S02.E03: Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

It's all very well giving a character their episode in the spotlight (and I wouldn't be complaining if it was a character that I preferred), but there's only 10 episodes this season and this one feels like a waste of my time. 

exactly. And it's not the actress it's the writing, She is nothing but pain and supposed bad ass-ness, it gets so boring and honestly feels like overcompensation where every female character has to be some élite warrior blah blah blah. If you want to focus on La'an, then fill out her character with more than just anger and grief. 

[marinw]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

Her and me both!!  I just try to roll with it and try not to understand it.  I was still bored throughout most of the show though. 

Temporal Investigation Lady handwaved something about the Devise that would "Protect" La'an from changes to the timeline, so even when La'an timeline vanished, she didn't. Or something like that. 

[Prevailing Wind]

5 minutes ago, marinw said:

Temporal Investigation Lady handwaved something about the Devise that would "Protect" La'an from changes to the timeline, so even when La'an timeline vanished, she didn't. Or something like that. 

I thought it was Romulan Woman/Terrorist that told her that so she'd feel OK about killing Khan - her life will go on.

[marinw]

1 minute ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I thought it was Romulan Woman/Terrorist that told her that so she'd feel OK about killing Khan - her life will go on.

I stand coreected

[Cthulhudrew]

I did not like this episode. It felt like half-a-dozen semi-interesting plot ideas and one good performance in search of a story. It was trying to do way too much (La'an's sense of isolation, guilt over her heritage, a romance, a historic journey into Federation history, a mild retcon, action) and ended up not doing anything at all.

La'an and Kirk's "romance" came from out of nowhere and went nowhere, which meant that the viewer wasn't really brought along on the journey with them and couldn't share in the apparent loss that the writers wanted you to have with La'an at the end. Not to mention that "Kirk" didn't feel like any version of Kirk that this viewer is familiar with (even an alternate timeline version). 

"Kirk's" struggle whether to condemn himself to oblivion or save the future with his brother in it was such a "blink and you'll miss it" moment that his sacrifice didn't mean anything- and he didn't end up living long enough to actually make a meaningful sacrifice on that end anyway, having his life taken randomly by the out of nowhere Romulan villain.

La'an's confrontation with her past in the form of young Khan was pretty empty, as it came out of the blue in a last minute reveal and all she does is remark on how young he is. There wasn't any real sense of a morality play of "do I kill baby Hitler in his crib or not?" because it was buried under the rest of the plot mess.

Romulan spy girl was a pretty two-dimensional character, and the plot device of having the Lanthanite character who is so ageless that she forms a fortunate link to the past that La'an is able to exploit echoes the use of Guinan in TNG and Picard so much that it comes across as lazy writing.

I thought Christina Chong did a good job with the character, as usual, and I continue to like La'an, but I just don't think the writers gave us a thoughtful, well-crafted journey for her in this episode at all.

Lastly, can Trek writers stop with all the time travel stories already? You've got the boundless reaches of space and the future to explore. Stop pulling us into the past with tales like this. We have plenty of modern shows we can watch instead.

On 6/29/2023 at 3:57 AM, tv-talk said:

Quite possibly the single worst episode of any Trek I've ever seen.  Not only was it riddled with absurdities (Kirk made $10k playing chess in the park?),

Thank you. Not to mention - wouldn't they have needed some kind of $$ stake to start the gambling with in the first place?

[Cthulhudrew]

9 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

And another thing, why were their uniforms so similar, if they were from completely different organizations?

Just wait for the time travel episode where La'an has to ensure the official Starfleet fashion designer survives a Ferengi plot to hijack their brand.

[Arynm]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:49 PM, jcbrown said:

Table for one, I guess. I actually really enjoyed this episode.

I loved it. I am into time travel, mirror universe, alternate universe stories all day long. I love when the characters I know act contrary to the way I am used to.

I also really like Pelia and enjoy her lawlessness that tries to fit in the rules of Starfleet.

[QuantumMechanic]

Pretty lousy episode.  Very painful that 10% of the season was burned on that.  And now 30% of the season is gone and we've still not had even a single all-the-crew-together episode.  Very disappointing.  I don't like Capt Jim T. Carrey either.

The sole highlight of the show was Carol Kane.

 

[OLynn33]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:38 PM, cdnalor said:

I still think the actor playing Kirk reminds me too much of Jim Carrey to accept him in the role, especially in his reactions at the beginning of this episode.  Any moment I expect an "All righty, then!" to come out of his mouth.

Ya I can't. And when "Kirk" called himself Jim I'm like ya no shit. 

I didn't finish this episode. Bailed shortly after the car chase and encounter with alien conspiracy girl. Liked last week's episode. Will give the show one more episode, but man I'm close to pulling the chute.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Thank you. Not to mention - wouldn't they have needed some kind of $$ stake to start the gambling with in the first place?

TNG!Data used the gold in his communicator as collateral for buying in to a 19th century poker game... Maybe Kirk convinced everyone that his shirt was decorated with real gold... 

[Prevailing Wind]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Maybe Kirk convinced everyone that his shirt was decorated with real gold... 

Did someone rip it partially off him to prove it? I must have missed that part, but I'm sure it was there.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

TNG!Data used the gold in his communicator as collateral for buying in to a 19th century poker game... Maybe Kirk convinced everyone that his shirt was decorated with real gold... 

Starfleet officers always need to be prepared: so, there's a chance you'll be stuck in the past and need something valuable to trade for cash and other goods.  Therefore, your rank pips, communicator, badge, belt buckle, etc. have been constructed with valuable metals. 

[wanderingstar]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:51 AM, Sandman said:

May I join you? I brought three hotdogs.

I know the table's getting crowded, but can I join if I bring more hotdogs 😄

I loved this episode. I've liked La'an and Christina Chong's performance since the first episode, so I was always going to enjoy an episode that focused on her. Add in time travel, and this episode was practically tailor made for me. La'an and Kirk's connection was charming and unexpected. I liked them as a team, even though I knew their pairing was ultimately doomed. At the end, I wanted to give poor La'an a hug. 

Paul Wesley as Kirk is working for me. I loved how he portrayed this alternate version of Kirk, but still brought the charm and honorable nature of the Kirk we all know and love.

I find Pelia so delightful. Kudos to Carol Kane. This character is very different from Hemmer (who I also liked a lot), but a solid successor.

[tkc]

Firstly, let me say I am in the ranks of those who really enjoyed this show.

However, with the minimal CGI, the large number of outside shots in the city, the references to iconic Trek characters and plot points, a "classic" time travel dilemma, and also an actor who looks little like William Shatner playing James T. Kirk, I thought it could just as well have been a fan film!  😁

Edited July 1, 2023 by tkc

[CarpeFelis]

On 6/29/2023 at 7:38 PM, cdnalor said:

I still think the actor playing Kirk reminds me too much of Jim Carrey to accept him in the role, especially in his reactions at the beginning of this episode.  Any moment I expect an "All righty, then!" to come out of his mouth.

Having watched The Vampire Diaries I just see him as Stephan Salvatore in a Starfleet uniform. Likewise our Romulan agent as Mary, Queen of Anachronistic Prom Dresses.

[paigow]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:14 PM, Ceindreadh said:

They were supposed to happen in 1992, but something screwed up the timeline and the Romulan was stuck there another 30 years.  It's not unreasonable to assume that Khan's conception was delayed by time agent interference as well.

Khan did not figure out HOW to augment himself... All the original researchers are really old / dead in 2025...  

23 hours ago, marinw said:

I stand coreected

Picard: I correct you sir.

Jellicoe: I stand corrected.

[AWhittle]

Few things

In the Terminator movies, it was said in T3 that the events of T2 didn't prevent the Skynet/Judgement Day. It still happened later on. It was just delayed. In a similar vein, (and from what the Romulan time spy said) all these temporal shenanigans moved Khan's birth/Eugenics War/ Botany Bay exile from the mid 90s to the mid 21st century.

Spock still existed being half human half Vulcan with an isolationist Earth

A decent retcon from the TOS  "Space Seed" episode.

So much for continuity and canon: Between how many died in WW3, the Enterprise looking so different, the Klingons with ridgest.

At this point.. it is  all a mess.

 

Aside from that... How about Kirk vs. Magnus Carlsen 🤣

[paigow]

Kirk may not always want to die for the Prime Directive, but will always die to fix a timeline...

 

 

[MissLucas]

I like La'an but I think there could have been better ways to explore the toll of her heritage. I also wonder if her new-found clarity will survive the next episode.

Also: sci-fi shows without a Tardis in the opening credits should give time-travel a rest for a decade or two.

I loved the intro though I do hope the future is better at sound-proofing!

 

[ofmd]

I love myself a good time travel story.

I quit this episode after 12 or 15 min or so because

a) I found the budding attraction narrative forced and very unconvincing

b) I really, really don't like this Kirk and

c) the rest was just lame buddy show 'bantering.'

So I have no idea as to whether this was a good time travel story.

 

I do like seeing more of La'an and don't mind her 'brooding, chip on shoulder' arc if told well.

However, you need to do more to show her frustrations. A mild quarrel about a lost item and a very polite Vulcan promising to make less noise?! I had to laugh out loud.

So far, this season for me:

Ep1: Bad. Ep2: Good. Not great but good. 3: Nope.

And it has nothing to do with the lack of Pike, although I like him very much.

ETA: Oh, and framing a stranger for theft? Not cool, La'an.

Edited July 2, 2023 by ofmd

[revbfc]

Why couldn’t the timecops have provided La’an with some counseling services?  Do they not have those in the future?  
 

I’m also having a legit hard time with Kirk not look anything like Kirk.  I like the actor a lot, but there’s nothing about his presence that immediately signals to the audience who tf it is.

Edited July 2, 2023 by revbfc

[Prevailing Wind]

31 minutes ago, revbfc said:

 I like the actor a lot, but there’s nothing about his presence that immediately signals to the audience who tf it is.

Perhaps if he had his shirt torn at the shoulder?

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

I really, really don't like this Kirk and

One issue in this episode which you correctly turned off was that the Kirk here isnt even the "real" Kirk from last season. So rather than moving fans along to accept the young, actual Kirk...they introduced an alternate Kirk who had to be different. For instance the actual Kirk (as I will call him) would never have just hand-waved away his entire existence because La'an said it was better in her world. This Kirk was adamant about leaving timeline as-is to save his universe, but then had 2 hot dogs and a hot shower (literally), and suddenly was all "Eh whatever, let's just annihilate the existence of everything and everyone I have ever known."

Just bad writing all the way around imho. 

[starri]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

or instance the actual Kirk (as I will call him) would never have just hand-waved away his entire existence because La'an said it was better in her world. This Kirk was adamant about leaving timeline as-is to save his universe, but then had 2 hot dogs and a hot shower (literally), and suddenly was all "Eh whatever, let's just annihilate the existence of everything and everyone I have ever known."

He didn't, though.

He only fully got onboard when La'an told him that in her universe, his brother was alive.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ditto comments upthread, alt Kirk was like the Jim Carrey version to me too.

In-your-face product placement for the cherry red Challenger. (I just found out that particular model costs in excess of $120k. Is this really the audience Dodge is looking for?)

I thought it got unusually far into the episode before alt Kirk tried to get romantic with La'an. Even bigger surprise for me was that she was into it.

Okay episode, at least better than season 2 of Picard. Needed more Pike.

Quote

lame buddy show 'bantering.'

Yeah, that part felt forced to me. The writers tried too hard to sell buddy stuff, IMO. But maybe it'll pay off in a future episode.

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, revbfc said:

Why couldn’t the timecops have provided La’an with some counseling services?  Do they not have those in the future?  

Eh, timecops are jerks who care for nothing beyond keeping the timeline intact. That seems to be the one constant when it comes to time travelling plots.

[paigow]

These Time Cops will definitely show up to make sure that Pike does not avoid his accident...

[marinw]

The Time Cops are asshats. And why do they keep having to recruit random people to do all the things?

Edited July 3, 2023 by marinw

[paigow]

Young Khan is supposed to have a gun... A Romulan T-800 is on its way... Looking for Sarah Kahnner

Edited July 2, 2023 by paigow

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

One issue in this episode which you correctly turned off was that the Kirk here isnt even the "real" Kirk from last season. So rather than moving fans along to accept the young, actual Kirk...they introduced an alternate Kirk who had to be different. For instance the actual Kirk (as I will call him) would never have just hand-waved away his entire existence because La'an said it was better in her world. This Kirk was adamant about leaving timeline as-is to save his universe, but then had 2 hot dogs and a hot shower (literally), and suddenly was all "Eh whatever, let's just annihilate the existence of everything and everyone I have ever known."

Just bad writing all the way around imho. 

 

AlternaKirk sacrificed himself to allow his brother to live in La'an's timeline.  It was for the love of Sam Kirk, who died in AKirk's time. 

[tv-talk]

4 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

AlternaKirk sacrificed himself to allow his brother to live in La'an's timeline.  It was for the love of Sam Kirk, who died in AKirk's time. 

Would real Kirk have done so? Never. If so he'd have saved Joan Collins in the very episode this one was patterned after. At any rate, I just think introducing alt-Kirk before actual young Kirk was developed in the show was not the best move. Just my $.02 of course.

[Affogato]

I thought someone raised in space and also possibly inside the moon could be forgiven if he wanted to take a little time to look around Earth as it had been before it was a toxic mass of rubble. I also think he might, in general, be supporting La'an because her Earth was not a pile of toxic rubble. He may have had that small hope that he might slip through the cracks into the better universe as well. Bones is a pessimist but Kirk was fairly optimistic. I liked Wesley in this episode and I could see Kirk in him, possibly a younger Kirk, but I felt like he had the basics of the characterization. Of course, still haven't seen him that much.

I'm able to accept that he is that good at chess, but not that he was able to make that much money playing chess. WTF? But better than mugging people.

I was moved both by La'an taking ownership of her fate. She now can only blame herself for her ancestor's reputation and its influence on her life. She also realizes, I think, how lonely she is, holding on to this. I hope we see her open up to others.

This may be why she isn't on the Enterprise when Kirk takes over.

That said I wonder that the universe doesn't get whiplash from all of this nonsense.

I loved that they did product placement for duckduckgo instead of that competitor. Of course that may have been an indication that it was another world, but probably a better one.

47 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Would real Kirk have done so? Never. If so he'd have saved Joan Collins in the very episode this one was patterned after. At any rate, I just think introducing alt-Kirk before actual young Kirk was developed in the show was not the best move. Just my $.02 of course.

I think it wasn't necessarily for Sam, but for the better universe and for the Earth as a better place--filled with people.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Affogato

[Colorado David]

meh ok episode, not great, not horrible either. i am getting tired of time travelling stories. why did the time cop who gave her the time device not just use one of their own people, rather than relying on basically a stranger? surely if they are from the future they should be smarter than a security officer from the past.

i am a bit confused, how does alternakirk dying change the fact that sam died?  wouldn't that timeline stay intact even if alternakirk died??

that is the richest group of park chess players i have ever seen, unless he spent hours there playing hundreds of people.

i too miss pike, lets bring him back writers.

[paigow]

56 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I loved that they did product placement for duckduckgo instead of that competitor. Of course that may have been an indication that it was another world, but probably a better one.

A world without Facebook & Google WOULD be more likely to develop Cold Fusion...

[marinw]

The fancy hotel room was mentioned upthread. Can you really pay for a room like that with cash? Don’t you need a credit card?

[paigow]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:13 AM, Prevailing Wind said:

Did someone rip it partially off him to prove it? I must have missed that part, but I'm sure it was there.

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, marinw said:

The fancy hotel room was mentioned upthread. Can you really pay for a room like that with cash? Don’t you need a credit card?

Its Canada

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:16 PM, Chit Chat said:

He would've had to ante up in order to get into the game, wouldn't he?  That was eyeroll #1 for me; the super fancy hotel room was eyeroll #2; leaving a (presumed) loaded gun next to a child was eyeroll #3.   

Yes, presumably Kirk would have to ante for his first victory. They could have stole the money for the initial ante, or offered some non-monetary ante, like Kirk's jacket. The Orville had an episode where two of the characters went into a biker bar and had an armwrestling context between a robot where when they won they'd get access to the biker's motorcycle but they put up a date with the other as the collateral. They could have done something similar.

The hotel room doesn't seem super-fancy to me, and all they needed was to get their foot in the door. I'm guessing a hotel room would like that would be like $300-500/night. So paying a cash deposit of that would be enough for a single night.

Honestly, it didn't even register to me that the gun was left near Khan. But it doesn't bother me that much. La'an was still traumatized from Kirk having been shot, and so she was probably not thinking as straight as she might otherwise have done. Also, it's worth pointing out that this is not a random child but Khan. Is the fear that Khan would shoot himself, or some one else, or that it would be a bad influence on him?

The main disappointment to me is that the Khan we got seemed so infantile given that he appeared physically to be 10+ years old. For my money, they should have either cast someone who looked physically to be like 4-6, or they should have given the actor they cast a hint of having the superior intellect and arrogance that the various adult Khans have. 

[Chit Chat]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm guessing a hotel room would like that would be like $300-500/night. So paying a cash deposit of that would be enough for a single night.

Hotels normally required a credit card on file, even if you intend to pay cash.  It's required in case you have any add-on charges to the room.  Also, if you steal or damage something, you're going to pay!!

[Prevailing Wind]

57 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

Hotels normally required a credit card on file, even if you intend to pay cash.  It's required in case you have any add-on charges to the room.  Also, if you steal or damage something, you're going to pay!!

Taking to small talk...

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

Hotels normally required a credit card on file, even if you intend to pay cash.  It's required in case you have any add-on charges to the room.  Also, if you steal or damage something, you're going to pay!!

Normally, they do of course require a credit or debit card for deposits. And normally, that's not an issue, because getting a credit card or a debit card is pretty simple for many adults.

But I'm pretty certain that if someone said "I don't have a credit card on me/at all, but here's $1,000 in cash to cover incidentals" they would allow it.

https://buffalonews.com/travel/how-to-check-in-to-a-hotel-without-a-credit-card/article_a8a11b24-e773-5e4b-9213-d0ec63bf719a.html

Pay the security deposit upfront in cash

Rather than putting a hold on your credit card, some hotels might allow you to put down a cash security deposit, returned to you upon checkout.

This could be challenging though, given that it’s common for security deposits to run north of $200 (and sometimes well north). High-end properties can even have a $1,000 security deposit and — while they may accept cash — you might not want to travel with that much cash in your wallet. You might not have that much cash, period.

Then again, paying with cash has one main benefit: Your funds will be released immediately upon checkout (as opposed to the multiple days it can take for holds to be released on a credit or debit card).

Of course, as good as Kirk might be at chess, that's a lot of time for him to get to $1k-$2k if you figure that he's doing maybe $50 a match.

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But I'm pretty certain that if someone said "I don't have a credit card on me/at all, but here's $1,000 in cash to cover incidentals" they would allow it.

I worked in the hotel business 30 years ago, and that's not how it worked.  A credit card was required for check-in.  Things may have changed since then.  That hotel room appeared to be top notch kind of room.  I really don't believe that he made that much money playing chess to have afforded it!  Plus, I don't think he had any I.D. either.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Hotels normally required a credit card on file, even if you intend to pay cash.  It's required in case you have any add-on charges to the room.  Also, if you steal or damage something, you're going to pay!!

A few years back, I ran into a situation where I didn’t have access to a credit card when I needed to get a hotel and the ones I checked with said you could leave a cash deposit rather than a credit card. The amount of the cash deposit varied and was higher than the room rate. I have no problem with the idea they could have gotten a room with cash only. 

ID would probably be a bigger issue but they bribed their way across the border and probably did the same at the hotel. 

[cdnalor]

That hotel room may not have been the most expensive but it still struck me as out of the price range for a chess hustler.  It would have been more believable for them to hole up in a pay-by-the-hour fleabag hotel, but I don't know if such a thing exists in downtown Toronto.

[millennium]

I just khan't with this episode.

[Chit Chat]

10 hours ago, cdnalor said:

It would have been more believable for them to hole up in a pay-by-the-hour fleabag hotel, but I don't know if such a thing exists in downtown Toronto.

I pictured them in some dive like the one Kyle Reese & Sarah Connor of The Terminator movie stayed in, not some 5-star hotel!! 

[AWhittle]

On 7/2/2023 at 4:10 PM, paigow said:

These Time Cops will definitely show up to make sure that Pike does not avoid his accident...

Time cops, TVA in the Loki show, Kang in the MCU.   .. all better enforcers and maintainers of the timeline than Gallifrey 🤣

But in Star Trek, too much travel back... Picard season 2 overlapped with the Gabriel Bell situation from ds9.

Wouldn't the Watchers like Gary7,  Talinn with all their devices and sensors pick up on the Romulan spy who was there 30 years and the Temporal wars, the back and forth fighting to steer history?

No coordination of stories between shows. Only retcons and contradictions that we fans pick up and argue ad infinitum on fourms.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

I pictured them in some dive like the one Kyle Reese & Sarah Connor of The Terminator movie stayed in

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, AWhittle said:

Time cops, TVA in the Loki show, Kang in the MCU.   .. all better enforcers and maintainers of the timeline than Gallifrey 🤣

But in Star Trek, too much travel back... Picard season 2 overlapped with the Gabriel Bell situation from ds9.

Wouldn't the Watchers like Gary7,  Talinn with all their devices and sensors pick up on the Romulan spy who was there 30 years and the Temporal wars, the back and forth fighting to steer history?

No coordination of stories between shows. Only retcons and contradictions that we fans pick up and argue ad infinitum on fourms.

If you take this story at face value, not only do the factions in the temporal wars fight changes, but Time itself does at well. So even though Khan and the Eugenics Wars were supposed to happen  in the 1990s, various interventions have now happened so that the Eugenics Wars haven't yet happened in the SNW continuity. 

No one came and intervened to stop the death of Real! Gabriel Bell, as far as we know, or Sisko setting himself up as fake Gabriel Bell. 

[millennium]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:57 AM, tv-talk said:

Quite possibly the single worst episode of any Trek I've ever seen.  Not only was it riddled with absurdities (Kirk made $10k playing chess in the park?),

Worse, he didn't use any condiments on the hot dogs!   No ketchup, no mustard, no relish ... he ate them plain!   Unless you're Joey Chestnut, you put something on the hotdog.

 

On 6/30/2023 at 10:03 AM, Sandman said:

I took that as a nod to the Kelvin timeline,

Wasn't the Kelvin Kirk also born in space?

The Jim Carrey Kirk is awful IMO.   What were they thinking?

 

On 6/29/2023 at 11:37 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Daughter. Her name is Clover. She is a beauty!

Clover Mount?   It sounds like a motel in upstate New York.