Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[legaleagle53]

14 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

It's been a loooong time since I've been in school, but if I remember correctly, if any form of the phrase "to be" is used (is, will be, was), then "You and I" is correct.  I think @legaleagle53 probably knows the correct answer.

However, even if Randall was right, he was a dick for correcting Kevin. (Although I stopped watching the show after the first few episodes, so I don't know what the situation was.) 

Randall is right.  The linking verb "to be" ALWAYS requires any pronoun governing it it be in the Nominative (subject case).  So it is indeed "So it will just be you and I." Think of it as an equals sign:  "It = you and I."  By the same token, incidentally, the show's title should be This Is We.  

That said, most grammarians have already recognized that "This is Us" and "it will be just you and me" are a losing battle, and truthfully, the only reason the rule even exists is that 18th-Century grammarians insisted that English follow the rules of Latin, which they regarded as the perfect language model (never mind that English is a Germanic language in terms of its syntax), and in Latin, the rule is that any subject that is governed by a linking verb such as "to be" must be in the Nominative Case.  That was not, however, the original rule in English.

[Ohwell]

Thanks, @legaleagle53, it's nice to know I still remember some things I learned in school! : )

Now that I've seen my prior post, it should have read "even if Randall were right." Right?

Edited November 17, 2016 by Ohwell

[legaleagle53]

59 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Thanks, @legaleagle53, it's nice to know I still remember some things I learned in school! : )

Now that I've seen my prior post, it should have read "even if Randall were right." Right?

Actually, no, because Randall is right, so the Indicative mood ("was") is required because you're referring to a factual situation. The Subjunctive mood ("were" in this case) is only called for after "if" when you are talking about a contrary-to-fact situation (i.e., that Randall is not, in fact, right). But I give you props for at least remembering that the Subjunctive still exists in English -- most people (unless they've studied a foreign language that uses it extensively, such as German, Latin, Spanish, Italian, or French) don't!

Edited November 17, 2016 by legaleagle53

[Ohwell]

Got it!

[topanga]

14 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

By the same token, incidentally, the show's title should be This Is We.  

Too funny. You should email NBC.

 

On 10/24/2016 at 10:11 PM, riley702 said:

"Don't take it personal." drives me right up the wall. It's "personally"!

Every time I hear the Jermaine Jackson song with that title (and Monica's version), I want to scream. Just for the grammar abomination. The songs themselves are quite nice. 

Whenever I hear commercial jingles or songs with incorrect grammar, I always correct the grammar when I sing along. Does that make me an a-hole? Maybe, but I don't care. 

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

...By the same token, incidentally, the show's title should be This Is We....

Maybe that's why I've never watched that show.

[Sandman87]

On Wednesday, November 16, 2016 at 4:21 PM, legaleagle53 said:

By the same token, incidentally, the show's title should be This Is We.

Reminds me of a gag from The Venture Brothers:

Henchman 21: "Gentlemen, choose your weapons."

Henchman 24: "Are these them?"

Henchman 21: "Are these 'they.'"

Henchman 24: "Who talks like that?"

The Monarch: "Stand aside. I'm in charge here and I will assign the... are these they?"

[topanga]

A phrase I say a lot and wrote for the first time today (in another thread) is that I sometimes speed up and lay on my horn when I have the green light and a pedestrian casually J-walks in front of me. 

How did that become a term: "lay on the horn"? And more importantly, isn't it grammatically incorrect? I don't say that I lay my hand on the horn. And I'm not talking in the past tense. I'm talking in the something-perfect tense by saying I always (or almost always) do this. 

[Ohwell]

You don't mess around, do you?  LOL!

[topanga]

Heh. I brag about laying on the horn, but I've probably done it twice in my life. Usually, I just slow down and let the rude pedestrians finish crossing the street. 

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, topanga said:

A phrase I say a lot and wrote for the first time today (in another thread) is that I sometimes speed up and lay on my horn when I have the green light and a pedestrian casually J-walks in front of me. 

How did that become a term: "lay on the horn"? And more importantly, isn't it grammatically incorrect? I don't say that I lay my hand on the horn. And I'm not talking in the past tense. I'm talking in the something-perfect tense by saying I always (or almost always) do this. 

It's "lie on the horn," unless you're talking about something you did in the past.  Then (and ONLY then) is "lay on the horn" correct.  Remember, "lie" can never take a direct object.  "Lay" always does in the active voice.  

The problem is that present tense of "lay" for all persons except third-person singular ("lays") is also the past tense of "lie" in the sense of "recline" in all persons and numbers. That's why careful attention to context is important.

[rur]

I think lay on the horn is correct.  I believe the idiom "lay on", meaning "to supply something in abundance" or "use" is being used here. The sound of the horn is being provided in abundance to the jaywalker. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by rur

[Ohwell]

Ohhhh...grammar fight!  Bring it on!  

LOL

[legaleagle53]

13 hours ago, rur said:

I think lay on the horn is correct.  I believe the idiom "lay on", meaning "to supply something in abundance" or "use" is being used here. The sound of the horn is being provided in abundance to the jaywalker. 

That's certainly a possibility, but I don't think that's the intended usage here.  I think the intended use is to "lie on the horn" meaning to constantly beep it so much that people think that you actually ARE lying on it.

[Ohwell]

Round #1.........

[topanga]

On 11/23/2016 at 11:33 PM, rur said:

I think lay on the horn is correct.  I believe the idiom "lay on", meaning "to supply something in abundance" or "use" is being used here. The sound of the horn is being provided in abundance to the jaywalker. 

 

22 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's certainly a possibility, but I don't think that's the intended usage here.  I think the intended use is to "lie on the horn" meaning to constantly beep it so much that people think that you actually ARE lying on it.

I know that "lie on the horn" is grammatically correct. But I've never, ever heard that phrase. I always hear, "lay on the horn." 

[ABay]

Like, "Lay on, McDuff, and be damned he who first cries 'Hold, enough'!"

[Ohwell]

All joking aside though, I think the "lay" vs. "lie" discussion is an interesting one because, honestly, either one sounds correct to me in that particular instance. 

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, ABay said:

Like, "Lay on, McDuff, and be damned he who first cries 'Hold, enough'!"

Modern translation:  "Bring it, bitch!"

[StatisticalOutlier]

Grammar would obviously include how "between you and I" is wrong, correct?  But what about word choice?  Like when someone mixes up "silicon" and "silicone," for example.  Would that be properly considered a "grammar fail"?  "Word choice fail" doesn't have much of a ring to it.

[legaleagle53]

53 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Grammar would obviously include how "between you and I" is wrong, correct?  But what about word choice?  Like when someone mixes up "silicon" and "silicone," for example.  Would that be properly considered a "grammar fail"?  "Word choice fail" doesn't have much of a ring to it.

I would call that a spelling fail.

[StatisticalOutlier]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I would call that a spelling fail.

I agree, but in the case of silicone vs. silicon, I think it's on a higher level than just spelling, in that it indicates that the person doesn't know the difference between the two words.

What about "colonoscopy bag" when it should be "colostomy bag"?  That's not just spelling.

[shapeshifter]

On November 26, 2016 at 5:03 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

I agree, but in the case of silicone vs. silicon, I think it's on a higher level than just spelling, in that it indicates that the person doesn't know the difference between the two words.

What about "colonoscopy bag" when it should be "colostomy bag"?  That's not just spelling.

True, but it could be autocorrect fail(ure).

Edited November 28, 2016 by shapeshifter
because @DangerousMinds is correct, of course.

[StatisticalOutlier]

I guess I should point out that this is in a national printed magazine that touts itself as having a crackerjack team of fact checkers and editors.  (Silicon in a latex condom--ouch!)  I sent them a stack of corrections a few years ago and heard nothing back (maybe I shouldn't have called their current staff "thumb-typers"), so I'm thinking of taking to the dreaded Twitter for infractions, since that's apparently the only place you can get anybody's attention these days.  I'm wondering whether to use a hashtag.

And I'm going to use it for TV shows, too, to be the burr under the "between him and I" saddle.

[AimingforYoko]

Besides the already done to death their-they're-there kefluffle, my biggest pet peeves are the phase-faze and the jive-jibe. See, when it's not just posters, but professional writers who get this wrong, you know it's pervasive.

[AimingforYoko]

Double post.

Edited November 27, 2016 by AimingforYoko

[DangerousMinds]

On 11/26/2016 at 3:52 PM, legaleagle53 said:

I would call that a spelling fail.

I would call it a spelling failure. LOL.

[Wouldofshouldof]

Not a grammatical question, but . . .

"Cop a squat" or "Pop a squat"?  I've heard both, and personally say "cop" (That is in the 1 or 2 times I've ever used the term in my life.)

On 7/28/2014 at 11:53 AM, kariyaki said:

Yeah, I don't mind the things that seem to be a language evolution but then there are the things that a lot of people do that are just plain wrong. Case in point: could of. OMG, I feel like I see red when I see the word "of" used as a verb. Drives. Me. CRAZY.

OLD post, but I'd like everyone here to know that my name is meant to be ironic, LOL.  I created it when a certain poster was driving me nuts with her use of would of/should of.

[Archery]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 8:03 PM, legaleagle53 said:

The problem is that present tense of "lay" for all persons except third-person singular ("lays") is also the past tense of "lie" in the sense of "recline" in all persons and numbers. That's why careful attention to context is important.

"Lay, lady, lay.  Lay across my big brass bed."  One of the zillion reasons I can't listen to Bob Dylan songs. 

[Ohwell]

If I continue to see or hear someone write or say "then" instead of "than"--I'm going to lose my shit one day.  Did these people never attend school?

[bilgistic]

People are writing "apart" instead of "a part" now, as in, "I'm apart of a culture that refuses to learn real words anymore." These are two very different concepts!

[Ohwell]

People are also writing "alot" instead of "a lot."  

[bilgistic]

Comic writer Allie Brosh pondered on the "Alot".

Edited December 3, 2016 by bilgistic

[StatisticalOutlier]

This was in a movie, but I saw the movie on TV, so it's okay here, right?

Referring to sinkholes in Florida, a character played by John Leguizamo complained that his house "sankholed."  Double past tense, I guess.  I wonder if it was scripted, or if he was kind of mangling English.  Either way, I thought it was hilarious.

[Sandman87]

More of a vocabulary slip than grammar from last night's Apollo Gauntlet, where Apollo is having a conversation with his magical talking gauntlet.

Guantlet: "Apollo I  should have told you sooner, but there's a prophecy in this realm that the warrior who wears me into battle will achieve omnipotence."

Apollo: "Jeez, uh, that could put a real damper on my dating life."

[Petunia13]

[scriggle]

5 hours ago, Petunia13 said:

[Sandman87]

I prefer the Ghost of Christmas Which Previously Had Been About to Be.

------------------------

Our local news gave us this gem tonight:

"If you're upset by the electrical rate hike, you only have a few days to do so."

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Sandman87 said:

...Our local news gave us this gem tonight:

"If you're upset by the electrical rate hike, you only have a few days to do so."

Depending upon the text of the previous line (i.e., if it explained what one was to do within the next few days) maybe it would work with a semicolon joining the two sentences?

Regardless, I appreciate your festive icon, @Sandman87.

[Sandman87]

Thank you. "He sees you when you're sleeping..."

And there was no previous line in that example. That was the first thing the anchor said when they came back from a commercial.

[Sandman87]

Last night on the same news program the same person reporting on the same issue led into the story with: "Tonight is the last day for those who are opposed to the utility rate increase."

Leaving aside for the moment any questions about night being day, it sounds like the city council is planning to execute everyone who's opposed to the plan.

[Haleth]

Wow.  Tough city.

[PepSinger]

LMAO. That's hilarious.

[Ohwell]

I was watching Hoda Kotb on the Today show this morning and she said "misCHEEvious."  My left eye started twitching.

[Haleth]

Hoda frequently disappoints me with her lack of knowledge.

[3pwood]

22 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I was watching Hoda Kotb on the Today show this morning and she said "misCHEEvious."  My left eye started twitching.

Is that the British pronunciation, perhaps?  Like conTROVersy?  Which would explain nothing, unless she grew up in the UK (I know nothing about her). 

[Ohwell]

3 hours ago, 3pwood said:

Is that the British pronunciation, perhaps?  Like conTROVersy?  Which would explain nothing, unless she grew up in the UK (I know nothing about her). 

Even if it was the British pronunciation, it would still be "misCHEEvous" because there is no "i" in the last syllable.  It's a common error, so I don't think Hoda even knows anything about a British pronunciation, if there is one.

[MaryMitch]

Where I live (southern Appalachia) I hear "misCHEEvious" all the time; I had teachers who pronounced it that way.

[J.D.]

'Peeked,' as in, "That story 'peeked' my attention."

I also cringe when someone writes, 'segway.'

Edited December 30, 2016 by J.D.
Apparently, I can't spell. :)

[HunterHunted]

37 minutes ago, J.D. said:

'Peeked,' as in, "That story 'peeked' my attention."

I also cringe when someone write, 'segway.'

Ehh, I don't really have huge issues with those. Those are romance language loan words. A lot of people who have never seen those phrases written have no idea that they shouldn't try to use English spelling rules for those words.