S05.E06: The Tender Trap

[Bort]

Quote

Lorraine calls things off, Gator asks questions, Wayne makes a surprising discovery and Indira offers a new perspective.

Airdate: December 19, 2023

[AimingforYoko]

Damn, we might have to move Lorraine into the "Magnificent Bastard" category. If she actually teams up with Dorothy, that'll be a sight to behold.

Indira, what are you actually doing with that loser? I may be a straight male, but in my opinion he's not good-looking enough to put up with his bullshit.

[LadyintheLoop]

So, a local ad from Minnesota is showing in western North Dakota? (You have to wonder what the real people of Stark County think of all this.)

Dugger's  parents named their son Vivian and gave him the initials VD? How much did they hate him?

Lars is at the opposite end of the Bad Husband spectrum from Roy, but I bet he can turn vicious when he's thwarted.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by LadyintheLoop

[iMonrey]

What is up with Jon Hamm showing off his dick? Pictures of him walking down the street freeballing and the opening shot of him here leaning up against the car, a visible outline of his dick in his tight jeans. WTF.

I agree with @AimingforYoko I don't feel sorry for Indira, she should have dumped this loser long ago. I'm willing to bet she turns down Lorraine's offer too.

I wish they wouldn't have brought Trump into this, it was a little too on the nose.

Don't they plow the streets in Minnesota? I never see it snowing but the streets are always snow packed. Even Lorraine's driveway is covered in snow. Surely she has people to clean that shit up. I've lived in snowy climes, they are very good about plowing and salting.

3 minutes ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Dugger's  parents named  named their son Vivian and gave him the initials VD? How much did they hate him?

I don't get this, who is VD and who are the Dugger's? The guy at the strip club? Why did he send a shirt and that note to Vivian?

[DMK]

No wonder Indira isn’t “supportive” of her husband. Golf isn’t his first career aspiration. I also don’t know why she puts up with that ass either. After that ridiculous speech of his, I’d have told him good luck finding the kind of wife he wants somewhere else. And leave behind all the equipment that I’m paying for. 

I'm going to love if it turns out to be Lorraine and Dot vs the world. Definitely looking like a redemption arc for Lorraine where she’s getting a look at Dot’s bigger picture and will come to respect her. 

Can't say I feel sorry for Vivian, the disturbingly furry strip club addict. Lorraine warned him at that lunch what the consequences would be for crossing her. Should’ve taken his chances with Roy. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by DMK

[LadyintheLoop]

Dugger is the strip-club banker, Vivian is usually a woman's name in the US, and "VD" was once instantly recognizable as "venereal disease."

Lars spritzed on some cologne before he left for his "physical therapy." Maybe he thinks he has a better wife lined up.

It's a shame Scotty went hungry but is she really too young to be left alone? If bad guys had shown up she could have hidden; Lars would have handed her right over.

Is Dot planning to kill Roy?

[Blakeston]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't get this, who is VD and who are the Dugger's? The guy at the strip club? Why did he send a shirt and that note to Vivian?

Vivian Duggar was one of the bankers who underestimated Lorraine in a previous episode. She caught on that he was involved in illegal dealings, so she blackmailed him into selling her his bank. 

Roy wasn't happy about it, and confronted him at the strip club and intimidated him into calling off the deal. Then he sent his shirt and the note to Lorraine to gloat.

Re: Indira - it seems odd that she's just been putting up with her husband's endless stream of bullshit, and all of the debt. I know there are tough women who stay with terrible men, but nothing about her personality would suggest that she's this passive.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Blakeston

[Lonesome Rhodes]

A few asides caught my attention.  The first was that Lorraine decided to buy "Mesa Prudential" in Flagstaff.  I take that as a shout out to Better Call Saul in which a skeezy bank/financial company in the Southwest called "Mesa Verde," with a slimy CEO like Vivian, was central to the story.

Another is a super intriguing line from Munch.  He said to Roy they each did not have many words left to speak.  That sure seems like an anvil of foreshadowing to me.

I also wonder if the mention of throwing someone off a cliff in Wyoming was a reference to the "train station" in Yellowstone.

Lorraine has decided to mess with Roy's re-election.  Is there a chance she could one day choose to slate Dot for the local school board?

 

[iMonrey]

If Jennifer Jason Leigh isn't nominated for an Emmy for this role then I don't know what.

[possibilities]

So... Gator blew up Munch. 

[DMK]

I thought it was a tracker. 

[thuganomics85]

For better or worse, this season really isn't even bothering with subtly and is basically making the assholes here be at an all time worse.  Indira's husband isn't simply just a good for nothing, lazy loser, but one that spouts out a bunch of red-pill nonsense so that you just know he is going to be all over Andrew Tate and the rest of the dude-bro podcasters in a year or two.  Why Indira hasn't left him years ago is beyond me.  Not sure if that guy ever had any redeeming qualities.

Don't remember if being mentioned before that Roy is actually working for his current father-law, but that really does explain all of his overt attempts at machoism and need to be the big man on campus.  He's only this successful because he married into the right family.  And I wonder if said father in-law would be thrilled with how Roy treats his daughter....

Roy manages to strike a blow at Lorraine by ruining her deal with the bankers, but she then proceeds to snatch any victory he would have had by going full scorched Earth by not only ruining the head banker and likely his family for good, but now gunning to thwart Roy's re-election campaign.  Which, with the way things look, I don't see that being much of a problem for her.  Jennifer Jason Leigh has been crushing it these past few episodes.

Gator's need to continue to needle and gun for Munch is probably going to blow up in his face, hilariously.  I so love to hate that doofus!

 Juno Temple got to have this episode off, so I imagine Dot will be factoring back in soon in a very big way.

[Spartan Girl]

So we’re all going to ignore the fact that Dot basically got Jordan killed?

[cdnalor]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So we’re all going to ignore the fact that Dot basically got Jordan killed?

Yeah, but he was rude to the nursing staff, so screw him.  Kind of dark comic relief for this show.

[Spartan Girl]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:14 AM, cdnalor said:

Yeah, but he was rude to the nursing staff, so screw him.  Kind of dark comic relief for this show.

It wasn’t funny and he didn’t deserve that. Neither did his poor wife and family who are hysterical over his disappearance.

[dshgr]

16 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

It wasn’t funny and he didn’t deserve that. Neither did his poor wife and family who are hysterical over his disappearance.

I think you need to watch something besides Fargo if this bothers you so much.  You don't seem to get it.

[peeayebee]

I also don't get why Indira doesn't divorce Lars. Maybe the reason will be revealed to us. Things have obviously changed since they got married, but now he is absolutely useless. Racking up the debt, completely obsessed with himself and his unrealistic ambitions, and now demanding that she be his cheerleader, that that is her purpose. Frankly, his whole speech seemed overdone to me. It went on way too long. Just too much. Also it all sounded to me like he was parroting something he had seen on YouTube or heard on talk radio. I don't know if that's true.

On 12/19/2023 at 10:06 PM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

A few asides caught my attention.  The first was that Lorraine decided to buy "Mesa Prudential" in Flagstaff.  I take that as a shout out to Better Call Saul in which a skeezy bank/financial company in the Southwest called "Mesa Verde," with a slimy CEO like Vivian, was central to the story.

I missed the Mesa Prudential mention. I wonder if that was intentional.

Quote

I'm glad the patient went out snarling and cursing his captors instead of cowering in terror. 

Yes. It was a nice turnaround, where when we saw him in earlier eps, he was obnoxious and definitely unlikable. But here we're rooting him on and cheering that he is standing up to his captors.

But the best part of the ep is seeing Lorraine adjust her opinion of Dot. 

 

[Tom Holmberg]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:22 PM, iMonrey said:

What is up with Jon Hamm showing off his dick?

Maybe he wants to be the new Harvey Keitel?

[SemiCharmedLife]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:48 PM, possibilities said:

So... Gator blew up Munch. 

That seems to be the case.  Stay tuned!!!

[aghst]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:48 PM, possibilities said:

So... Gator blew up Munch. 

 

On 12/19/2023 at 10:10 PM, DMK said:

I thought it was a tracker. 

Yeah that's probably not the kind of attention Roy would want, if a car blew up in that small county.  FBI is all up in his business and they would find a remote-detonated device.

Why does Gator have that confidence?  I guess he wasn't too surprised by Roy executing that guy that they mistakenly abducted from the hospital.

So he was involved in some of the hard crime acts that Roy has perpetrated?  Otherwise, that's PTSD stuff.

Because Munch is a scary character, talks weird but he's killed a cop by just appearing out of nowhere.  Roy pays him to go away but Gator wants to mess with him?

 

I don't see Vivian walking away from a $100 million deal just because Roy intimidated him.  He may not get all the proceeds of the deal but probably a big chunk of it.  With that money he could leave that podunk county and hire private security, not have to put up with Roy again.

But now Lorraine is messing with him, screwing over Vivian's children.

And she's going to mess with the elections since Roy blocked her deal with Vivian.

So they all have millions they can throw to punish each other?  Seems like Lorraine is in the habit of hiring private armies and now she wants Indira to be the general.

Indira is savvy -- not about marriage though -- but if Lorraine wants to wage war, she'd hire some former military guy who's experienced in special ops and tactics.

So Roy casually slaps his wife in front of their children when she's "out of line."

Then the reveal at the end, all the photos of Dot's injuries at the hands of Roy.

I get that they want to show the extent of Roy's villainy but those injuries that Nadine sustained look like acts committed by someone out of control, fueled by pure rage.

But the way they've depicted Roy, he doesn't seem to get out of control.  He doesn't blow up at direct confrontations but he plots to get them back later, as he did with Lorraine.

 

 

[peeayebee]

I wondered who took those photos of Dot. Did she go (or was taken) to the hospital? Had to be. If so, the medical staff must have been told something like she was kicked by a bull (multiple times), fell down the stairs (multiple times), walked into a doorknob (multiple times). Of course the doctors and nurses would know she had been beaten up, so presumedly Roy's power would prevent any arrest. I know he's the sheriff. How big is his jurisdiction? 

I was sure that the device Gator put on Munch's car was a tracking device, but now you guys are making me think it might be an explosive device. But I'm still leaning toward a tracker. After all, it wouldn't work remotely unless Gator were fairly close by. So I still think it's a tracker.

[rur]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

 I was sure that the device Gator put on Munch's car was a tracking device, but now you guys are making me think it might be an explosive device. But I'm still leaning toward a tracker. After all, it wouldn't work remotely unless Gator were fairly close by. So I still think it's a tracker.

Either way, I don't think he's doing it with Roy's knowledge. Roy  told Gator to wait in the car, not by Munch's car. I imagine that whatever plan he has to get in Roy's good graces will backfire spectacularly. 

 

*ETA: If it's a bomb, maybe it'll blow up Indira's husband.

Edited December 24, 2023 by rur

[peeayebee]

Oh yeah, I'm sure Roy doesn't know either. Roy just wants Dot back. Gator wants Munch dead.

Gator's plan may be to track Munch, follow him to where Dot is, then kill Munch and get Dot, earning Roy's praise and respect.

Edited December 24, 2023 by peeayebee

[DMK]

13 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I know he's the sheriff. How big is his jurisdiction? 

The whole county. 

7 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Gator's plan may be to track Munch, follow him to where Dot is, then kill Munch and get Dot, earning Roy's praise and respect.

Or find out where Munch is living and ambush him there. 

[LadyintheLoop]

Maybe Gator's planning to steal the money back and light out on his own.

Interesting that he recognized Dot at the hospital and didn't betray her. Maybe, back in the day, he had a crush on his cute teenaged stepmother.

Did Gator ever get a good look at Wayne? He had to be more rattled than he wanted to admit by the darkness and the flashing lights and all the other distractions Dot arranged. When he first saw the patient, could he just have thought, "Guy looks different without his glasses"? His covered-face order suggests that he thought the man would get out alive. OTOH, maybe he was just hoping that Bowman would be the screwup for a change.

[rur]

3 hours ago, DMK said:

 

Or find out where Munch is living and ambush him there. 

Ooooh, I like this! Munch was wearing what appeared to be the old woman's coat. It's not hard for me to imagine Gator seeing someone wearing the coat and . . . 

[iMonrey]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I wondered who took those photos of Dot. Did she go (or was taken) to the hospital? Had to be.

That's a good question. It's probably just for the sake of convenience to the story that those pictures even exist because they suggest police were called in and took the photos as evidence. I don't know who else would have taken them. The hospital staff itself wouldn't do that as a matter of procedure. Maybe police were trying to get Dot to press charges against Roy and she refused.

[aghst]

11 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

That's a good question. It's probably just for the sake of convenience to the story that those pictures even exist because they suggest police were called in and took the photos as evidence. I don't know who else would have taken them. The hospital staff itself wouldn't do that as a matter of procedure. Maybe police were trying to get Dot to press charges against Roy and she refused.

Yeah because if Indira got them, it's available to law enforcement agencies.

So how did Roy suppress any domestic violence investigation and prosecution?  In fact who in that county would have taken them?  Doctors and nurses and they gave them to some law enforcement agency somewhere and now it's available to all agencies?

Roy may be the law in that county but those pictures are in some law enforcement database accessible by police in another jurisdiction, in another state?

Why wouldn't the FBI use them to go after Roy?  They suspect that he caused his first two wives to disappear.

 

[rur]

II's still an assumption, although a logical one, that Roy is the one who beat her. It could be that she left whoever was beating her and was taken in (in a couple senses) by Roy. 

Also, I thought Indira got the files from the FBI agents when they were trying to convince her to help them. I've watched enough Law and Order to know that frequently those guys only share information when it suits them and put a lid on things they don't want people to know.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, LadyintheLoop said:

Interesting that he recognized Dot at the hospital and didn't betray her. Maybe, back in the day, he had a crush on his cute teenaged stepmother.

I think he didn't do anything because she was standing with the two FBI agents.

[possibilities]

ANYONE could have beaten up "Nadine". ANY cover story could have been given to whoever treated her and whoever gave the interview. Let's say she was unconscious, someone brought her to the hospital. They say "she was assaulted by a stranger, probably because they are trying to hurt Roy". Roy gets sympathy, Dot realizes she can't count on being believed once she gets to speak.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Yeah because if Indira got them, it's available to law enforcement agencies.

So how did Roy suppress any domestic violence investigation and prosecution?  In fact who in that county would have taken them?  Doctors and nurses and they gave them to some law enforcement agency somewhere and now it's available to all agencies?

Roy may be the law in that county but those pictures are in some law enforcement database accessible by police in another jurisdiction, in another state?

Why wouldn't the FBI use them to go after Roy?  They suspect that he caused his first two wives to disappear.

 

In an opposite of the famous getting Al Capone for tax evasion instead of murder example when Officer Olmstead suggested why not get the Sheriff  for kidnapping and felony murder of a State Trooper  the FBI Agents  remained focused on only their corruption case.

I thought that in the real post OJ Simpson world it didn't matter if Dot refused to cooperate. Any sign, like all of that physical evidence would mean  the case would go forward as the people of the state, not Dot, is who the crime is against.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Raja

[possibilities]

Domestic violence cases are notoriously under-prosecuted. And Dot is not dead,  like Nicole Brown Simpson. You obviously can't get testimony from a dead person, so that is different than thee case  of Nadine/Dot. Also, if there are no witnesses to the assault, or none willing testify, it's her word against the sheriff, who has an entire militia behind him. I think Nadine deciding to flee rather than sue is totally rational. What kind of protection would she get during the trial?

My step-mother was beaten by my father to the point that she was hospitalized multiple times. Nobody prosecuted anybody. Eventually she managed to leave him, after many years, but it's known that the most dangerous time for someone fleeing domestic violence is when she's leaving.

Statistics on DV are depressing.

I can't remember if the show confirmed that the photos were due to Roy's behavior, or not. But whoever did it, I get why she thought it would be safer to go underground than to try seeking help from the aboveground system. After a certain point, many people lose faith in the wisdom of trusting anyone.

 

[LadyintheLoop]

Quote

I wondered who took those photos of Dot. 

I'm still wondering how her prints got into the system.

[possibilities]

I'm cooking up theories about the fingerprints.

Maybe when she disappeared, Roy got some prints off something in the house and submitted them to a database for missing persons? Is that a thing?

If she was given to him at 15, it seems like she would not have much of a criminal record before their marriage. I don't see him marrying anyone he didn't see as innocent.

But there's always the chance that she did have some kind of criminal record, and he married her because he thought she would be a good accomplice, and have a hard time leaving if he had that to hold over her in some way?

Also, the FBI didn't seem to want her because she herself is wanted. They wanted her to act as an informant in their case against Roy... though maybe they lied to Indira, to get her to help them rather than see them as a problem if they suspected she might be loyal to Dot.

Edited December 25, 2023 by possibilities

[DMK]

I just assumed Roy fingerprinted Dot himself and put them in the system. He’s the sheriff, he can do that. 

[endure]

On 12/19/2023 at 8:30 PM, DMK said:

I'm going to love if it turns out to be Lorraine and Dot vs the world.

Throw in Indira too and I'm in too!

[endure]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:45 AM, Spartan Girl said:

So we’re all going to ignore the fact that Dot basically got Jordan killed?

He was another redneck misogynist and he had cancer, so be it on Fargo 💀

[steph369]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:33 AM, Spartan Girl said:

It wasn’t funny and he didn’t deserve that. Neither did his poor wife and family who are hysterical over his disappearance.

That’s exactly what black comedy is. It’s not to be taken seriously. If he’s as much of an ass at home as we’ve seen, the wife is probably playing it up and is cheering inside. 😉

[steph369]

On 12/23/2023 at 7:28 PM, aghst said:

I get that they want to show the extent of Roy's villainy but those injuries that Nadine sustained look like acts committed by someone out of control, fueled by pure rage.

If he hit Karen when she only clipped his ear a bit, I can see him losing it over Dot who was constantly “disobeying” him. As he himself said, he couldn’t tame her like he did his other women. Dot would have frustrated him to no end and he was probably flying off the handle all the time with her.

[iMonrey]

18 hours ago, possibilities said:

I can't remember if the show confirmed that the photos were due to Roy's behavior, or not.

I think it's fairly obvious we are meant to assume she was beaten by Roy. The FBI agents are after Roy, they are hoping to find Dot and hoping Indira will help them find Dot, hence the photos. If the photos had nothing to do with Roy I don't see why they would even have them. Also this is the same episode where Roy slaps his current wife around. It's already been established he's a wife beater and approves of "disciplining" wives if they don't behave.

[endure]

20 hours ago, endure said:

oops

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by endure

[possibilities]

I assume Roy is the one who beat her up, but I'm used to TV misdirects, which is why I had a moment of doubt.

But I still think that it's plausible that someone told a cover story to the hospital, or if she told them the truth that she would still want to flee.

She's not a child, so they aren't likely to be mandatory reporters. So nobody prosecutes. And if she disappeared, they wouldn't have her as a witness even if they did want to prosecute.

The FBI isn't trying to help her. They are trying to find a way to get help with their corruption case-- they totally dismissed Indira's interest in helping Dot.

[jenn31]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:22 PM, iMonrey said:

What is up with Jon Hamm showing off his dick? Pictures of him walking down the street freeballing and the opening shot of him here leaning up against the car, a visible outline of his dick in his tight jeans. WTF

Old news. Over the decades, there have been tons of pictures, it’s been commented on in loads of articles, he’s been asked umpteenth times in interviews…. The man is well-endowed. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by jenn31

[Broderbits]

On 12/25/2023 at 9:07 AM, steph369 said:

As he himself said, he couldn’t tame her like he did his other women.

Not "tame", he said "break". And I have no doubt he meant that in every sense of the word.

[steph369]

On 1/16/2024 at 11:39 AM, Broderbits said:

Not "tame", he said "break". And I have no doubt he meant that in every sense of the word.

Semantics. He meant tame. He “broke” her well enough. Her jaw, ribs…

[Raja]

1 minute ago, steph369 said:

Semantics. He meant tame. He “broke” her well enough. Her jaw, ribs…

Perhaps we tame wild animals and break the horses we own in American western usage.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:45 AM, Spartan Girl said:

So we’re all going to ignore the fact that Dot basically got Jordan killed?

Well Roy killed him and Gator and the other guys kidnapped and tortured him. Blaming Dot for their crimes seems a little close to victim blaming for me. Also Roy shooting that guy and him staying alive for a few seconds with a hole in his forehead was one of the more disturbing things I've seen on tv in awhile.

On 12/19/2023 at 11:22 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm willing to bet she turns down Lorraine's offer too.

It seems like it would be kind of unethical if she did. I mean Lorraine isn't the target of any investigation, but she is involved. So taking a fancy new job (pay off) from her during it would seem kind of questionable.

On 12/19/2023 at 11:30 PM, DMK said:

After that ridiculous speech of his, I’d have told him good luck finding the kind of wife he wants somewhere else. And leave behind all the equipment that I’m paying for. 

That speech was crazy. I can't believe she held it together long enough to point out that if she is expecting to be a traditional wife that cooks and cleans and takes care of him then that requires him to be the traditional husband who gets shit done and brings home the money to support them.

As for why she doesn't leave I wonder if she thinks she is in too deep. I have never been divorced but my understanding is it is expensive. And with how much debt she currently has perhaps she is afraid that a divorce would just add to that. Especially if she had to pay any kind of spousal support since she was the one who made money.

Also just a small thing but the young actress playing Scotty is doing a really good job. She really seems like a real kid not a middle aged writer's version of a kid.

Edited January 22 by Kel Varnsen

[possibilities]

I still don't think she expected them to kidnap the guy in the hospital. I thought her plan was merely to slow things down. She switched the names on the doors so that she could hide Wayne, and create a moment of confusion/distraction/delay. I don't think she realized Roy would send people who had no idea what their target looked like, and who would just kidnap a random person. Honestly, the incompetence of the kidnappers was rather stunning. 

Edited January 22 by possibilities

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Well Roy killed him and Gator and the other guys kidnapped and tortured him. Blaming Dot for their crimes seems a little close to victim blaming for me.

 

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I still don't think she expected them to kidnap the guy in the hospital. I thought her plan was merely to slow things down. She switched the names on the doors so that she could hide Wayne, and create a moment of confusion/distraction/delay. I don't think she realized Roy would send people who had no idea what their target looked like, and who would just kidnap a random person. Honestly, the incompetence of the kidnappers was rather stunning. 

It’s not victim blaming to point out that the guy wouldn’t have been taken and later killed if Dot hadn’t switched the names. Even if she hadn’t intended to for anyone to get hurt, that’s exactly what happened. But I guess I were all supposed to overlook it just because the guy was a jerk to the nurses, just like it was okay for Lester to kill his wife and frame his brother just because they were jerks to him. Because apparently only victims that are nice as pie are entitled to sympathy in this show.