S05.E06: The Testi-Roastial

[Pallas]

Susie is honored at the Friars Club.

[AuntieMame]

Am I the only one who feels like they just assassinated Susie’s character? I don’t mean the roast either. I watched this episode avidly; it was a tight episode in terms of structure and gave us answers to the coy teases of the flash forwards, but they turned Susie into a horrible person. Vulgar, selfish, greedy and ruthless. I’ve never viewed Susie that way. Yes, she was quirky and foul mouthed, yes she wanted to succeed, but she also genuinely wanted her clients to succeed and her good heart was always apparent. The only time they showed the Susie we’ve come to know in this episode was when her mentor was dying. 
 
If I was Midge and those were the circumstances, I would have been furious too. Joel certainly ended up neck deep in things. The money laundering makes sense. Nightclubs are a great business to do the laundry, especially back in the day when they were overwhelmingly cash businesses. But I still hate how they took a truly original character and turned her into a heartless Hollywood shark. 
 
PS - Chava is beyond frightening. 

[wmdekooning]

39 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Joel certainly ended up neck deep in things.

See, I have to say I pretty much always liked Joel (Cheating on Midge aside, but without we’d have no show).

Lacking much of a backstory, I think of him as being a tough guy, he’s taken at least two beatdowns I can recall, and that he was willing to be owned by the mob and was a stand up guy when he got pinched, what can you say?

Mazel tov Joel, you’re a real mensch.

So Susie became a show biz baddie. My thoughts are that when the truth came out, Midge called her out and they parted ways, that’s when Susie broke bad. Perhaps when she takes up Midge’s offer to meet she will return to the Susie we remember best…

 

[AuntieMame]

1 minute ago, wmdekooning said:

See, I have to say I pretty much always liked Joel (Cheating on Midge aside, but without we’d have no show).

Lacking much of a backstory, I think of him as being a tough guy, he’s taken at least two beatdowns I can recall, and that he was willing to be owned by the mob and was a stand up guy when he got pinched, what can you say?

Mazel tov Joel, you’re a real mensch.

So Susie became a show biz baddie. My thoughts are that when the truth came out, Midge called her out and they parted ways, that’s when Susie broke bad. Perhaps when she takes up Midge’s offer to meet she will return to the Susie we remember best…

 

I’ve always been with the family court judge, they should have worked things out. But Midge might not have been Mrs. Maisel had they done that, but then again… And this episode we hear Midge saying she’s still in love with Joel. While leaving Philip Roth at the altar. I had trouble picturing Midge and Philip Roth together, but okay. I did love Midge’s wedding suit. Very Bianca Jagger. 

I agree completely that Joel has quietly and consistently been a mensch to everyone. I’m not surprised that he protected Archie. I’m not surprised that he and Midge are in some ways still spousal. I’m not surprised that Joel was willing to quietly sacrifice so much to see that Midge wasn’t owned. 

[kwnyc]

So Midge left Philip Roth at the altar??? I love the multiverse of this show.

And while Susie turned into a monster...or did she? She actually remained loyal to everyone who was loyal to her. Maybe when you deal with monsters in show biz, you become one.

(Susie only seemed happy when she was hanging out with the kitchen staff at the club. And she probably WILL keep her word and introduce them to the B-52s. Yes, and Susie learned to golf.)

Harry Drake...Susie was the only one there at the end.

She didn't just see Dinah as an employee, and we find out she's running Susie's New York office.

Mike clearly grew to like her. She got Mike the break he needed, and he remembered it.

AND she started a foundation in honor of Jackie. That's some love there.

You have to give some credit to the person who put together 1) The French Connection; 2) An imaginary show that we all now want to see with Elizabeth Montgomery & Andy Griffith; AND 3) Jesus Christ Superstar. All in one day!

Tom Cruise IS unfuckably short.

It was Joel's choice to trade himself to the mob for Midge, in his never-ending quest for redemption. He knew what he was getting into. He knew where Susie kept the second set of books; he found his parents' second set of books in the first season. And because HE's a loyal guy, he kept Archie out of it. 

And Midge is still with Imogene, or "Dodie." 

I think Midge was right about everything she guessed when she confronted Susie: about playing casinos to take care of Susie's gambling debts. It was a great scene for both of them. Susie was clearly caught out, and Midge was remorseless.

The only thing I wonder about is whether Midge's request for a reunion isn't because of something bad. Fingers crossed...

[Quilt Fairy]

I didn't like the roast at all, but I still liked the episode for the different backstories.   Future Susie seems as joyless as future Midge, but perhaps that's just been since their break-up.   Characters are more endearing when they're struggling than when they're successful, I guess.   I am ridiculously relieved that Joel appears to have spent less than 5 years in prison, not 25 years. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Quilt Fairy

[EtheltoTillie]

Midge’s wedding suit and hat was also a callback to Kate Hepburn in The Philadelphia Story. 
I’m still digesting this. I didn’t realize I could have watched this hours ago!  

Edited May 5, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

The whole episode played like a Goodfellas homage (kitchen scenes, anyone?).  Who was the narrator who sounded like Ray Liotta, Ray Liotta being unavailable?  The best I can come up with is uncredited Hank Azaria.  He’s listed in the IMDB credits for this episode. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

We found out the origin of the “nobody who works on the show gets on the show” rule, and it was just a George superstition. I’m guessing George’s departure will herald a new order, and Midge will get to be on the show. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[greekmom]

8 hours ago, wmdekooning said:

Mazel tov Joel, you’re a real mensch.

Damn it Joel. I hated you in season 1 but love you now.  You deserved better.

Talk about more cast from Gilmore Girls. (Hey Kirk, hey Doyle!)  But the flashbacks really explained alot and brought us up to speed.

I don't see Susie as a villain.  She had a vice and had a way to pay it off.  Joel really should have told Midge about Susie's gambling issues way back.  At least then Midge would be on the look out for any problems.  

I did like how Susie was very protective of the people she cared about (Midge, Dinah, Harry).  

Damn Chava is scary.  Joel being prepared in case the FBI caught up with him was smart by protecting his family, Artie and having a criminal lawyer.  I do hope he had money stashed in Bermuda or Switzerland. 

[Cloudly]

I had been in the camp of the flash-forwards being fake, sort of an "A Christmas Carol" cautionary vision of the future. This episode managed to both convince me both they're very real and that they're a pretty solid way to give us the whole tale now that this is the last season. 

Susie's reputation certainly overshadows her and makes her seem worse than she is. Very believable about a woman in a man's world.

I wonder what's left for the final episodes? What's on your bingo cards? I don't want the crowning moment to be Midge bringing down the house on the Gordon Ford show, although I'm sure it will be. I want a whole ep with Midge and Lenny, sober and happy, in a West Coast bubble, eloping to Palm Springs or something, before tragedy strikes. I want the flash-forwards to be done now, and all the players to come out to play one last time in a great big 60's fantasy.

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The whole episode played like a Goodfellas homage (kitchen scenes, anyone?).  Who was the narrator who sounded like Ray Liotta, Ray Liotta being unavailable?  The best I can come up with is uncredited Hank Azaria.  He’s listed in the IMDB credits for this episode. 

I listened really hard but it doesn't quite sound like Hank Azaria to me. But then why else would he be listed? And of course, he can do anything with his voice...

[greekmom]

30 minutes ago, Cloudly said:

I wonder what's left for the final episodes? What's on your bingo cards? I don't want the crowning moment to be Midge bringing down the house on the Gordon Ford show, although I'm sure it will be. I want a whole ep with Midge and Lenny, sober and happy, in a West Coast bubble, eloping to Palm Springs or something, before tragedy strikes. I want the flash-forwards to be done now, and all the players to come out to play one last time in a great big 60's fantasy.

Spoiler

IMDb says Luke Kirby will be in episode 9 of this season. So who knows?

I'm actually thinking that the end game is a Susie/Midge reunion and Midge getting married with Joel again. I think she conquered the Gordon Ford show years before.

[shapeshifter]

If the Writers Strike had hit right after this episode was in the can, it would've been a fine finale. 

Am I the only one who cried when Susie cried at Midge's video?

 

10 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

did love Midge’s wedding suit. Very Bianca Jagger. 

I hated the pants suit until I realized Midge was wearing it because she hated the idea of getting married to Roth.
But, yes, it is totally Bianca Jagger: https://i.pinimg.com/236x/23/f5/e0/23f5e07b025df5e2011a19be90e76d16.jpg
Every piece of wardrobe on this show is perfectly curated. The appropriate Emmy better be awarded. 

Speaking of which. If there was a Best Episode This Season, I'd nominate this one.  
And maybe the one with Lenny. 
And the one with the industrial musical.

 

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

Damn Chava is scary. 

Heh. If they could've deployed Chava on Nick and Frankie instead of Joel, he'd have never gone to prison.
I'm sad that Joel did 5 years instead of less than 2, but it serves the story.

[chaifan]

As someone who really has been hating the flash forwards, wow!  I loved this episode!  It might be my favorite episode of the whole show. 

@kwnyc, I agree with everything you said!  A million likes to your post.  (And a million likes to your photo with Phil.  Well done!)

Yes, Suzie became one tough broad during her career, but wasn't she always?  She remained loyal to those who were loyal to her, and never looked down on anyone.  I loved the scene with the caddies and the kitchen staff.  That's Suzie.  And protecting Dinah, and moving her up in the business.  And Harry.  Oh, wow.  I loved those scenes in the hospital. 

I loved the guys all hanging around after the roast to swap Suzie stories.  It wasn't mere gossip.  There was some serious respect at that table.  Kudos to the writers and editors on this - jumping back and forth between different timelines and stories could have been a jumbled mess.  But damn, they really made it work. 

Here's my issue with Midge blowing up the whole partnership...  Yes, Suzie got herself in with the mob due to her gambling early on.  But...  1) Even if Suzie didn't have gambling debts, as all the guys pointed out after the roast, the mob had everyone in the business.  She would have been in with the mob one way or another.  2) She never asked Joel to sacrifice himself for Midge.  It seems like she never even knew what he did.  3) Being the in nightclub business, Joel also likely would have had gotten in the mob one way or another, even without Suzie's issues.  I think Joel would have ended up in the same place even if Suzie was squeaky clean all along.

My one disappointment with Suzie is that after all this time, she still has a gambling problem.   It would have been nice for her to conquer that at some point. 

They got me with the film clip of Midge at the roast.  I didn't expect that, and I didn't expect her to offer out the olive branch that she did.  And I loved that Suzie didn't walk out on it, and just absorbed it.

I love how they've styled Suzie as she aged.  Loved the golf outfits, and holy hell, I want want want that red golf cart!  I loved her look at the roast - upscale, but still Suzie.  Midge's older outfits are hit and miss for me.  Hated the sparkly sheath dress with the bow, loved the wedding outfit and whatever that floofy thing was that she was wearing in the film clip.  I still think they're aging Joel way too much way too quick. 

Does anyone know the timeline here?  How long was this after the 60 Minutes interview?  How long was it after Joel was arrested in the synagogue? 

 

[bybrandy]

Joel got in deep with the mob to save Midge 30%.  Susie isn't the reason Joel went down and I have no doubt that Midge was right about Suzie being in trouble because of her gambling debts and booking Midge in gigs to keep those debts paid and Midge gets to be pissed about that but it isn't on Suzie that Joel spent 24 years laundering money for the mob.  That is a choice Joel made.  People saying he's a mench for protecting Archie, I mean sure, but Archie didn't sell himself to the mob Joel doesn't get extra points for taking the whole fall for something that was all on him getting himself into.   

And I don't think they turned Suzie into a monster.   She has a gabmling addiction and has since we've known her.   The stakes went up as she got deeper in and more succesful... shocking not shocking.   But the only person we've ever seen care about Suzie enough to help her get out is Midge and when Midge identified the problem she cut Suzie out and that's fine.  But suzie doesn't have a Joel tilting at windmills for her.  Midge has two.  And without Suzie she's selling wigs.   She's not doing any better without Suzie than Suzie is doing without her.  Just Midge's version of not doing as well is stylish and flashy.

[Cloudly]

2 hours ago, greekmom said:

  Reveal spoiler

IMDb says Luke Kirby will be in episode 9 of this season. So who knows?

I'm actually thinking that the end game is a Susie/Midge reunion and Midge getting married with Joel again. I think she conquered the Gordon Ford show years before.

I somewhat agree, but Midge getting married to Joel would ring very hollow when we know about all those other marriages and dalliances. Or, do you mean a marriage in the 80s, when Joel gets released from prison? I guess that would make sense. And I feel we kind of got the reunion in this episode, with Susie seeming very willing to accept Midge's offered olive branch. But of course it could be milked way more than that. But oh, my heart aches for Lenny. I still rewatch the Florida episode sometimes when I'm feeling nostalgic or in need of romance, lol. The way Lenny looks at Midge at that night club, and the goodbye by Lenny's poolside hotel room. 

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Am I the only one who cried when Susie cried at Midge's video?

Nope.  

[basil]

In the flash-forwards, the keys around Susie's neck have been replaced by what looks like dog tags.

Any ideas about that?

[Carolina Girl]

7 minutes ago, basil said:

In the flash-forwards, the keys around Susie's neck have been replaced by what looks like dog tags.

Any ideas about that?

I'm thinking those are Jackie's dog tags.  I seem to recall she found them in his belongings after he died.  

[basil]

5 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

I'm thinking those are Jackie's dog tags.  I seem to recall she found them in his belongings after he died.  

Thanks. I had guessed that but missed the scene where she found them.

Alex/Susie completely broke my heart when a dying Harry looked at Susie and called out his daughter's name. Susie looked at the nurse, and when she nodded, Susie took Harry's hand, saying, "I'm here, Dad".

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by basil
got a name wrong. Thanks AriAu

[AriAu]

Many, many thoughts about this episode.

Are we to believe that Susie got the French Connection made by threatening the studio guy with her Mob connections-he looked mighty scared after their talk on the tee box. The other 2 deals were with her guile/charm/bullshit, but that looked like something else.

Quote

Being the in nightclub business, Joel also likely would have had gotten in the mob one way or another, even without Suzie's issues.  I think Joel would have ended up in the same place even if Suzie was squeaky clean all along.

There is being in with the mob and then there is being IN with the Mob. He agreed to go all the way IN to save Midge-wasn't just paying protection money (which he would have had to do at some point...and may have been doing with his Landlord in Chinatown), but he agreed to (ok, actually suggested) getting financing which is mob talk for laundering and paying high "juice" on the money, which is a whole other, very direct partnership with the muscle. 

Did he do it because  he is totally and obviously in love with her or because he is seeking redemption for the past or otherwise trying to make it up to her....or is he just a great guy, or, more likely, all of the abve, but I don't think he deserves the criticism for his actions....you know other than the fact that it was totally illegal!

Quote

They got me with the film clip of Midge at the roast.  I didn't expect that, and I didn't expect her to offer out the olive branch that she did.  And I loved that Suzie didn't walk out on it, and just absorbed it

I know others disagree, but I have no idea why Midge extended the olive branch-i could never forgive Susie for letting this happen.... YMMV. By the way, i thought it was also weird/inappropriate for Midge to do it on a video in that setting rather than reaching out to Susie directly, unless Susie had blocked previous attempts.

By the way, was Joel out of prison by the time of the roast? I did get a little confused with the time line this episode...other than I think the roast was the latest date we have seen so far. EDITED TO ADD-Yes, per the BS session after the roast, Joel had just gotten "out of the klink".

Gotta say, they have done a great job making Midge look great at all ages....but not quite as good as Rachel Brosnahan in her Met Gala dress!

Quote

Alex/Susie completely broke my heart when a dying Jackie called out his daughter's name. Susie looked at the nurse, and when she nodded, Susie took Jackie's hand, saying, "Yes, dad"

It was heartbreaking and showed how loyal she could be, but that was Harry, not Jackie

Edited May 5, 2023 by AriAu

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, Cloudly said:

I somewhat agree, but Midge getting married to Joel would ring very hollow when we know about all those other marriages and dalliances. Or, do you mean a marriage in the 80s, when Joel gets released from prison? I guess that would make sense. And I feel we kind of got the reunion in this episode, with Susie seeming very willing to accept Midge's offered olive branch. But of course it could be milked way more than that. But oh, my heart aches for Lenny. I still rewatch the Florida episode sometimes when I'm feeling nostalgic or in need of romance, lol. The way Lenny looks at Midge at that night club, and the goodbye by Lenny's poolside hotel room. 

Yeah I meant either in the 80s or 90s - at least at some point when Joel gets out of jail.

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm very torn about the Joel sacrifice.  On the one hand, he's showing he really cares.  But on the other hand, he's doing something much more dangerous.  Also, he was obviously agreeing to launder money, which would come from drugs and prostitution, as well as gambling, things for which people suffer. 

Gambling is very hard to quit.  There are many stars who were apparently well known for their gambling problems, Walter Matthau, apparently.  In other threads we had recently posted about the artists who died from heroin--Lenny, Chet Baker, Stan Getz.

Edited May 5, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

I think it's a mashup of Bianca Jagger and Kate Hepburn, who in real life always wore pants. 

Here's the final clip from The Philadelphia Story, with big hat at 1:30.  This is where she stops herself from marrying the wrong man, which is why this is apt.  In this movie she says "I won't be got out of things any more."  In Mrs. Maisel, Midge says she needs Susie to get her out of it and won't make the call herself.  This is one of those movies I have memorized.  Another, ironically, is Goodfellas. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[AriAu]

By the way....a little timeline just from this episode. Let me know if i missed anything.

1960ish (maybe 59)-1st Gaslight show. Date comes from working backwards from dates in the show and 25 year relationship

1961-62ish Dinah got beat up and Susie really went all in with the Mob/Muscle. 

Christmas 1962??? Joel tears up Susie's office and makes deal with Frank and Nicky. We know it's Christmas, and I assume 62, because of the events of the prior 4 seasons, but could be 61, wasnt really dated

1963-Toots Shore scene with Darren Criss, looking nothing like Blaine from Glee!

1970- Susie's "Triple Crown" day.

1970ish-Midge starts touring non-stop. In 1985 synagogue fight, she says she has been on the road non-stop for 15 years.

1971-Midge sold out shows at the Copa (per 60 Minutes)

1973-Hawaii (non) Wedding. By the way, WOW were Abe & Rose awful....all they cared about was the very expensive cake and not their daughter, but given the Zelda scene last week, no surprise how selfish and self centered they have become/been portrayed.

1985-Joel gets arrested....break-up..."How I'll remember you......small". It was amazing that Midge didn't look hurt by Susie calling her an ungrateful c---, yet Susie looked devastated by every word out of Midge's mouth. My guess is Fall '85 since i would guess that was Rosh Hashanah with the full synagogue.

1985-The opening monologue....obviously after the arrest.

1987-Midge visits Joel in Prison. says he'll be out in 4-6 months.

1990-Roast. Joel had "just gotten out of the klink" per one of the guys.....so who knows

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by AriAu

[kwnyc]

On second watch: Susie's great day happens when she's playing with Harry Drake's clubs.

Gideon Glick is listed in the credits, but I don't recall seeing him. Could he be the old guy with the beard in front of the Friars?

If Joel really took the fall for the Mob, and didn't give anyone up, they made sure he was protected in prison, and he probably does have money stashed offshore.

He probably made them more money than Midge would have.

And Midge says she's "feeling nostalgic" in the video. That gives me a bad feeling...like she's getting her affairs in order.

[whiporee]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:31 AM, chaifan said:

Here's my issue with Midge blowing up the whole partnership...  Yes, Suzie got herself in with the mob due to her gambling early on.  But...  1) Even if Suzie didn't have gambling debts, as all the guys pointed out after the roast, the mob had everyone in the business.  She would have been in with the mob one way or another.

Susie stole from Midge. That 30 percent the mob got, that was money she never told Midge about when she negotiated deals. It was stealing, for her own interests.

In addition, she used Midge for decades. Midge's talent is what gave Susie the chance to become what she became. Susie may have given Midge the potential of show business, but without Midge, Susie's got nothing but her little room. And Susie screwed Midge plenty -- Midge was clear about not wanting to be hooked up with the mob. Susie's favors came for Sophie and to keep herself alive, get herself an office, increase her own ability to get clients. Susie's mob pals did nothing to help Midge, but Susie's actions tied Midge in in a way that got Joel thrown in jail. And the other thing is that Susie HAD to know. The Mob doesn't just release someone from their arrangement because they like you -- the had to have told her Joel had arranged to free Midge. And Susie kept that secret every big as much as Joel did. 

I know people like to look at Susie as the underdog on this show, but the person Midge owes is Lenny. Susie asked him to come that night, but he only did so because he liked Midge. Susie screwed her over by taking Sophie as a client -- the person who had tried to destroy Midge, and Susie takes her on -- by booking Midge on the telethon despite Sophie being there, by not getting some sort of kill fee from Shy when they were negotiating, by not finding a way to counteract the negative press that followed Shy dumping Midge, by NOT KNOWING ABOUT THE NO STAFF ON THE SHOW RULE BEFORE GETTIN MIDGE TO TAKE THE JOB, by not even talking to the Tony Bennett people to present an offer, and by stealing from her for decades. 

It was an abusive relationship, for sure, but it was Susie doing the abuse. Her speech in the synagogue could be made by every husband caught cheating -- I did it all for you, baby. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by whiporee

[bybrandy]

No, Suzie didn't get Joel thrown in jail.   Joel got Joel got thrown in jail.   Joel made the decision to save Midge 30% and get her out of the mob by going harder with the mob than Midge ever would have been.  He made that choice on his own for whatever reason but he went looking for that choice.  He decided he needed to act on his own and he acted on his own.  

And he didn't tell Midge that Suzie was in over her head.   And he didn't tell Midge what he'd done previously for Suzie.  He let Midge believe things that weren't true.  And suddenly he's a good guy but he's as much the reason as Suzie is booking Midge in Vegas to pay off debts as Suzie is because Joel has information he doesn't think Midge needs to know.   He let Midge get used by Suzie for DECADES after he stepped in with the mob.   And you can't say he didn't know about Suzie's issues because he does.  He's stepped in there before.

I don't know while all of a sudden Joel is this hero because he made a stupid self sacrifice for stupid reasons but didn't tell Midge the things she needed to know.   I'm pretty sure ASP wants us to think this is a hero move from Joel too but it's not.  It's stupidity guised as selflessness.  If he is all in for Midge then he goes to her and gives her all the information and they work out a plan together instead he does it all by himselfe, Midge is still in the dark about Suzie's problems and Joel now in trouble too.  

And as much as Suzie used Midge, Suzie is going to get that guy fired to get the policy change that gets Midge on the show for her big break.   Suzie has to pivot every time Midge blows up her career and find new pathways for her and Midge blows up her career n the regular.   Talent and management is a parasitic relationshiip on both sides.  Midge gets to be pissed but when she dumps Suzie she's not booking Ceaser's she's booking QVC and Kansas.   

 

[debraran]

Does anyone think Lenny will have another cameo or that plane left when he went to San Diego? I'd love another meetup before he dies. Just writing that makes me sad.

They did a fabulous job aging Joel more than anyone. Midge looks basically the same, not as fresh but still cute. Puffier hair and slightly more modest dresses. Watching some shows, 15 years is a different hair style and that's it. I loved the golf scenes and since I just saw JCS play for the first time, that part made me smile. : )

Why did they make Midge's parents so stereotypical cheap and cold lately?  They lived well, I get the cake was expensive but they are making them very one dimensional lately. Only slight complaint since the wedding last episode was the same.

 

[SnapHappy]

21 hours ago, wmdekooning said:

So Susie became a show biz baddie. My thoughts are that when the truth came out, Midge called her out and they parted ways, that’s when Susie broke bad. Perhaps when she takes up Midge’s offer to meet she will return to the Susie we remember best…

 

I like this as an explanation, and a potential ending.  

BTW, I highly recommend Alex Borstein's Prime stand up special.  It is a HELL of a ride....

21 hours ago, kwnyc said:

It was Joel's choice to trade himself to the mob for Midge, in his never-ending quest for redemption. He knew what he was getting into. He knew where Susie kept the second set of books; he found his parents' second set of books in the first season. And because HE's a loyal guy, he kept Archie out of it. 

As he pointed out, Midge was the mother of his children.  They needed to be protected and taken care of. 

[shipmate]

I’ve gone back-and-forth with what I think about the timeline jumping this season, but IMHO This episode was by far the best of the season!  The timeline jumps in this ep helped flesh out a lot of the stories we’ve seen glimpses of.

Edited May 6, 2023 by shipmate

[Sarah 103]

16 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The whole episode played like a Goodfellas homage (kitchen scenes, anyone?).  Who was the narrator who sounded like Ray Liotta, Ray Liotta being unavailable?  The best I can come up with is uncredited Hank Azaria.  He’s listed in the IMDB credits for this episode. 

I wouldn't have said Goodfellas specifically, but the whole episode did really feel like Scorcese, especially with the multiple narrators in stories involving organized crime. 

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

I loved the guys all hanging around after the roast to swap Suzie stories.  It wasn't mere gossip.  There was some serious respect at that table.  Kudos to the writers and editors on this - jumping back and forth between different timelines and stories could have been a jumbled mess.  But damn, they really made it work.

I think part of the reason the episode worked was that it was always clear when there was a time jump. It ususally happened with the guys around the table and it was clear someone was telling a story, and then we'd get a flashback to the story. For the choose your own adventure of how Susie got Harry Drake's clients, I'm going with option number three where she's the only one at his bedside when he dies. 

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

Does anyone know the timeline here?  How long was this after the 60 Minutes interview?  How long was it after Joel was arrested in the synagogue? 

The "present" day for this episode is 1990. The event honoring Susie is taking place in 1990, and I am pretty sure Joel is arrested sometime in the mid 1980s.

11 hours ago, Cloudly said:

But oh, my heart aches for Lenny. I still rewatch the Florida episode sometimes when I'm feeling nostalgic or in need of romance, lol. The way Lenny looks at Midge at that night club, and the goodbye by Lenny's poolside hotel room. 

The Florida episode and the Carnegie Hall episode have some of the sexiest, steamiest scenes in TV history as far as I'm concerned. The way he looks at her is pure smolder. I am sure we going to have a final apperance from him before the series is over. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Sarah 103

[txhorns79]

6 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

The "present" day for this episode is 1990. The event honoring Susie is taking place in 1990, and I am pretty sure Joel is arrested sometime in the mid 1980s.

I think he's arrested around 1985.  Midge meets Ethan's fiancee in 1984, and when Joel is arrested, they are married and have a baby.  I did like the Midge/Susie confrontation scene, but I wish they hadn't ended the episode with Midge essentially forgiving her.  I know it had been five years in showtime, but it would have been nice had they given that feud some time to set in before forgiveness was being offered. 

[Sarah 103]

I know its TV and it makes for drama, but would the FBI really interrupt a religious service to arrest someone? Also, based on how full the congregation is and the fact the Midge and her family where there, I'm guessing it's the high holidays, because they don't attend synagogue that often. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I know its TV and it makes for drama, but would the FBI really interrupt a religious service to arrest someone?

I was wondering about this too. Would they do that in a Christian church? 

[embee23]

I'm sorry, but for me, Susie emerging from the limo was the best, most amusing image from all 5 seasons! 

I'm a rabid Maisel fan, and I thought this episode was one of the best, most creative and funniest I've ever seen on ANY show. The writing is just effing  brilliant!

Two more things- in the later-year flash-forward scenes, it's really sad to realize that Moishe, Shirley, Abe & Rose  have passed on. All 4 were such integral, original, indelible characters!

And last - GOD, I miss Lenny. Luke Kirby is an absolute alchemist.

[shapeshifter]

15 minutes ago, embee23 said:

Luke Kirby is an absolute alchemist

Flove this unique descriptor for Luke Kirby in his role as Lenny.

Interesting that we didn't need his presence for this episode to be amazing. 

And no Gordon Ford. Is he supposed to have died before Susie's roast? Maybe AIDs?

I know "Testi-Roastial" is a portmanteau of Testimonial and Roast, but everytime I see it here it looks like Testicle, LOL, which I suspect is no accident by the writers. 

[debraran]

I don't normally watch Kelly but thought their stories of what they did before working fully in acting. (garbage,telemarketer, etc)  and they talk about a slight tease for the ending. "Joel" said you'll be surprised where he is....with Midge I hope. : ) Alex called herself an armadillo who unfolds during the season albeit reluctantly.  Was a fun watch. 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by debraran

[luvthepros]

15 hours ago, kwnyc said:

On second watch: Susie's great day happens when she's playing with Harry Drake's clubs.

Gideon Glick is listed in the credits, but I don't recall seeing him. Could he be the old guy with the beard in front of the Friars?

If Joel really took the fall for the Mob, and didn't give anyone up, they made sure he was protected in prison, and he probably does have money stashed offshore.

He probably made them more money than Midge would have.

And Midge says she's "feeling nostalgic" in the video. That gives me a bad feeling...like she's getting her affairs in order.

Sutton Foster is also listed in the credits on IMDb. How did I miss her?

[EtheltoTillie]

51 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

Sutton Foster is also listed in the credits on IMDb. How did I miss her?

Yes I have no idea either. 

[Sarah 103]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And no Gordon Ford. Is he supposed to have died before Susie's roast? Maybe AIDs?

AIDS seems unlikely unless he's bi, which I haven't seen evidence of. I know gay people were not the only ones who died of AIDS, but in a show like this, that's what it would interpreted as meaning, because they are in the entertainment industry. Especially because I don't see him getting into injectable drugs. I think he married Heddy as a favor to give her cover, but he is still free to have affairs with other women. My guess is lung cancer or something with his liver because of the way everyone smoked and drank in the era. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Sarah 103

[AuntieMame]

17 hours ago, bybrandy said:

No, Suzie didn't get Joel thrown in jail.   Joel got Joel got thrown in jail.   Joel made the decision to save Midge 30% and get her out of the mob by going harder with the mob than Midge ever would have been.  He made that choice on his own for whatever reason but he went looking for that choice.  He decided he needed to act on his own and he acted on his own.  

And he didn't tell Midge that Suzie was in over her head.   And he didn't tell Midge what he'd done previously for Suzie.  He let Midge believe things that weren't true.  And suddenly he's a good guy but he's as much the reason as Suzie is booking Midge in Vegas to pay off debts as Suzie is because Joel has information he doesn't think Midge needs to know.   He let Midge get used by Suzie for DECADES after he stepped in with the mob.   And you can't say he didn't know about Suzie's issues because he does.  He's stepped in there before.

I don't know while all of a sudden Joel is this hero because he made a stupid self sacrifice for stupid reasons but didn't tell Midge the things she needed to know.   I'm pretty sure ASP wants us to think this is a hero move from Joel too but it's not.  It's stupidity guised as selflessness.  If he is all in for Midge then he goes to her and gives her all the information and they work out a plan together instead he does it all by himselfe, Midge is still in the dark about Suzie's problems and Joel now in trouble too.  

And as much as Suzie used Midge, Suzie is going to get that guy fired to get the policy change that gets Midge on the show for her big break.   Suzie has to pivot every time Midge blows up her career and find new pathways for her and Midge blows up her career n the regular.   Talent and management is a parasitic relationshiip on both sides.  Midge gets to be pissed but when she dumps Suzie she's not booking Ceaser's she's booking QVC and Kansas.   

 

I’ve been thinking of Joel as a hero, but I did privately wonder why Joel didn’t talk to Midge about what was really going on because by not doing so he left Midge not only ignorant but vulnerable for years. All the time getting in deeper and deeper financially and emotionally. The only reason I can see is that Midge would quite rightly object to Joel committing crimes and being in so deep. If Joel had been honest they might have been able to affect Susie’s situation too. I fear though that someone would have had to be sacrificed because those mob guys never let go. But still, Midge reading all of this in a letter, in real time, while the father of her children is arrested before her very eyes explains why she was so furious. Midge had to be the one to reach out because she is the absolutely wronged party in all of this. One last thought about why Joel wouldn’t tell Midge the truth is that Midge would have wanted everyone to be free of mafia entanglements and Joel had done the math and knew that wasn’t an option. Midge has never really experienced something tragic and unjust that can’t be changed. Her reaction to insist that everything go her way might well have gotten some or all of them killed. 
 
Lenny, ah Lenny. You make my heart go pitterpat and make me remember the true magic that can exist between men and women. The reminder is like rain in a desert. 
 
I think that in one of the flash forwards we will get a response from Midge in some interview that asks about Lenny. Then we will get a flashback in the flash forward that shows us what really happened. That’s how we will see Lenny one last time. At least I ardently hope so. 

[DrSpaceman73]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:07 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

The whole episode played like a Goodfellas homage (kitchen scenes, anyone?).  Who was the narrator who sounded like Ray Liotta, Ray Liotta being unavailable?  The best I can come up with is uncredited Hank Azaria.  He’s listed in the IMDB credits for this episode. 

I thought the same thing. 

I haven't liked the flash forward in general but I thought this was easily the best episude so far. And they're doing flashbacks from the flash forward. 

I liked the roast. Funnier than the jokes Midge tells. 

Joel's redemption.  After everything Midge put him through he sacrificed himself to the mob for her. 

[DrSpaceman73]

15 hours ago, debraran said:

Does anyone think Lenny will have another cameo or that plane left when he went to San Diego? I'd love another meetup before he dies. Just writing that makes me sad.

They did a fabulous job aging Joel more than anyone. Midge looks basically the same, not as fresh but still cute. Puffier hair and slightly more modest dresses. Watching some shows, 15 years is a different hair style and that's it. I loved the golf scenes and since I just saw JCS play for the first time, that part made me smile. : )

Why did they make Midge's parents so stereotypical cheap and cold lately?  They lived well, I get the cake was expensive but they are making them very one dimensional lately. Only slight complaint since the wedding last episode was the same.

 

But it was a REALLY expensive cake. 

[iMonrey]

Wow, I guess I'm at a table for one but I hated this episode. The whole thing felt like one long Emmy reel for Alex Borstein. I've hated the flash-forward gimmick all season long but at least it was limited to prefacing the episodes until now. Didn't like the entire episode being a series of flash forwards and mostly revolving around Susie. I like Susie as a supporting character but I don't want a whole episode about her where Midge is a supporting character.

I really feel like all the flash forwards are a lazy way for the show to yada yada yada the rest of the story without doing more seasons. So the stuff that's not taking place in flash forwards this season are a waste of time. And that cheapens the season as a whole for me.

I'll pick up my toys and go home now, I guess.

[ichbin]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, chaifan said:

I still think they're aging Joel way too much way too quick. 

I agree in his case but overall I think the aging makeup has been some of the best! I hope it will be recognized at Emmy time.

20 hours ago, kwnyc said:

And Midge says she's "feeling nostalgic" in the video. That gives me a bad feeling...like she's getting her affairs in order.

The same thing crossed my mind.  I really hope it doesn't go in that direction though. I'm hoping it ends with her settling down and successfully taking over a premier late night slot with lots of reconciliations.  I want the happy ending...

[shapeshifter]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, chaifan said:

I still think they're aging Joel way too much way too quick. 

Joel has been in prison for 4-5 years. 

[DrSpaceman73]

2 hours ago, ichbin said:

I agree in his case but overall I think the aging makeup has been some of the best! I hope it will be recognized at Emmy time.

The same thing crossed my mind.  I really hope it doesn't go in that direction though. I'm hoping it ends with her settling down and successfully taking over a premier late night slot with lots of reconciliations.  I want the happy ending...

That would be the beaches ending if they went that direction. 

I'm thinking Joel talking to he though and made her realize thus wasn't all on Suszie and they need to make up. 

[dancingdreamer]

I didn't  enjoy  the roast, but I don't  enjoy them even today.  

Midge  reaching out to Susie made me feel better, does it come full circle I wonder.

[shapeshifter]

13 minutes ago, dancingdreamer said:

I didn't  enjoy  the roast, but I don't  enjoy them even today.  

I don't watch roasts either, but this episode gave me a sense of what it must be like for those participating in a roast of someone they have known, worked with, admired, disdained, envied, and/or esteemed for decades.
From this insider perspective, I appreciated it.
But I still probably won't be interested in real life roasts.