S03.E01: The Owl

[Annber03]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I agree. I'd be perfectly fine with her being in some flashbacks, but I want her stay in Heaven.  Jay said  Sam was trying to help them move on. What's the point of moving on if you come back?

That's presuming that's where she even is, though, or that she actually has moved on and isn't instead just wandering around somewhere. And even if there is a possibility she's moved on, Sam may want to help them do that, but theyv'e also become like family to her, so t's kind of a tough situation for her. 

[7-Zark-7]

The ads shown the week before this episode telegraphed Flower’s exit. She wasn’t in any of the group cast shots. I wasn’t particularly drawn to her character, though. 
 

it’s a shame it wasn’t more moving, the British writers know how to suck a person off.  

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

If you recall, when they brought the maid back in the seance, they had only twelve hours to send her back or else she'd be stuck there permanently. I think it will be something similar with Flower.

That could be interesting. Especially if Flower does want to go back to the other side but either Thor does something that prevents her from going back in time, or, being Flower, she forgets to go back in time and ends up stuck back as a ghost. 

Personally, I'm okay if Flower doesn't come back. I do think that is had to happen eventually and will move the story forward. While we've seen that they want to move on, we also see how they are a family (and seem to have gotten far closer with Sam and Jay around) so there has to be some serious conflict . 

I'm just dreading how long we'll have depressed Thorfinn. It is bad for his character to "get over it" but I also don't want him moping around or lashing out for a whole season. This show is my escapism. 

[iMonrey]

23 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooo! I like the idea of Sam and Jay tracking down something that Flower left behind. Maybe Jay's sister could help too.

In one episode Sam got a letter from Flower's brother. So we know he's alive and, presumably, Sam knows where he is. He could possibly have something that belonged to her. 

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

If it is Flower sleeping in the attic, the reveal could include a flashback to Crash's point of view, showing just a wisp of dark hair. 

Unlike Stephanie, Flower and the other ghosts do not sleep for days/weeks/months on end. Flower would have woken up at some point during this episode, if not the next or the one after that. Honestly, I think the "Stephanie is really Flower" theory is a dead end. The writing on this show is really quite good, and it's clear they wanted to name check all the other possibilities. I don't think they would have written such an emotional arc for Thor and the others just to pull the rug out from under us and go "fooled ya!" 

[Neptune]

Hetty gets out of being flower’s new roommate. Will Alberta want a new punishment? Will they even switch rooms now? It was sweet how they held hands to comfort each other this episode. 

[Mabinogia]

20 minutes ago, Neptune said:

Hetty gets out of being flower’s new roommate

New conspiracy theory! Hetty got Flower sucked off! Flower will at some point come back in order to confront Hetty. "But why? We were going to braid each others hair and sing songs" Hetty's response "You just answered your own question. I'm not needed here." Walks out before any of the others can attack her. 

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Neptune said:

Hetty gets out of being flower’s new roommate. Will Alberta want a new punishment? Will they even switch rooms now? It was sweet how they held hands to comfort each other this episode. 

Yeah, that's one of the things 'I'm most sad about with Flower being gone, at least for now - I was looking forward to seeing her and Hetty being roommates :D! It would be perfect for Alberta and Hetty to become roommates, though, given their recent tension over the reveal of who killed Alberta - if there's still any lingering tension or things they need to work out from that, this is as good an opportunity as any for them to do so. 

I also wonder if we'll get more of Nancy interactiong with Alberta and Flower going forward, 'cause as of now, there's just the two women to the five men among the main ghosts, so I can see Nancy showing up more to try and balance things out a little. 

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The writing on this show is really quite good, and it's clear they wanted to name check all the other possibilities. I don't think they would have written such an emotional arc for Thor and the others just to pull the rug out from under us and go "fooled ya!" 

They would if this storyline turns out to be more than it initially appears, if it turns out nobody actually did get sucked off, or if we learn that whatever happened is similar to that experience, but not quite the same. Plus, given how often the ghosts have talked about wanting to move on, if they're even temporarily threatened with the idea of someone in their little group leaving for good, the show may want to explore how that affects their actions and relationships with each other, or have them starting to refelct on and realize the idea that maybe they're not quite as reasdy to move on as they initially thought they were. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Plus, given how often the ghosts have talked about wanting to move on,

They don't all talk about it with the same frequency or desire, though.  Hetty says it a lot, far more than those who've been there even longer than her.  I don't remember Flower ever talking about it.  She's stuck at being so high she can barely remember from one moment to the next, so eternity is a lot easier on her than the average ghost.

Edited February 20 by Bastet

[iMonrey]

I got a kick out of Trevor being annoyed with the basement ghosts acting like they knew Jay and Sam. "They're ours!"

[kathyk2]

I like Nancy in small doses but I don't think her character is good enough to join the main cast. The main ghosts can make you laugh one minute and then cry the next. I don't think Nancy has that range. I'd like to see Shelia pay a live descendent of Flower.

[appositival]

11 hours ago, Bastet said:

She's stuck at being so high she can barely remember from one moment to the next, so eternity is a lot easier on her than the average ghost.

I would like to see a "visitation" from an un-stoned Flower to see what she was like and tie up some loose ends. Other than that wouldn't mind this being only a dream that Stephanie is having, or however the writers decide to go forward. I liked Flower's non sequiturs, but I could live without them.

Edited February 20 by appositival

[chaifan]

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The writing on this show is really quite good, and it's clear they wanted to name check all the other possibilities. I don't think they would have written such an emotional arc for Thor and the others just to pull the rug out from under us and go "fooled ya!" 

I agree with you, in theory.  But...  I think this is a plot of convenience.  Sheila Carrasco would be nuts to give up this gig, but I can easily see her saying hey, I need some bonding time with the new kiddo, so can you write me out for at least the first half of the season?  Likewise, the producers would be nuts to write off (permanently) a female cast member who just had a baby.   But my main reason for thinking this is a fake out is that there really is no reason to mess with the cast at this point.  They've got a successful show, so why mess with it if it wasn't necessary? 

I also think the writing is really good, which is why I can see this being a fakeout.  The show has stated that at the end of Season 2, the writers didn't know which ghost was going to be sucked off.  Once writing started, they knew about Sheila's pregnancy, and that was factored into the decision.

I think the bit with Crash popping his head into the attic was purposely written to let the viewers think the Flower/Stephanie mix up is a possibility.  I also think the placement of Stephanie and Ralph kissing in the "previously on" segment was purposeful, and no one really name checked Ralph. 

As I said earlier in the thread, I'd much prefer this to be a case of mistaken identity and have Flower wander in from being off somewhere, then for them to have to come up with a convoluted way to bring her "back".  Unless SC has specifically asked to be permanently reduced or completely written off, I think that we'll see Flower back - for good - by the end of the season. 

Bottom line, no one here really knows, we're all just speculating, and our own internal hopes of what we want to see drives that speculation. 

 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, appositival said:

I liked Flower's non sequiturs, but I could live without them.

But could Thor "live" without Flower's non-sequiturs?😪

 

50 minutes ago, chaifan said:

…Sheila Carrasco would be nuts to give up this gig, but I can easily see her saying hey, I need some bonding time with the new kiddo, so can you write me out for at least the first half of the season?  Likewise, the producers would be nuts to write off (permanently) a female cast member who just had a baby.   But my main reason for thinking this is a fake out is that there really is no reason to mess with the cast at this point.  They've got a successful show, so why mess with it if it wasn't necessary?… 

Exactly how I see it.
Back on FanForum in the late 90s-early-00s we had a saying about how if 2 or more forum posters came up with the same theory independently, it was likely to come to pass.😉

But we were discussing a TV show that had spiraled down into mediocrity, and since we all seem to agree that:

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The writing on this show is really quite good

I do anticipate some un-anticpate-able twist. 

Edited February 20 by shapeshifter

[Skooma]

On 2/18/2024 at 4:17 PM, Katy M said:

I agree. I'd be perfectly fine with her being in some flashbacks, but I want her stay in Heaven.  Jay said  Sam was trying to help them move on. What's the point of moving on if you come back?

So the actress can come back to work on a show she too loves and which is a giant hit.  So a show that is top of it's game doesn't start to shoot itself in the foot by making some radical change.  So a character I have seen the writers turn from a cardboard silly stereotype early in Season 1 into a funny, full fledged presence on this show continues to entertain me.

On 2/18/2024 at 4:30 PM, 7-Zark-7 said:

it’s a shame it wasn’t more moving, the British writers know how to suck a person off.  

The British actress actually left for good to do other projects.  So a bit of apples and oranges that way. 

Plus the British ghosts only mourned for one big episode then never mentioned her again basically.  Whereas there are hints that Flower's disappearance will effect the American ghosts for a much longer period. 

Also shows the diversity reactions one can have to loss from Thor's immediate emotions to just barely registering that this could be true like at the intellectual level but may well grow on you over the weeks ahead for some others.

I always was in the latter camp in my real life with loss.  It never hit me right away and I couldn't understand people that ran around all emotional and crying and such immediately.  I still can't.  I don't have the "immediate emotional reaction" gene in me I guess.  Mine is slow and time delayed.  🤷‍♂️

Edited February 20 by Skooma

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

But my main reason for thinking this is a fake out is that there really is no reason to mess with the cast at this point.  They've got a successful show, so why mess with it if it wasn't necessary? 

My point is that they could bring Flower back in some capacity without making this whole thing a fake-out. Like a seance or a new character. I think they have to know on some level if they pull a fast one on the audience, some of them are going to be mad. I know I will. You don't "kill off" a character and go through all the emotional fallout and then go "ha ha, tricked you!" That's bound to piss people off. I don't think they're that stupid, I think they're better than that.

As for "messing" with the formula, the writers have expressed a desire to keep the show fresh and having one of the ghosts move on is impactful in a way that can drive story and give other characters story. Even though they apparently hadn't decided which ghost would go when they wrote the 2nd season finale they knew they wanted it to be one of the main ghosts, not a recurring ghost like a basement ghost.

I'm taking them at their word, which is that Flower is really gone. For now.

Edited February 20 by iMonrey

[proserpina65]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:11 PM, Paloma said:

Unpopular opinion, maybe because I'm old and prudish, but I'm getting tired of the "sucked off" jokes. The writers seem too reliant on them, kind of like 13-year-old boys.

My best friend and I always say we're 12 year old boys at heart because we totally laugh at things like that every damn time.

 

[PaulE]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm taking them at their word, which is that Flower is really gone. For now.

I agree.  I think the door might be ajar, but for the future, not the present.  Plus, from Sheila Carrasco's perspective, Flower's absence makes sense.  The show is filmed in Montreal, and if she, like many actors, is based in L.A., she's probably been spending a working week up there and then flying back to the West Coast on weekends.  She's clearly not going to want to be away from her baby a week at a time, and if she took her along, then her husband would be the one who wouldn't be with his child--not to mention the logistical difficulties of traveling with a baby on two long-distance flights each week.  Even if she's on the East Coast, say, New York, she's still far enough away that she'd be living in Montreal most of the time.  Even if the writers hadn't been planning to have a ghost sucked off, I imagine she'd have asked the powers that be to write her off at least for the time being so she could tend to her family.

[chaifan]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

My point is that they could bring Flower back in some capacity without making this whole thing a fake-out. Like a seance or a new character. I think they have to know on some level if they pull a fast one on the audience, some of them are going to be mad.

I think our two views on this is rather funny.  You see the "fake out" (Flower not being the one who got sucked off) as them pulling a fast one, where I see the "come up with some new ghost rule to bring her back from being sucked off", like a seance or new character, as them pulling a fast one.  Inevitably, one of us will be disappointed.  Or, who knows, maybe both us will be. 

[shapeshifter]

49 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Inevitably, one of us will be disappointed.  Or, who knows, maybe both us will be. 

Or neither of the camps will be disappointed.
After all, these are better'n-the-average-bear writers.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I think our two views on this is rather funny.  You see the "fake out" (Flower not being the one who got sucked off) as them pulling a fast one, where I see the "come up with some new ghost rule to bring her back from being sucked off", like a seance or new character, as them pulling a fast one.  Inevitably, one of us will be disappointed.  Or, who knows, maybe both us will be. 

And I see both of those as pulling a fast one.

[kathyk2]

I decided to rewatch the episode. I thought Thor was great he managed to be emotional without much dialog. I hated Isaac he was so self centered. Hetty can be self absorbed but she has moments of real growth.

[Skooma]

16 hours ago, Katy M said:

And I see both of those as pulling a fast one.

And I can see neither being pulling a fast one.

It's just a comedy show with an actor wanting some maternity leave and production wanting to give her same.  No big deal to me.  However they bring her back I'm fine with it.

[Orbert]

Like most shows, this one requires a suspension of disbelief.  It's about a woman who can see and communicate with ghosts after a bizarre accident, so we're not exactly going for realism here.

But a large part of enjoying the show is that it has established "rules" for how things work and the characters must exist and solve problems while working within these rules.  Introducing a new rule or an exception to an existing one can work as long as it doesn't contradict established lore too badly.  In other words, we can accept it, and accept the updated canon.

If/when Flower comes back, I just hope it makes sense based on what we know.  "Somehow, Palpatine Flower returned" would be pretty disappointing.

[7-Zark-7]

16 hours ago, Katy M said:

And I see both of those as pulling a fast one.

I agree.  And this is why I liked the way the British version handled this. They addressed the heartbreak among all of the cast while making it very clear that ghosts leave, and it’s what all ghosts have to contend with over and over, since many of them remain far longer than their original lives.

[Skooma]

1 hour ago, 7-Zark-7 said:

I agree.  And this is why I liked the way the British version handled this. They addressed the heartbreak among all of the cast while making it very clear that ghosts leave, and it’s what all ghosts have to contend with over and over, since many of them remain far longer than their original lives.

But again the actress in the British version left for real to pursue other opportunities.  Therefore she wasn't coming back and they could do a whole very intense show about same. 

You can't go that far when you know your actress will be coming back soon or people would complain about the "hearts and flowers" episode of mourning that was suddenly made to seem less because of the return of Flower.

What I mean is that people not online about the show would think Flower is gone forever and if the "heart" part was way strong and she suddenly comes back that those majority viewers would feel like they were emotionally played if the emotions got too intense here in the US version. 

So you almost have to play it lighter here because this is an orange situation, not an apple one.

Edited February 21 by Skooma

[LexieLily]

Flower will be back somehow, she isn't gone for good. Sheila Carrasco had her baby in November and filming for this season started back in December. TPTB aren't going to throw a kamikaze on their hit show by creating a set of circumstances where Sheila could convincingly claim she was fired for getting pregnant. (Hunter Tylo had a similar-ish situation back in the day when she was fired from Melrose Place. She sued Aaron Spelling and won four million dollars in damages.) Especially considering another actress in the cast is currently pregnant. 

Sam and Jay never checked outside Woodstone from what we saw onscreen, they ran through a few rooms on the main level and took the other ghosts at their roll-call word: Crash said he checked the attic and saw Stephanie asleep, Nigel said he was in the shed checking on the other British ghosts and the basement ghosts came upstairs to show they were accounted for. We have to take Crash and Nigel at their word that Stephanie, Ralph, Baxter and Jenkins are still here on the property. Even if Flower isn't in the house, she might be lost in the woods after wandering away from the group during Walking Club (maybe you need a buddy system for Walking Club, Pete! :p) or at the property line chasing butterflies. 

I don't know what motive Crash and/or Nigel would even have for lying, but we do have to consider the option. Both of them are known for trying to make trouble. (Crash with Flower specifically and Nigel with Hetty.)

The basement ghosts served their purpose at the end talking about how Flower came down to the basement sometimes to talk, but a little of them goes a long way, TBH. Nancy's ongoing battle with the other basement ghost on pine wood versus not-pine cracks me up every time, LOL.

Trevor being super-possessive of Sam/Jay the entire episode was weirdly sweet. ("They're ours!") Like he didn't want the out-of-town cousins getting any attention from Mom and Dad :p. Also loved his annoying-little-brother shit-eating grin when he saw that Jay was annoyed he was still here :).

Of course Pete would set up a buddy system for the rare chance that one of them were to be sucked off. Troop leaders never lead anyone into a potentially dangerous situation without a buddy. Depending on when this system was implemented (before Trevor came along) there might have been only seven main house ghosts, an odd number. The buddy system doesn't work as well with odd numbers. Maybe Crash was included back then in that specific circumstance because more often than not his head is separated from his body?

Speaking of Sam/Rose's pregnancy - they used all of the standard 'hide the pregnancy' options for Rose in one episode: standing behind the desk, jackets, flow-style shirts and/or sweaters. I wonder if Rose's pregnancy isn't one of the reasons Utkarsh/Jay was more involved with the ghost plot this week as far as taking initiative to speak to Thor and help him "move on" from Flower the owl. Upgrade Jay's role for a few episodes and give Rose/Sam a break from ghost shenanigans. Seeing the montage of Flower at the end where Flower hugged Sam and walked through her made me realize that ghost shenanigans more often than not involve physical comedy...

[Ilovepie]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:25 AM, seacliffsal said:

I was very happy that it was Flower who was finally on her way to heaven as she was not my favorite character.  Now, at my table for 1, I am disappointed that it seems the character may be backed based upon the posts in the thread.  I think it makes the series stronger that there is movement within the ghost community.  I thought that seeing Crash in this episode might mean that other ghosts would be developed and I enjoyed the basement ghosts.  I personally hope that Flower is, indeed, gone and stays gone.  I may be alone in my opinion but it's my preference.

Make that a table for two! Flower has been my least favorite since the beginning and I am actually happy she's gone and would prefer for her to stay gone. Her relationship with Thor never made any sense to me compare to Hetty and Trevor or Nigel and Isaac.

I am glad they released the owl. That is a wild bird that should never have been put in a cage! I am glad Jay was pissed about Sam accommodating Thor and his ridiculous idea about it. He's pretty understanding 95% of the time, but this was ridiculous.

Favorite line was Hetty saying the family who lost their child would be joyous that there was a job opening for their younger child. I love how she plays this character - so horrible and oblivious!

[PaulE]

6 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

Make that a table for two! Flower has been my least favorite since the beginning and I am actually happy she's gone and would prefer for her to stay gone. Her relationship with Thor never made any sense to me compare to Hetty and Trevor or Nigel and Isaac.

I'm pretty much in agreement.  I wouldn't go so far to say that I'm happy Flower's gone, but I always found her the least interesting of the ghosts and I don't think I'll miss her too much.  I'm definitely on board with you about the Flower/Thor relationship, though I guess even among ghosts opposites can attract.  And I suppose when you have such limited options you might end up being attracted to someone you might not have noticed under other circumstances.  But I just never saw any believable chemistry between those two.

[Annber03]

Aw, I like Flower, and her relationship with Thor. I think they have a lot more in common than they think they do, and they also balance each other out in interesting ways. 

 

[possibilities]

They both love fish!

[hiisa]

Yall, I have an Unpopular Opinion. I thought this episode was incredibly boring and a poor choice to open the season with. I've always been vaguely indifferent to Flower--indifferent to disliking--so I wasn't really invested in her memorial. And I really dislike Nancy (and everything I've seen the actress in) so every episode she's in has been a miss for me. I'll keep watching (obviously) but this episode was disappointing after months of waiting.

[Mabinogia]

I found the ep okay but not one I'll probably rewatch when I want a laugh.

On 2/23/2024 at 11:56 PM, hiisa said:

And I really dislike Nancy

So I'm not the only one? While I don't mind the concept of the basement ghosts, I can't forking stand Nancy. Whenever she or attic ghost are on I feel my interest wavering. This is one of very few shows I give my full attention to... until one of those two show up. 

Also, I am so indifferent to Flower that, other than the fact the episode was about her being sucked off, I didn't really notice her absence. Of all the Main ghosts, I was hoping she was the one sucked off because I do think I'd have missed Thor, Sass, Isaac (and Nigel as Isaac's partner), Hetty, Alberta, Pete or Trevor. 

While I don't want the actress to lose her job I would be fine with Flower being gone. I'd also be fine with her not being gone. That's how indifferent I am. lol 

I would happily have her come back and have Nancy sucked off in her place if that were an option. 

[shapeshifter]

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I would happily have her come back and have Nancy sucked off in her place if that were an option.

I like that idea.

And when some of the other basement ghosts displayed more personality, I realized I liked them better than Nancy, so maybe one of them could become the occasional basement spokes-ghost.

I do appreciate what the character of Basement Ghost Nancy adds, but she’s so darned abrasive.

Edited February 27 by shapeshifter

[Bruinsfan]

On 2/26/2024 at 4:34 PM, Mabinogia said:

So I'm not the only one? While I don't mind the concept of the basement ghosts, I can't forking stand Nancy. Whenever she or attic ghost are on I feel my interest wavering. This is one of very few shows I give my full attention to... until one of those two show up.

Definitely reserve a seat for me at that table. Nancy is just so viscerally unpleasant to watch and listen to. And I can't even find any narratively redeeming features for Stephanie. (I have developed a fondness for Flower, but she's the ghost I would miss the least out of the main 8, so I think Sheila Carrasco's maternity leave was a happy bit of synergy.)

Edited February 28 by Bruinsfan

[Driad]

Not having a Ghost Manual, I'm puzzled. The owl in the episode was a living owl; Jay could see it and interact with it. If a living person died, maybe she could be reincarnated as a living owl. But if a ghost ascends and is replaced by an owl, wouldn't it be a ghost owl?

[Chit Chat]

On 8/16/2024 at 11:30 AM, Driad said:

But if a ghost ascends and is replaced by an owl, wouldn't it be a ghost owl?

Maybe the ghost's spirit can connect to a living animal without necessarily replacing it.  Many people believe that certain animals (cardinals, butterflies) are our deceased loved one's way of communicating with the living.  

[Rabbit Hutch]

Couldn't see Flower as an owl.  Maybe a chickadee, or a yellow finch, perhaps.  Initially I couldn't get into her character but she has grown on me.  She is rather kind, and she is a good influence on Thor.