S17.E22: Doubts, Dilemmas and Drag!

[TwirlyGirly]

Even MORE stuff happens!

(Sorry, gang. I think the contract for whomever wrote the episode descriptions for MAFS ended with episode 20, because that was the last episode for which Lifetime provided an "official" description.

My description covers anything and everything that could happen, so let's go with that 😉)

Air date 3/20/2024

Edited March 17 by TwirlyGirly

[ByTor]

From IMDB:

Quote

“Doubts, Dilemmas, and Drag!” guarantees an episode filled with moments of tension, introspection, and maybe even a dash of glamour.

Glamour?? 😂

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

From IMDB:

Glamour?? 😂

There’s a first time for everything?

[VioletNevermind]

Becca’s mom = 💜

😭

[JenE4]

Did Chloe just say that Dr Pia was making a big deal out of nothing and it’s only “little things” they don’t agree on?! Are 5 foster kiddos and 7,240 disabled animals little things?! Maybe they are 7,240 Pygmy goats and miniature horses and teacup pigs and other technically “little” things?

[kristen111]

Becca needs a box of Kleenex before those claws poke her eyes out.

[Retired at last]

Wait- Becca is crying? How unusual. NOT.

[JenE4]

Okay, guys, Mea culpa. Emily does love one-night stands! 

[Meowwww]

I turned it off for viewing at a later time.  SO boring. It’s time for this season to be done.  

[endure]

LOL @ Brennan - he comments the guys were sitting ducks, and they are all sitting around with their yellow oilcloth aprons on and well, I got this image lol 🐥

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Even MORE stuff happens!

If only... Just a lot of talking.

I like a good drag show as much as the next girl, but that metal-working thing looked cool. I think I'd rather do that. I can see drag queens any time.

[Elizzikra]

I still can't stand Brennan and if he spits out that crap one more time about "protecting" Emily, I'll punch him through my tv screen. But all credit to him for basically asking Orion why he cares so much about pursuing a "friendship" with  Lauren. Those two have no need to ever been in contact again. He wasn't even respectful to Lauren when they were married. Why be so fixated on "friendship" with her now?

Oh - and finding a rental that will allow three dogs (including a restricted breed) and two cats is going to be difficult. We renovated our home a few years back and had to move out for six months. We had three dogs (one pit) and a cat and believe me - it really narrowed the places we could go. It cost extra as well. And the place that we ended up in, while great for our purposes, was not a place that I would have wanted to be our long term home. It only really worked because we had a limited timeframe to be there. Maybe Colorado rentals are more tolerant of pets?

On Afterparty... I was a bridesmaid in a wedding in 1992 and my dress had  GIGANTIC puffy sleeves... just like Chloe's top. Some trends are better off left dead. This is one of them.

Edited March 21 by Elizzikra

[Yeah No]

I realized why I can't stand the guys this season.  For all their lofty talk and this "mature" act they put on, it's obvious to me that most if not all of them don't know one thing about how a woman works much less how to treat one.  I've detested Brennan all season but even I was shocked when he said he couldn't understand why Emily was so upset and crying after she had agreed that they were both going to be "just friends".  Like just because she went along with it to please him and not make a fuss doesn't mean that she can turn her feelings off so easily just to make him feel better.  Deep down she is still hurt because she actually had genuine hopes that it might work out with him.  Emily may not have ever had a serious relationship but he's acting like he never even met a girl much less dated one!

I feel like I never used to have to explain to anyone why someone might be hurt when they realize the person they just married isn't into them but now I do.  Or how they'd feel even more hurt when they feel manipulated and/or deceived by them.  As if it's all just a casual dating situation where no one is invested emotionally so what do they expect?  Well, it's NOT that kind of situation.  These are supposed to be marriages, this is not "casual dating at first sight"! 

Now we have Michael acting like he's not sure he's ready for marriage.  Well, duh, then why did he go on a show and get married in the first place?  Is the truth that he's just not ready to marry CHLOE?  Well then tell her that, don't beat around the bush.  More vagueness here and not enough honesty.  If he just has cold feet well that's another thing, but If he thinks he's softening the blow he's wrong. 

And Brennan, the great self-appointed relationship advice giver tells Chloe on the Afterparty to look at her relationship like it's just dating.  Unbelievable.  The blind leading the blind here.  No wonder all of these people have been unsuccessful.

[JKL845]

Becca and Michael should get together. 

[JenE4]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I realized why I can't stand the guys this season.  For all their lofty talk and this "mature" act they put on, it's obvious to me that most if not all of them don't know one thing about how a woman works much less how to treat one.  I've detested Brennan all season but even I was shocked when he said he couldn't understand why Emily was so upset and crying after she had agreed that they were both going to be "just friends".  Like just because she went along with it to please him and not make a fuss doesn't mean that she can turn her feelings off so easily just to make him feel better.  Deep down she is still hurt because she actually had genuine hopes that it might work out with him.  Emily may not have ever had a serious relationship but he's acting like he never even met a girl much less dated one!

I feel like I never used to have to explain to anyone why someone might be hurt when they realize the person they just married isn't into them but now I do.  Or how they'd feel even more hurt when they feel manipulated and/or deceived by them.  As if it's all just a casual dating situation where no one is invested emotionally so what do they expect?  Well, it's NOT that kind of situation.  These are supposed to be marriages, this is not "casual dating at first sight"! 

Now we have Michael acting like he's not sure he's ready for marriage.  Well, duh, then why did he go on a show and get married in the first place?  Is the truth that he's just not ready to marry CHLOE?  Well then tell her that, don't beat around the bush.  More vagueness here and not enough honesty.  If he just has cold feet well that's another thing, but If he thinks he's softening the blow he's wrong. 

And Brennan, the great self-appointed relationship advice giver tells Chloe on the Afterparty to look at her relationship like it's just dating.  Unbelievable.  The blind leading the blind here.  No wonder all of these people have been unsuccessful.

Fair points. I do have a different take on Brennan’s “just look at it like dating” advice. I think the point is Michael is freaking himself out over the prospect of deciding on forever after knowing someone a few weeks. Reframing it as would you want to continue dating her takes that pressure off that Michael could very easily say yes. They can continue their relationship one day at a time after decision day. I think that’s what Michael has been trying to do with Chloe with delaying moving in. He’s afraid to give up his apartment and merge lives with someone he really likes but barely knows. But if they continue to be in a relationship, 6 months down the line is enough time to move in with a girlfriend wife. From Chloe’s perspective, she’s ready to continue the marriage. Michael really cares about her and enjoys their relationship but it sounds like filming is exhausting for him. He uses the word “draining” because I’m sure it’s a lot to work all day and come home and have serious conversations for hours in front of the cameras. He wants to see what normal life with Chloe will be like without that added pressure before breaking his lease. Yes, these people signed up for Married at First Sight, not Dating at First Sight. But I’m sure once you’re actually in it, it has to hit you that you barely know this person. So I do think framing it as do you want to continue building a relationship with this person and see how it goes is easier for many people to say yes to than deciding on till death do we part right then and there.

ETA: Not only is it the pressure of saying yes to Chloe after a few weeks. It’s also signing on to her hypothetical 5 kiddos and 7,240 wounded animals.

Edited March 21 by JenE4

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

Fair points. I do have a different take on Brennan’s “just look at it like dating” advice. I think the point is Michael is freaking himself out over the prospect of deciding on forever after knowing someone a few weeks. Reframing it as would you want to continue dating her takes that pressure off that Michael could very easily say yes. They can continue their relationship one day at a time after decision day. I think that’s what Michael has been trying to do with Chloe with delaying moving in. He’s afraid to give up his apartment and merge lives with someone he really likes but barely knows. But if they continue to be in a relationship, 6 months down the line is enough time to move in with a girlfriend wife. From Chloe’s perspective, she’s ready to continue the marriage. Michael really cares about her and enjoys their relationship but it sounds like filming is exhausting for him. He uses the word “draining” because I’m sure it’s a lot to work all day and come home and have serious conversations for hours in front of the cameras. He wants to see what normal life with Chloe will be like without that added pressure before breaking his lease. Yes, these people signed up for Married at First Sight, not Dating at First Sight. But I’m sure once you’re actually in it, it has to hit you that you barely know this person. So I do think framing it as do you want to continue building a relationship with this person and see how it goes is easier for many people to say yes to than deciding on till death do we part right then and there.

ETA: Not only is it the pressure of saying yes to Chloe after a few weeks. It’s also signing on to her hypothetical 5 kiddos and 7,240 wounded animals.

Thanks for the explanation but none of that is lost on me.  If all Michael is feeling is cold feet then I can see using that as a kind of "mind trick" to relieve his panic from that for now until decision day, but if he's really unsure and looking for an out so he could feel better about potentially pulling the plug soon after decision day if he says yes and things get tough, then that's not cool.  These people took vows to stick with the relationship "as long as they both shall live", not to "just try it out until they might buy it" or "to take it one day at a time" after they say "yes" on decision day.  These are real marriages.  If by the end of the 8 weeks they still have some doubt that they can honor that aspect they shouldn't stay married.  It's not fair to their partner, especially if they're completely invested in it themselves.  They should get divorced, date and see what happens from there in that case if their partner is OK with that.  If not, oh well, those are the risks you take.  Remember the old saying that went something like, "let something go, if it comes back to you it's yours, if it doesn't it never was"?  You can't get around that in relationships.

I am married for almost 44 years and it hasn't always been a walk in the park.  This is what commitment is all about.  I think people keep wanting to get around that on this show and in the world in general these days by re-defining these vows, but they are very clear and not for lightweights.  If you're not up to it by the time the 8 weeks are up, say "no" on decision day.  If you can't make a lifelong commitment to someone that soon but you still like and care about them, then say "no" and see if you can redefine the relationship if the person is willing.

I don't think Michael or Chloe are that invested in each other and are obviously not in love, at least not yet.  If either of them still isn't sure by decision day I think they'd be better off getting divorced and dating.  Nothing wrong with that, but I think the extra commitment of marriage might be putting too much pressure on them to be ready for it that soon and that in and of itself might sabotage the relationship.  But a lot can happen in a few weeks so we'll just have to see how it turns out.

[Empress1]

10 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

But all credit to him for basically asking Orion why he cares so much about pursuing a "friendship" with  Lauren. Those two have no need to ever been in contact again. He wasn't even respectful to Lauren when they were married. Why be so fixated on "friendship" with her now?

This is my thing. These couples weren’t friends before; there’s no need to be friends now. Most of them don’t actually like each other. Clare, read the room - Cameron hates you. He doesn’t want to hear from you, on his birthday or otherwise. Just be done! Do these people not take space after a breakup??

Lauren is going to be just fine. (She and Michael are my favorite cast members.) Love her cutting off Orion and going out on dates. (I’ve heard of cucumbers on the eyes but I’ve never seen cucumbers on the legs during a pedi.)

10 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Oh - and finding a rental that will allow three dogs (including a restricted breed) and two cats is going to be difficult.

I think most rentals have per pet/per month pet rent, so it’s an additional cost. And a lot of rentals limit number and/or breed of pets. It’s a legitimate concern.

Edited March 21 by Empress1

[Elizzikra]

8 hours ago, JKL845 said:

Becca and Michael should get together. 

I think Michael and Lauren…

[Retired at last]

Sorry, @Elizzikra, but the idea of Michael and Lauren together just made me laugh. Those two with all their flowery word salad and deep philosophies would drive me crazy! Neither one of them (to me) show any real emotion (even when Lauren was crying over Orion) and have relatively no affect. Lauren seems happy now and you can see it in her face, unlike when she was with Orion. He needs to just go away. Michael was a more tolerable version of Orion, for some reason. Orion is just an idiot weirdo.

But, I also can't see Michael with Becca. She is way too weepy and needy for him.

I just can't believe this show is still going on so far past D Day. I'm sure it is because they have to fill with something while we wait for Michael and Chloe to give their decisions, which I think we all know what they will be. 

I wonder what happened to the deep scar that Emily was supposed to have. There was NOTHING on her face where that injury was.

It was about time that Clarapist finally got the message that Cam didn't want to see/hear from her EVER. Same with the other soon-to-be exes. Austin seemed to still think he could be in some kind of friendship with Becca, but that won't/shouldn't happen. As long as she sees him, she will want him (why???) and she won't get over him. All of the women looked better and were not so stressed out.

Two weeks in a row with Chloe on Afterparty was two weeks too many. I still don't like her and she really does seem to have a superiority complex. For them to go looking for a house to rent ($4500 a month???), I think, put any idea of a future with Michael off the table. Of course, if you are married, you should be living with your spouse, but I get why Michael doesn't want to make that kind of commitment with someone he barely knows. I didn't see the session with Dr. Pia last week, but I do like that she called Chloe fake and not "authentic." (If I ever have to hear that word again, it will be too soon.) That word seems to be this season's version of "vulnerable," which was the word-of-the-day for a few seasons.

So, if next week is the final regular show (D Day for the last two), then I wonder what happens next. As I have said before, there is no need for a reunion since they are all seeing each other all the time. It would be great if it ended there, but I think I read that there are shows through April.

[Yeah No]

36 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

But, I also can't see Michael with Becca. She is way too weepy and needy for him.

I don't necessarily assume that Becca would be that way with another guy, especially one like Michael.  If he genuinely liked her and didn't bring out all her insecurities I could see that working.  For sure, both Becca and Austin brought the worst out in each other but with other people they might be very different.  I have never questioned my husband's love and commitment to me in decades, but other men before him did make me feel insecure, and always because I had a good reason to feel insecure!  And I'm not even that insecure as people go, maybe average!  So it's not something I think would necessarily repeat itself with other men with Becca.  Now I think Austin does have some qualities that he might repeat in other relationships no matter who he's with, but that's another story.

[sara416]

I know I live in a low COL state, but either I didn't realize how low or Denver is insanely high. $4800 a month for a RENTAL? That's well over twice my mortgage and our house was a new build. That was a lot of yard they had for sure, but I had to rewind that and make sure I heard the price correctly. 

[Yeah No]

53 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

For them to go looking for a house to rent ($4500 a month???), I think, put any idea of a future with Michael off the table.

Man, that was high and I live in CT where rents are in the top 5 in the country!  I took a look and the average single family house rental in Denver is pretty high, higher than most of CT unless you're talking about Greenwich or Westport!  On price alone that would put anyone off.  We all get why Michael doesn't want to make that kind of commitment to someone he barely knows but that's the whole premise of the show.  If you can't do that don't weasel around with a half-assed commitment in a marriage where you took a vow to be committed until death do you part.  Get divorced and just date until you're ready to live together.  Take it one step at a time!

[Racj82]

11 hours ago, JKL845 said:

Becca and Michael should get together. 

None of these people are ready for marriage except for maybe Lauren

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Sorry, @Elizzikra, but the idea of Michael and Lauren together just made me laugh. Those two with all their flowery word salad and deep philosophies would drive me crazy! Neither one of them (to me) show any real emotion (even when Lauren was crying over Orion) and have relatively no affect. 

Oh - I don't want to watch it. I just think they would enjoy it. It would drive me nuts too, although Michael doesn't really bother me. 

Quote

Man, that was high and I live in CT where rents are in the top 5 in the country!  I took a look and the average single family house rental in Denver is pretty high, higher than most of CT unless you're talking about Greenwich or Westport!

I live in a high COL, close in suburb and that's about right for a house that size, with that size lot, in that condition. I actually loved the house but that is a lot to pay in rent. I wasn't sure the landlord would want five pets in there either. You could tell that Michael wasn't into it at all - whether it was the house itself or just the idea of renting when he still has time on his lease or the idea of moving in permanently with Chloe. He just was not feeling it.

[Yeah No]

7 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I live in a high COL, close in suburb and that's about right for a house that size, with that size lot, in that condition. I actually loved the house but that is a lot to pay in rent. I wasn't sure the landlord would want five pets in there either. You could tell that Michael wasn't into it at all - whether it was the house itself or just the idea of renting when he still has time on his lease or the idea of moving in permanently with Chloe. He just was not feeling it.

Oh, it's right if you're talking about Westchester County, NY or Fairfield, CT, or other high priced areas, but we're talking about Denver here!  Sorry, I didn't realize that Denver was on a par cost of living-wise with places like that.  We expect prices to be high near NYC and other major cities, but Denver isn't even on the top list of those on most sites while places close to the NYC area are. 

Michael said something under his breath about the house not being modern enough for him.  He was surprised at her taste.  I thought the house was nice but I also like a more modern look too.  He should have clarified with her as to whether she was open to a more modern style, but I don't think he's ready to live with her period so he's not ready to talk about that either.  He may jump to an erroneous conclusion based on this experience, though!

[kristen111]

13 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I realized why I can't stand the guys this season.  For all their lofty talk and this "mature" act they put on, it's obvious to me that most if not all of them don't know one thing about how a woman works much less how to treat one.  I've detested Brennan all season but even I was shocked when he said he couldn't understand why Emily was so upset and crying after she had agreed that they were both going to be "just friends".  Like just because she went along with it to please him and not make a fuss doesn't mean that she can turn her feelings off so easily just to make him feel better.  Deep down she is still hurt because she actually had genuine hopes that it might work out with him.  Emily may not have ever had a serious relationship but he's acting like he never even met a girl much less dated one!

I feel like I never used to have to explain to anyone why someone might be hurt when they realize the person they just married isn't into them but now I do.  Or how they'd feel even more hurt when they feel manipulated and/or deceived by them.  As if it's all just a casual dating situation where no one is invested emotionally so what do they expect?  Well, it's NOT that kind of situation.  These are supposed to be marriages, this is not "casual dating at first sight"! 

Now we have Michael acting like he's not sure he's ready for marriage.  Well, duh, then why did he go on a show and get married in the first place?  Is the truth that he's just not ready to marry CHLOE?  Well then tell her that, don't beat around the bush.  More vagueness here and not enough honesty.  If he just has cold feet well that's another thing, but If he thinks he's softening the blow he's wrong. 

And Brennan, the great self-appointed relationship advice giver tells Chloe on the Afterparty to look at her relationship like it's just dating.  Unbelievable.  The blind leading the blind here.  No wonder all of these people have been unsuccessful.

I’m wondering what’s the real reason these guys go on a show as this one in the first place.  Are they trying to test for an acting gig or what?  There are many other ways to meet a spouse .. why marry one unseen?  Makes no sense to me.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Oh, it's right if you're talking about Westchester County, NY or Fairfield, CT, or other high priced areas, but we're talking about Denver here!  Sorry, I didn't realize that Denver was on a par cost of living-wise with places like that.  We expect prices to be high near NYC and other major cities, but Denver isn't even on the top list of those on most sites while places close to the NYC area are. 

I don't know much about Denver but have recently had reason to spend some time there. I think it's become pretty popular and housing is pretty expensive - at least in the close-in Denver suburbs. There are some large tech companies out there, so people with pretty high-paying jobs that will pay top dollar for housing. We saw some new-build communities that are near the airport (so a good 45 minutes/hour outside Denver) that were starting at $1 million. They looked like good sized houses, though they were close together and not a lot of land. 

Quote

Michael said something under his breath about the house not being modern enough for him.  He was surprised at her taste.  I thought the house was nice but I also like a more modern look too.  He should have clarified with her as to whether she was open to a more modern style, but I don't think he's ready to live with her period so he's not ready to talk about that either.  He may jump to an erroneous conclusion based on this experience, though!

I'm not sure how picky he is going to be able to be if they are renting and need a place that will allow, a pit bull, two other dogs and two cats. That alone is going to limit their options. But I agree that Michael doesn't seem to have any intentions of moving in the next six months whereas I think Chloe would have signed the lease on the spot.

Quote

I’m wondering what’s the real reason these guys go on a show as this one in the first place.  Are they trying to test for an acting gig or what?  There are many other ways to meet a spouse .. why marry one unseen?  Makes no sense to me.

Well - we know what they say... what they have tried hasn't worked; they have tried everything; etc. etc. I think for a very few of them, this is true. I think of my favorites that seemed to have been on the show for the right reasons - Deonna and Greg in North Carolina; Austin and Jessica from DC. I think there are some who want to be influencers and that's why they come on the show (Good Fucking Person Alyssa from Houston for example). Maybe some want to be conventional "actors" but I think more of them are aiming for social media fame or "reality tv stardom."

[kristen111]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Thanks for the explanation but none of that is lost on me.  If all Michael is feeling is cold feet then I can see using that as a kind of "mind trick" to relieve his panic from that for now until decision day, but if he's really unsure and looking for an out so he could feel better about potentially pulling the plug soon after decision day if he says yes and things get tough, then that's not cool.  These people took vows to stick with the relationship "as long as they both shall live", not to "just try it out until they might buy it" or "to take it one day at a time" after they say "yes" on decision day.  These are real marriages.  If by the end of the 8 weeks they still have some doubt that they can honor that aspect they shouldn't stay married.  It's not fair to their partner, especially if they're completely invested in it themselves.  They should get divorced, date and see what happens from there in that case if their partner is OK with that.  If not, oh well, those are the risks you take.  Remember the old saying that went something like, "let something go, if it comes back to you it's yours, if it doesn't it never was"?  You can't get around that in relationships.

I am married for almost 44 years and it hasn't always been a walk in the park.  This is what commitment is all about.  I think people keep wanting to get around that on this show and in the world in general these days by re-defining these vows, but they are very clear and not for lightweights.  If you're not up to it by the time the 8 weeks are up, say "no" on decision day.  If you can't make a lifelong commitment to someone that soon but you still like and care about them, then say "no" and see if you can redefine the relationship if the person is willing.

I don't think Michael or Chloe are that invested in each other and are obviously not in love, at least not yet.  If either of them still isn't sure by decision day I think they'd be better off getting divorced and dating.  Nothing wrong with that, but I think the extra commitment of marriage might be putting too much pressure on them to be ready for it that soon and that in and of itself might sabotage the relationship.  But a lot can happen in a few weeks so we'll just have to see how it turns out.

I agree with everything you say.  I also think that Chloe thinks this is her last chance for marriage.  I also think she’s bat shit crazy, and Michael sees that.  It’s like she’s in LaLa land half the time.

[ChristmasJones]

This is the episode where we watch Chloe making the mistake that could be the death-blow to her relationship - she gets really intense and direct about how she is not going to tolerate not living together after d-day. This is so foolish on her part. If she really thinks Michael is the guy for her, this is the time to back off with the pressure.  She's had sex with him, she's all in emotionally, and its causing her to panic and cling even harder.

If they are the loves of each other's lives, a few months with two apartments, getting to know each other better, will only improve their relationship.  Forcing him to move in with her immediately is the exact opposite strategy of what she should be doing. If you have to force someone to do something like that, then that's a major problem. But she appears to be oblivious of all this.

Also she is not listening when he talks about the budget. She seems like she is living in la-la land.

The other thing, her idea that she will have five foster kids, particularly teens with challenging behavior. Does she have any training working with teenagers with those issues?  She'll be working a full-time job while also doing everything needed for foster kids, or does she plan to live off the money you get paid for having them and that's why she wants five.  Having five at once sounds more like a group home than a foster placement anyway (unless they were siblings).  It makes her look very foolish, IMO.  

It would be very different if she said she would like to explore being a foster parent, do the training, and then have a child in their home and see how that process goes.  That is a rational, grounded approach to something like this. I bet Michael would react very differently if she had presented it like that. 

 

[Meanomom]

18 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Okay, guys, Mea culpa. Emily does love one-night stands! 

And this is why Brennen didn't like her- no man who wants to be married wants to marry a ho or a drunk-  He didn't want to bash her on TV and yes, he looked like a bad guy but my son who is 24 saw it right away over hearing the show playing. 

Edited March 21 by Meanomom

[Starlight925]

I think Chloe thought that Michael would acquiesce to whatever her little heart desires, the 7247 animals, the 5 foster teens with behavioral issues, and living apart until she feels like moving in.

I think she thought of him as this nice guy pushover, and is sadly seeing that he's his own man, and he has thoughts and dreams of his own.

She sees herself as this great prize, and that Michael should kiss her feet and give her whatever she wants.

I'm glad to see that his haze is lifting and seeing the real her.  I didn't like her from day 1.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I don't know much about Denver but have recently had reason to spend some time there. I think it's become pretty popular and housing is pretty expensive - at least in the close-in Denver suburbs. There are some large tech companies out there, so people with pretty high-paying jobs that will pay top dollar for housing. We saw some new-build communities that are near the airport (so a good 45 minutes/hour outside Denver) that were starting at $1 million. They looked like good sized houses, though they were close together and not a lot of land. 

I haven't been there in 30 years so I'm sure a lot has changed there since then.  Obviously more than I ever knew.  I found it at #16 on one list but some of those are figured out in a weird way so it's hard to tell.

3 hours ago, kristen111 said:

I agree with everything you say.  I also think that Chloe thinks this is her last chance for marriage.  I also think she’s bat shit crazy, and Michael sees that.  It’s like she’s in LaLa land half the time.

Yeah, there's something not right there and who knows what it is?  It's hard to believe she's for real most of the time.  Actress or wacko or both, you decide!  LOL

Actually speaking of that, yesterday I froze my TV screen while a Toyota commercial was on and it was a scene with a woman driving a car and I could swear she looked just like Chloe!  So who knows, maybe she's an aspiring actress and this is her latest "role"?

3 hours ago, ChristmasJones said:

This is the episode where we watch Chloe making the mistake that could be the death-blow to her relationship - she gets really intense and direct about how she is not going to tolerate not living together after d-day. This is so foolish on her part. If she really thinks Michael is the guy for her, this is the time to back off with the pressure.  She's had sex with him, she's all in emotionally, and its causing her to panic and cling even harder.

If they are the loves of each other's lives, a few months with two apartments, getting to know each other better, will only improve their relationship.  Forcing him to move in with her immediately is the exact opposite strategy of what she should be doing. If you have to force someone to do something like that, then that's a major problem. But she appears to be oblivious of all this.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!  I agree with you about everything except I think they'd be better off doing all that without the pressure of already being married. That in and of itself can sabotage things even if Chloe backs off and stops putting her own pressure on Michael.  

3 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

I think Chloe thought that Michael would acquiesce to whatever her little heart desires, the 7247 animals, the 5 foster teens with behavioral issues, and living apart until she feels like moving in.

I think she thought of him as this nice guy pushover, and is sadly seeing that he's his own man, and he has thoughts and dreams of his own.

She sees herself as this great prize, and that Michael should kiss her feet and give her whatever she wants.

I'm glad to see that his haze is lifting and seeing the real her.  I didn't like her from day 1.

Yeah one has to wonder if she's delusional about how much he's into her or just can't read the room there.  OR as I suggested earlier, she's unconsciously sabotaging the relationship.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

And this is why Brennen didn't like her- no man who wants to be married wants to marry a ho or a drunk-  He didn't want to bash her on TV and yes, he looked like a bad guy but my son who is 24 saw it right away over hearing the show playing. 

So the men who had sex with Emily - are they also "hos" or do we save that word for women who have the gall to enjoy sex outside a committed relationship? Honestly, I despise that word and all of its misogynistic connotations and I wouldn't be proud of my young adult child for using it. I sure as hell don't want anyone trying to shame her by calling her that, even if she has sex outside a committed relationship.

Quote

I think Chloe thought that Michael would acquiesce to whatever her little heart desires, the 7247 animals, the 5 foster teens with behavioral issues, and living apart until she feels like moving in.

I am kind of with her on living apart after decision day. One of the ways I knew that I wanted to marry my husband was that I hated to separate at the end of the night. I just wanted us to be together; living daily life together and going to bed together at night. Michael isn't talking about a couple of weeks or a month - he said like 6, 7, 8 months. I wouldn't want to wait that long. 

I get the finances are tough. Unlike people who marry in conventional ways, they don't have months or years to plan this out and figure out how to not pay double rent, but I'd still rather choose one home or another and live in a smaller space until the leases are up rather than go back to separate spaces. 

[Empress1]

19 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

l like a good drag show as much as the next girl, but that metal-working thing looked cool. I think I'd rather do that. I can see drag queens any time.

Obviously we didn’t see the whole thing, but based on what we saw, I’ve seen better drag shows. I’d rather make a bottle opener too.

21 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Okay, guys, Mea culpa. Emily does love one-night stands! 

Did I miss a reference to this on the show - did she say something?

[Chatty Cake]

Oh my, a couple minutes in and Becca is glad to be in her “safe space.”

I can’t. 

[Gator Stud]

5 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I live in a high COL, close in suburb and that's about right for a house that size, with that size lot, in that condition. I actually loved the house but that is a lot to pay in rent.

Me too.  There are these basic 2 bedroom apartments down the road from me that go for $18K/month and they are just sooo basic. Studios are like $5K.  Nothing to write home about. Some houses rent for $100K/month here, but at least they look above average.

[Elizzikra]

41 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Obviously we didn’t see the whole thing, but based on what we saw, I’ve seen better drag shows. I’d rather make a bottle opener too.

Did I miss a reference to this on the show - did she say something?

I don't remember but there was a conversation with her friend about an upcoming vacation and about how her friend would let her "have the room" if she needed it for a night.

I actually always thought that Emily's past sex life and her drinking were Brennon's problem with her. What I disliked intensely was his absolute refusal to tell her that and his insistence that not telling her was somehow "protecting" her. She seems to own her lifestyle and she is really open about it. If he judges her negatively for it (which I think he does) or even if he doesn't but just feels that her attitudes about sex and alcohol don't align with hers (they don't but I think Brennon feels like he is a superior person because of it), that reflects badly on him. He didn't want to deal with that judgment and how he appeared on camera was more important to him than the marriage and the actual person who married him. 

[Chatty Cake]

Good for Claire, getting back to the gym and taking her mind off Cameron. 
When he didn’t text a reply to her happy birthday she should have texted again and told him to have a sucky birthday. 

[Chatty Cake]

4 hours ago, Meanomom said:

And this is why Brennen didn't like her- no man who wants to be married wants to marry a ho or a drunk-  He didn't want to bash her on TV and yes, he looked like a bad guy but my son who is 24 saw it right away over hearing the show playing. 

Yes! I started out on Emily’s side but as time went by, I saw her for what she was. A drunken floozy who was hounding her new husband to be intimate after embarrassing herself. She should have presented like a lady who had only had a couple of boyfriends that just didn’t work out. To admit to a bunch one night stands is foolish and makes her look bad.

[Elizzikra]

2 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

Yes! I started out on Emily’s side but as time went by, I saw her for what she was. A drunken floozy who was hounding her new husband to be intimate after embarrassing herself. She should have presented like a lady who had only had a couple of boyfriends that just didn’t work out. To admit to a bunch one night stands is foolish and makes her look bad.

Floozy? Is it like 1947? Emily by likes sex. Big deal. Why start a marriage off with a lie. If Brennan can’t handle her sexual past then that’s his shortcoming, not hers. He was full of shit when he said he wasn’t telling what he didn’t like to “protect” her. She’s not embarrassed about her drinking or her sex life. Why should she be?

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

 

Did I miss a reference to this on the show - did she say something?

When Emily was video chatting her friend about their upcoming vacation, the friend said she would give Emily the room when she hooked up with guys—seemingly implying this is a standard practice on their girls’ trips. Emily said she’s turning over a new leaf and won’t be hooking up with guys on this trip. I posted that comment because I got a little snarky in a prior thread in response to the insinuation that Emily “loves” one night stands. All around there’s been a lot of assumptions about what these people are like in real life (including their disposition, work ethic, and body odor?!), and it’s frankly kind of ridiculous. However, the commentators were right about that one, I guess.

[Retired at last]

35 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

When he didn’t text a reply to her happy birthday she should have texted again and told him to have a sucky birthday. 

She said that he later texted her "Thanks." So, he did respond, but there was no warmth or interest.

I think Brennan mentioned one time, either on the show or the Afterparty that he didn't think anyone in their 30s should still be such a party girl, so we knew very early that he didn't like that.

[Chatty Cake]

6 minutes ago, Retired at last said:

She said that he later texted her "Thanks." So, he did respond, but there was no warmth or interest.

I think Brennan mentioned one time, either on the show or the Afterparty that he didn't think anyone in their 30s should still be such a party girl, so we knew very early that he didn't like that.

Thanks, it may take me a few attempts to get through the episode. I turned it off because it’s too early for me to fall asleep!

 

36 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

Floozy? Is it like 1947? Emily by likes sex. Big deal. Why start a marriage off with a lie. If Brennan can’t handle her sexual past then that’s his shortcoming, not hers. He was full of shit when he said he wasn’t telling what he didn’t like to “protect” her. She’s not embarrassed about her drinking or her sex life. Why should she be?

Because most men still want a nice girl. They don’t want a wife who has been all over town. It’s a little old fashioned but nothing wrong with that. 

[StatisticalOutlier]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

If Brennan can’t handle her sexual past then that’s his shortcoming, not hers.

I would call it a preference rather than a shortcoming. 

2 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I get the finances are tough. Unlike people who marry in conventional ways, they don't have months or years to plan this out and figure out how to not pay double rent,

From personal experience, I can say that Denver housing costs are high.  Michael said that if they got that house, each of them would be paying $250 more per month than they already are, and my math says they're currently each paying $2,000 in rent.  I always think of having two people moving in together as reducing the overall housing cost, not more than doubling it.

I looked at rents in the building where the show rented the apartments (from the product placement I always thought it was Sen-i-ral but it's Sentral--logo fail on that one), and a 1-bedroom 1-bath is between $2,100 and $2,500 a month, and the 2-2s go for between $3,000 and $5,000 a month.  A whole house, albeit not above a Whole Foods, for $4,500 doesn't sound that bad.

[Maximadc]

I remember renting 2 bedroom apartments with a garage in Loveland for less than 1000. It was long time ago

[Maximadc]

Chloe makes bizarre facial expressions when nervous. It is especially weird when she switches from smiling to serious face in no time. It makes me think that all her cheerfulness is fake.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Because most men still want a nice girl. They don’t want a wife who has been all over town. It’s a little old fashioned but nothing wrong with that. 

So a girl who has had some number of sexual relationships is not "nice?" I think there is a lot wrong with that, actually. It's a misogynistic, patriarchal and judgmental attitude, especially when the same people who judge women as not "nice" don't similarly judge men for the same behavior. It's not a quaint, "old fashioned" notion. 

Quote

I would call it a preference rather than a shortcoming. 

Deciding that Emily's sexual past told him everything he needed to know about her character is a shortcoming, not a preference. Judging someone as "less than" because they view sex differently than you do is a shortcoming, not a preference. And Brennan's total inability to actually discuss this with Emily was definitely a shortcoming, particularly with his continued insistence that he was somehow protecting her.

Quote

I remember renting 2 bedroom apartments with a garage in Loveland for less than 1000. It was long time ago

My first apartment out of college was a 2 bedroom, 1 bath in a great neighborhood for $810/month. I had a roommate and we split the rent evenly; I thought it was astronomical. It was a really long time ago. And later, there were a lot of bugs.

[kristen111]

8 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

I think Chloe thought that Michael would acquiesce to whatever her little heart desires, the 7247 animals, the 5 foster teens with behavioral issues, and living apart until she feels like moving in.

I think she thought of him as this nice guy pushover, and is sadly seeing that he's his own man, and he has thoughts and dreams of his own.

She sees herself as this great prize, and that Michael should kiss her feet and give her whatever she wants.

I'm glad to see that his haze is lifting and seeing the real her.  I didn't like her from day 1.

I really think she needs psychiatric help.  Her thoughts are all over the place.  He’s seeing that now and is afraid to go forward.  Them both living apart just might put her over the edge.  I’m wondering how many men she’s been through.

[Quiet1]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

 

Deciding that Emily's sexual past told him everything he needed to know about her character is a shortcoming, not a preference. Judging someone as "less than" because they view sex differently than you do is a shortcoming, not a preference. And Brennan's total inability to actually discuss this with Emily was definitely a shortcoming, particularly with his continued insistence that he was somehow protecting her.

 

I agree with the first part of your post but not this part. A woman can decide that a man in his 30's who NEVER had a romantic relationship but ONLY one night stands, isn't the right partner for her and a man can do so as well. There were other issues Brennan had with Emily but if this was the only one, that's okay too. 

It doesn't mean that he thinks Emily is "less than" because of this, just not the one for him. You are assuming that about him. Also they both decided off camera not to talk about certain things, so maybe he did talk to her about it. And maybe there are other things he hasn't revealed that he is protecting her about.  It may not have told him everything he needed to know about her character, but it may have been enough to know she's not a good match for him. 

To me, Brennan and Clare come across as cold. But I really don't think either one are bad people. Not a good partner for some, but probably perfect for someone else. 

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

7 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

If Brennan can’t handle her sexual past then that’s his shortcoming, not hers.

I would call it a preference rather than a shortcoming. 

I would call it the ol' male/female double standard here.  What's good for the goose should be good for the gander but I don't think that's true in Brennan's case.  He treats Emily with too much disrespect for it to be just a "preference".  She may not have his values but she at least deserves his respect.  It feels like the ol' madonna/whore complex with him.

5 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Deciding that Emily's sexual past told him everything he needed to know about her character is a shortcoming, not a preference. Judging someone as "less than" because they view sex differently than you do is a shortcoming, not a preference. And Brennan's total inability to actually discuss this with Emily was definitely a shortcoming, particularly with his continued insistence that he was somehow protecting her.

Brennan is full of shit that he was "protecting Emily".  From what?  Being seen as a "bad girl"?  It's obvious he disapproved of her, not just had a different preference.  The only person he was protecting is himself.  I just can't get over the narcissism of this prick.  How inflated is his image of himself?   Would he say that about a guy friend that had her lifestyle?  I doubt it.  It wouldn't even be an issue.  He would still respect the guy and not treat him with disdain I am sure.  That's the double standard! 

Oh, and it's not just men that perpetuate that double standard.  Many women seem to expect women to be all prim and proper while the men can go out and "sow their wild oats" at will and still get their respect even if they don't share their values.  I detest that attitude as much in women as men!  I thought we were beyond that as a society.  Most young people don't give a crap.  What you do in the bedroom is your business, not theirs.  Brennan is living in the past.  

And then with all this BS about "protecting" Emily Brennan wonders why she's "seeing red" with him now?  He treats her with disrespect and then doesn't understand why she's angry with him?  And now he's copping a victim stance as if Emily's unfairly persecuting him.  Unbelievable!   These men can't look in the mirror for 5 seconds!  They'll spin everything around to look innocent!  That's what they call "table turning" in a relationship! 

Brennan is not just a guy that was poorly matched.  He has bad qualities for any relationship.  The only thing wrong with Emily's behavior is that her lifestyle is not conducive to a marital relationship.  People need to settle down and stop partying so much when they marry or it ends up conflicting with their marital commitment.  If that's all that Brennan was against I'd say OK but he obviously didn't respect her one bit.