S01.E09: Sweet Justice

[DanaK]

Quote

After hearing his favorite patron talk about being bullied mercilessly in college, the charismatic owner of an exclusive cocktail bar (Arian Moayed) decides to seek revenge on her behalf, but his desire for justice leads to a deadly mistake, leaving Elsbeth and Kaya to connect the dots. Meanwhile, after learning that the DOJ investigation is close to an indictment, Elsbeth and Captain Wagner join forces to expose the real criminal, on ELSBETH, Thursday, May 16 (10:00-11:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network, and streaming on Paramount+ 

 

[AnimeMania]

Arian Moayed as Joe Dillion
Paula Singer as Ivy Benson
Danny Mastrogiorgio as Detective Smullen

[AnimeMania]

And yes, it does sound like "smellin", and yes, he does stink, literally, and at his job.

[EtheltoTillie]

Uh oh. Captain Wendell P is trying to get rid of Elsbeth. What will happen?  

Good episode but they got through the COTW too abruptly in order to have time to resolve the corruption plot. 

Edited May 17 by EtheltoTillie

[Tara]

I was hoping this would be one episode where Elsbeth fails, but the perp learns his lesson. I really liked Joe. 😀

[shapeshifter]

The COTW and the Killer Of The Week were the most Columbo-esque yet, which worked perfectly in its We-Saw-That-Coming simplicity to allow the viewers to follow the plot of the season-long arc.

[sugarbaker design]

5 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Good episode but they got through the COTW

 

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The COTW

Sorry for my stupidity, but COTW = Crime of The Week?

[SomeTameGazelle]

5 hours ago, Tara said:

I was hoping this would be one episode where Elsbeth fails, but the perp learns his lesson. I really liked Joe. 😀

I didn't like the way Joe treated Dion and although they let us see him as Ivy's defender at the beginning by the end they had filled in enough information to confirm that he was taking things too far in order to be "the hero" and was making Ivy uncomfortable with his attentions. She looked very reluctant when he asked her out. That said, Gemma Nelson was portrayed as so derangedly unpleasant that I did wonder in the middle of the ep whether they were going to frame her for the crime and address Joe's flaws some other way.

I was disappointed that they wrapped up the Captain's issue so quickly and neatly and that he turned against Elsbeth who had eagerly helped him to take down the lieutenant. I assume it's just so that we have some suspense wondering how Elsbeth will carry on and especially whether she will be able to work with Kara, but I feel like we missed a step. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

was disappointed that they wrapped up the Captain's issue so quickly and neatly and that he turned against Elsbeth who had eagerly helped him to take down the lieutenant. I assume it's just so that we have some suspense wondering how Elsbeth will carry on and especially whether she will be able to work with Kara, but I feel like we missed a step. 

Perhaps the finale will give us a new puzzle for Elsbeth (and Kaya) to solve?

Or maybe the finale has Elsbeth decide to hang her own PI shingle in the Big Apple?  
(And the Kaya-Elsbeth sisterhood can still continue, as they cross paths at crime scenes.)

Or someone above the Captain will proclaim that Elsbeth is going to stay on as a consultant for the NYPD, which the Captain will begrudgingly accept, and likely warm up to over time.

 

9 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Sorry for my stupidity, but COTW = Crime of The Week?

That fits too, but typically:
COTW = Case Of The Week

Edited May 18 by shapeshifter

[mammaM]

I'm glad about the Captain but now he doesn't like our girl? I'm getting whiplash with this "like the Captain/don't like the captain".

And I don't know if anyone else has mentioned, but on directv this is listed as episode 11 and next week is episode 10. Huh?

Edited May 17 by mammaM
Spelling

[ItCouldBeWorse]

13 hours ago, Tara said:

I was hoping this would be one episode where Elsbeth fails, but the perp learns his lesson. I really liked Joe. 😀

Except that he really didn't care at all about his completely innocent victim.

 

By the way, it's "Kaya", not "Kara".

[Bulldog]

Jane wanted a New York experience. I’d say she got one. 
 

[Eindestand]

Julie Ann Emery and Deborah S. Craig were on again.
Will Katricia and Shusie be continually recurring characters?
Or are we to believe they're overly pretentious people, who would naturally gravitate toward such a place?

I gotta say, I am getting rather fed-up with all the pretentiousness and extravagent pricing of things on telly.
Honestly, while $500 baby shoes is completely mad (do they come with free bronzing?), an $80 cocktail is even more so.
It's likely a means to give them plausible deniability, so they can say they like to taste all the interesting things Joe puts in the drinks, when they're really using them as a deburring tool, just like the regular folk do.

OMG. Joe expedites things by spilling his guts in front of the cops. It was mega clunky, but Joe knew they needed to wrap it, so they could finally reveal the Capt. as the good guy we already knew he was (no way were they gonna write off a Wendell Pierce so early in the run).

During the stakeout, the Capt. looks at Elsbeth and she shrugs after Armstrong complains about underhanded dealings across the city being brought into view. Are we to believe that was all due to Elsbeth? Her shrug appeared as though she acknowledged it.

The final scene was odd.
I was taken aback by them suddenly portraying the Capt. as being stupid. It goes completely against character.
To do such a thing means they are obviously up to something.
I've pictured him as being intelligent enough to see past the deception and that Elsbeth was just doing her job.
She didn't know the Capt. and was there on assignment.
When she realised the Capt. was not the bad man Celetano said he might be, she decided to help the Capt.
This was so very odd and it made the Capt. seem very superficial.
I reckon, it'll all come out in next week's wash.

[Yeah No]

I do love this show but I have to say it annoys me that Elsbeth meets the murderer and suspects them within the first 5-10 minutes of the episode every week.  I'd like to see her evolve into her suspicions in a more realistic way sometimes.  She couldn't possibly meet the murderer and already suspect them that soon every time.  I realize that this is only an hour episode but it often happens that way on other shows and her already knowing that so soon takes away any opportunity for suspense that we could possibly have.  At least make it look possible that she might not yet be on the right track sometimes.  

I agree with the post above that they wrapped up the captain's plot a little too quickly and neatly.  It felt a little anti-climactic.  I never thought the captain would be found guilty of any of it.  He's too important as a character for that to happen.  And him turning against Elsbeth felt like a forced plot twist.  A little too convenient just to give us one more thing to worry about which we know will be resolved.  And again, no great suspense there either. 

I say all that and yet I still love the show, lol.

[possibilities]

I know what you mean-- it's very contrived. I think Columbo was the same way-- not really based on suspense. More of a character than plot-driven show. I enjoy it, but I can't say I think it's realistic.

Columbo did create some tension now and then, using things like weapons (not usually guns) and speed (an occasional car chase).  But it was mostly pacved very gently, without a lot of high intensity. The scenes breathed-- a lot.

I think we are used to tv being extremely tension-based these days; everything moves faster than it used to, and we are supposed to be running on adrenaline a large percentage of the time.

I think they are experimenting with trying to make this show less exciting and more... wry? Like, this week's murderer would rather go to prison than give up his delusion about "getting the girl". And the person he meant to murder (but didn't) was so unlikable that you almost wish he'd actually gotten her (and her boyfriend being with her at all seemed inexplicable, almost a parody in itself-- and him leaving her was a relief because it showed he wasn't completely out of his mind).

The villains on this show are actually a little more extremely obvious-- I'd almost say parodies of villains at this point-- which I think makes Elsbeth catching on to them more understandable, while having the cops miss them is less so-- but I also think we're supposed to laugh at this show more than we were supposed to laugh at Columbo. 

I really didn't understand the Captain's behavior this episode. If he's really not corrupt, then why is he so upset about having a corruption investigator around? If he's really an honest and humble person, why did his ego flare up like that? Why isn't he more grateful to Elsbeth? 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

The villains on this show are actually a little more extremely obvious-- I'd almost say parodies of villains at this point-- which I think makes Elsbeth catching on to them more understandable, while having the cops miss them is less so-- but I also think we're supposed to laugh at this show more than we were supposed to laugh at Columbo. 

I really didn't understand the Captain's behavior this episode. If he's really not corrupt, then why is he so upset about having a corruption investigator around? If he's really an honest and humble person, why did his ego flare up like that? Why isn't he more grateful to Elsbeth? 

The comparisons to Columbo make it hard for us to adjust to a small difference between the shows.  It's more confusing because of that comparison.  If we're supposed to laugh more at this show that should be more obvious to us.  If it's satire it should be more obvious that it is otherwise I don't know how I'm supposed to react.  At times the show seems to be more of a satire and at times it seems to want us to take it seriously but I'm not sure.

And true, if the captain has nothing to hide then why would he be hung up on being able to trust Elsbeth and having her unconditional allegiance?  That's something Elsbeth would notice and be suspicious of herself.  I wonder if that's coming next.

[Johannah]

Realistic or not (and frankly, I don't necessarily watch TV for realism), I enjoyed how they wrapped the case up.  It was fun.

I'm also glad they wrapped up the Captain's corruption case.  I didn't enjoy that whole storyline, so they could have just had a footnote and said, "Captain's innocent, bad guys caught, now back to the fun stuff.". I don't care if it seemed rushed, I'm just glad it's over.

I also understand the Captain being upset with Elsbeth, unfounded as it was.  I think he'll realize, maybe with his wife's help, that she was just doing her job.  Just like many undercover jobs he had/supervised.

 

[SoMuchTV]

16 hours ago, Yeah No said:

At least make it look possible that she might not yet be on the right track sometimes.  

Haha, I must be just the kind of gullible viewer they’re hoping for. When they started going into all the reasons the evidence actually pointed to assistant bartender, not just head bartender, I thought, hey! They’re actually switching things up a bit!  For about 20 seconds, anyway. 

Edited May 19 by SoMuchTV
Left out a word

[zapper]

21 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I do love this show but I have to say it annoys me that Elsbeth meets the murderer and suspects them within the first 5-10 minutes of the episode every week.  I'd like to see her evolve into her suspicions in a more realistic way sometimes.  She couldn't possibly meet the murderer and already suspect them that soon every time. 

I started a game a few episodes ago called "does she know yet?" as I try to figure out at what point she has the murderer identified.

[shapeshifter]

21 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I do love this show but I have to say it annoys me that Elsbeth meets the murderer and suspects them within the first 5-10 minutes of the episode every week. 

Some people  are good judges of character. I see Elsbeth being like that, and Columbo too.

both of them have found jobs that allow them to “size people up” for a living.

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

The villains on this show are actually a little more extremely obvious-- I'd almost say parodies of villains at this point-- which I think makes Elsbeth catching on to them more understandable, while having the cops miss them is less so--

Yes. This too. Both on the show and in real life — some villains are just obvious.

Perhaps next season we’ll see some more clever villains that Elsbeth does not identify  so easily or so quickly.

[Yeah No]

59 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Some people  are good judges of character. I see Elsbeth being like that, and Columbo too.

both of them have found jobs that allow them to “size people up” for a living.

I'm a good judge of character too, but the villain isn't even on screen for 20 seconds and she already has them pegged?  That's a little too fast for me.  And the fact that they would even be right in front of her that fast every single time is also a little unbelievable.  I get it that it's just a TV show but it's getting a little repetitive and so that to me doesn't feel realistic enough.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes. This too. Both on the show and in real life — some villains are just obvious.

Some villains, yes, but every single villain in every episode?  And them being that obvious makes it even more unbelievable that the cops don't catch on quickly either.  They're not that stupid, especially not in NYC.

[chitowngirl]

Sometimes the villain says or does something that puts them on Elsbeth’s radar….

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Isn't there still a consent decree in place? Was it just a ruse to investigate the Captain? How does he have the authority to tell Elsbeth she needs to go?

I know that not everyone has access to Peacock, but Poker Face solves the problem of the protagonist always figuring out who the guilty party is by giving her the super power of knowing when someone is lying. Not every person who lies is also a murderer, but her awareness of all the lies gets her to the solution of the crime. Although it certainly has moments of humor, Poker Face is much grittier than Elsbeth.

[Yeah No]

10 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Isn't there still a consent decree in place? Was it just a ruse to investigate the Captain? How does he have the authority to tell Elsbeth she needs to go?

I know that not everyone has access to Peacock, but Poker Face solves the problem of the protagonist always figuring out who the guilty party is by giving her the super power of knowing when someone is lying. Not every person who lies is also a murderer, but her awareness of all the lies gets her to the solution of the crime. Although it certainly has moments of humor, Poker Face is much grittier than Elsbeth.

Your first sentence is making me wonder whether the whole captain plot was a ruse to test Elsbeth's ethics and his adopting a negative attitude toward her was to throw her off from figuring that out.  Although that wouldn't explain any punishment of the true villain in that situation.  

Your second paragraph is reminding me of Deanna Troi on "Star Trek: Next Generation".  She was supposed to be part alien and had super empathy that could sense people's true motivations.  It made you buy it that she could figure people out so well so fast.  I don't have a problem with Elsbeth having good instincts, but it just seems a little too fast and out of nowhere so it comes off a bit contrived for me.  I have not seen in every case where the villain says or does something that would make her jumping to her conclusions plausible.  Was it something in his or her eyes?  Their arrogance?  Their over-interest in the case?  The way they phrased something?   In some cases it feels like they haven't had the time to reveal any of that before Elsbeth is already on to them.

That said, I figured out which house a couple was going to pick on "Lottery Dream Home" once just by the way the wife reacted to the host in one house.  She said, "and now we have one" to his comment about that particular house having a dining room.  I'm pretty sure not too many people figured that one out, LOL.  My husband thought I was a genius when they picked the house I thought they were going to pick.  When he asked me how I knew and I told him he was amazed, LOL.  

[shapeshifter]

I was surprised to find a 2008 scientific study of “The Good Judge of Personality: Characteristics, Behaviors, and Observer Accuracy”
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2597833

I had figured at least part of my propensity for accurately sizing up a person is the result of drawing and painting portraits for over half a century. But maybe (probably?) not.

More likely, it seems for me and Elsbeth and Columbo and Patrick on The Mentalist, it’s mostly observing how someone verbally responds and their body language.

Regardless, I’m not bothered by Elsbeth figuring it out so quickly, because the writers, actors, directors, camera operators, sound and film editors show us what she sees in that moment — which is something she’s looking for.
And terrific casting of the villains!

It is formulaic, but that’s okay, because then it becomes a How To Prove It, with a big helping of How To Get The Perp To Tip Their Hand — which is a bit repetitive in general, but varies a lot specifically.

Edited May 19 by shapeshifter

[Yeah No]

14 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I had figured at least part of my propensity for accurately sizing up a person is the result of drawing and painting portraits for over half a century. But maybe (probably?) not.

More likely, it seems for me and Elsbeth and Columbo and Patrick on The Mentalist, it’s mostly observing how someone verbally responds and their body language.

I learned young how to size people up quickly and accurately growing up in the Bronx where trusting the wrong person could cost you your lunch money, your virginity or your life.  My mother was good at that and I learned from her.  But I was also given that gift too which is one reason why I studied Psychology.  And I agree that it's mostly body language. 

That said, we don't get the opportunity on this show to figure out who the villain is ourselves.  If they even gave us 5 whole minutes before showing us maybe we could.  Maybe that bothers me because I find that the process of trapping the villain feels a little too obvious and contrived on this show.  It might not have felt quite so on "Columbo" although I've only watched one or two episodes of that in the past few decades so I don't really remember.

[possibilities]

For me, watching Columbo, what I loved was that it was the arrogance of privilege that undid most of the perps -- the villains were always people who were arrogant enough to believe they would not be suspected, and that theyw ere superior to Columbo, who they pegged as a sloppy, low class, incompetent. He would buddy up to them, acting like he was just a doddering fool who wanted their insight, and they would take the bait, or dismiss him with irritation, and in the meanwhile he would catch them giving themselves away with inconsistencies, lies, or other clues.

Elsbeth is employing the same device but in a different way. People think she's annoying and the female equivalent (ditzy, rather than sloppy), and they do the same thing with making the villains arrogant and privileged people enacting crimes of entitlement rather than passion.

It's not a show where you can enjoy it if you watch it for the fun of solving the mystery, because there is no mystery at all. They deliberately give you the info right in the first scenes. The pleasure is not the puzzle, but seeing the arrogant people being taken down by someone they underestimate, and seeing the privileged people not get away with their crimes. It's kind of an underdog story, but the underdog is actually just playacting her underdog status-- she's supposed to represent for people who have been underestimated or snubbed by stuck up people who think they are better than others, when actually they're worse.

It's also a cop show that doesn't rely on guns and violence, hacking or DNA. Columbo/Elsbeth solves it with her brains, not brawn or tech. They don't even really have chase scenes. That was the other thing about Columbo (not so much Elsbeth)-- he was a blue collar hero in a white collar world. Elsbeth is a female hero who uses stereotypes about women ("she's annoying, clumsy and an airhead, but harmless, just ignore her") in a similar way.

I agree it's unrealistic. But most of these shows are unrealistic, just using different devices. Whether they are fun to watch depends on whether the viewer finds the particular devices anjoyable, I'm thinking.

 

[Yeah No]

If you're telling me all this, I already get all that.  But I think this show is different things to different people.  I don't mind knowing who the murderer is and how they committed it if the rest of it felt satisfying to me.  At times it accomplishes that for me but in episodes like this one I find it less than satisfying.  I think for me that's more about how the show is done rather than what is being done. 

Wikipedia says this about Columbo: 

Quote

The mystery and fun for viewers is trying to spot the clues that will lead Lt. Columbo (Peter Falk) to discover the culprit and watching the tricks he uses to get a confession. 

So Columbo was not just about seeing arrogant people get their comeuppance and was likely constructed so the audience could engage in the above, although I really don't remember.  In this episode of "Elsbeth", the most arrogant and detestable person of all was not the murderer but the woman that owned the apartment where the murder took place.  In fact the murderer, although arrogant enough, was quite beloved for taking care of the people he cared about.  So while he deserved what he got it didn't feel quite as satisfying for me to see him get his own "sweet justice".  In his mind he was doing something good for someone he cared for.  As creepy, wrong and detestable what he did was, the show actually made me even more invested in seeing Gemma get sent away for 20-30 just for being a horrible person!

So I think that's part of what was bothering me this week in addition to finding some of the other stuff re: Elsbeth knowing who the murderer is within 5 minutes a little contrived and quick.  I suppose if there weren't other things bothering me that wouldn't bother me as much.

[possibilities]

It's true that this week's murderer was not the usual privileged person, but he was the kind of guy who treats women like prizes to be won, and was clearly making the woman he "did the murder for" uncomfortable. I like that they showed that people who behave like that are not just innocent romantics, but actually it is a form of arrogance, that he tells himself he's a protector, without the woman's consent and in fact to her horror.

I watched all of Columbo over the past year or so and I can't speak for anyone else, but I never really followed along looking for clues. I just let him take me along for the ride. So I can't even say whether that show made the puzzle pieces accessible to viewers outside of Columbo finding them. I recall that sometimes I was surprised by how he did things, because there were things he set up to expose the killer, and we didn't see what the game was until the trap was sprung.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to like the show. I agree it's flawed, and I can understand why someone wouldn't enjoy it. I personally do like it, but I don't think that's a thing that people need to agree about, at all.

Edited May 20 by possibilities
typos

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to like the show. I agree it's flawed, and I can understand why someone wouldn't enjoy it.

I don’t see flaws in the show, but not everyone is going to like it.

Before the first episode aired, there were quite a few posts from potential viewers who didn’t like Elsbeth on The Good Wife or on The Good Fight. So this is not likely the show for them.

There are a lot of popular, high quality shows I can’t watch. But I have no problem with this show.

It helps that I’m a pushover for a great wardrobe.

Edited May 20 by shapeshifter

[possibilities]

I have massive totebag envy.

I see flaws in a lot of things. Doeesn't stop me from liking a lot of them, though. Same applies to people IRL! We're all works in progress.

Edited May 20 by possibilities

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I have massive totebag envy.

I see flaws in a lot of things. Doeesn't stop me from liking a lot of them, though. Same applies to people IRL! We're all works in progress.

Same here but I still think it's OK for me to not like things about a show that I basically like.  I never said I didn't like the show.  We all have complaints about things we basically like and should feel free to air them here.

My husband watches this show with me.  I asked him if anything bothered him about it so far and he mentioned the lack of suspense but also said he thought some of the motives for murder were a little out there and that the show seems to push to resolve the plot more quickly every week.  I can't disagree with that either.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Same here but I still think it's OK for me to not like things about a show that I basically like.  I never said I didn't like the show.  We all have complaints about things we basically like and should feel free to air them here.

My husband watches this show with me.  I asked him if anything bothered him about it so far and he mentioned the lack of suspense but also said he thought some of the motives for murder were a little out there and that the show seems to push to resolve the plot more quickly every week.  I can't disagree with that either.

TL;DR version of my post:
Suspense, schmuspense.

I would have probably agreed with all of this a few years ago, but some age-related issues have since made me appreciate a show where I don't have to pay too much attention to the plot and can just take in the clothes and purses. 

Or maybe it's just that I used to watch favorite shows twice
— which made up for my life-long distractibility
— and now, with grandkids, I often can't be bothered to give a lot of attention to my shows
— although my posting history here says otherwise, LOL.

On the third hand, I think there are too many unknowns in my life right now, so suspense in a TV plot is not particularly fun the way it used to be.

Have any of you tried watching the old Perry Mason episodes lately?
Sheesh are they complicated!
And there wasn't any DVRing when they came out. 
If you were lucky, you'd catch it again on a summer rerun.

 

Edited May 20 by shapeshifter

[chitowngirl]

My husband and I like to shout out and point to things that will come into play later in the episode or in the season story arc.

I love that Elsbeth still carries all the totes even though she has a permanent residence!

[Quark]

This show is really coming into it's stride.

 

[possibilities]

11 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I still think it's OK for me to not like things about a show that I basically like.

I think we are agreeing. I get the feeling you thought I was saying otherwise, but I didn't think I was. Apologies if I've been confusing in how I've said things. 

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Suspense, schmuspense.

This is where I am, too, personally. I also appreciate the lack of violence. After the murder, there is really not a lot of blood and gore-- and even the murders are fairly quiet compared to a lot of shows which have wanton shooting, blood and screaming and close ups of people with eyes popping out and so on. It's simply a less noisy, less gross. The disgust is more moral than visceral.

I watch some other shows that are more graphic, but I like that this show takes a different approach.

 

 

[txhorns79]

On 5/17/2024 at 6:47 AM, Tara said:

I really liked Joe. 😀

I mean, wasn't he kind of a complete psycho? 

[jabRI]

I have ADOORRED Gloria Ruben for ages, and I just have to say that this taking a back seat kind of wife role is not playing for me, I think she's up to something.  Just putting that out there. 

[mammaM]

2 hours ago, jabRI said:

I have ADOORRED Gloria Ruben for ages, and I just have to say that this taking a back seat kind of wife role is not playing for me, I think she's up to something.  Just putting that out there. 

I thought that also! 

[EtheltoTillie]

I think that Columbo no less than Elsbeth knew who the killer was early on, but they showed his unraveling the answer more slowly.  A lot of Columbo episodes were 90 minutes!

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, jabRI said:

I have ADOORRED Gloria Ruben for ages, and I just have to say that this taking a back seat kind of wife role is not playing for me, I think she's up to something.  Just putting that out there. 

5 hours ago, mammaM said:

I thought that also! 

And I've posted my vague suspicions about the captain's wife too.
3 of us can't be wrong, can we?
More to the point: They've been subtly dropping hints. I think mostly in her few line deliveries, but also just because she's very involved in her charity, and the charity seems to be suss. 

 

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I think that Columbo no less than Elsbeth knew who the killer was early on, but they showed his unraveling the answer more slowly.  A lot of Columbo episodes were 90 minutes!

Excellent point! And that's without commercials, right? 
Wikipedia says some were as long as 98 minutes!

Today an hour episode is 42 minutes.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

I agree with your point about Captain's wife, @shapeshifter.  They've been hinting. 

[shapeshifter]

Just now, EtheltoTillie said:

I agree with your point about Captain's wife, @shapeshifter.  They've been hinting. 

Ooo! Maybe the Captain's wife is just involved in something illegal but she's not immoral, and Elsbeth can use her lawyer skills to disentangle her, thereby winning over the Grinch's Captain's heart too.

Or something along those lines.
Pure speculation based upon what we've seen. 
I'm spoiler-free.

[possibilities]

It's a bad look for the captain, though, for him to be made a fool of by both is wife and his "right hand man". How do you run a detective squad if you are a terrible judge of character and kind of a fool? I wonder if the show would humiliate him in that way.

Edited May 22 by possibilities

[sugarbaker design]

21 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I think that Columbo no less than Elsbeth knew who the killer was early on, but they showed his unraveling the answer more slowly.  A lot of Columbo episodes were 90 minutes!

That show was so good!  Unlike Elsbeth, Columbo had a most serious tone.  There was a much longer initial segment concerning murderer and murdered. Sometimes our intrepid detective didn't enter the scene unitl 20 minutes after the opening.  There was also a high ratio of second murders, mostly blackmailers.

Edited May 23 by sugarbaker design

[Tara]

On 5/21/2024 at 5:24 PM, txhorns79 said:

On 5/17/2024 at 6:47 AM, Tara said:

I really liked Joe. 😀

I mean, wasn't he kind of a complete psycho? 

Yeah, but I did add, he learns his lesson. 😂😂😂

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/19/2024 at 11:28 PM, possibilities said:

I have massive totebag envy.

I saw a tote bag I envied yesterday. A young woman was carrying a black tote bag with giant white letters that said "This Is My Museum Tote Bag."

[snarktini]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:39 AM, Eindestand said:

Julie Ann Emery and Deborah S. Craig were on again.
Will Katricia and Shusie be continually recurring characters?
Or are we to believe they're overly pretentious people, who would naturally gravitate toward such a place?

Last week the Lavish Ladies billboard, this week they're at the bar! And before that, callbacks at her party. I love how they're leaning into the in-universe stuff.

I doubt we'll see them all the time it totally tracks that they'd gravitate towards a trendy place with expensive drinks. Keeping my eyes peeled for more easter eggs.

On 5/18/2024 at 7:26 AM, possibilities said:

I really didn't understand the Captain's behavior this episode. If he's really not corrupt, then why is he so upset about having a corruption investigator around? If he's really an honest and humble person, why did his ego flare up like that? Why isn't he more grateful to Elsbeth? 

It feels off, him being so cold and dismissive plus the case just *poof* being resolved. There's more to this -- a secondary thing about to happen, or he has another agenda here.

I can see why he'd feel betrayed but truly she was only investigating, and there was really good reason to suspect him. She had an open mind the whole time.

On 5/19/2024 at 8:13 AM, shapeshifter said:

It is formulaic, but that’s okay, because then it becomes a How To Prove It, with a big helping of How To Get The Perp To Tip Their Hand — which is a bit repetitive in general, but varies a lot specifically.

Most shows are formulaic, this is just a different way of being formulaic than the standard red-herring-driven crime shows. My nervous system enjoys getting to watch the solving of the puzzle. The process is the point, not the answer. I prefer it this way!

The part that's repetitive to me is how all of them know she's on to them but they  don't panic, they don't run, they don't lawyer up. They just stare her in the eye like a lawyer sparring in court rather than a someone who is about to lose their freedom. It's like they relish the challenge. That said, I don't mind this at all. The whole show is a bit on the fantasy side and that's fine by me.

[possibilities]

The perps were arrogant like that with Columbo, too. I think it's social commentary on how the wealthy, privileged, never-been-held-accountable types the show goes after, are just convinced they are smarter than everyone, and will never be held accountable for anything. Rules do not apply!

[tkc]

On 5/18/2024 at 7:26 AM, possibilities said:

I know what you mean-- it's very contrived. I think Columbo was the same way-- not really based on suspense. More of a character than plot-driven show. I enjoy it, but I can't say I think it's realistic.

Columbo did create some tension now and then, using things like weapons (not usually guns) and speed (an occasional car chase).  But it was mostly pacved very gently, without a lot of high intensity. The scenes breathed-- a lot.

I think we are used to tv being extremely tension-based these days; everything moves faster than it used to, and we are supposed to be running on adrenaline a large percentage of the time.

I first read the term cozy mystery a couple of years ago, and this show largely fits the definition. Here's what PBS Masterpiece says about the genre:

"There’s no strict definition for the cozy mystery, though the main rule of thumb seems to be that the story contains no graphic violence and generally, no swearing or sex. These are more lighthearted crime narratives—you won’t be so disturbed that you need to sleep with lights on. A focus on plot and character development ensures a predictable and reassuring experience offering escapism without being too heavy.

"Importantly, the cozy mystery’s protagonist is an amateur sleuth who uses intellect and life experience to solve a case. Think Agatha Christie’s Miss Marple. These affable amateur detectives typically have an emotional investment behind their probing. They also know their neighbor’s quirks and habits, elicit confidences, and ultimately work out the solution before law enforcement does."