Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[fairffaxx]

A homicide victim was "funeralized" today, according to a local TV reporter.  By the way, we're in the San Francisco Bay Area, where people are generally well-educated (whatever you may think of our politics).  🙀

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, fairffaxx said:

A homicide victim was "funeralized" today, according to a local TV reporter.  By the way, we're in the San Francisco Bay Area, where people are generally well-educated (whatever you may think of our politics).  🙀

Hrmmmm.
TV reporter: “funeralized”
Did the reporter look very attractive on camera?

 

Meanwhile on Twitter/X:
This was posted by an ESPN (sports) reporter. I guess “differently” wouldn’t sound jock enough? 

 

Edited August 16 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

On Reddit people are explaining that in Texas “conversate” is a verb, as in: ”I was conversating about that.”

[fairffaxx]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Hrmmmm.
TV reporter: “funeralized”
Did the reporter look very attractive on camera?

He didn't appear on camera & I didn't catch his name.  I still haven't recovered sufficiently to attempt e-mailing the channel in protest.

[emma675]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

On Reddit people are explaining that in Texas “conversate” is a verb, as in: ”I was conversating about that.”

I'm in Texas and I have never said nor heard someone say that. But I also don't say "I'm fixing to" instead of "I'm about to" like many of my fellow Texans. 

It's a huge state, we have a ton of different accents and dialects.

[shapeshifter]

I'm not sure what to think of this grammar gaffe heard at the beginning of the recent edition of my go-to podcast: 

• “We need to listen to others who know more than us, and to learn from those who see more clearly than we do.”

("You're Not the Boss of Me!" 0:44, hiddenbrain.org/podcast/youre-not-the-boss-of-me).

Following "than" with the object form seems almost ubiquitous these days, which makes me think it is on the verge of becoming acceptable. 

And then the voice of Shankar Vedantam (the narrator of the Hidden Brain podcast) is a big reason for me to listen. He's so soothing, both in voice and word choice, and even his laugh. Note that in the second clause of the sentence he correctly uses the subject form — almost like he corrected himself without making a distracting fuss about it.

Edited August 16 by shapeshifter

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm not sure what to think of this grammar gaffe heard at the beginning of the recent edition of my go-to podcast: 

• “We need to listen to others who know more than us, and to learn from those who see more clearly than we do.”

("You're Not the Boss of Me!" 0:44, hiddenbrain.org/podcast/youre-not-the-boss-of-me).

Following "than" with the object form seems almost ubiquitous these days, which makes me think it is on the verge of becoming acceptable. 

And then the voice of Shankar Vedantam (the narrator of the Hidden Brain podcast) is a big reason for me to listen. He's so soothing, both in voice and word choice, and even his laugh. Note that in the second clause of the sentence he correctly uses the subject form — almost like he corrected himself without making a distracting fuss about it.

That sounds perfectly fine to me, but I guess I could see an argument that he means “We need to listen to others who know more than we [do]” but that seems like a stretch. Maybe you know more than me!

ironically that’s a podcast I dropped off from, mostly because other things crowded it out, but a little bit because I got tired of hearing about “biaseeze” and “processeeze”. Different strokes!

[chitowngirl]

When I moved to this area many moons ago, I noticed people will say something “needs done” instead of “needs to be done”. Drives me nuts!

[Browncoat]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

When I moved to this area many moons ago, I noticed people will say something “needs done” instead of “needs to be done”. Drives me nuts!

I hear "needs doing" a lot.

[SoMuchTV]

The dishes need washing. The dishes need washed. The dishes need to be washed. All all equally annoying. What am I, your maid?

[chitowngirl]

8 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

The dishes need washing. The dishes need washed. The dishes need to be washed. All all equally annoying. What am I, your maid?

So here, that phrase would be “the dishes needs done”. 😄

[SoMuchTV]

7 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

So here, that phrase would be “the dishes needs done”. 😄

The dishes need done. The dishes need doing. The dishes need to be done. Why am I the only one who sees the ##%^* dishes?

[Browncoat]

1 minute ago, SoMuchTV said:

The dishes need done. The dishes need doing. The dishes need to be done. Why am I the only one who sees the ##%^* dishes?

Same, same, @SoMuchTV.  I am procrastinating those dishes as I type.

[meep.meep]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

On Reddit people are explaining that in Texas “conversate” is a verb, as in: ”I was conversating about that.”

Didn't a former US President who is from Texas also use that "word" ?

[SweetieDarling]

4 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

When I moved to this area many moons ago, I noticed people will say something “needs done” instead of “needs to be done”. Drives me nuts!

My sister in-law from Pittsburgh and her mother talk like that. It drives me insane too! "The baby needs changed" I find myself yelling "TO BE! TO BE!" inside my head

[Quof]

On Judge Judy, conversating is how you get babies. 

[Browncoat]

34 minutes ago, Quof said:

On Judge Judy, conversating is how you get babies. 

Is that what the cool kids are calling it these days?  😉

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Didn't a former US President who is from Texas also use that "word" ?

You mean the one who was actually from Connecticut?

[meep.meep]

I meant the one who still lives in Texas.

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

You mean the one who was actually from Connecticut?

7 hours ago, meep.meep said:

I meant the one who still lives in Texas.

Same, right?

 

[Milburn Stone]

@meep.meep, in case there was any ambiguity, I meant my factual Connecticut remark humorously. I.e., I wasn't "correcting" you, rather I was noting the incongruity of a Connecticut-born, prep school and Yale-educated fellow talking Texas.

I do see on Wikipedia that some years of his childhood were spent in Texas.

No offense meant.

[StatisticalOutlier]

Here's a new one to me:  "another think coming."  It never occurred to me it was or even could be anything other than "another thing coming." 

Then last night I was reading a book where a sentence was something like, "If he thought I was going to help him, he had another think coming."  I'm guessing I'd never seen it written before??  That's kind of hard to believe, but that sentence in particular, with the "thought" and "think" close together, caught my attention.

So I glanced at some online sources and it's the usual:  "think" is correct but so many people get it wrong it's becoming acceptable.  Well, not to me, now that I know better. 

I wonder if I never see it written because it's not a hill people want to die on, so they change the sentence.  When spoken, even if I'm thinking "think" the "k" will glide into the hard C in coming and nobody will know I'm being a pedant.  Unlike "forte," which I avoid at all costs when speaking.

[shapeshifter]

On 8/16/2024 at 3:46 AM, shapeshifter said:

On Reddit people are explaining that in Texas “conversate” is a verb, as in: ”I was conversating about that.”

And yesterday I spent so much time on the phone with a helpful support person from my health insurance company that I was really shocked at the end of the conversation when she repeatedly assured me that she was going to "documentate" the issue. 
She did not have a Texas accent.

[SoMuchTV]

6 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Here's a new one to me:  "another think coming."  It never occurred to me it was or even could be anything other than "another thing coming." 

That’s one that I’ve heard both ways, and I don’t have a strong opinion about. Unlike set foot in vs step foot in, where I come down firmly in the “set foot” camp. 

Are you familiar with the Eggcorn database/website?  I don’t have the exact link anymore, but that’s been my go-to site when I’m wondering, wait, have I had it wrong all along or have I discovered someone who is amusingly mistaken?

[meep.meep]

8 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Here's a new one to me:  "another think coming."  It never occurred to me it was or even could be anything other than "another thing coming." 

Then last night I was reading a book where a sentence was something like, "If he thought I was going to help him, he had another think coming."  

 

It makes perfect sense in the sentence you quote.  Thought and think

You're supposed to remember "another thing coming" when you read it.  It's part of writing style not grammar.

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Are you familiar with the Eggcorn database/website?

I haven't looked at it in years, but I remember coming across it and thinking it was brilliant.  Whenever I hear someone get a word wrong, I try to reverse engineer it to see if it has eggcorn roots.

One of my favorites was "on the lamb."  I love picturing what the speaker is picturing in his mind.

[EtheltoTillie]

I randomly recall words that I pronounced wrong in my head when reading as a youngster.  Latest one:  avengers.  I thought it was AVengers.  Accent on first syllable. 

[chitowngirl]

On 8/23/2024 at 10:33 AM, StatisticalOutlier said:

Here's a new one to me:  "another think coming."  It never occurred to me it was or even could be anything other than "another thing coming." 

The song by Judas Priest is “You’ve Got Another Thing Coming”…. 🤷‍♀️

[SweetieDarling]

I also posted this in the Commercials That Irritate You thread:

 

Yoplait commercial with America Ferrera:

1) America is NOT a country

2) When she says she doesn't talk about herself in the third person then asks herself "Do I"? - "I" is NOT third person.  

 

 

Whoever wrote this commercial needs to be fired

[SweetieDarling]

Headline from local news website:

VOTE: Do the Biden-Harris administration's border policies put your family's at risk?

my family's what?

[Browncoat]

A local handyman has advertised that he can "winter rise" your house.

[Ancaster]

On 8/23/2024 at 7:33 AM, StatisticalOutlier said:

 

So I glanced at some online sources and it's the usual:  "think" is correct but so many people get it wrong it's becoming acceptable.  Well, not to me, now that I know better. 

 

"Glanced" as in "Spent way too much time googling"?  😄

[Milburn Stone]

From late childhood, I've realized that another think coming is the only way that makes sense. You've got another think coming = think again, mister. Clear as day. You've got another thing coming = wait...what thing? a bus? a punch in the nose? a refund from the IRS?

[Ancaster]

"just don’t gift them anymore" as in 

"When people don’t have the willingness to say thank you (by note, email or text) then just don’t gift them anymore."

Really?

[annzeepark914]

11 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

From late childhood, I've realized that another think coming is the only way that makes sense. You've got another think coming = think again, mister. Clear as day. You've got another thing coming = wait...what thing? a bus? a punch in the nose? a refund from the IRS?

I didn't realize the word was "think" until I was a young adult. Never saw it printed until then. Reminds me of the misheard song lyrics (e.g., "Livin' On A Prayer" by Bon Jovi). Misheard: It doesn't make a difference if we're naked or not. Correct: It doesn't make a difference if we make it or not 😁. Got this from 50 Famously Misheard and Misunderstood Song Lyrics Explained.

Edited August 31 by annzeepark914

[Bastet]

42 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Reminds me of the misheard song lyrics (e.g., "Livin' On A Prayer" by Bon Jovi). Misheard: It doesn't make a difference if we're naked or not. Correct: It doesn't make a difference if we make it or not 😁. Got this from 50 Famously Misheard and Misunderstood Song Lyrics Explained.

There's a fun thread in the Music section about mondegreens (a term I had not heard until the thread was created; I had no idea there was a word for it).  That one would be a good addition.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

You've got another think coming = think again, mister. Clear as day. You've got another thing coming = wait...what thing? a bus? a punch in the nose? a refund from the IRS?

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

I didn't realize the word was "think" until I was a young adult.

I never heard it as "think" until I read it here at almost age 71. 

When Mom said it, it sure sounded like a threat, but nothing ever happened.
I wish I could ask her if she was saying "thing" or "think."

 

[annzeepark914]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I never heard it as "think" until I read it here at almost age 71. 

When Mom said it, it sure sounded like a threat, but nothing ever happened.
I wish I could ask her if she was saying "thing" or "think."

 

We heard this a lot from our moms back in the day 😉

[Browncoat]

8 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Reminds me of the misheard song lyrics (e.g., "Livin' On A Prayer" by Bon Jovi). Misheard: It doesn't make a difference if we're naked or not. Correct: It doesn't make a difference if we make it or not

Heh.  I read a new one recently.  A character in some crappy book I read was singing along to "Drift Away" and instead of "Give me the beat, boys", he sang, "Give me the Beach Boys and free my soul".  

Probably the best part of that whole book.

[Milburn Stone]

9 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

I didn't realize the word was "think" until I was a young adult. Never saw it printed until then.

Oh yes, very much the same. When I said I knew it from late childhood, that was because then was when I saw it in print in a comic book at the barbershop. I remember the exact comic book. It was a Scrooge McDuck. I guess he said it to Huey, Dewey, and Louie. :) 

And now I remember why I know the exact comic book. It was because of the think thing. Discovering that this was the actual phrase and not the one I thought--and then figuring out why this was correct--was an epiphany the likes of which you don't forget.

[shapeshifter]

A current example of perhaps my most triggering questionable grammar instance, especially when hearing it on NPR or PBS or national news broadcasts:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than her, will succeed their father as king.”
  https://apnews.com/article/norway-princess-martha-louise-royal-wedding-shaman-durek-verret-569029b62d419529ed5bb881a47a5216

Since neither we armchair grammarians nor the Associated Press editors would ever tolerate:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than her [is], will succeed their father as king.”

but would insist upon:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than [she is], will succeed their father as king.”

I am surprised and annoyed that Associated Press editors did not at least reword the sentence.

Isn't there some rule or guide that dictates adding "is" or "are" to determine whether or not the objective form is acceptable? 

Or am I wrong, and so long as the sentence works without adding a form of the verb to be, it is grammatically correct to use the objective form of the pronoun?

Note: My hope is that we can focus on just the grammatical issue in the article so my post doesn't need to be deleted.

Edited August 31 by shapeshifter

[Anduin]

33 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

A current example of perhaps my most triggering questionable grammar instance, especially when hearing it on NPR or PBS or national news broadcasts:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than her, will succeed their father as king.”
  https://apnews.com/article/norway-princess-martha-louise-royal-wedding-shaman-durek-verret-569029b62d419529ed5bb881a47a5216

 

Makes perfect sense as it is. Doesn't need to go on, doesn't need to elaborate, doesn't need to explain any further. Short and to the point, unlike this response, which will drag on as long as I feel like typing, and perhaps even longer, and in worse shape as it gos along,

[SoMuchTV]

44 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

A current example of perhaps my most triggering questionable grammar instance, especially when hearing it on NPR or PBS or national news broadcasts:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than her, will succeed their father as king.”
  https://apnews.com/article/norway-princess-martha-louise-royal-wedding-shaman-durek-verret-569029b62d419529ed5bb881a47a5216

Since neither we armchair grammarians nor the Associated Press editors would ever tolerate:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than her [is], will succeed their father as king.”

but would insist upon:

• “…her brother, who is two years younger than [she is], will succeed their father as king.”

I am surprised and annoyed that Associated Press editors did not at least reword the sentence.

Isn't there some rule or guide that dictates adding "is" or "are" to determine whether or not the objective form is acceptable? 

Or am I wrong, and so long as the sentence works without adding a form of the verb to be, it is grammatically correct to use the objective form of the pronoun?

Note: My hope is that we can focus on just the grammatical issue in the article so my post doesn't need to be deleted.

 

8 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Makes perfect sense as it is. Doesn't need to go on, doesn't need to elaborate, doesn't need to explain any further. Short and to the point, unlike this response, which will drag on as long as I feel like typing, and perhaps even longer, and in worse shape as it gos along,

I'm no grammar expert so at some point I just have to rely on what sounds right.  I wouldn't say "I'm two years younger than he." or "He's two years older than I." but I can also see the argument that the "he is" or "I am" is implied.

[ABay]

The sentence could have stopped at "younger", made perfect sense, and been grammatically correct.

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Heh.  I read a new one recently.  A character in some crappy book I read was singing along to "Drift Away" and instead of "Give me the beat, boys", he sang, "Give me the Beach Boys and free my soul".  

Probably the best part of that whole book.

There's a profile of Tony Danza in the NYT this week.  One of the commenters made the joke about the Elton John lyrics that were often misquoted:  "Hold me closer, Tony Danza." 

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Oh yes, very much the same. When I said I knew it from late childhood, that was because then was when I saw it in print in a comic book at the barbershop. I remember the exact comic book. It was a Scrooge McDuck. I guess he said it to Huey, Dewey, and Louie. :) 

And now I remember why I know the exact comic book. It was because of the think thing. Discovering that this was the actual phrase and not the one I thought--and then figuring out why this was correct--was an epiphany the likes of which you don't forget.

No wonder you became an advertising copywriter!

[EtheltoTillie]

I'm a believer in always saying "two years younger than he is," adding the "is," so it doesn't sound pedantic. 

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I'm a believer in always saying "two years younger than he is," adding the "is," so it doesn't sound pedantic. 

Yes, that’s been my solution, but now this is a revelation for me:

24 minutes ago, ABay said:

The sentence could have stopped at "younger", made perfect sense, and been grammatically correct.

—especially since Associated Press prefers brevity.

So just:

• …her brother, who is two years younger, will succeed their father as king.
  https://apnews.com/article/norway-princess-martha-louise-royal-wedding-shaman-durek-verret-569029b62d419529ed5bb881a47a5216

Thank you, @ABay 👏

Of course, it won’t cure my irritation when hearing or reading “than her” or “than me” etc.

I guess I was hoping it was now ruled to be grammatically acceptable in some way that escapes me.

 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

So just:

• …her brother, who is two years younger, will succeed their father as king.
  https://apnews.com/article/norway-princess-martha-louise-royal-wedding-shaman-durek-verret-569029b62d419529ed5bb881a47a5216

Thank you, @ABay 👏

 

 

Yes, that one definitely works, and I guess I do use that all the time too without really thinking about it. 

[supposebly]

John is two years younger than me

John is two years younger than I 

John is two years younger than I am.

is two years younger

are all acceptable in most North American Englishes.

The example works without 'than her' since we know from the context who we are comparing him with.

What about when you have a full verb? What do you prefer?

John works two hours more than I/me/I do.

What about when you have no pronoun?

John works two hours more than Jane/Jane does.

Consider this:

I saw John kissing her more than I/me.

Here, you might disambiguate with the different pronoun forms.

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, supposebly said:

…are all acceptable in most North American Englishes.…
What about when you have a full verb? What do you prefer?

John works two hours more than I/me/I do.

Since you're asking (thank you)…

• John works two hours more than me do.

…is not something I can recall hearing, unless maybe in some Pidgin English.
Is that what you were referencing?

If so, are there acknowledged rules of grammar for Pidgin English, as with, say, Ebonics?

I ask because if so, maybe I could get over my twitching when I encounter phrasing like “her brother, who is two years younger than her.”