very very few native resources that actual people can use to sustain themselves. Once she figured out her dad was basically about to disintegrate, she probably should have found a friendly house with whom to stay, close to the castle, so that when Viserys expired she was actually on the scene to disrupt the clutching and grasping Otto had coordinated. But, hindsight. 

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think for Rhaenyra is was about a little more than just being cut off from the mainland. I think Rhaenyra was starting to lose political capital. Her council had been urging her to act for some time now. The Greens’ army was already at Rook’s Rest, the seat of one of her council members. Other than Rhaenys, the only other best choice to send was Daemon but he was nowhere around. She wasn’t going to send Baela nor her son. Rhaenyra is the Queen, so she shouldn’t go. Rhaenys, unfortunately, was the most expandable at the moment.

Sure, it may have been a trap but I think she couldn’t afford not to send anyone and unfortunately for Rhaenyra, there weren’t many good options. It was a risk Rhaenyra had to take to keep the support of her council. They know the other side also has dragons. They knew the risks went they sent someone (which is why they urged Rhaenyra not to go), and they accepted those risks.

I agree with all of this, she had no choice but to send help, but my point is that it's not hard to arrive at the "Probably Vaghar will be there, so just to be safe, we're going to send enough dragons to have numbers." Which essentially means three, under Rhaenys' command, but that's not what they did. Why people with dragons are so shit at deploying them historically is confounding, and ends with Danaerys doing pretty much the same thing (though because of shit council).

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You don't need skills for that, you just call your vassals to bring their levies, it's Feudalism 101.

Except in this case, she needed to continue to cultivate those vassals to keep their loyalty and she basically ignored them.  Honestly, Rhaenyra's made an utter and complete mess of things so far.  Presumably that will not continue to be the case or the war will be over in the next episode.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Of course she can, medieval kings led armies all the time, even without the benefit of riding giant fire-breathing lizards.

We can only go by what councilors on both sides have said and they've all firmly come down on the side of "monarch should not be going to the battle themselves".  And we saw what can happen when they do.

[Oscirus]

I believe that green has the advantage now but once Daemon returns from his horror movie it will be a different story. Team green is still way too dependent on Vhagar being everywhere at once. Once Aemond's obsession leaves Harrenhall , Daemon will keep Vhagar occupied while team black makes numerous gains. 

Also I want to see what Jace is capable of, he seems to know his shit, but he's still inexperienced

[AntFTW]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

agree with all of this, she had no choice but to send help, but my point is that it's not hard to arrive at the "Probably Vaghar will be there, so just to be safe, we're going to send enough dragons to have numbers."

I understand that but my point is that I don't think she really had "numbers." Other than Rhaenys, I think the only person that it would have made sense to send was Daemon... and he wasn't there. Sending anyone in addition to Rhaenys of all of the available options, I think, would have been a liability.

Edited July 9 by AntFTW

[Jack Shaftoe]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Once she figured out her dad was basically about to disintegrate, she probably should have found a friendly house with whom to stay, close to the castle, so that when Viserys expired she was actually on the scene to disrupt the clutching and grasping Otto had coordinated. But, hindsight. 

The future Henry III of France rushed all the way from Poland once he heard that his brother the king was dead and the throne was up for grabs. His example is extreme, of course, but pretty much everyone knew that contested succession required quick and decisive actions, in order to avoid a prolonged succession crisisr. Rhaenyra doing nothing and not even having any agents in the capital to inform her of what's happening ASAP is typical Hollywood bad writing where nothing important seems to happen off-screen, so the characters always have to scramble and improvise rather than follow plans that were in place years ago. See also Rhaenyra only now looking for allies and everyone in Westeros only now picking a side rather than years ago.

32 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

He was an excellent warrior, which is what got him the job as Kingsguard in the first place, and he's clearly smart about tactics. 

Is he really? He couldn't have known that a dragon wouldn't attack long before his army reached the coast and set up a trap. Or that the Blacks wouldn't send all their dragons and kill all the Green dragons in a single battle. Many an excellent warriors are terrible military leaders and for all we know this trap was Aemond's plan anyway, so I was half-kidding when I said Criston set up a trap. It's just funny how they put a guy like Criston as Hand and army commander and the Blacks absolutely failed to take advantage despite having actual people who have commanded armies in the field in their ranks like Corlys and Daemon.

Quote

Except in this case, she needed to continue to cultivate those vassals to keep their loyalty and she basically ignored them. 

That's why you call your vassals and if they refuse, you punish them or at least know that they aren't on your team and plan accordingly. It's a relatively small island and Rhaenyra has dragons, they would need to be suicidal to rebel at this juncture. At least the lords that are on her council should have sent their own levies instead of whining how they don't have any army.

Quote

We can only go by what councilors on both sides have said and they've all firmly come down on the side of "monarch should not be going to the battle themselves". 

What would a councilor who is not a dragonrider know about dragonriding? Of course it's risky, as I said but considering how easy it was to kill a prince and almost kill Rhaenyra, hiding in a castle doesn't appear to be particularly safe either...

Edited July 9 by Jack Shaftoe

[iMonrey]

13 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

As far as how Aegon survived: the impression I got was that Sunfyre might have intentionally shielded him somewhat because he was still alive when he fell, as opposed to Meleys who was dead before she hit the ground.

That seems to be the prevailing guess/hand-wave. It doesn't account for the fiery explosion that could be seen miles away. If they wanted it to be believable Aegon could survive maybe they shouldn't have made it look like an atomic bomb went off.

While I got a kick out of Aegon's entourage bros playing at Kingsguarding, I later wondered if they might end up contributing to his eventual downfall, rather than just being there for comic relief. They're shit at their job and now Aegon is at his most vulnerable. We've already had an assassin infiltrate the Red Keep and murder the heir to the throne right under their noses, and the guards haven't exactly gotten any better.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, feudal heirs who had been in that position for so long tended to have tons of supporters even if the succession was assured, Rhaenyra acting like she needs to start begging every House in Westeros to support her all over again after her father's death is complete nonsense, the faction lines should have been drawn years ago.

It wasn't Rhaenyra acting like she needed to beg for their support.  It was many of the lords themselves, because there were quite a few who were/still are staying out of it until they see an advantage for themselves.  She actually SHOULD have been shoring up the support in the 20+ years since her father named her as heir rather than depending on them to honor their vow or, as in the case of some, their fathers' vows.  Not every house is the Starks.

26 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why people with dragons are so shit at deploying them historically is confounding,

Some of it is a result of Jaehaerys' long peaceful reign followed by Viserys' mostly peaceful one.  They don't have experience deploying dragons for war, and no one but Daemon and Aemond have spent much time studying history.

29 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Seems to me that retreating to Dragonstone and off the mainland was probably a mistake once she knew her father to be mortally ill.

It was a huge mistake from the moment she did it.  I get that she felt her children were unsafe in King's Landing, but she should've just sent them as wards to houses where they'd be safer, like she's doing now, and stayed in the capital herself.  She's relied entirely on vows made by lords who could've easily changed their minds once Viserys had sons and not continually strengthened her support.  She's actually terrible at this vital part of building alliances.

12 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Is he really? He couldn't have known that a dragon wouldn't attack long before his army reached the coast and set up a trap.

They were moving by night to specifically avoid dragon attacks, and very successfully at that, so I'd say he did know that.

13 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It's just funny how they put a guy like Criston as Hand and army commander and the Blacks absolutely failed to take advantage despite having actual people who have commanded armies in the field in their ranks like Corlys and Daemon.

Daemon was a shit leader in the Stepstones.  Corlys's experience is mostly naval which is relevant more to the blockade.  Plus, Rhaenyra has no army for either of them to command at this point.

I'm not saying Criston is a good Hand.  He's not.  But he has proven to be a good commander in the field and a good tactician.  The plan wasn't entirely Aemond's - we saw both of them involved in tactical discussions in episode one and Criston did contribute good suggestions.

 

18 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Rhaenyra doing nothing and not even having any agents in the capital to inform her of what's happening ASAP is typical Hollywood bad writing where nothing important seems to happen off-screen, s

It actually fits in perfectly with her character from very early on in the show.  She's spoiled and entitled and doesn't realize that she needs to be proactive until too damned late.  Otto, for all his many faults, was almost always one step ahead of the action because he knew he needed to be to get what he wanted.

[proserpina65]

It just dawned on me that this episode is the only occasion where the Conqueror's stupid dream served an actual purpose.  Rhaenyra is using it to convince herself that this war is about something besides sitting the Iron Throne.  It's not, really, since she's just as guilty of dividing the realm rather than uniting it as the other side is, but she needs it to tell herself she's on the side of right.

[AntFTW]

44 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Why people with dragons are so shit at deploying them historically is confounding, and ends with Danaerys doing pretty much the same thing (though because of shit council).

5 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Some of it is a result of Jaehaerys' long peaceful reign followed by Viserys' mostly peaceful one.  They don't have experience deploying dragons for war, and no one but Daemon and Aemond have spent much time studying history.

Also, as far as we've seen, Daemon is the only one that has used his dragon in war, the war in the Stepstones... but he isn't available at the moment.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

(There was a recent NYT article on the actor, and it was acknowledged that his chin may have had something to do with being cast for the role. I'

Ewan Mitchell did not say his chin might have had something to do with being cast in the role.  He said it's probably why people have recognized him since season one aired.

 

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, as far as we've seen, Daemon is the only one that has used his dragon in war, the war in the Stepstones.

Laenor did as well, but obviously he's not available either.

[AntFTW]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:29 AM, proserpina65 said:

Daemon was a shit leader in the Stepstones.  Corlys's experience is mostly naval which is relevant more to the blockade.  Plus, Rhaenyra has no army for either of them to command at this point.

The Vale and The North are sending some men, right?

Are they on the way and just haven't gotten there yet?

Edited July 10 by AntFTW

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

The Vale and The North are sending some men, right?

Are they on the way and just haven't gotten their yet?

My sense is that they have only pledged their loyalty and have not actually mobilized any men. It is, as we know from GOT, a long way from the North to King's Landing, so I don't even know if it would make sense to have Northmen head south at this or any foreseeable juncture without first securing the Riverlands, which is what Daemon is in his Daemonesque way trying to do now.

The Vale's support was conditional on having a dragon assigned to protect the Vale. I believe they were only just now sending a baby dragon there, so I would assume no one is marching from the Vale as of yet.

[paigow]

19 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Daemon was a shit leader in the Stepstones. 

Eventually, he won that battle by himself...😄

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

The Vale and The North are sending some men, right?

Are they on the way and just haven't gotten their yet?

They've promised men.  Lady Jeyne Arryn is probably awaiting the promised dragon before sending any troops from the Vale and the North is so far from the Crownlands that those men might as well be in Essos for all practical purposes.  Right now, Rhaenyra basically has whatever men are at Dragonstone and Driftmark.

[Uncle JUICE]

10 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Also, as far as we've seen, Daemon is the only one that has used his dragon in war, the war in the Stepstones... but he isn't available at the moment.

This is true technically, but was he any good at deploying that dragon? The war there lasted for three years! I feel like if you gave me the only dragon on the board in any battle, especially with a navy to back it up, I should be able to burn every living soul off the stepstones in a weekend. Bored? Let me wait until nightfall, drop down to this complex of caves I saw earlier in the day, and just blast a bunch of fire in there, then take off and come back tomorrow. 

I am ready for my seat on the small council now. 

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

Eventually, he won that battle by himself...😄

Daemon don't need no army! 😁

[aghst]

I get that Damon screwed up with the assassination plot and fell out with Raynera.

But it's so convenient that he takes himself off the chessboard as Green makes its move.

He wanted to take action vs. Black but now he's just drinking potions and chasing ghosts while the world burns.

I guess if he teamed up with Rhaenys they'd have won the dragon dance?

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, aghst said:

I guess if he teamed up with Rhaenys they'd have won the dragon dance?

Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.  Because Daemon is busy being the entitled ass he is.

[Uncle JUICE]

Just now, proserpina65 said:

Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.  Because Daemon is busy being the entitled ass he is.

Daemon gets waaaaaay too much love in my house from Mrs. Juice. I don't get why, I can't figure out what he's doing to be so enthralling. To me he just seems like, as you point out, an entitled ass, with very little bona fides for it. Remember when he was running the city watch? What a shit show. 

[aghst]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.  Because Daemon is busy being the entitled ass he is.

I'm just speculating that that is the reason why the book and/or the show has him out of commission while all this other action was occurring, to delay the really big battles instead of make a quick war.

If they take out Vhagar early, the war doesn't last too long.

[proserpina65]

13 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Daemon gets waaaaaay too much love in my house from Mrs. Juice. I don't get why, I can't figure out what he's doing to be so enthralling. To me he just seems like, as you point out, an entitled ass, with very little bona fides for it. Remember when he was running the city watch? What a shit show. 

I don't get the appeal either, but I try not to judge too much since I'm absolutely ride or die for Aemond to the very end.

12 minutes ago, aghst said:

I'm just speculating that that is the reason why the book and/or the show has him out of commission while all this other action was occurring, to delay the really big battles instead of make a quick war.

If they take out Vhagar early, the war doesn't last too long.

There probably is a lot of truth in that.  Although I do think the Riverlands are the key to Rhaenyra being able to field enough of an army to make a difference so the idea of trying to win support there is sound.  It's just the way Daemon is going about it which is so cray-cray.

[paigow]

18 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Daemon gets waaaaaay too much love in my house from Mrs. Juice. I don't get why

She sees Dr. Who beneath his asshole outer layer....