S03.E02: The Beat Goes On

[Yeah No]

Here's a theory about Ben's hour long "death":

He was briefly clinically dead, was pronounced dead, but came back to life shortly thereafter only no one noticed for a while hence him thinking he was dead for an hour.  But yeah, we can't trust a word out of his mouth, so who knows?  I hope we find out more about this as our trio checks into that.

If he really was clinically dead at all I'm wondering what could cause that.  I'm reading online that cardiac arrest, plus certain drugs and toxins could be the cause of temporarily being dead and coming back.  If no drug or poison was found it could have happened naturally as in food poisoning or a reaction to his own medication and not been a murder at that point or it was caused by a substance not easy to trace in the body. 

Or maybe he was deliberately given food poisoning with some off food which would not make the doctors suspicious of foul play.  Since he claimed the doctors suggested that he may have eaten something "off" perhaps that's it.  But there's something even "off" about Ben saying that.  Wouldn't the doctors have determined that he had e coli or something like that for sure and not just said "maybe" he ate something off?  Even his story about that doesn't sound too believable. And him showing up again like he did in such an over-confident way makes me ask myself if he didn't think anyone was trying to murder him, which may be significant somehow.  If he knew someone might be likely to kill him he may have shown more evidence of that.

~Or~ The way he was acting at the party was his way of showing evidence of that.  The way he approached a few people seemed to show some hidden suspicion, like the way he approached Meryl Streep's character and a man.  Him "poking" these people at that moment made me wonder about that.

If he briefly died naturally, I'm wondering if the killer was so happy to hear that  that they were compelled to actually murder him when he suddenly showed up again alive.  Or if they were the one that tried to poison him with bad food (or something else) they were upset when it didn't work and went back to finish the job.

Talk about suspension of disbelief, it's not only necessary with Oliver's mild heart attack (I have a friend who's had 3 of them and I know you don't just get let out of the hospital so fast after that), but also with Ben's first brief death.  Who gets let out of the hospital so soon after something like that?  They'd have you in for so many tests you definitely wouldn't get out for at least another day.  Could he have walked out without their consent?  Like I said above, he got out a little too fast.  Maybe he didn't want them to find out what was in his system and he booked before they got around to testing him more thoroughly, or else his narcissism (or suspicion) made him want to be at the party.

The scenes showing Ben falling into the elevator shaft seem to show a man's hands holding the handkerchief.  Or maybe that's just in someone's mind's eye?  I admit I wasn't clear on that.  I'll have to go back and look at that again more closely.  If it was just someone's mind's eye then we still don't know if this is in fact a murder.  Also, when he walked out of the party he had just gotten a phone call that he said he had to take.  Our crew will need to find out who that person was from his cell phone.  I'm also anticipating our trio being very interested in any post-mortem toxicology reports.

1st wild stab at who the killer is:

Could it be Charles' new love interest?  What better way to throw the audience off than making it Charles' new love interest yet AGAIN?  I thought she sounded pretty happy that she would have Charles all to herself again.  It would be just like this show to attempt to throw us off and engage in that kind of irony!

Edited August 11, 2023 by Yeah No

[Haleth]

I was a little sad the detective from the first two seasons wasn't back.

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I was a little sad the detective from the first two seasons wasn't back.

 

Spoiler

She's shown in the trailer, so I think she'll be in sometime this season. 

 

[kay1864]

10 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And well done to whoever decided Paul Rudd needed frosted tips in Girl Cop.

Has anyone sussed out the premise? He’s a cop, working with a girl?

 

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, kay1864 said:

11 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And well done to whoever decided Paul Rudd needed frosted tips in Girl Cop.

Has anyone sussed out the premise? He’s a cop, working with a girl?

I was thinking that it girl and guy who were cops, both pretending to be in high school (21 Jump Street) and the girl was the star of the show.

[Frost]

Was there any resolution to the building manager from last year?  She was all excited about the Arconia being bought out and then razed.  She was a red herring, but did her character just fade away?

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

And well done to whoever decided Paul Rudd needed frosted tips in Girl Cop.

I was thinking maybe like Mario Lopez, but it turned out it was Mark-Paul Gosselaar (Saved By The Bell): pinterest.com/pin/500673683547742570/

Ben told Mabel he had been a 31-year-old actor playing a high school student.
Both Mark-Paul Gosselaar and Mario Lopez were only 15 when the show started.

But often teen shows then and now do have 18+ year olds to start because of labor laws.

Recently on Never Have I Ever, the main high school hot guy was played by a 31-year-old.

[paigow]

16 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Here's a theory about Ben's hour long "death":

He was briefly clinically dead, was pronounced dead, but came back to life shortly thereafter only no one noticed for a while hence him thinking he was dead for an hour.  But yeah, we can't trust a word out of his mouth, so who knows?  I hope we find out more about this as our trio checks into that.

If he really was clinically dead at all I'm wondering what could cause that.  I'm reading online that cardiac arrest, plus certain drugs and toxins could be the cause of temporarily being dead and coming back.  If no drug or poison was found it could have happened naturally as in food poisoning or a reaction to his own medication and not been a murder at that point or it was caused by a substance not easy to trace in the body. 

Or maybe he was deliberately given food poisoning with some off food which would not make the doctors suspicious of foul play.  Since he claimed the doctors suggested that he may have eaten something "off" perhaps that's it.  But there's something even "off" about Ben saying that.  Wouldn't the doctors have determined that he had e coli or something like that for sure and not just said "maybe" he ate something off?  Even his story about that doesn't sound too believable. And him showing up again like he did in such an over-confident way makes me ask myself if he didn't think anyone was trying to murder him, which may be significant somehow.  If he knew someone might be likely to kill him he may have shown more evidence of that.

~Or~ The way he was acting at the party was his way of showing evidence of that.  The way he approached a few people seemed to show some hidden suspicion, like the way he approached Meryl Streep's character and a man.  Him "poking" these people at that moment made me wonder about that.

If he briefly died naturally, I'm wondering if the killer was so happy to hear that  that they were compelled to actually murder him when he suddenly showed up again alive.  Or if they were the one that tried to poison him with bad food (or something else) they were upset when it didn't work and went back to finish the job.

Talk about suspension of disbelief, it's not only necessary with Oliver's mild heart attack (I have a friend who's had 3 of them and I know you don't just get let out of the hospital so fast after that), but also with Ben's first brief death.  Who gets let out of the hospital so soon after something like that?  They'd have you in for so many tests you definitely wouldn't get out for at least another day.  Could he have walked out without their consent?  Like I said above, he got out a little too fast.  Maybe he didn't want them to find out what was in his system and he booked before they got around to testing him more thoroughly, or else his narcissism (or suspicion) made him want to be at the party.

The scenes showing Ben falling into the elevator shaft seem to show a man's hands holding the handkerchief.  Or maybe that's just in someone's mind's eye?  I admit I wasn't clear on that.  I'll have to go back and look at that again more closely.  If it was just someone's mind's eye then we still don't know if this is in fact a murder.  Also, when he walked out

No genders were excluded by handkerchief. A woman could have worn it as a scarf that Ben grabbed.

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, paigow said:

No genders were excluded by handkerchief. A woman could have worn it as a scarf that Ben grabbed.

Of course it could have been a woman, we don't know and I don't make any assumption about the killer's gender but perhaps Mabel did because when she was "what-iffing" about how Ben got ahold of the handkerchief the scene depicted a person wearing a man's style of suit and tie with what looked to me like a man's hands.  I went back to look at it again to be sure.  I figured that was in Mabel's mind's eye, so perhaps she is assuming that the killer is a man.  I'm also figuring that scene wasn't necessarily showing us what really happened either, just what Mabel was conjecturing in her own mind.  That's how I'm interpreting it, anyway.

[cardigirl]

I re-watched this episode again last night, and was struck by the beautiful scene of Oliver's heart attack interspersed with the flashback scenes of him coaching Ben through the heartbeat speech. Chills. Martin Short was brilliant. 

The best part of this series is that every time I watch an episode, I see more things that I'm in awe of. 

I love trying to figure out who the murderer is, but it's secondary to watching the story being told. It's lovely and to be savored. Every minute of it. 

💖

 

[Yeah No]

I just wanted to say that so far we still have not seen any real evidence that this was a murder.  Ben could have gotten the handkerchief some other way and his falling into the elevator shaft could have been an unfortunate accident while otherwise distracted during an argument or fight with someone.  As crazy as it sounds, based on what we know right now we don't know that either incident was an attempt at murder or an actual one.

On 8/8/2023 at 9:02 AM, cardigirl said:

The only thing I didn't care for was the filming seemed sped up or something. Or the lighting was off, or they are using a single camera rather than three or four. Just felt a bit off to me. I'll rewatch before next week, and maybe I won't notice anything. 

I thought something felt off with the filming and lighting too.  Like maybe the lighting wasn't as bright and it made the picture a little muddy and less sharp.  I felt like something about the pacing was different too, only I felt like the show had a slower pace than in past seasons so far.

Also, I hope Mabel finds her way back into living in the building.  Maybe she could be convinced to move in with Oliver at least temporarily to look after his well being after his heart attack.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I just wanted to say that so far we still have not seen any real evidence that this was a murder.  Ben could have gotten the handkerchief some other way and his falling into the elevator shaft could have been an unfortunate accident while otherwise distracted during an argument or fight with someone.  As crazy as it sounds, based on what we know right now we don't know that either incident was an attempt at murder or an actual one.

But the show is Only MURDERS in the Building, not ... But Sometimes Accidents. 😉

Edited August 12, 2023 by peeayebee

[chitowngirl]

Minor nitpick to me, and I could be wrong-when we see Ben falling down the elevator shaft, we know he lands to TOP of the elevator. Where are the cables? The building is old enough that it wouldn’t have a hydraulic lift under the car, would it?

[Ceindreadh]

On 8/10/2023 at 2:14 PM, MrsCastle said:

And for that matter you don't stay at home after a "mild heart attack"  There is no medical consultant on this show for sure, but I still like it.  

Disbelief suspended.

And whatever about staying at home, the whole point of a holter monitor is that it's a passive device that records heart rhythm.  It's not something that the wearer has to activate when they think their heart is acting up. 

[AnimeMania]

8 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

And whatever about staying at home, the whole point of a holter monitor is that it's a passive device that records heart rhythm.  It's not something that the wearer has to activate when they think their heart is acting up. 

This is an Event monitor.

What’s the Difference Between a Holter Monitor and an Event Monitor?

One of the most fundamental differences between the two distinct kinds of monitors is how they record your heart’s electrical activity. Event monitors do not perpetually monitor your heart rhythm like Holter monitors do. Instead, they only record your heart’s electrical activity when you are experiencing symptoms. Some event monitors will automatically begin recording if they detect abnormal heart rhythms, while others rely on the user to manually activate the device when they feel symptoms. The major downfall to using an event monitor is that it does not capture events that occur without physical symptoms and has the potential to lead to a missed diagnosis.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

The building is old enough that it wouldn’t have a hydraulic lift under the car, would it?

No. The real-life building the Arconia is based on was built with hydraulic lift elevators. I’m guessing the scene where the body fell through the top was filmed on a set but, originally, the elevator scenes were filmed in the real building. 

[Yeah No]

13 hours ago, peeayebee said:

But the show is Only MURDERS in the Building, not ... But Sometimes Accidents. 😉

Hah, true, but it is sometimes accidents.  Don't forget what happened with Theo Dimas and that woman Zoe.  He accidentally pushed her to her death during an altercation over her ring, so it was technically not a murder, at least not an intentional one.  If this show could do that once it could do something similar again.

[Affogato]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:00 PM, peeayebee said:

Yes, that's all we've been shown so far. But we always get flashbacks, so I'm guessing in a future ep we'll see him chowing down on cookies.

Anyone at the table read would have known, if they wanted to poison him, all they had to do was put out a plate of poisoned cookies!

23 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

This is an Event monitor.

What’s the Difference Between a Holter Monitor and an Event Monitor?

One of the most fundamental differences between the two distinct kinds of monitors is how they record your heart’s electrical activity. Event monitors do not perpetually monitor your heart rhythm like Holter monitors do. Instead, they only record your heart’s electrical activity when you are experiencing symptoms. Some event monitors will automatically begin recording if they detect abnormal heart rhythms, while others rely on the user to manually activate the device when they feel symptoms. The major downfall to using an event monitor is that it does not capture events that occur without physical symptoms and has the potential to lead to a missed diagnosis.

the Holter monitor records consistently but you can also record events by clicking the button area. It is a good physical gesture for him to make, especially as he is such a nervous gerbil of a person.

[Snazzy Daisy]

A compilation of Paul Rudd's Easter eggs in this episode!

ARTICLE LINK

 

[Snapdragon]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:55 AM, kay1864 said:

Has anyone sussed out the premise? He’s a cop, working with a girl?

 

I believe it's that she's a high schooler who's also a cop (hence, Girl Cop) and he's her fellow high schooler who's also her friend (or brother? boyfriend? less clear on that part).  So, same premise as Doogie Howser, MD, just with cops.

[Snapdragon]

On 8/11/2023 at 6:30 AM, Haleth said:

I was a little sad the detective from the first two seasons wasn't back.

I liked the original detective as well, but goodness me is the new detective good looking!  

[shapeshifter]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:30 AM, Haleth said:

I was a little sad the detective from the first two seasons wasn't back.

19 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

I liked the original detective as well, but goodness me is the new detective good looking!  

Hee! Can we get a spin-off with both cops as partners in solving crime?

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:20 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Looks like the suspect pool has been narrowed down to whoever was given a handkerchief by Ben as a gift for opening day.  I know they said it was given to the crew and cast, but I wonder if others received them, which would still allow for the likes of his brother or the documentary guy to be in the game still.  

On 8/8/2023 at 8:12 AM, shapeshifter said:

Also:

• the killer may have taken the handkerchief from someone,
  including Ben,
• or the killer just found the handkerchief laying around?
• or the handkerchief was dropped…
  • by a witness who is reluctant to come forward?
  • and/or the handkerchief was dropped at the scene before Ben’s fall,
    • by someone who may or may not realize they dropped it, 
    • and which might cause either the intrepid podcasters or the police (or both) to suspect someone of pushing Ben down the elevator shaft who’s only guilty of dropping a handkerchief. 
• Does there have to be a killer?
  • Ben could have been assaulting someone who pushed him away,
  • or Ben could have just lost his footing?
    • have they done an autopsy yet, to see if Ben was taking drugs or medicine that could have caused him to stumble down an elevator shaft?

Any recipient could have given it to someone else.  I doubt most of them were particularly impressed by the gift. Now why that someone else would want to kill Ben is another issue....

On 8/8/2023 at 9:02 AM, cardigirl said:

I was very worried for Oliver when he was having his heart attack. Glad it wasn't a BIG one. 

On 8/10/2023 at 7:32 AM, Haleth said:

If a doc on a house call can diagnose a heart attack and provide a monitoring device without Oliver having to go to the hospital, then I can believe Ben's recovery from death.  (He must be related to Jack Bauer.)

On 8/10/2023 at 10:07 PM, secnarf said:

He had the heart attack at the theatre and then the scene with the doctor was at the Arconia...I can pretend in the elapsed period of time, Oliver was at the hospital. This is much easier for me to suspend disbelief about than Ben coming back to life after an hour, as if nothing happened.

Exactly.  He was examined and diagnosed at home?  No hospital tests?  Or we missed the hospital visit, and now he has a doctor who pays house calls and provides a heart monitor (at the behest of his son, the veterinarian)? This seems very unlikely, even in Manhattan.  Concierge doctors replace office visits, not hospital visits.

On 8/8/2023 at 7:26 PM, shapeshifter said:

When Ben came back from being dead the first time, he said the doctors thought it was something he ate. 
The bit of cookie? Perhaps not enough to kill him with immediate medical attention? Maybe a known allergy? 
Do we know who provided the cookies? 

The cookies were at the read-through, 4 months before opening night.

On 8/8/2023 at 9:42 PM, secnarf said:

Re: the photoshopping - I thought that was meant to show that the crazy not-security guard guy did it himself, and it had to be obvious enough for Mabel to notice. I don't think they were going for anything meta, there

Agreed.

On 8/12/2023 at 9:31 AM, Yeah No said:

I just wanted to say that so far we still have not seen any real evidence that this was a murder.  Ben could have gotten the handkerchief some other way and his falling into the elevator shaft could have been an unfortunate accident while otherwise distracted during an argument or fight with someone.  As crazy as it sounds, based on what we know right now we don't know that either incident was an attempt at murder or an actual one.

We also don't know that it was actually blood coming out of his mouth during his "first death".  I assume it was theater blood.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by ItCouldBeWorse

[EtheltoTillie]

On 8/8/2023 at 7:26 PM, shapeshifter said:

Watching during the strike:
This season seems like the best so far.
It's an excellent exaI'm mple of what real writers can do.
And the extras add a lot too. 
If they'd used an AI singer for the scene that inspired young Loretta in 1962, it just wouldn't have been, you know, inspiring. 
I wondered if Mabel noticing that the photos of Ben and Gregg were PhotoShopped was an oblique reference to AI?

 

Solving the case:
When Ben came back from being dead the first time, he said the doctors thought it was something he ate. 
The bit of cookie? Perhaps not enough to kill him with immediate medical attention? Maybe a known allergy? 
Do we know who provided the cookies? 

Of course, the person who may have tried to kill him the first time may not be the person who killed him the second time. 

Maybe Ben went back to the cookies and binge-ate them all? 

What was the time frame between Ben's two deaths? 

Ben was consistently dismissive of Cliff. History?

I agree.  I didn't like the first season and skipped the second after trying the first episode.  I'm liking this one much more. 

[LuvMyShows]

On 8/12/2023 at 1:35 AM, Yeah No said:

Of course it could have been a woman, we don't know and I don't make any assumption about the killer's gender but perhaps Mabel did because when she was "what-iffing" about how Ben got ahold of the handkerchief the scene depicted a person wearing a man's style of suit and tie with what looked to me like a man's hands.  I went back to look at it again to be sure.  I figured that was in Mabel's mind's eye, so perhaps she is assuming that the killer is a man.  I'm also figuring that scene wasn't necessarily showing us what really happened either, just what Mabel was conjecturing in her own mind.  That's how I'm interpreting it, anyway.

But that was just the first imagined scenario.  In the second, she surmised that the scarf could have been in someone's hair or around their neck, and I believe that the depiction of that scenario showed a female.

[margol29]

sorry this was already brought up.

Edited September 7, 2023 by margol29
double post

[aradia22]

This is the episode that made me much more enthusiastic about the season. I actually laughed in this one. Paul Rudd felt more natural getting to have more of a range of emotion (e.g. ghost Ben talking to Mabel, struggling over line delivery with Oliver, Ben confronting Charles about having him fired as a child). 

They haven't been shy about casting Broadway talent but it's a little extra special this season given the focus on Death Rattle. Linda Emond, Wesley Taylor, Noma Dumezweni... And of course the brilliant performances they're getting with this caliber of acting talent. And the theater and the church were gorgeous settings. I'm so happy to be watching this show again.

I'm not super invested in the mystery at this point though they did try to create some danger for our sleuths with the kidnapping. But I like that they're not motivated by peril or the cops having them under suspicion. Oliver's desire for redemption and his precarious health provides enough stakes for me. 

[aradia22]

Oliver's crazy antics were fun throwaway jokes in the first two seasons but it's been nice seeing that he actually had some skill as a director and is good at working with actors.

Quote

Paul Rudd and the show were definitely having fun with all of the callbacks to Ben's past work like "CoBro" and "Girl Cop."  Amusing, but I do like how Girl Cop was apparently a big part of Mabel's life and that's why she is invested (crushing maybe?) on Ben despite his clearly odious behavior elsewhere. 

When Paul Rudd was talking about being too old to play a high school senior in Girl Cop, it made me think of Clueless. (He was 26 playing a college student.) Also, I couldn't help but think of Selena's own experience in Disney channel shows. I'm sure she's heard a lot of those stories from fans who are strangers to her telling her how much her performance on a silly show meant to them.

Quote

Frankly, it's probably a little surprising that it has taken this long for Oliver to have his first heart attack.  Dude is constantly wired and lives, sleeps, and eats stress every hour of the day.  You just know he won't back off either.  Hope he doesn't go too overboard with hit.

I bet the real problem is the dips

Quote

Loved the A Chorus Line-like dream of Oliver's with Charles, Mabel, and Will, and thought it was performed brilliantly.

Fosse. A Chorus Line is Michael Bennett. I thought they obviously couldn't nail the choreography but it was simplified enough that with the close ups and cuts, you got the right impression. I'm excited for how full out they might go now that Oliver is choosing to do a musical murder mystery.

Quote

They thought a big name Star making his debut would bring in big money. But he was bad. So bad. Bad enough to not sell out but not so bad as to completely tank the show. People would still come to see him, fans anyway, but all the “true” theater people will skip it. 
so they needed to end the show in order to recoup their money. 

This doesn't make sense without a Lea Michele waiting in the wings and murder seems rather extreme. My only guess for the producers right now is that it might have something to do with the reopening of the theater. I don't know how yet, but it feels like a clue that's been floating around without being remarked upon.

Quote

I thought the only time they actually showed cookies, and we saw Ben take a bite, was the table read scene, which was months prior to his collapse on stage.  And in that scene, when it was asked where the cookies were from, it was Howard who answered. Of course I may have missed seeing cookies another time, but that is the only time I remember seeing cookies.

The cookies were from Schmackary's. A Broadway in-joke.

Quote

I thought something felt off with the filming and lighting too.  Like maybe the lighting wasn't as bright and it made the picture a little muddy and less sharp. 

It felt especially dim in the church but that suited the funeral and then Oliver's minor heart attack scare. I'll have to see if the show continues to feel darkly lit this season. Mabel usually wears a striking bold color and that's been absent. It might be an intentional choice to go more serious and then splash out when we get to the musical parts for contrast. 

[Black Knight]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:14 PM, secnarf said:

Also - someone traumatized over being fired after their first table read (Ben) tries to get somebody else fired after their first table read (Meryl Streep’s character)?

On 8/9/2023 at 1:08 AM, phalange said:

If Ben was telling the truth about Charles getting him fired from Brazzos as a kid, he sure didn't learn any lesson from it since he immediately tried to get Loretta fired.

A couple of things come to my mind here.

The first is that it taught Ben something about the power an established star can wield. From that point on, he struggled with insecurity, feeling he didn't belong in the room, so it's not surprising that he would do the same thing that Charles did as a way of reassuring himself. Getting someone fired is what an established star does. If Ben can have someone fired, then he's an established star. It's not nice, but...that leads me to my second thought, which is that Loretta is an adult, not an 8-year-old child. Ben even emphasized to Charles that he was 8 at the time. So I can believe he felt it was okay enough to be a jackass to an adult, but would have drawn the line at a child.