S01.E08: Wallfacer

[AnimeMania]

(Season Finale)

A high-level operation upends Saul's life. With emotions and expectations high, the probe launches into space as humanity enters a daunting new era.

Premiere Date: March 21, 2024    Netflix    

[PurpleTentacle]

Somebody or something hacked into the computers of three cars to kill this guy. Let's put him into a plane! That seems like a great idea! Because planes don't have computers and can't be steered directly into the ground! 🤦‍♂️

-

If 18 grams are such a problem, just include a few cells from each seed and/or plant. If the aliens can rebuild a body, they can grow a plant from its DNA and yes, dude might appreciate being able to eat real food instead of nutrient paste. You can easily get it down under a gram.

-

The wallfacer project doesn't make sense. You can't just come up with plans in your head. You need to do research, ask what resources are at your disposal, etc. A sufficiently advanced AI could easily extrapolate plans from that, even if you try to obfuscate.

I mean the two super computers don't make any sense anyway. Even if they are near magic, how they are described, they still can't be in two places at once. Yes, if they can magically flick around at the speed of light, they can see a lot, but not surveil 8 billion people. If you build a few distracting things on the moon, it becomes even harder. Maybe build a Mars colony on top of that. Now you have three places that are a few light seconds to multiple light minutes apart. Good luck to 2 computers keeping all 3 places in check.

-

So the aliens understand now that somebody might lie about rejecting the position of a wallfacer? Man they got a concept completely foreign to them down fast. It's like a kindergartener understanding non-euclidean physics after a 5 second lecture...

-

Yeah, good luck getting any significant amount of water through a filter so fine it can filter viruses...

-

Pretty sure how it's shown here, the nuclear detonations wouldn't work for propulsion. They'd destroy the ship and the sail. But okay, chalk that up to the special effects department not knowing what they are doing. The principle behind it is sound.

What isn't sound is putting the head of a dude into your first attempt of something that has never been done before. You are trying to prevent something 400 years in the future. I get that you are impatient, but there is no need to be in that much of a hurry. At least launch one prototype first.

-

So the aliens can easily hack planes. Since they clearly actually want Saul dead, why didn't they let his plane crash?

-

That bug metaphor has not aged well. Bugs are dying left and right. Their populations are getting dangerously low and it might lead to eco systems collapsing.

---

General thoughts on the season:

- Why did it take communication for the Santi to find our planet? Considering they are only 4 light years away and they have this super advanced technology, they should have spotted earth decades, if not centuries, ago. Could have even sent a near light speed probe to see if it's habitable.

- There is no way a habitable planet could ever exist in such a chaotic star system as the Santi's is described as.

- The "I'm a pacifist on this planet"- message makes no sense. Since at that point the santi didn't know we were liars and came to co-exist. At least that is what we are told and what the characters seem to actually believe. So I assume that message is taken from the book, but D&D changed the rest of the story, not noticing that it now doesn't fit anymore. That is kinda their MO. They did the same with GoT all the time, after G.R.R. Martin had "left" the writers room.

- Why not point the Webb at the Santi's home system? See what you can see. Why not build a telescope with the sun as a lens? I mean you have magic nano wires. How is sending a head in a jar the best and only idea you can come up with?

- They never explained how the aliens manipulated the sky. Judging from the penultimate scene of the episode in the plane, I gather that they mean, they just manipulated the humans perceptions. But how can that be? They only have two computers. Even at light speed they couldn't move nearly fast enough to manipulate the perception of all humans on earth at once. Also again, if they can do that, why don't they just fry all human brains and be done with it? What are they playing at here?

- Overall: Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh. This was exhausting. Pretty and very well acted, but so, so dumb. I can't believe that the books are this dumb. This has to have been the two chucklefucks fucking with the story, right? Guess I'll have to go read them now... I really never wanted to, considering how hard some people were trying to push it. But here we are. I just have to know.

Edited March 23 by PurpleTentacle

[Anela]

So, do the characters go into suspended animation, or do they die, to be replaced with new people? I’m looking up the book’s Wikipedia, because I can’t afford to buy them.  
or is the timeline sped up, somehow? 

Edited March 24 by Anela

[Helena Dax]

Nice ending. This show is far from perfect but I wanna see the rest. I'm starting to warm up to the characters too, although I'm having a hard time remembering their names. 

@PurpleTentacle I agree with you about the alleged original pacifist intentions. If I remember correctly, by the time they found out about lying they were already messing up with the scientists.

 

[Anela]

55 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Nice ending. This show is far from perfect but I wanna see the rest. I'm starting to warm up to the characters too, although I'm having a hard time remembering their names. 

@PurpleTentacle I agree with you about the alleged original pacifist intentions. If I remember correctly, by the time they found out about lying they were already messing up with the scientists.

 

The original responder said that she was lucky they were a pacifist (the one who found her message). They told her not to respond, because they would attack if they found earth. 

Edited March 24 by Anela

[shrewd.buddha]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Overall: Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.

Same here.  The last three episodes were mostly talk, exposition, about things that were being done . Just a lot of angst between the Oxford grads.  Is this considered a success for Netflix?  It seems like too much of a slow burn for typical viewers.

How were the video game  headsets created? The Sophons (AI) could provide the design, but the device would still need to be physically created - and that would be cutting-edge, super advanced technology. 

If the Sophons can directly take over EV vehicles and aircraft, they could eliminate anyone they consider a threat. 

The stuff with Saul and the Wallfacer plan was slightly interesting but also felt like fluff.   The entire show feels like 80% talk and 20% action (or less).  The concepts are intriguing but the overall result is not satisfying. 

Edited March 25 by shrewd.buddha

[marinw]

Did somebody sabotage Staircase for some reason? Or was it simply one of those  space things where one in a million things goes wrong? This reminded me of For All Mankind: it’s always a loose cable that will frak up your mission.

[marinw]

Poor Saul, he is such a good person and an extremely supportive friend, especially to Will. I cannot help but think how all that unquestioned power isn't going to corrupt and destroy him, even if his intentions are the best. The other two Wallfacers are used to power.

I noticed that the UN introduced Saul as someone who "Works with the best minds", not A Best Mind himself. Interesting.

As for the rest of the world, I think we would handle the arrival of the San Ti the same way as global warming: It's a huge problem, but we don't have to worry about it right now. After the initial panic and novelty wears off, most people will go back to trying to live their lives.

Edited March 25 by marinw

[shrewd.buddha]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

- The "I'm a pacifist on this planet"- message makes no sense.

I had to think about this, but yeah, things do not add up: 
a) In episode 1,  Yen Wenjie gets a message that basically says  "I'm a pacifist who got your message first. Your message could have been  intercepted by the others who are invaders. I won't tell anyone about your call. Don't call back. Bye." 
b) In episode 5, the aliens seem to say "When something is known, everyone also knows,"  as if they share collective thought - so deception is not possible and is a foreign concept. 
   Both of these things cannot be true - unless there is more than one highly advanced species on the planet. 
   I really don't want to hear the writers come up with some lame "yes, but" excuse for these type of inconsistencies..

As others have said, the video game already demonstrates that the ET's know a lot about human behavior and psychology. And everything the ET-helper cultists have been instructed to do is basically deception and manipulation. 

[marinw]

On 3/23/2024 at 2:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

 

Yeah, good luck getting any significant amount of water through a filter so fine it can filter viruses...

You would probably end up drinking a lot of the nanofibres. Which would do…..interesting things to your digestive system.

[Zaffy]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I can't believe that the books are this dumb.

why not? not every book is good, not even best sellers!

Ok, after episode 5 I stopped watching. I saw that coming when around episode 3 I started Fast Forwarding through.
I read the rest of the episodes summaries in Wiki and I was not impressed, so I am ok with my decision. I mean, I do have Netflix and I still do not care to continue watching the damn thing.

Apparently I am  not the target audience for this series, but then who is? I guess 10-20 years old, because it all seems so juvenile  (oh look, oppression can create delusional mad scientists/cult leaders)  and just made to impress (the usual style over substance). 

I think the true destroyer of worlds is Netflix's mediocrity in such vast numbers.

 

Edited March 27 by Zaffy

[Paloma]

Despite my negative feelings after the second episode, I decided to watch the rest of the series with my husband but basically snarked my way through it. Aside from the cool visual effects, it was mostly a big waste of time. And I don't see where they can go from here, if they intend to make this a multiseason series...or even 2 seasons. If they stay pretty much in current time, we'll be stuck with the same boring characters (aside from the detective, who grew on me) and a lot of talk but not much action. If they jump 400 years, it would be interesting to see what happens when the aliens arrive. But it doesn't make sense that the aliens need to wait until they arrive to defeat humans, because they obviously have the power now to screw up our technology and drive people to commit suicide and homicide.

Also, the selection of Saul to be one of the three experts to come up with a plan to defeat the aliens seems silly. What special skills or knowledge does he bring to this, and wouldn't Jin be a better choice if they need an expert in physics who can think out of the box? And why only three experts? Why not have 100 or more? And if any of them come up with a plan, how are they going to communicate it to the people who need to implement it since the aliens can see and hear anything that is said or written? I know that they are not supposed to speak about the plan or write anything down, but even if that's possible, they still need to communicate it at some point. Maybe they can communicate by whispering without the aliens hearing?

[babyrambo]

I found the book (English translation) dull and didactic and didn’t finish the series but at least it felt somewhat original.

In contrast, the creators of this series took a fascinating premise and sucked out just about every bit of awe and intrigue. Plus they made aliens boring (the worst offence imo). I know book to tv adaptations require certain allowances but this production was riddled with avoidable flaws that were hard to overlook. 

Like the juvenile, grating dialogue, undercooked characters and patchy, uninspired plots. Half the arcs and characters were just reheated versions of better shows and movies. And the writing definitely didn’t help but I don’t think I’ve ever seen an onscreen friend group with such little chemistry and uneven acting. Jin was the exception; everyone else was either wooden or hamming it up and nothing landed. I don’t mind a touch of melodrama their personal lives were so dull and predictable it bogged down the series beyond belief. 

Also I’m no sci-fi buff (I’m always willing to buy into coincidence and hand waving if the show makes it convincing) but even I noticed how bland and silly the science aspect was. Well lit sets and fun CGI does not a good show make. 

[Anela]

8 hours ago, Paloma said:

Despite my negative feelings after the second episode, I decided to watch the rest of the series with my husband but basically snarked my way through it. Aside from the cool visual effects, it was mostly a big waste of time. And I don't see where they can go from here, if they intend to make this a multiseason series...or even 2 seasons. If they stay pretty much in current time, we'll be stuck with the same boring characters (aside from the detective, who grew on me) and a lot of talk but not much action. If they jump 400 years, it would be interesting to see what happens when the aliens arrive. But it doesn't make sense that the aliens need to wait until they arrive to defeat humans, because they obviously have the power now to screw up our technology and drive people to commit suicide and homicide.

Also, the selection of Saul to be one of the three experts to come up with a plan to defeat the aliens seems silly. What special skills or knowledge does he bring to this, and wouldn't Jin be a better choice if they need an expert in physics who can think out of the box? And why only three experts? Why not have 100 or more? And if any of them come up with a plan, how are they going to communicate it to the people who need to implement it since the aliens can see and hear anything that is said or written? I know that they are not supposed to speak about the plan or write anything down, but even if that's possible, they still need to communicate it at some point. Maybe they can communicate by whispering without the aliens hearing?

I think they wanted to use him, to get to auggie. She’s the one they wanted, and she refused.  

[HerkyJerky]

UO, but I liked it! Maybe I have a low bar for my shows, but the only thing I ask is that I’m entertained and I see something I haven’t seen before and this show fulfilled both requirements.

[PurpleTentacle]

19 hours ago, Zaffy said:

why not? not every book is good, not even best sellers!

I guess I'd just like to think a best seller wasn't this dumb. It's not even a kids book like Harry Potter or softcore porn like twilight (both were actually smarter than this). This is supposedly hard, intellectually stimulating scifi aimed at adults. At least that is what all of reddit has been shouting at me for years. Then I watch it and it's the most inane drivel I've ever seen in a scifi work... and I've seen Star Trek Discovery!

[Zaffy]

58 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

This is supposedly hard, intellectually stimulating scifi aimed at adults.

very very very very young adults! 😄

 

58 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

At least that is what all of reddit has been shouting at me for years.

Reddit... the place where people desperately search for shows to worship!

Edited March 28 by Zaffy

[shrewd.buddha]

My three problems with The 3 Body Problem. (based on what has been shown so far)

1. An invasion fleet 400 years away is not the biggest problem: the aliens are already here. The AI (Sophons) and cult-helpers have real-time communication with the aliens. They can manufacture metallic headsets with neural interfaces. They can cause mass hallucinations (blinking stars). They can override electronic communications (Times Square billboards, EV vehicles). Why not create a super virus?  Create advanced weapons for the cult-helpers to use? Blind all key scientists with countdown images? Launch some nuclear missiles?
2. Don’t expect me to be devastated by the death of a guy with terminal cancer who didn’t want to pursue further treatments - - especially after you expected me to accept that for the sake of humanity there was a need for a boatload of children to be sliced into deli meat. (90% of the people on that boat were likely clueless spouses or children of the zealots.)
3. If you want to brand yourself as a smart sci-fi show, you had better expect a lot of nit-picking: A water filter that doesn’t need cleaning? Nano fiber tech that goes from prototype to industrial use in a few weeks? Cryo-hibernation tech that appears just when they need it? Saul not being smart enough to realize Yen was giving him some type of clue with the "joke". Etc, etc..

[aghst]

Lot of things to nitpick and question but I found myself wanting to keep watching and finish it.

I haven’t seen any other movies or shows about alien invasion.  But the human reaction to the existential threat is interesting.

Yeah if we extrapolate how we’ve responded to things like climate change and the pandemic, it’s probably true that at least half the population would deny it’s a problem or just go about business as usual, unwilling to give up comforts or certain lifestyles.

Here the governments all come together and make all science research about defeating the invasion.  Wade has almost unlimited resources — well they only got 300 instead of 1000 nuclear bombs.

Auggie and Saul are the only ones who aren’t willing to change their lives or ethics in Auggie’s case for this cause, even though the aliens got their friend Jack killed.

But they just showed how easily they could have killed Wade.  So the San Ti may not deceive but they will mindfuck.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 3/29/2024 at 4:08 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

An invasion fleet 400 years away is not the biggest problem: the aliens are already here. The AI (Sophons) and cult-helpers have real-time communication with the aliens. They can manufacture metallic headsets with neural interfaces. They can cause mass hallucinations (blinking stars). They can override electronic communications (Times Square billboards, EV vehicles). Why not create a super virus?  Create advanced weapons for the cult-helpers to use? Blind all key scientists with countdown images? Launch some nuclear missiles?

Really, if you can project images onto a retina and block out actual light coming in (the universe blinking), you can just fry someones brain. They can easily kill anybody they think will produce scientific progress. Then they'll still have a nice slave race left when they get here in 400 years. Or like you say, if they don't want the slave race, they could easily kill all humans.

None of this makes sense. How they supposedly work and move makes no sense. If they can do all that, then their limitations make no sense. Also it's not how quantum entanglement works, the computers would work with 4 years of lag between every operation.

But yeah, if we accept that these computers work how it was told to us, which is hard but whatever, I don't see why there isn't a lot of effort put into trying to disrupt them. I don't know how you'd capture or destroy a proton (though I think powerfull magnets should work) but I'm also not a super smart scientist, like all the characters on this show.

We should have at least gotten some lip service why that can't be done and thus isn't the highest priority.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/29/2024 at 10:08 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

Saul not being smart enough to realize Yen was giving him some type of clue with the "joke". Etc, etc..

It makes sense to us as an audience that Saul was picked as a Wallfacer because the authorities think that Ye singling Saul out was significant, and that it was in fact significant. It makes sense that Saul was singled out for two assassination attempts because the San-Ti are concerned specifically about him  and what Ye told him, since as far as we know, the San-Ti have not attempted to kill the other two Wallfacers (who apparently don't need to wear bulletproof clothes) nor did they do anything more than try to scare Wade although they apparently could have killed him had they wanted.

It seems at least somewhat ambiguous to me whether Ye was indeed repentant. She tells Saul that she's failed more people than everyone ever, and seems to regret that her involvement in the alien conspiracy led Vera to kill herself.  Does that mean Ye was in fact was repentant enough to betray the San-Ti? Or was she just an odd duck with an odd sense of humor?

But assuming that it is true that she was repentant for her role in everything and was trying to convey a way to stop the San-Ti that they would not pick up on, I don't think it is a flaw in either the show or Saul's character that he doesn't immediately pick up on it.

Saul has no reason to think she is wanting to make amends for what she has done. Saul isn't genre-savvy like we are to hear the score indicate "there's something important going on here," to have a concept of foreshadowing in his own life or to be able to conclude that there is some deeper significance to the joke.

And Saul has a lot going on mentally and emotionally -- the recent deaths of two friends and the imminent death of another plus the earthshaking revelation of hostile alien life -- so it makes sense he wouldn't pick up on the subtlety of it.

Plus, it does not seem like Saul has the highest level of social skills (for instance, not simply saying "Of course I know your name, Nora." or arguing points with her when he should have just dropped it). So it seems in character for him to not pick up on the clue. 

It could just be a weird joke being told by a weird person. Or Ye could be likening herself to Einstein as she thought she had been communicating with and doing the bidding of God, and now finds herself metaphorically kicked in the balls.  I originally took her to be going back to the relationship between her and her daughter as the uniquely personal way of communicating and that Vera was effectively telling Ye that she should kill herself. At the end, she seemed to be totally fine with the San-Ti's agent Tatiana killing her. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

So I binged the season and will probably be back for S2, but there are quite a few things I am wondering about. If the books answer them, please put it behind spoiler tags.

1. Were the San-Ti actually ignorant of the concept of lies until 2024-ish? I think we are supposed to take it at face value that they were, but I am not sure how to reconcile that with having had communications with humans going back to the 80s, with supercomputers that soaked up all of what was going on since there would have been ample documentation of people lying, texts about lies, etc. Indeed, the whole 3 Body Problem VR game is effectively a lie, the whole "stop your work or bad things will happen to you" is a lie, their appearing human when that is not how they appear is a lie, etc.

2. The 3 Body Problem VR game doesn't really make much sense to me either. I can get behind the notion that it was never about trying to solve the 3 Body Problem since the problem is apparently insolvable, and since the San-Ti had already decided to come to Earth anyway. But there has to be an easier way to recruit people into the cult than to see how quickly they could realize that the 3 Body Problem can't be solved. Why does the cult need people smart enough to figure that out, rather than as many people as possible?  In fact, shouldn't the cult as a long-term goal be getting rid of smart scientific types who could possibly mount a defense to the San-Ti?

3. It makes little sense to me that given all the tools at its disposal, the cult straight-up murdered Jack the way they did for refusing to join and trying to tell someone about them. Especially when they full-on revealed themselves like a week or two later. It would be relatively easy to discredit Jack's attempt to say that there are aliens among us by driving him crazy, putting whatever they want in his digital records to undermine his story, etc. If he had to be killed, there are probably a half-dozen ways that they could have done it without raising any suspicions of foul play. Other than to show that the cult was mwa-ha-ha evil, not sure why it was done.

4. One of the things I am unclear on was how and why the humans came to think of the San-Ti in religious terms. It seems odd that a daughter of Communist China and a son of a high-powered capitalist thought of things as their "Lord" and would continue to use that sort of language (and if the San-Ti are 100 percent on the truth train, that the San-Ti would have let them build up this zealotry). I think I would have enjoyed this much more if the bad guys were simply making the rational calculation that siding with the San-Ti was the best thing for not just humans but also the rest of life on Earth.

5. It seems like the anti-alien forces were fairly incompetent. I can get that they were slow at first when there's only a suspicion of alien involvement and/or do not have the full sense of what is going on. But the raid at the summit was super-ham fisted, as Ye pointed out. It would have been way smarter to have Jin see how deep she could get in the organization, generate leads that way, etc. But given that they raided the Summit and got a number of its members in custody, it should have been fairly simple to flip at least some of the hundred or so people there. And even if you couldn't turn any of those people, it should have been feasible to use standard investigative techniques to learn more about the cult and the aliens at that point. Releasing Ye (or anyone else) because she has not committed any crime is beyond ridiculous because she has committed numerous crimes under current laws (including conspiracy to murder) and more to the point, it is not as though Wade would be above using a little extraordinary rendition on someone who was a traitor to the human race. But Tatiana escaping the raid on the Summit, never getting caught, being able to fly to frigging China in time to kill Ye and back seems -- even with the help of the San-Ti, a pretty big stretch.

6. I am not sure why the pro-alien forces didn't do things differently either. Why not go down some variation of the V route and offer the upsides of welcoming their new alien overlords fairly openly? Probably more than half of the 7 billion on Earth would be excited about the sort of world that the aliens could promise: VR headsets that could put people in paradises, quantum supercomputers that could solve problems, advances in space travel, etc. Or if there was too much uncertainty about how Earth might receive the aliens, there are probably more effective ways to undermine technological progress than to make a few dozen scientists stop what they are doing or drive them mad. Especially when there are other scientists to potentially pick up the work. It seems impossible, for instance, that Auggie could be like "we're pausing this nanofber deal" and that someone would not have stepped up. Indeed, now that the conspiracy is in the open, it seems like it will backfire and that Earth will pour lots of resources into the specific scientific areas the San-Ti was targeting. It seems like the whole countdown  approach would inevitably lead people to say something about it to others, which would lead to the notion that this simply couldn't happen with the current state of our technology, which would lead to suspect aliens, which would probably be counterproductive.

[aghst]

I think it makes sense for Ye to be religious.  She made a leap as a young woman to invite them, offering to help them.

She had a reason to have a chip against the world.  And to carry that on for decades, through major life events like moving to the UK, having a child, you have to have some faith to sustain all of it.

Evans wanted to save birds.  I don't know why he'd think the San Ti would care about his concerns, which is roughly the environment?

But apparently he inherited an oil kingdom and continued to let it make a fortune for him so that he could set up that tanker with all those people inside and a big dish to communicate with the "Lord."

I don't know, that's a weird trajectory.  Why did they become true believers.

Would like to see a back story for Tatiana, the warrior for the cause, who's killed how many?  What made her do the things she's doing now?

I don't want it to become Lost, which spammed you with back stories just to keep the show going for as many seasons as they could for $$$.

But they're trying to do some character development, why are these traitors so hardcore?  What made them true believers?  Because the San Ti might be like that mini series from the '80s, where the aliens promised to give humans cures and technology but it turned out they just wanted to feed on them.

Did the San Ti make promises to make the world better?  That would probably be deception, which they're not capable of doing, right?

[Emcber]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

5. It seems like the anti-alien forces were fairly incompetent. 

I’m still laughing that their solution was to launch a cryogenically frozen brain into space (which immediately gets lost in space). Then hope the San-Ti bring in the capsule and thaw the brain and give him a new body, let him spy and find a way to relay that info back to earth. 

On the other hand the San-Ti are also incompetent with that bizarre car accident attempt. 😂😂

[aghst]

They might have the brain as an amuse-bouche, a taste of what feast they have in store when they arrive on earth.

Edited March 31 by aghst

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

I think it makes sense for Ye to be religious.  She made a leap as a young woman to invite them, offering to help them.

She had a reason to have a chip against the world.  And to carry that on for decades, through major life events like moving to the UK, having a child, you have to have some faith to sustain all of it.

Evans wanted to save birds.  I don't know why he'd think the San Ti would care about his concerns, which is roughly the environment?

But apparently he inherited an oil kingdom and continued to let it make a fortune for him so that he could set up that tanker with all those people inside and a big dish to communicate with the "Lord."

I don't know, that's a weird trajectory.  Why did they become true believers.

Would like to see a back story for Tatiana, the warrior for the cause, who's killed how many?  What made her do the things she's doing now?

I don't want it to become Lost, which spammed you with back stories just to keep the show going for as many seasons as they could for $$$.

But they're trying to do some character development, why are these traitors so hardcore?  What made them true believers?  Because the San Ti might be like that mini series from the '80s, where the aliens promised to give humans cures and technology but it turned out they just wanted to feed on them.

Did the San Ti make promises to make the world better?  That would probably be deception, which they're not capable of doing, right?

I wouldn't mind having backstories fleshed out for many of the characters in 3BP. The problem with Lost IMO wasn't the flashbacks/flashforwards, but rather that the powers that be didn't really have consistency in their vision and were making everything up as they went along about the multiple mysteries and nothing really made sense or mattered in the end. 3BP is based on novels so as much as the showrunners might play with things or try to stretch things out, there's at least a beginning, middle and end for them to shoot for.

We were told a bunch of things about our heroes, but I don't think we were shown them. 

Will's character was described that he was smart but not willing to take risks professionally or romantically. I don't remember seeing that love/longing from Will in the scenes we saw with Jin, just having a character say "You should go for it." Nor do I think they helped show what Will loves about Jin. Did Jin have a clue that Will was in love with her until he basically killed himself?  

It was implied that Auggie and Saul had been an item, and Jin suggested that Auggie even loved Saul as much as Jin apparently loved her. But aside from Auggie trying to call Saul to support her about the winking and that other time only be disgusted that he had just been banging someone else, there didn't seem to be that sort of love there.

What made Jack go from a high level physics genius to a snack entrepreneur?

I know against the backdrop of alien intrigue and ongoing action, these sorts of things are relatively unimportant. But it's by fleshing out the characters IMO that the rest of the elements will get enhanced. Yes, knowing more about who Saul, Auggie and Jin really are and how they came to be that way will make them dodging the alien threats more interesting.

 

[marinw]

The San Ti already know all there is to know about humans. How would a frozen head increase their knowledge or empathy?

I hope Will’s head was truly dead, being a self-aware frozen head in space for hundreds of years is nightmare fuel.

Edited March 31 by marinw

[aghst]

20 minutes ago, marinw said:

The San Ti already know all there is to know about humans. How would a frozen head increase their knowledge or empathy?

I hope Wills head was truly dead, being a frozen head in space for hundreds of years is nightmare fuel.

Well supposedly they didn't know until like 60 years after Ye made first contact that humans are deceptive.

They decide then and there that they can't live with liars.  Judgey much?

They ghosted Evans and then contacted Tatiana, who apparently is some super assassin, getting the jump on the secret agent type who was trailing Ye to China.

They decided to taunt Evans on that jet, made him scared for his life.

They have more human qualities than they like to admit.

 

[Zaffy]

16 hours ago, aghst said:

Would like to see a back story for Tatiana, the warrior for the cause, who's killed how many?  What made her do the things she's doing now?

Because she is completely nuts/sociopath/serial killer?
Probably with a traumatic past. After all, in our era (TV and books) it seems a traumatic past is the easy explanation for every character, good or villain. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 hours ago, marinw said:

The San Ti already know all there is to know about humans. How would a frozen head increase their knowledge or empathy?

If we are to take the "We would like to speak to the Big Bad Wolf to better understand" discussion at face value, the San-Ti have a lot of data about humans but not a lot of comprehension of what makes us tick, abstract concepts, etc.

They also seemingly have not interacted directly with anyone besides Wade this last episode who is less than worshipful towards them, and possibly no one directly outside of Ye, Evans and now Tatiana. A lot of their preconceptions of humans might be set not by all the data they have access to but rather the personal interactions they have yet to have. 

There's also the potential issue where a big enough number is a mere statistic, but a singular case can be a tragedy. 

The San-Ti are very focused on the concept of survival. The notion that a frozen head can be resurrected and talk about such things as his love for Jin, and that he didn't go through all the means at his disposal to survive might be utterly foreign and fascinating to them.  

[shrewd.buddha]

21 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. The 3 Body Problem VR game doesn't really make much sense to me either.

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

the San-Ti have a lot of data about humans but not a lot of comprehension of what makes us tick, abstract concepts, etc.

Not sure if the source material avoided this problem, but the super-advanced VR headset should allow the AI's - and the San-Ti - to explore/scan the human brain and have real-time communications with a human about their feelings, motivations, etc.  

@Chicago Redshirt,  your detailed list of issues with the show are the kinds of problems the showrunners should have anticipated when viewers start pulling at the threads of the story as told: things don't add up.

21 hours ago, aghst said:

Evans wanted to save birds.  I don't know why he'd think the San Ti would care about his concerns, which is roughly the environment?

Evans and Ye made a lot of ridiculous assumptions about what the San-Ti would do when arriving on Earth. If you don't trust your fellow human beings, why would you think an alien entity would have any altruistic plans for any life on Earth? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Evans and Ye made a lot of ridiculous assumptions about what the San-Ti would do when arriving on Earth. If you don't trust your fellow human beings, why would you think an alien entity would have any altruistic plans for any life on Earth? 

I could see reasons why someone in a vacuum might jump to the conclusion that a civilization that has mastered space travel would be more sophisticated/enlightened than ours. or maybe even that given the way our civilization is going, we are going to wipe ourselves out in another century or so, so it's worth risking that the alien civilization might do better for us because they certainly can't do much worse. 

But when Ye is expressly told by an alien: Don't contact us again because my people are conquerors who will mess you up, it would have been nice to have more on Ye's decision to say "Nah, we're good. Come conquer us."

[dwmarch]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:33 PM, marinw said:

Did somebody sabotage Staircase for some reason? Or was it simply one of those  space things where one in a million things goes wrong? This reminded me of For All Mankind: it’s always a loose cable that will frak up your mission.

I haven't read the books so I could be totally wrong about this (and I wish to remain unspoiled if so) but I have a feeling they would not just launch homeboy's head into space and immediately fail. I think there are two possibilities. One, the whole mission control sequence was a big deception designed to convince the San-Ti that it didn't work. Probably not though because we had camera shots of the cable coming apart and also because deception wouldn't really help in this scenario. So for option two, I have a feeling that even though the probe is off-course, it will somehow still end up where it needs to be because plot.

On 3/31/2024 at 7:08 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could just be a weird joke being told by a weird person. Or Ye could be likening herself to Einstein as she thought she had been communicating with and doing the bidding of God, and now finds herself metaphorically kicked in the balls.

I thought the joke was funny but I have ADHD and it's very much that kind of humor. But I also think Ye was trying to provide an abstract hint or warning that the San-Ti would not be able to parse the meaning of if they were listening in.

On 3/31/2024 at 9:07 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Were the San-Ti actually ignorant of the concept of lies until 2024-ish?

Agreed, this is weird. And "we're not capable of lying" is totally something a liar would say. Vulcans "can't lie" either but they certainly know how to be creative with the truth.

I also found that this show had a lot of similarities to The Peripheral where we also see forces with advanced technology using VR headsets to mess with people.

[iMonrey]

Can anyone tell me what in the bloody hell the point of this story was? What brilliant philosophy went right over my head? That we're bugs? Is that it?

This was an utter fail at almost every level. Mind-numbing character study with the most boring characters imaginable. "Science" that made no sense whatsoever. Dropped plot points right and left. Zero payoff after eight hours. Eight hours! 

I just don't understand what this show was trying to say. The series description is "Unsettling events put a group of brilliant friends on edge as a mystery unravels with origins tracing back to China during the Cultural Revolution." So I take it this was supposed to be a story about Jin, Saul, Auggie, Will and Jack. Yet, I still know next to nothing about any of them. Except that they are all broody, pouty, introspective and dull as dishwater. Oh, and two of them are dead now. 

Banal character study doesn't get more interesting against an intriguing sci-fi premise. Especially when it spends an inordinate amount of time on pointless personal conversations that have nothing to do with said premise. 

It even fails as commentary on humanity's reaction to such a situation because instead of focusing on the population at large we only get the point of view of these limited, uninteresting characters, and who the hell cares what they think? The show failed to make them interesting enough for me to care about them.

On 3/27/2024 at 8:22 AM, Zaffy said:

Ok, after episode 5 I stopped watching. I saw that coming when around episode 3 I started Fast Forwarding through.
I read the rest of the episodes summaries in Wiki and I was not impressed, so I am ok with my decision. I mean, I do have Netflix and I still do not care to continue watching the damn thing.

I envy you. I wish I had stopped after episode one.

[Zaffy]

42 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I just don't understand what this show was trying to say.

I am not sure if we are having mediocre to bad writers or they write in such low level to please their target audience of mediocre iq.
But this is how it is now, juvenile, shallow and style over substance.

[Hava]

Did anyone else think that, despite being in their early 30s, the Oxford 5 felt like they were starring in a teen or YA drama? Their part of the story didn't feel sophisticated or adult at all. 

I wish the series had instead focused on Clarence investigating the scientists' suicides, which was the most intriguing plot point in the first episode that quickly dissipated with the reveal of the aliens.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:44 AM, Zaffy said:

I am not sure if we are having mediocre to bad writers or they write in such low level to please their target audience of mediocre iq.

It's dumb and dumber. They managed to utterly ruin the massive cultural momentum game of thrones had, with their shitty writing. I think that should answer your question.

But from what everybody here said, the source material in this case doesn't seem to be much better. Seems like the books are the epitome of /r/im13andthisisdeep

[Zaffy]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

It's dumb and dumber. They managed to utterly ruin the massive cultural momentum game of thrones had, with their shitty writing. I think that should answer your question.

I found GOT horrible.. it was definitely not my cup of tea, but still I think it was awful, even if it had a great production and cast and music.
Talking about "/r/im13andthisisdeep", my nephew, 13yo at the time, was super excited when Denyrys took a ride on the back of a dragon for the first time. At the same episode a child was burned alive on the stake. When I asked him how he felt about it, he replied "who cares? Danny flew on a dragon". Next year the boy was accused of bullying another student at school with 2 other schoolmates.
This is the effect these series can have when they rely so much on the "shock factor" and violence, like the brutal destruction of a ship full of kids that happens cause well...it's cool to show these slicing humans effects.
 

Edited April 5 by Zaffy

[isalicat]

Well I agree with many here that ultimately this series was pretty awful, although I was willing to watch it to the end, so clearly something was holding my attention. By the fifth episode I was playing a game of "what does this remind me of?" in reference to all the significantly better versions of some of the plot points and such. Do you remember "V"?  My favorite take on anything involving aliens invading earth is the classic Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man" from the story by Damon Knight - that really scared me back in the day. 400 years away plus here right now all at once is a bridge too far - I won't come back for series 2 if there is one.

[maddie965]

I guess I'm in the minority here because I'm completely in love with this show. Flawed, yes, but incredibly engaging (watched it all in two days and can't wait to watch it again), provocative (I can't stop thinking about it), mind-blowing (Ye enrages me and breaks my heart at the same time), inspiring (I want so much to be Jin), lovely (I could watch a whole show about the detective).

 I'm so curious about the San-ti. Pretty sure they don't think we are bugs and they don't want to kill us all. They want us to fear them so we won't attack them in the future. They said as much. They are acting in self defense. But if they can find allies here, that would be much better. So they are studying us, recruiting, experimenting. I find it fascinating. Imagine bring able to talk to them...

I think what gets me - and many reviewers who are praising the show - are the questions it raises for me. Would I have pushed the button like Ye? Humanity can't save itself, she's right about that. If I found out aliens were coming in 400 years, would I be like Saul, just smoking weed and trying not to think about it? Very likely. Would I be like Jin and do whatever it takes to stop them? Would I be like Auggie and refuse to repeat the mistakes Openheimer did? 

I could go on forever. This show does it for me. Please let there be more seasons. And I'm buying the books soon. But I will only read them after I watch the whose series on TV. Don't want to be spoiled!

 

Edited April 8 by maddie965

[marinw]

11 hours ago, maddie965 said:

I guess I'm in the minority here because I'm completely in love with this show. Flawed, yes, but incredibly engaging 

Agreed. I have a soft spot for big, ambitious TV Shows and Films that don't always quite hit the mark but still have a lot to offer. This was one of the most original show I've seen in a long time.

Hoping for a second season. I'd be fine with a 400 year time jump,.

Edited April 8 by marinw

[Ottis]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Somebody or something hacked into the computers of three cars to kill this guy. Let's put him into a plane! That seems like a great idea! Because planes don't have computers and can't be steered directly into the ground!

May I suggest that going down this path, and all the paths that demand this show adhere to scientific principles, is a waste of energy. I thought the same thing you did as they whisked Saul to a plane (and BTW, why were the security guys ringed around the plane facing inwards, not outwards?) ... and then the show made an effort by depicting military planes escorting the plane Saul was on. Does that fix everything? No. But it recognized the risk and made a token effort to address it, and the story continued. [BTW, did what happened to Rich Guy's plane actually happen, or was it just what the San-Ti wanted him to see?].

It's more fun, and less frustrating, to step back and enjoy the bigger picture. Which is, as I posted after the first or second ep, a sort of Ender's Game. Select people are being tested to see if they are humanity's champions. Are they? Not even they know. But let the tests begin! Then add some Foundation-style, long-term vision.

BTW, a key point is that for most of this plot to work, we have to accept that the San-Ti, for whatever reason, are very, very, VERY freaked out by lying, and never do it themselves, hence their clear and obvious actions like trying to take out Saul as soon as he leaves the UN, which we bugs all saw coming as soon as he walked away from the auditorium.

On 3/31/2024 at 2:55 PM, Emcber said:

’m still laughing that their solution was to launch a cryogenically frozen brain into space (which immediately gets lost in space). Then hope the San-Ti bring in the capsule and thaw the brain and give him a new body, let him spy and find a way to relay that info back to earth. 

Heck yeah! That's the whackiness I'm beginning to enjoy. 

Jin's boyfriend is breathtakingly cynical. if he truly believes Will's brain is dead, then he must also believe the entire project is a waste of time and resources ... and yet he is part of it. He wants glory. if he thinks this is a waste of time, he wouldn't stick around to be part of failure. I can see why Jin is done with him.

As a viewer, of course I want Will to still be Will in space. That's nutso, so yeah, let's see it. Let's see Will on a mechanical San-Ti body. If this is all a feint, bummer. Maybe the San-Ti are indeed closer and will yet find him.

I still wonder if the aliens who create the interface are the same San-Ti who are on their way. Could be that card found in the RV should be taken as face value... the "one of us who survives" IS about that San-Ti. OR, it could be that they are fooling the woman and she is actually being sucked into a game by a different alien or perhaps San-Ti faction. 

And what's with all the news stories on cicadas? Are those bugs going to teach us bugs something? ADD: I wrote that before the final few minutes. Yeah, I guess the message is, bugs can thrive.

Edited April 9 by Ottis

[CatWarmer]

Reading through these comments and spurred by the lost in space mention, I started thinking, "Danger Will Downing!  Danger Will Downing!"

I was another who thought about the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man".  You'd think some of the nerds on the show would be familiar with it!

Also I admit I was hoping Ye would grab Tatiana by the arm and run her off the mountain.  

I gave up on anything seeming logical pretty early on but did enjoy familiar faces from GOT and Doctor Strange.  And I watched to the end of the season so at least it held my interest.  Admittedly I was thinking it wouldn't leave so many unanswered questions.

[lucindabelle]

Why did this show get dull? I guess I’m a real outlier because the part of the show I enjoyed and really enjoyed a lot was the virtual reality game. It had humor. It had mystery. It even had sorrow. But then it ended when never went back to it, and it was just about all these very special people, reminded me of librarians or some other stupid chosen people show. The notion that we’re just like bugs just reminded me of the young adult book the fifth wave which I couldn’t put down but when I started thinking about it really made no sense. I wrote on Amazon at the time I said I still believe. Yes we do exterminate pest, but we wouldn’t if we were talking to them and they sat up and said I have a family. So the idea that the Santi would see us is just like bugs or rats or whatever is ridiculous. It’s actually quite barbaric.  Even the things we do to animals the animals were talking to us. We were talking back. I don’t think we would be able to do as a species. I could be wrong. Didn’t think any of the scientist was particularly special and I hate that trope anyway people calling the Santi the Lord that made no sense to me of any kind ever there was nothing remotely divine about this species or the idea that they were paternalistic or anything I couldn’t see it. 

[Hanahope]

after finishing this, i found it interesting, but a lot of plot holes. 

a little wtf over why Ye answered the san-ti when she was told by the pacifist "don't answer, or we will come".  what did she think "we will come" meant when the pacifist said 'don't answer'?  if they were benevolent, then the pacifist would not have any concerns.  maybe the San-ti lie more than they think, or they've deluded themselves if they gave any indication to Ye or Evans that they were benevolent, or just looking for a new home.

speaking of which, really, there's no planet closer to the san-ti homeworld?  if they have the tech for inter-galactical space flight that takes 400 years (so either cryo or sufficient means to sustain generation(s) that long), and the ability to send out sophons that see/hear everything and control other forms of tech/science, you'd think they'd be able to scout other potential planets that aren't already inhabited.  

or do they want a slave source?  (see, e.g. Colony) or food/breeding source?  (see, e.g. V), terraforming/body change (Falling Skies).  if they merely wanted to kill everyone for the planet, seems like they have the means to do so (crash airplanes, etc.)

and how did the headsets make it to earth?

 

 

 

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 4/4/2024 at 10:18 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

It's dumb and dumber. They managed to utterly ruin the massive cultural momentum game of thrones had, with their shitty writing. I think that should answer your question.

I'll disagree a bit here. Martin is a lazy fuck whose head got stuck up his own ass once GoT took off. And the last two books are a ponderous slog. 

The source material here is challenging, considering the San-Ti's world is actually a 4-Body Problem.

[mrspidey]

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

 The wallfacer project doesn't make sense. You can't just come up with plans in your head. You need to do research, ask what resources are at your disposal, etc. A sufficiently advanced AI could easily extrapolate plans from that, even if you try to obfuscate.

Valid point. Just keep watching. 

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

  

So the aliens can easily hack planes. Since they clearly actually want Saul dead, why didn't they let his plane crash?

That's a stupid show thing. They can't do that in the books. They use the E. T.O. as muscle.

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

 

- The "I'm a pacifist on this planet"- message makes no sense. Since at that point the santi didn't know we were liars and came to co-exist. At least that is what we are told and what the characters seem to actually believe. So I assume that message is taken from the book, but D&D changed the rest of the story, not noticing that it now doesn't fit anymore. That is kinda their MO. They did the same with GoT all the time, after G.R.R. Martin had "left" the writers room.

That is very likely.

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

- Why not point the Webb at the Santi's home system? See what you can see. Why not build a telescope with the sun as a lens? I mean you have magic nano wires. How is sending a head in a jar the best and only idea you can come up with?

Again, show only. 

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

- They never explained how the aliens manipulated the sky. Judging from the penultimate scene of the episode in the plane, I gather that they mean, they just manipulated the humans perceptions. But how can that be? They only have two computers. Even at light speed they couldn't move nearly fast enough to manipulate the perception of all humans on earth at once. Also again, if they can do that, why don't they just fry all human brains and be done with it? What are they playing at here?

It was sort of implied in episode 5 when the Sophon explains the plan to Wade and Jin.

The Sophon unfolded down to two dimensions, wrapped itself around the planet and turned its transparency on and off. Yes, it is that mundane.

A lot of what the Sophon does is smoke and mirrors because it really can't do much else. Same with the countdown. It's just scare tactics.

The only real thing it can do is spying, relaying information and blockade fundamental research at the quantum level, creating a wall that most science branches will eventually run into, be it physics, computer science, neuro science, etc.

On 3/23/2024 at 6:10 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

 

 

[PurpleTentacle]

11 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Valid point. Just keep watching. 

I might. At least at the moment it makes for a good hate-watch, with it's massive level of stupid. But I doubt the wallfacers will make any more sense with more information. The premise is inherently flawed.

11 hours ago, mrspidey said:

That's a stupid show thing. They can't do that in the books. They use the E. T.O. as muscle.

Well the sophons are inherently stupid, so I can't blame this all on the showrunners. First and foremost ftl communication. No, that's not how quantum entanglement works.

11 hours ago, mrspidey said:

It was sort of implied in episode 5 when the Sophon explains the plan to Wade and Jin.

The Sophon unfolded down to two dimensions, wrapped itself around the planet and turned its transparency on and off. Yes, it is that mundane.

That's not what happened in the show. They made a point of saying that telescopes and cameras didn't see/record the event, which means it didn't actually physically happen.

Btw. that thing just unfolding itself from a single proton to cover the whole world is the most science-fantasy thing I've ever heard. Even what the show did makes more sense.

11 hours ago, mrspidey said:

The only real thing it can do is spying, relaying information and blockade fundamental research at the quantum level, creating a wall that most science branches will eventually run into, be it physics, computer science, neuro science, etc.

And even all those things would be physically impossible for it to do in a world that is somehow rooted in science and the fundamental laws of our universe.

[mrspidey]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I might. At least at the moment it makes for a good hate-watch, with it's massive level of stupid. But I doubt the wallfacers will make any more sense with more information. The premise is inherently flawed.

Yes it is. This issue is a major focus in book two.

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Well the sophons are inherently stupid, so I can't blame this all on the showrunners. First and foremost ftl communication. No, that's not how quantum entanglement works.

It's a very common misconception, though. And it was even more prevalent back in 2006 when the book was written. But who knows, the Trisolarians seem to know a lot more about this stuff than we do...

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That's not what happened in the show. They made a point of saying that telescopes and cameras didn't see/record the event, which means it didn't actually physically happen.

D&D writing again. It makes more sense in the books.

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Btw. that thing just unfolding itself from a single proton to cover the whole world is the most science-fantasy thing I've ever heard. Even what the show did makes more sense.

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

And even all those things would be physically impossible for it to do in a world that is somehow rooted in science and the fundamental laws of our universe.

I mean, the story assumes that String Theory is correct. Also the principle of complex 3D structures having huge surface areas is a well known fact that can be easily demonstrated with everyday materials. Take an A4 sheet of paper, wrap it into a ball and it will fit into the palm of your hand. The surface area of the interior of the human lung is as large as a football field.

The author simply applied this principle to the additional spatial dimensions postulated by ST.

This is absolutely fine by me. Honestly, i have a lot more trouble accepting that Trisolaris is Alpha Centauri, when every astronomer and hobby astronomer worth their salt know that Alpha Centauri is a stable trinary system.

Edited September 26 by mrspidey