Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[Salacious Kitty]

The use of whenever in place of when (same meaning implied) is endemic in the South. I hear it all the time, and it drives me bonkers. 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Salacious Kitty said:

The use of whenever in place of when (same meaning implied) is endemic in the South. I hear it all the time, and it drives me bonkers. 

When my family moved from the East Coast to the Chicago area in the 1960s, "...go with?" drove us bonkers. 
As in: "We're going to McDonald's. Are you coming with?"
I was barely 10 years old then, but it still bothers me, although not as much as the use of "me" as a subject, especially when it's used by news reporters. 

But all of the above — whenever, [go] with, me [and her are going...] — have become so commonly used now that I think we have to acknowledge that in another decade or two, they will be considered grammatically acceptable.🤷🏻‍♀️

[SoMuchTV]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I was barely 10 years old then, but it still bothers me, although not as much as the use of "me" as a subject, especially when it's used by news reporters. 

I’m actually hearing way too much of the opposite, from countless reporters, authors, podcasters - people who should understand the basics of grammar: “they came to visit my wife and I”, “such and such happened to he and I“, and the like. 

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’m actually hearing way too much of the opposite, from countless reporters, authors, podcasters - people who should understand the basics of grammar: “they came to visit my wife and I”, “such and such happened to he and I“, and the like. 

Yes. That too.

[Bastet]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:40 PM, Ancaster said:

Can you be a bit more specific about where whenever is used?  (For some reason, even though I love points of grammatical minutiae, I feel little compulsion to listen to 12 minutes of news about a roller coaster in Oklahoma, only to realize I missed the relevant bit.) 

It's at the beginning:  "Not exactly the Cedar Point experience that some were expecting whenever they went to America's roller coaster last week."

I can usually just internally roll my eyes, remind myself of regional differences, and move on, but where it gets me is hearing "whenever" used to describe something very specific that only happened one time, and the person speaking knows when that was -- they're not using it to say every time they do X thing, Y happens, or they're not sure when they did X, but whenever it was, Y happened.  "Whenever I had my first child"?  Well, you only had your first child once, so unless you don't remember your kid's birth date, it's "when"!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Bastet

[SoMuchTV]

In my experience the when/whenever thing is extremely regional. I grew up in a small city in Appalachia, and I don’t remember ever hearing that usage until I was a senior in high school and got an after school job where some of my coworkers were from a couple towns up the river (or down? I’m hazy on the geography). It was normal usage for them. Still doesn’t sound right to me but I try to accept it, sort of like “come with” or “take the I-5”. 

[shapeshifter]

42 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Still doesn’t sound right to me but I try to accept it, sort of like “come with” or “take the I-5”. 

Hah! Great example, because I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with "take the I-5." 

But what really frustrates me is when the grammar obscures the meaning.
Tomorrow morning I have a routine doctor appointment, and not only do they ask me to fill out a form with a pen at home, but, well, this is what I'll be handing them tomorrow:

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

because I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with "take the I-5." 

Nothing, grammatically, it's just one of those regional things that indicate not being a local if you say it the "wrong" way in a certain region; in Southern California, we'd say "Take the 5".  We omit Interstate, Highway, Route, etc. and we add "the".

But L.A. based writers for shows set in areas where the characters would instead say "Take [I/Rte/Hwy] [#]" or "Take [#]" will sometimes phrase it in local jargon.  (Which is a bit odd, given how many writers came here from elsewhere, so you'd think someone in the room would know to fix it, but it still happens enough to be noted.)

[JTMacc99]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Nothing, grammatically, it's just one of those regional things that indicate not being a local if you say it the "wrong" way in a certain region; in Southern California, we'd say "Take the 5".  We omit Interstate, Highway, Route, etc. and we add "the".

My knowledge of Southern California highways, and the way to refer to them, comes entirely from the SNL "The Californians" skits.  

[meep.meep]

17 hours ago, Bastet said:

Nothing, grammatically, it's just one of those regional things that indicate not being a local if you say it the "wrong" way in a certain region; in Southern California, we'd say "Take the 5".  We omit Interstate, Highway, Route, etc. and we add "the".

But L.A. based writers for shows set in areas where the characters would instead say "Take [I/Rte/Hwy] [#]" or "Take [#]" will sometimes phrase it in local jargon.  (Which is a bit odd, given how many writers came here from elsewhere, so you'd think someone in the room would know to fix it, but it still happens enough to be noted.)

But, way up here in Northern California, we would say "Take I5" - we would never use "the" unless referring to the name of the roadway in question ("Take the Nimitz"). 

So, "Take the I5" is just wrong.

[Bastet]

28 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

So, "Take the I5" is just wrong.

I know it's wrong in that it's not how someone would say it.  I was just clarifying for the poster who was trying to figure out what was grammatically incorrect about it.

[stewedsquash]

In this part of NC the the and the I in take the I5 sounds odd. We don’t include either. It’s just “take 95” “take 40”. Actually it’s usually “get on” whatever interstate so I guess it’s a three-fer in oddness sounding. The, I, and take. 
 

 

[Salacious Kitty]

5 hours ago, meep.meep said:

But, way up here in Northern California, we would say "Take I5" - we would never use "the" unless referring to the name of the roadway in question ("Take the Nimitz"). 

So, "Take the I5" is just wrong.

Hi Bay Area buddy. I avoid the Nimitz at all costs. 580 all the way! 😃

[meep.meep]

My mom had the radio on to KCBS all of my childhood.  The traffic reporters used to refer to it as the Nifty Nimitz.  And we all know, it's really 17!

As strange as English is, isn't grammar just what we all decided was correct?  

[Browncoat]

12 hours ago, stewedsquash said:

In this part of NC the the and the I in take the I5 sounds odd. We don’t include either. It’s just “take 95” “take 40”. Actually it’s usually “get on” whatever interstate so I guess it’s a three-fer in oddness sounding. The, I, and take. 
 

 

Same in my part of VA.  And in some places it's just "the four-lane" because there's only one four-lane highway.  (I would be hard-pressed to tell you the number of that road!) 

 

[SuprSuprElevated]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:51 PM, Salacious Kitty said:

The use of whenever in place of when (same meaning implied) is endemic in the South. I hear it all the time, and it drives me bonkers. 

So it's not just me. 

[shapeshifter]

This is vocabulary rather than grammar, but likewise involves the wrong word, which confuses meaning:

While inquiring at the MRI lab whether the results might possibly be ready the same day, the very young-sounding person on the phone replied that’s not possible because they process all the MRIs “in the northeast hemisphere.”

Baffled, I responded that I did not know what that could possibly mean, and asked if they processed all MRIs in North America.

The very youthful voice then replied it was most of Monroe County in NY.

Fortunately, they didn’t seem offended by my follow up question, but that makes me wonder if perhaps they didn’t know the definition of North America either.

And now I’m imagining that MRI processing center is short staffed because of the recent local uptick in Covid cases, and perhaps the young voice on the phone was a middle-schooler whose parent stepped away from the phone to use the toilet. Perhaps the young person’s after school care was impacted by the recent surge in Covid cases here too.

Edited October 6, 2023 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

As heard on Late Night With Seth Meyers this week:

3 hours ago, candall said:

". . . my brother's and I's"? 

Is that something someone wrote on a cue card?

[Browncoat]

My local news seems to think that people are using goats to get rid of "evasive" plants that are outgrowing the native plants.

[shapeshifter]

13 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

My local news seems to think that people are using goats to get rid of "evasive" plants that are outgrowing the native plants.

It sounds like the news copywriter has been watching too many detective shows.

[Ancaster]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:52 PM, meep.meep said:

But, way up here in Northern California, we would say "Take I5" - we would never use "the" unless referring to the name of the roadway in question ("Take the Nimitz"). 

So, "Take the I5" is just wrong.

 

On 10/2/2023 at 9:26 PM, Salacious Kitty said:

Hi Bay Area buddy. I avoid the Nimitz at all costs. 580 all the way! 😃

"Up" here in Oregon we take I (eye) 5 north and south, The Sunset and The Banfield west and east, and  just 405 if we're going in a circle around Portland, clockwise or anti-clockwise.

(I always wonder how visitors manage when they're given directions, if they're told, for example, to take 39th Ave off the Banfield, since it's signposted as Cesar Chavez Blvd on I 84.)

Oh, and Portland has 5 quadrants - N, NE, SE, SW, and NW.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Ancaster

[Crashcourse]

I am sick of seeing "noone" instead of "no one."

[Ancaster]

Spelling, not grammar per se, but here goes:

I was buying a couch yesterday and the sales person wrote down the fabric choice as "spinish."   She'd done the same things a couple of days previously when I'd gone in to scope things out, and being the kind of person who frequents boards like this, it had stayed on my mind.  She was a nice woman and we had a good rapport so I apologized, explained that I used to be a copywriter, and (kindly, I hope) asked her if she wouldn't mind if I corrected her spelling.  She looked at the word and laughed, saying "I thought it looked a bit odd," and corrected it (without me having to spell it), saying , "Is it like this?"

The moral of the story?  "Spinach" is a terrible descriptor for a soft furnishing fabric.  And I like spinach.

 

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Spelling, not grammar per se, but here goes:

I was buying a couch yesterday and the sales person wrote down the fabric choice as "spinish."   She'd done the same things a couple of days previously when I'd gone in to scope things out, and being the kind of person who frequents boards like this, it had stayed on my mind.  She was a nice woman and we had a good rapport so I apologized, explained that I used to be a copywriter, and (kindly, I hope) asked her if she wouldn't mind if I corrected her spelling.  She looked at the word and laughed, saying "I thought it looked a bit odd," and corrected it (without me having to spell it), saying , "Is it like this?"

The moral of the story?  "Spinach" is a terrible descriptor for a soft furnishing fabric.  And I like spinach.

@Ancaster, don't leave us hanging!
What was the fabric?

I hope you like your couch.

[Ancaster]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

@Ancaster, don't leave us hanging!
What was the fabric?

I hope you like your couch.

Sorry it's not showing full-sized - Primetimer wouldn't let me post the whole thing!  It's actually darker green than it shows here (you know, like fresh spinach!), at least on my computer and in real life.

I hope I like it too, otherwise it's an expensive mistake!

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ancaster

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

the sales person wrote down the fabric choice as "spinish." 

Ooohh! "Fabric choice" as in "fabric color choice."
I had an almost identical couch for 15-20 years.
It was velveteen.
In spite of not being a fan of the color, I loved the couch. 
We got it slightly used for next to nothing.
In spite of 3 kids, a husband, and a cat, it had almost zero wear and tear over the years.

[Ancaster]

16 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooohh! "Fabric choice" as in "fabric color choice."
I had an almost identical couch for 15-20 years.
It was velveteen.
In spite of not being a fan of the color, I loved the couch. 
We got it slightly used for next to nothing.
In spite of 3 kids, a husband, and a cat, it had almost zero wear and tear over the years.

Haha!  I don't mind a smooshy couch, but not smooshy overcooked  spinach texture.

[EtheltoTillie]

Speaking of indestructible sofas, I went to a wonderful weaving exhibit at the Cooper Hewitt Museum on Saturday.  The weaver being featured, Dorothy Liebes, was, among other things, instrumental in introducing modern synthetic fabrics to the upholstery industry.  So she made custom artsy weaves for Frank Lloyd Wright houses and fashion lines and then also interpreted such weaves for the large industrial market, such as curtains, sofas, and car seats.  It was a lot of fun seeing these old mid-century-modern designs I remember from childhood.  These fabrics were close to indestructible!   Remember Antron?  My aunt had one of those indestructible sofas. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[StatisticalOutlier]

Today, on the radio I heard Jacky Rosen (Jewish senator who's been threatened) say, "The antisemitic threats issued against me by this gentleman..."

Gentleman?? 

People do this all the time and I just don't get it.  Why go out of your way to use "gentleman" in a context like this, when the perfectly serviceable (and actually far more appropriate) "man" and "person" or even "individual" (if you want a long, smarter-sounding word) are available?   

Plus she pronounced antisemitic as antisemetic, which I bitched about upthread.  She hit two hot buttons in the course of just a few words. 

 

[EtheltoTillie]

8 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Today, on the radio I heard Jacky Rosen (Jewish senator who's been threatened) say, "The antisemitic threats issued against me by this gentleman..."

Gentleman?? 

People do this all the time and I just don't get it.  Why go out of your way to use "gentleman" in a context like this, when the perfectly serviceable (and actually far more appropriate) "man" and "person" or even "individual" (if you want a long, smarter-sounding word) are available?   

Plus she pronounced antisemitic as antisemetic, which I bitched about upthread.  She hit two hot buttons in the course of just a few words. 

 

That antisemitic one makes me go nucular.

[stewedsquash]

In the case of gentlemen/man I take the use in the example above as word play and tone. As in we all know the person is not a gentleman but we are calling him one. It can be a way of taking away the power of the threats.

 

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 11/4/2023 at 7:50 PM, stewedsquash said:

As in we all know the person is not a gentleman but we are calling him one. It can be a way of taking away the power of the threats.

It happens too spontaneously for that to be the case.  Like when people are being interviewed on TV after some sort of incident. 

[chitowngirl]

Can I peeve about a pronunciation? It’s inSURance, not INsurance. The emphasis is on the second syllable.

[StatisticalOutlier]

Another case of "gentleman"--on the TV news last night, there was a story about a January 6 rioter, and when the cops were coming to his house to arrest him he ran away and there's now a manhunt for him.  An official said, "They are determined to detain this gentleman tonight."

[Ancaster]

Not grammar per se but I learned a new word today that I thought some of you might appreciate.  From The Guardian's food section:

 

• Each Friday, we have a word of the day at the test kitchen that we try to sneak into as many conversations (and meetings) as possible. Last week, Milli Taylor’s word was “apricity”, meaning the warmth of the winter sun, and it got us sharing stories of snug escapes to the coast, with brisk walks, empty beaches and cosy lunches. Here are a few of our favourite coastal spots for your next breezy weekend by the sea

[Browncoat]

My local news just did a piece about a vulture that was brought in to a rescue facility "after being hit by a car with a broken wing and lead poisoning."

 

[SoMuchTV]

34 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

My local news just did a piece about a vulture that was brought in to a rescue facility "after being hit by a car with a broken wing and lead poisoning."

That poor car!  No wonder the vulture couldn’t stay away!

[SweetieDarling]

Do they even sell leaded gas anymore? I mean, that would explain the lead poisoning, but a broken wing? Was it Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

[EtheltoTillie]

23 hours ago, SweetieDarling said:

Do they even sell leaded gas anymore? I mean, that would explain the lead poisoning, but a broken wing? Was it Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

A Delorean?  I love a good copy editor joke. 

[shapeshifter]

`•.,¸¸,.•´¯𝐀 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐦𝐚𝐫 𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧¯`•.,¸¸,.•´

Background:
My daughter's sister-in-law, who has a Master's degree but grew up in a home without books and frequently speaks and writes with colloquial grammar errors posted a picture of her little son and his playmate at daycare, sitting together wearing identical lime-green, Grinch-patterned outfits.

She captioned the picture:

• When you twin with your buddy at daycare on accident

The use of "𝐨𝐧 accident" makes me squirm, but is it acceptable as a colloquialism?

Or is it wrong?

Or is "on accident" not any better than "by accident"?

[isalicat]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

`•.,¸¸,.•´¯𝐀 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐦𝐚𝐫 𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧¯`•.,¸¸,.•´

Background:
My daughter's sister-in-law, who has a Master's degree but grew up in a home without books and frequently speaks and writes with colloquial grammar errors posted a picture of her little son and his playmate at daycare, sitting together wearing identical lime-green, Grinch-patterned outfits.

She captioned the picture:

• When you twin with your buddy at daycare on accident

The use of "𝐨𝐧 accident" makes me squirm, but is it acceptable as a colloquialism?

Or is it wrong?

Or is "on accident" not any better than "by accident"?

Google says:

So, technically, the right phrase to use is “by accident.” It means something occurred unintentionally or without any kind of deliberate plan. But you'll probably find the alternate version “on accident” sometimes used, just usually in informal speech, because it's considered non-standard.

[Bastet]

Huh.  There's an entire - but based on a small study - research paper by a Linguistics professor about the evolution from "by accident" to "on accident" (summary of her conclusion: It's an age thing), yet I have never heard/seen the latter until today.  "Grammar Girl" picked up on it, and did a little more digging.

[SoMuchTV]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

`•.,¸¸,.•´¯𝐀 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐦𝐚𝐫 𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧¯`•.,¸¸,.•´

Background:
My daughter's sister-in-law, who has a Master's degree but grew up in a home without books and frequently speaks and writes with colloquial grammar errors posted a picture of her little son and his playmate at daycare, sitting together wearing identical lime-green, Grinch-patterned outfits.

She captioned the picture:

• When you twin with your buddy at daycare on accident

The use of "𝐨𝐧 accident" makes me squirm, but is it acceptable as a colloquialism?

Or is it wrong?

Or is "on accident" not any better than "by accident"?

All I can say is that I’m pleasantly surprised when I hear anyone under 40 say “by accident”. And that includes my own offspring, whom I have harrumphed at many times. I think they’re humoring me now. 

In other news, “twin” as a verb?

[ABay]

I first heard "on accident" in an episode of Angel and I hate it as much now as I did when Harmony said it.

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

In other news, “twin” as a verb?

Yes, that too. Her use of “twin” as a verb was confusing and made it necessary for me to reread it to figure out what she was talking about. 
 

34 minutes ago, ABay said:

I first heard "on accident" in an episode of Angel and I hate it as much now as I did when Harmony said it.

Interesting.
Thinking about the age-related use of “on accident,” noted here:

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

"Grammar Girl" picked up on it, and did a little more digging.

Quote

According to Barratt’s study, use of the two different versions appears to be distributed by age. Whereas “on accident” was common in people born after 1995, almost everyone born before 1970 said “by accident.” 

https://www.inst.at/trans/16Nr/01_4/barratt16.htm 

(cited in https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/articles/on-accident-versus-by-accident/)

The series Angel ran from 1999-2004.
FWIW, Mercedes McNab, who played Harmony, is Canadian.
She was born in 1980, which would fit the pattern of age-related usage described in the 2006 Barratt paper (inst.at/trans/16Nr/01_4/barratt16.htm).

Now that you mention Angel, I think I’ve heard “on accident” also used by Angel alum David Boreanaz and others on Bones — but I haven’t watched Bones in at least a couple of years. Maybe someone here can confirm?
Boreanaz was born in 1969.

Perhaps Boreanaz picked up the non-standard usage to continue to sound hip? 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Lugal]

I first heard it in "The Lollygang Save the World on Accident" a short story by Jay Lake published in a steampunk anthology in 2008.  I always assumed it was dialectal.  And since I first heard it in a steampunk setting, I thought it was an old fashioned form.

[SoMuchTV]

I mean, it makes sense that on purpose/on accident go together. Why didn’t it evolve into by purpose/by accident?  Words is weird. 

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

I mean, it makes sense that on purpose/on accident go together. Why didn’t it evolve into by purpose/by accident?  Words is weird. 

Just a guess:

• "On purpose" sounds/feels more deliberate, like a gavel banging in a court of law, or someone angry throwing something on the ground.
• "By accident" seems to attribute the event or happenstance to the accident, rather than blaming a person.

But if my guess is right, what does that say about the new "on accident"? 

[supposebly]

Assigning English prepositions consistent meaning is almost impossible. I mean: I'm on time in 5 minutes for days and we will be friends in no time at 10am, on Monday in March.

Things are on the house, by the by, to my surprise, from memory. 😉

When used for space, they seem more consistent. Going to the house, up the stairs, sitting on the stairs under the roof.

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

• "On purpose" sounds/feels more deliberate, like a gavel banging in a court of law, or someone angry throwing something on the ground.
• "By accident" seems to attribute the event or happenstance to the accident, rather than blaming a person.

I'd say that's because of the meaning of purpose and accident?

[ABay]

It's not so much the actors, but the writers on Angel etc who would use it, I think. But I don't know who wrote the offending episode.