Dune: Part Two (2023)

[AimingforYoko]

Waiting is the mind killer. 

[Trini]

https://www.dunemovie.com/

[from the blurb with the official youtube trailer:]

" The saga continues as award-winning filmmaker Denis Villeneuve embarks on “Dune: Part Two,” the next chapter of Frank Herbert’s celebrated novel Dune, with an expanded all-star international ensemble cast. The film, from Warner Bros. Pictures and Legendary Pictures, is the highly anticipated follow-up to 2021’s six-time Academy Award-winning “Dune.”

The big-screen epic continues the adaptation of Frank Herbert’s acclaimed bestseller Dune with returning and new stars, including Oscar nominee Timothée Chalamet (“Wonka,” “Call Me by Your Name”), Zendaya (“Spider-Man: No Way Home,” “Malcolm & Marie,” “Euphoria”), Rebecca Ferguson (“Mission: Impossible – Dead Reckoning”), Oscar nominee Josh Brolin (“Avengers: End Game,” “Milk”), Oscar nominee Austin Butler (“Elvis,” “Once Upon A Time…In Hollywood”), Oscar nominee Florence Pugh (“Black Widow,” “Little Women”), Dave Bautista (the “Guardians of the Galaxy” films, “Thor: Love and Thunder”), Oscar winner Christopher Walken (“The Deer Hunter,” “Hairspray”), Stephen McKinley Henderson (“Fences,” “Lady Bird”), Léa Seydoux (the “James Bond” franchise and “Crimes of the Future”), with Stellan Skarsgård (the “Mamma Mia!” films, “Avengers: Age of Ultron”), with Oscar nominee Charlotte Rampling (“45 Years,” “Assassin’s Creed”), and Oscar winner Javier Bardem (“No Country for Old Men,” “Being the Ricardos”).

“Dune: Part Two” will explore the mythic journey of Paul Atreides as he unites with Chani and the Fremen while on a warpath of revenge against the conspirators who destroyed his family. Facing a choice between the love of his life and the fate of the known universe, he endeavors to prevent a terrible future only he can foresee.

Villeneuve directed from a screenplay he co-wrote with Jon Spaihts based on Herbert’s novel. The film is produced by Mary Parent, Cale Boyter, Villeneuve, Tanya Lapointe and Patrick McCormick. The executive producers are Josh Grode, Herbert W. Gains, Jon Spaihts, Thomas Tull, Brian Herbert, Byron Merritt, Kim Herbert, with Kevin J. Anderson serving as creative consultant.

Villeneuve is again collaborating with his “Dune” creatives: Oscar-winning director of photography Greig Fraser; Oscar-winning production designer Patrice Vermette; Oscar-winning editor Joe Walker; Oscar-winning visual effects supervisor Paul Lambert; Oscar-nominated costume designer Jacqueline West. Oscar-winning composer Hans Zimmer is again on hand to create the score.

“Dune: Part Two” was filmed on location in Budapest, Abu Dhabi, Jordan and Italy. The film is slated for a November 3, 2023 worldwide release from Warner Bros. Pictures.  "

[BetterButter]

 

[AimingforYoko]

Dune 2 to move to March 15, 2024.

[Spartan Girl]

Fuck the AMPTP

[BetterButter]

 

[tv echo]

Dune: Part Two | Florence Pugh is Princess Irulan | Tickets on Sale Now
Warner Bros. Pictures   Jan 30, 2024

Dune: Part Two | Austin Butler is Feyd-Rautha | Tickets on Sale Now
Warner Bros. Pictures   Jan 31, 2024

[SeanC]

 

[tv echo]

Dune: Part Two | Extended Sneak Preview
Warner Bros. Pictures   Feb 8, 2024

[tv echo]

Dune: Part Two first reactions praise Zendaya, Austin Butler, and space worms
By Wesley Stenzel  Published on February 15, 2024
https://ew.com/dune-part-two-first-reactions-praise-zendaya-worms-8583989

‘Dune 2’ First Reactions From the Premiere: “Jaw-Dropping Masterpiece”
BY JAMES HIBBERD    FEBRUAY 15, 2024
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dune-2-first-reactions-timothee-chalamet-zendaya-1235826610/

‘Dune: Part Two’ First Reactions Praise Denis Villeneuve’s ‘Spectacular’ Sequel: ‘Jaw-Dropping’ and Among the ‘Greatest Sci-Fi Movies Ever’
By Zack Sharf   Feb 15, 2024
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/dune-2-first-reactions-masterpiece-chalamet-zendaya-1235908114/
 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Why you don't mess with Alia.

 

[tv echo]

Timothée Chalamet, Zendaya, Austin Butler & Florence Pugh on 'Dune: Part 2' | Entertainment Weekly
Entertainment Weekly   Feb 20, 2024

[SeanC]

The main reservation some had with respect to the first film was that it was very much the first half of a story rather than a truly independent film in its own right. The release of Dune: Part Two secures the place for Villeneuve's duology as one of the great genre achievements of our time (whenever he gets around to making his planned Dune Messiah adaptation, one imagines it will become one of the great film trilogies).

The first film heavily advertised the presence of Zendaya, whose actual screentime did not nearly live up to that billing. But that is certainly not the case here, and it becomes very apparent that Villeneuve's single most significant alteration to Herbert's Dune is the revised role of Chani. While not unimportant to the narrative, Chani was never one of Herbert's more nuanced characters, but that would not suffice either for a director like Villeneuve or a star like Zendaya. Chani, it turns out, is thematically crucial to the story of Dune: Part Two, in ways that in equal parts builds on the bones of Herbert's story and slightly (or significantly) revises details. The script bestows flesh and blood onto the bones of the narrative that did not really have that previously. It augurs for further and more interesting revisions to Dune Messiah as well.

As with the earlier Dune, Villeneuve's touch with visual effects is noticeably distinct from what we see from many other contemporary cinematic franchises. Both shooting locations and even pure CGI creations have a sense tactility and weight bestowed up him by the director's camera and lighting, and you can tell that like James Cameron, all the time has been taken necessary to make things feel real, despite the fantastical nature of so much of what is onscreen.

Bonus points also for the deployment of Anya Taylor-Joy, another of my favourite actresses, in a role so obviously suited for her that it might as well have been a fancasting assembled based on Tumblr gifs.

[Morrigan2575]

What's the timeline of the war? In the book it took years to get to the final battle but, something I read makes it sound very short.

Edited March 2 by Morrigan2575

[mariah23]

Just finished the movie.  Yeah, it’s going to win some Oscars next year.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

What's the timeline of the war? In the book it took years to get to the final battle but, something I read makes it sound very short.

Alia isn't born, so by implication it's been less than nine months since the initial Harkonnen assault.

[Morrigan2575]

40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Alia isn't born, so by implication it's been less than nine months since the initial Harkonnen assault.

Yeah, that's what I figured. I don't like it, causes problems with the Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, IMO.

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, that's what I figured. I don't like it, causes problems with the Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, IMO.

It might change an aspect of Children of Dune, but Villeneuve isn't planning to make that one anyway.

[tv echo]

Dune 2's budget was reportedly $190M...

‘Dune 2’ Aims for Blockbuster Glory: How a Strike Delay, Imax and ‘Oppenheimer’ Success Can Boost Denis Villeneuve’s Sequel
By Rebecca Rubin   Feb. 20, 2024
https://variety.com/2024/film/features/dune-2-box-office-win-budget-1235907288/ 

Quote

But even though a common refrain in the movie business has been that “Dune 2” can’t come soon enough, the fact is that it may be even better positioned on its new March 1 release date. By escaping November and moving to spring, the “Dune” sequel is poised to be the first major movie of 2024. Analysts believe it’ll benefit from a perfect (desert) storm: pent-up demand for a blockbuster, a healthy dose of star power — Austin Butler and Florence Pugh join the already buzzy cast — and a renewed appreciation for Imax. Cinemas have been collecting dust this year, as evidenced by last December’s “Wonka” remaining in the top five for ten (!) consecutive weekends. As a result, the domestic box office is down 15% year to date, according to Comscore.
*  *  *
Based on presales and early tracking, “Dune: Part Two” will deliver a much-needed box office jolt. The sci-fi epic is expected to collect at least $60 million to $80 million in its domestic debut. It would be the first movie to open above $50 million since last October’s Blumhouse thriller “Five Nights at Freddy’s.” Some are bullish that ticket sales for “Dune 2” could even approach the $90 million mark in its first weekend, not that the film needs to hit those heights to be considered a success.

The first movie, starring Chalamet, Oscar Isaac, Zendaya and Jason Momoa, opened to $41 million while appearing simultaneously on HBO Max. It cost $165 million and ended its box office run with $402 million, one of the only financial wins from the studio’s COVID-era hybrid release strategy. The sequel reportedly cost $190 million, so analysts believe it would be a commercial winner if it replicates the results of the original “Dune.”

A friend of mine saw Dune 2. She thought it was very good but too long and could've used some editing.

Edited March 2 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

It might change an aspect of Children of Dune, but Villeneuve isn't planning to make that one anyway.

I think it would change a big aspect but I also didn't read Children of Dune, I stopped at Dune Messiah.

 

[Black Knight]

23 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah, that's what I figured. I don't like it, causes problems with the Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, IMO.

Per Den of Geek (massive spoilers ahoy): 

Quote

 

Villeneuve streamlined much of this in his film, by compressing the timeline to less than eight months. Jessica is about six weeks pregnant at the end of Dune: Part One and still has not given birth when Dune: Part Two concludes. That means there is no time for baby Leto, even as the movie makes a lot more time to study how Paul becomes a Lawrence of Arabia-like figure, helping lead the Fremen on raids against the Harkonnens.

Villeneuve explained his rationale for some of this when we spoke with him earlier this month.

“Momentum,” Villeneuve said about why he condensed the timeline. “Pressure to feel that the character was running against time, and that the world was eroding under his feet quickly. To give him less time to have a grip on reality, and create more feelings of danger around him. He will not have the time to install himself in the culture; he will not have time to absolutely gain the trust of all the Fremen. I did that just to put Paul more on edge. That was the main idea.”

 

I don't think the book's time jumps would have worked well for the film.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

I never read the book(s) so I'm still learning what stayed true to the books in all of the Dune movies ,including Dune (1984),the miniseries or the recent ones. I have heard it said that the miniseries tried_ to stay true to the books. People who know the books say what you said Black Knight, the time jumps would make it hard to follow exactly like the books especially if you are trying to use the same actors .  I haven't seen this newest movie,but I'll always have a special love for the 1984 release. So David Lynch weird if you know what i mean,lol. And what a performance by little  8 yr. old Alicia Witt as Alia.

[benteen]

Great movie. I never read any of the books either but the movie is epic storytelling, epic filmmaking and CGI done right. It's what Avatar should be and not the utter garbage that James Cameron thinks passes for good filmmaking .

Edited March 3 by benteen

[AimingforYoko]

I like that Villeneuve ended it somewhat ambiguously for Paul, as opposed the unabashed hero cut Lynch gave him back in '84. And that Jessica was active in the deification of Paul as opposed to that it was just supposed to happen.

Paul basically had a good heart, but that much power will fuck anybody up.

[Chyromaniac]

I made this screenshot of my favorite moment from Dune 2:

[Tom Holmberg]

On 3/3/2024 at 9:40 AM, benteen said:

Great movie. I never read any of the books either but the movie is epic storytelling, epic filmmaking and CGI done right. It's what Avatar should be and not the utter garbage that James Cameron thinks passes for good filmmaking .

The first book at least is worth reading.  If you like it try the others.

[Katsullivan]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:18 PM, Black Knight said:

I don't think the book's time jumps would have worked well for the film.

One thing time jump would have helped to do was give us an important motivator for Paul to undergo the Spice Agony. 

Quote

Spoiler

It's the death of Leto II, during Count Fenring's (in the movie, Feyd's) attack on the sietch that pushes Paul into the frame of thinking that with prescience he could have prevented it.

 

But for obvious reasons, DV did not want to cast or CGI a sentient toddler so the timeline was collapsed to the duration of Alia's gestation.

Edited March 5 by Katsullivan

[Affogato]

On 3/3/2024 at 3:19 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I like that Villeneuve ended it somewhat ambiguously for Paul, as opposed the unabashed hero cut Lynch gave him back in '84. And that Jessica was active in the deification of Paul as opposed to that it was just supposed to happen.

Paul basically had a good heart, but that much power will fuck anybody up.

I was not sure Lynch ended with Paul as a hero. More a messiah—at that point he moved into religious mythology, ceased to be a person. But I’m in the minority or it didn’t work. 

[Affogato]

I saw this on a dedicated IMAX screen on the first day. (Boy is my neck sore). The WB logo was way too huge, stuff of nightmares! The coliseum full of bald Harkonnen supporters, very weird  

it begs for the third movie. 

i really liked Stilgar losing himself to fanaticism, and I was impressed with Josh Brolin as Gurney Halleck., Zendaya was great. Chalamet is the weakest of the main cast, imo. 
 

 

[tv echo]

‘Dune: Part Two’: How Sci-Fi Space Worm Epic Reared Head To $81.5M Opening After Strike Release Delay – Sunday Box Office Update
By Anthony D'Alessandro   March 3, 2024
https://deadline.com/2024/03/box-office-dune-part-two-1235842667/ 

Quote

With a near 600M social media draw boosted by Zendaya, Dave Bautista, Timothée Chalamet, Florence Pugh, and Austin Butler, the move for Legendary/Warner Bros‘ Dune: Part Two from the strike-stricken desert of the first weekend of November to early March has yielded an $81.5M domestic (as we first told you last night, it hit $80M) and $178.5M global opening. EntTelligence says that translates to 5.2M admissions for 70% of the weekend’s entire foot traffic.
*  *  *
“You have to see this movie on the largest screen you can. It’s not something you can experience at home,” added the distribution chief, “Cinemas make movie stars and movie stars make cultural moments.”

The gist of their pitch in the campaign: Dune: Part Two is a movie that’s a love story about a boy falling in love with a girl, and boy becoming a man, amid a world that’s pulling them apart. Those are universal themes that required the cast to market that message.
*  *  *
Throughout it all, cast was the biggest driver of social conversation. TikTok alone clocked 300M impressions.

ETA: Box Office Mojo is reporting a domestic opening weekend box office of $82.5M for Dune 2:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl68715265/?ref_=bo_hm_rd 

Edited March 5 by tv echo

[tv echo]

In case anyone was wondering, there are graphic novels of each of the first three Dune books by Frank Herbert, as well as a graphic novel of the movie version of Dune (all on sale at Amazon.com). Not the same as reading the novels, of course.

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

In case anyone was wondering, there are graphic novels of each of the first three Dune books by Frank Herbert, as well as a graphic novel of the movie version of Dune (all on sale at Amazon.com). Not the same as reading the novels, of course.

Hoopla has a lot of comics, extended universe stuff, children of dune miniseries. If you get it, way to sample for free. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

i really liked Stilgar losing himself to fanaticism, and I was impressed with Josh Brolin as Gurney Halleck., Zendaya was great. Chalamet is the weakest of the main cast, imo.

In that sense, he's a really good choice to play Paul. Just got back from seeing it, and while Paul is the central figure, he's also kind of passive. It's not just his destiny we're seeing unfold, it's Jessica's and Stilgar's and even Gurney's, since his reveal of the nuclear arsenal Paul's father hid away is what helped turn the tide. Halfway through the movie, I had the random thought that Chani usually seemed suspicious of Paul or aggravated by something he was doing, and I've figured out that it's because he's going along with the pushing he keeps getting. She loves him and may well be in love with him, but she also sees that the route he's taking is going to lead to bad places, as backed up by Paul's visions.

Of course, being passive means he'll be the perfect husband for Irulan, who seems to have her own plans beyond just keeping her father alive. I do wonder, if there is a third movie as there should be, if she and Jessica (and her psychic fetus) will be at odds, because Paul's mother is very clear about the role she'll play in her son's life, and the role he'll continue to play. Whether he really wants to or not.

"I came to wish you the best of luck."

"I'd wish you the same, but it seems you've won your battle."

Indeed, Chani, indeed.

[Frost]

Casting Christopher Walken as the Emperor was a mistake.  I swear, he sounded like a bad impersonator!  He has a distinctive cadence, but he needs to be able to tone it down when he's acting.

I was impressed with Chalamet's transition from the teenage Paul in Dune I to someone who actually felt like a leader by the end of Dune II.  

I read the first two Dune books about 45 years ago (argh!  is that even possible???) so I don't remember the details.    I've been able to enjoy the films without worrying about differences from the book.

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

In that sense, he's a really good choice to play Paul. Just got back from seeing it, and while Paul is the central figure, he's also kind of passive. It's not just his destiny we're seeing unfold, it's Jessica's and Stilgar's and even Gurney's, since his reveal of the nuclear arsenal Paul's father hid away is what helped turn the tide. Halfway through the movie, I had the random thought that Chani usually seemed suspicious of Paul or aggravated by something he was doing, and I've figured out that it's because he's going along with the pushing he keeps getting. She loves him and may well be in love with him, but she also sees that the route he's taking is going to lead to bad places, as backed up by Paul's visions.

Of course, being passive means he'll be the perfect husband for Irulan, who seems to have her own plans beyond just keeping her father alive. I do wonder, if there is a third movie as there should be, if she and Jessica (and her psychic fetus) will be at odds, because Paul's mother is very clear about the role she'll play in her son's life, and the role he'll continue to play. Whether he really wants to or not.

"I came to wish you the best of luck."

"I'd wish you the same, but it seems you've won your battle."

Indeed, Chani, indeed.

Yes, one of the themes is precognition locks you into determinism. Paul doesn’t have much agency. 

Spoiler

The atreides line spends the rest of the original series of books searching for free will. I think. It has been a while. 

https://apple.news/A8NLefztsSV2BG3hW7Un6QA

 

“What is ‘Dune’ about? Not even Frank Herbert could say for sure.”

 

 

What is ‘Dune’ about? Not even Frank Herbert could say for sure.

Edited March 6 by Affogato

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Frost said:

Casting Christopher Walken as the Emperor was a mistake.  I swear, he sounded like a bad impersonator!  He has a distinctive cadence, but he needs to be able to tone it down when he's acting.

I was impressed with Chalamet's transition from the teenage Paul in Dune I to someone who actually felt like a leader by the end of Dune II.  

I read the first two Dune books about 45 years ago (argh!  is that even possible???) so I don't remember the details.    I've been able to enjoy the films without worrying about differences from the book.

They leaned heavily into his skinny, small physique at the beginning. He also scampered up to his teachers and hugged a lot. I thind direction played a part.
 

 Kyle McLaughlin and Ewan McGregor were obviously physical adults when they filmed their versions of Dune. 

[BlackberryJam]

Discussion of book differences.

Spoiler

I get why the Spacing Guild and Guild Navigators were cut because it’s so tough to visualize, but damn, I love me some freaky mutant space folders.

I love Charlotte Rampling and she had me even behind that veil.

Rebecca Ferguson was excellent. Love her! Zendaya‘s best scenes were with Josh Brolin. 
 

Not an Austin Butler fan after Elvis, but he was a revelation in this. He completely steered into the freaky and owned. I can see a supporting actor nomination for him. Those scenes on on Giedi Prime were amazing.

This film was an achievement.
 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Been listening to the Dune II soundtrack, it's really good,but I still find the 1984 Dune soundtrack by Toto and Brian Eno to be way better IMO. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Been listening to the Dune II soundtrack, it's really good,but I still find the 1984 Dune soundtrack by Toto and Brian Eno to be way better IMO. 

Well Brian Eno rules…

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Timeless masterpiece.

[tv echo]

Warning: contains Dune 2 movie spoilers and Dune Messiah book spoilers...

How Denis Villeneuve’s Dune: Part Two Rejects the White Savior Myth
BY HOAI-TRAN BUI   MARCH 1, 2024
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-2-denis-villeneuve-interview-white-savior 

Edited March 16 by tv echo

[miliosr]

I saw Dune: Part Two yesterday. (Some mild spoilers ahead)

On the plus side of the ledger, my attention never flagged for one moment despite the movie's great length (2hrs 45mins). There were no obviously bad or even mediocre performances (although Christopher Walken came close with the latter). The knife fight between Paul and Feyd was a thing of beauty. Finally, the movie was even more of a visual marvel than Part One was.

And yet . . . I found Dune: Part Two to be dramatically inert at times. Timothee Chalamet never really drew me into his dilemma until Paul fled to Arrakis's southern hemisphere. That was the point where Chalamet's performance ratcheted up several notches, and Paul's dilemma and its resolution became interesting. I understand why Denis Villeneuve would have directed Chalamet to segment his performance into two segments reflecting Paul's pre-Water of Life thinking and his post-Water of Life thinking. The problem for me is that the former (and larger) segment wasn't all that compelling.

Also, I found Jessica's motivations to be inscrutable. I'm inclined to believe that her own experience with the Water of Life drove her actions in regard to Paul's destiny. But this was not totally clear based on what was shown onscreen. Perhaps this is something the original source book was able to explain more directly.

From what I understand, the movie ending represents something of a change of tone (if not in plot) from the book's ending. I don't know if Villeneuve made things better or worse by giving Paul more agency regarding the jihad that erupts at the end of the movie. I suppose we won't know until Part Three is made.

In sum, I would maybe give Dune: Part Two an A-/B+. It is undeniably worth seeing as a visual experience. I just wish the actual storyline (and some of the performances) had drawn me in more than they did.

Edited March 23 by miliosr

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, miliosr said:

Also, I found Jessica's motivations to be inscrutable. I'm inclined to believe that her own experience with the Water of Life drove her actions in regard to Paul's destiny. But this was not totally clear based on what was shown onscreen. Perhaps this is something the original source book was able to explain more directly.

It's been several years since I read the books, but my impression was that it was initially just Jessica trying to convince the Fremen that Paul was their Messiah, and then after the Water of Life it was Jessica and the yet to be born Alia, who speaks to her mother from the womb. There were shades of Rose The Hat in Jessica's soliloquy about converting the non-believers, that they should start with the weaker ones, who feared them because they were outsiders. I believe that Jessica went a bit crazy afterwards, because by the end of the film she's as much of a fanatic as Stilgar, she's just quieter about it. The water was enough to make Alia sentient, so imbibing must have affected her mother as well.

I said this upthread, but though this is Paul's story he may or may not have agency within it. It starts out as him seeking safety from those who harmed him, then justice (or revenge, take your pick) for his murdered father and friends, and somewhere in the middle he finds love with Chani, though she continues to identify him as an outsider even before he slips away from her. I believe that if he had not discovered the truth about his heritage - "We're Harkonnens. So that's how we'll survive, by being Harkonnens." - he might never have spoken the words to kick off a war, that the combination of the prophecy and finding out that the rotten old fart who killed his father was related to him drove him over the edge. He knows terrible things are probably coming, that even if all of his visions don't come to pass the war will devastate part of the galaxy, but as he tells Gurney, it's not because he loses control, it's because he gains it.

[Sandman]

Does making Feyd-Rautha so explicitly psychotic and bloodthirsty create a bit of a plot hole? I don’t remember that in the novel. Nothing against Butler’s performance, which was equal parts mesmerizing and skin-crawling creepy. But doesn’t the Harkonnen House brand of evil & crazy represent an instability the BG would want to screen out, rather than breed in? Mohiam  is sure they can control him, but his genetic material must be inherently flawed, if not entirely useless. Unless the literal translation of “Kwisatz Haderach” is “Kookoo for Cocoa Puffs.”

Or perhaps Villeneuve is suggesting that the BG is overconfident in its own planning. 

Edited March 30 by Sandman

[Grimnar]

8 hours ago, Sandman said:

Does making Feyd-Rautha so explicitly psychotic and bloodthirsty create a bit of a plot hole? I don’t remember that in the novel. Nothing against Butler’s performance, which was equal parts mesmerizing and skin-crawling creepy. But doesn’t the Harkonnen House brand of evil & crazy represent an instability the BG would want to screen out, rather than breed in? Mohaim is sure they can control him, but his genetic material must be inherently flawed, if not entirely useless. Unless the literal translation of “Kwisatz Haderach” is “Kookoo for Cocoa Puffs.”

Or perhaps Villeneuve is suggesting that the BG is overconfident in its own planning. 

Well, in novel, if everything would be all according to plan regarding Kwisatz Haderach, then his father would be Feyd and great grandfather would be Vladimir Harkonnen. So it would be challenge for BG to supress Harkonenn's psychotic side.

In novel Feyd is not openly bloodthirsty or psychotic as in the movie. Actually in novel baron's plan is to replace Rabban as governor of Arrakis with Feyd where Feyd would be seen by population as saviour from Rabban(originally Piter was supposed to be governor of Arrakis) - play how to gather loyalty of Arrakis.

[Sandman]

On 3/5/2024 at 11:13 PM, Frost said:

Casting Christopher Walken as the Emperor was a mistake.  I swear, he sounded like a bad impersonator! 

For what it’s worth, I found Walken’s particular vocal patterns less evident (less exaggerated?) than sometimes. I do find it interesting that both Villeneuve and Lynch cast actors with highly distinctive voices as the Emperor. No one else sounded like Jose Ferrer!

2 hours ago, Grimnar said:

Well, in novel, if everything would be all according to plan regarding Kwisatz Haderach, then his father would be Feyd and great grandfather would be Vladimir Harkonnen.

So it was never the best plan😁
 

Edited to add: Or maybe my whole premise is too simplistic. Maybe Feyd-Rautha’s nature isn’t directly heritable?

Edited March 30 by Sandman

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

So it was never the best plan😁

Clearly not. In the book, the BG supply Irulan with contraceptives, which she puts in Chani's food without her knowing about it to prevent her from giving birth to Paul's heir. Given the culmination of that thread, I don't believe Villeneuve will do it if there's a third movie, but it's left hanging as to what will happen if Feyd's kid lives to adulthood. With him dead and unavailable to be "controlled", the BG are likely passing on his genetic tendency towards insanity and risking the life of the woman carrying the baby. Feyd killed his mother, as Mohaim tells Irulan, so she.....thinks it's a good idea to have one of her acolytes get pregnant by him?

[Sandman]

Or it’s hubris on the part of the Bene Gesserit (… which, I know: “Gee, ya think?) breeding for a particular quality or genetic combination, and thinking they can control or destroy whatever else may result.

I confess I’m surprised that Irulan seems to think the BG was interested in helping her father maintain his hold on the throne. When Gaius Helen Mohiam tells Irulan that her father will lose the throne in any event, she seems taken aback by this. Book!Irulan always seemed more loyal to the BG anyway, so the version of her in this movie comes across as a bit naive, not to be more aware of the Sisterhood’s true loyalties. 

Spoiler

I like to imagine the BG’s reaction when it’s revealed, some 5 or 6 millennia later, that the ultimate Quzzical Hatrack isn’t a Harkonnen or an Atreides at all, but Duncan Idaho ver. 19.0 or something:

“… I’m sorry, what?”

(Which feels like a particularly cheap retcon by Brian Herbert to me, but still: Missionaria Suckstobeyouva!)

 

Edited March 30 by Sandman

[Danny Franks]

I just got back from watching this, and I think I have mostly the same opinion of it as I did the first movie - visually stunning and incredible sound design were the standouts, but the pacing and storytelling weren't great.

The scale of the desert was incredible, and that's something that Villeneuve does better than anyone else working in Hollywood at the moment. The expanses are vast, and Villeneuve loves putting visual markers into those scenes to show the scale - a tiny figure on a ridge, a sandworm that fills the screen, a giant silver Heart of Gold looking spaceship with battalions of tiny soldiers beneath it.

The greyscale look of the Harkonnen world was so striking, and it's little wonder they're all deranged, growing up there.

The story is still the weakest part of the movie. There's too much 'because mysticism said so' driving the actions of the main characters - Jessica drinks wormblood and is apparently guided by the knowledge of previous Reverend Mothers. She tries to manipulate Paul into doing what she believes he must (with the help of her magical fetus) but it's only when he also drinks wormblood that he realises what he has to do.

The Bene Gesserit were just scheming for scheming's sake, by the end of it. The notion that Feyd Rauda was "controllable" was rather absurd, given he casually murdered people for no reason whatsoever, even when he was in a good mood.

The first thing he'd have done if he became emperor was devise a plan to wipe out the Bene Gesserit, as he'd see them as the main threat, and the people who could remove him from the throne they put him on.

Feyd Rauda was a bit of a non-event as well. Interestingly played by Austin Butler, but his role in the story was very clear - be scary and then be killed by Paul.

I like the overall narrative -Don't trust messiahs (and boy, Paul would have been better off if his mum was more like Brian of Nazareth's mum) because they will lose sight of your interests as they pursue their own. Paul becomes a narcissistic saviour, caught up in his own legend and apparently willing to sacrifice thousands, millions, of his followers to secure his victory.

I think Zendaya was the standout actor in this, and her character was the standout too. If there is a third movie, I'd much rather it focus more on her and less on Paul. And I'd like it if they actually diverged heavily from the books, regarding how Chani apparently accepts Paul's choices and agrees to be his lover again.

Certainly, the final shot of the movie didn't suggest a woman likely to accept anything Paul says or does again. And I doubt audiences would readily accept Paul marrying Irulan (Florence Pugh was wasted in this, by the way. All she did was look pensive and wear crazy hats) but acting like nothing needs to change with Chani.

A couple of bugbears - are we to believe that the Fremen can steer sandworms, with those tiny little hooks? These things are so big that the one Paul rode was passing him for about two minutes before he jumped on its back. I guess that must be how it works, unless they stand there all day, just waiting for the worm they summon to be going in the right direction. And how do they get off, when they reach their destination?

And when, exactly, did Leto have time to construct a secret bunker on Arrakis and hide all of House Atreides' atomic missiles in it? Also, why would he? That would leave his homeworld unprotected.

Edited April 4 by Danny Franks

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The Bene Gesserit were just scheming for scheming's sake, by the end of it. The notion that Feyd Rauda was "controllable" was rather absurd, given he casually murdered people for no reason whatsoever, even when he was in a good mood.

The first thing he'd have done if he became emperor was devise a plan to wipe out the Bene Gesserit, as he'd see them as the main threat, and the people who could remove him from the throne they put him on.

Why would he know that the Bene Gesserit wanted him on the throne? It's Baron Harkonnen who he knows is scheming to achieve that.

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And I'd like it if they actually diverged heavily from the books, regarding how Chani apparently accepts Paul's choices and agrees to be his lover again.

Certainly, the final shot of the movie didn't suggest a woman likely to accept anything Paul says or does again. And I doubt audiences would readily accept Paul marrying Irulan (Florence Pugh was wasted in this, by the way. All she did was look pensive and wear crazy hats) but acting like nothing needs to change with Chani.

Paul already indicated in the film that Chani will come to understand the situation.

4 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And when, exactly, did Leto have time to construct a secret bunker on Arrakis and hide all of House Atreides' atomic missiles in it? Also, why would he? That would leave his homeworld unprotected.

The Atreides gave up Caladan for Arrakis. The bunker is on Arrakis because the nuclear weapons are of no use to House Atreides anywhere else.