S03.E07: Chapter Twenty Three - The Spies

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

Also Grogu is going to use his force powers to take control of the Mythosaur and use it to rescue his dad calling it now.

Grogu might be able to levitate / freeze a charging Mythosaur... maybe even communicate that he is not an enemy... but he is not Bran Stark

[Peace 47]

20 hours ago, Dani said:

He knew Bo had the dark saber. He wanted her to give it to him and order tell her people the planet is his. Which I didn’t realize that he shouldn’t know that until I read your post. 

So then someone at the saber handoff or someone back on Nevarro within the covert has to have been a spy (even if some or all of the survivors are, too), because Bo’s former squadron and the Children of the Watch should be the only people to know that Bo got it back.

Gideon seemed surprised at the start of the episode to learn from Elia that Children of the Watch and Axe’s group had united under Bo to defeat the pirates Gideon sent to Nevarro, but Gideon’s spy should have told him about this unification, since Gideon knows Bo has the Darksaber.  (On the other hand, time did pass, so maybe his spy only got word to him of everything that went down after Gideon talked to Elia.)

Axe, Kosha, the Armorer or that droid that is friends with Carson Teva are the only spy candidates then among actual characters (vs faceless Mandalorians), setting aside Bo, Din and Grogu.   Axe did leave the final fight, but he didn’t have a way out of the underground until Paz pointed it out the roof escape to him (vs. the Armorer, who never walked into the danger in the first place), and Axe and Paz were the ones to save Grogu from the land ship when the creature attacked it.  Axe did give a pensive look when one of the survivors mentioned that they had sent scouts down to the Great Forge, but none had survived, but that could be a lot of things.

Maybe it is Kosha, and Axe and the Armorer are the red herrings.

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Peace 47

[Hanahope]

Moff could have told Axe to keep Grogu safe, he may think he still may have a way to get Grogu’s powers.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Yes Yes Yes Yes! No No No No! Sounds like Grogu has reached the Terrible Twos.

That land ship thing looked like it was on Dune (the 1984 movie version, anyway; I can't speak to the recent remake) without the sand. In fact, there were several visual nods to Dune in this episode, including the the title. (The Spies ~ The Spice.)

[tv-talk]

On 4/14/2023 at 8:50 PM, Dani said:

Din also said that his group didn’t care either. It’s Bo’s group that cares about that. The Armorer turning on her clan for that reason would not work for me. 

The Armorer had Din fight the big blue guy for the Dark Saber and control of the Mandos. Maybe their clan of religious zealots doesnt believe in the weapon but they clearly understand that the majority of Mandos do swear by it. That's why Big Blue was ready to kill Din and claim the sword and leadership of the Mandos for himself. And the armorer clearly believed that would have been a legit outcome if Din hadnt won the fight. All I am saying is I can see how the writers can make the Armorer a traitor and have it fit the story easily. And I kinda hope they do simply because making Axe the traitor is so obvious and in your face. A real twist would be the Armorer secretly having sided with Gideon.

On 4/14/2023 at 11:26 PM, magdalene said:

It's not weird by Star Wars standards. I know very little about the actual Star Wars before The Mandalorian but I do know that Darth Vader himself was played by two men, the guy in the Vader suit and the famous actor who voiced him. Are you going to diss what's his name, James Earl Jones? for "only" voicing Darth Vader?

Ugh, I think by referring to James Earl Jones as "what's his name" you have done all the "dissing" that's needed.

At any rate, specifically because he was not on set let alone wearing Vader's suit, "what's his name" isnt even credited in the first 2 films because Jones didnt think he should be given billing for Vader as it was just voice work for him. I wonder how much time Pascal spent voicing Mandalorian this season- 45mins lol?

Edited April 17, 2023 by tv-talk

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

All I am saying is I can see how the writers can make the Armorer a traitor and have it fit the story easily. And I kinda hope they do simply because making Axe the traitor is so obvious and in your face. A real twist would be the Armorer secretly having sided with Gideon.

From a storytelling perspective, the Armorer makes for a more interesting story since it will make Din (and the others in their covert) question their beliefs. With Axe, a revelation that he's a traitor would amount to a shrug and a "always figured he was a jerk." Bo-Katan was already the new leader of their faction, so his betrayal would only solidify her position. It wouldn't matter much, personally to Din. It might make the Children of the Watch faction split again from Bo-Katan's faction if they didn't trust that group anymore.

But the Armorer would shake a lot of people to their core. Din has been relying heavily on her as a guide and moral compass. If anything would knock him out of his fundamentalist beliefs and get him to do something wild and crazy like eat in front of others without his helmet on, it would be learning that his spiritual advisor and mentor was a traitor. It would make all the Mandalorians question what being a Mandalorian was all about. There might be some who would follow her anyway. Bo-Katan's gang might split from the others unless some of them them get disillusioned and join their group instead of merely being allied with that faction. It will take something big (literally, if it's the mythosaur) to draw them all together as Mandalorians again, and they'll have to figure out what even being a Mandalorian is now. Even Grogu might be affected, though we don't know exactly what he thought of the Armorer, if he was starting to like and trust her or if he was wary.

There's very little impact if it's the survivors who led them into the trap, which is why I think if it is them, they were working with someone else.

[tv-talk]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

From a storytelling perspective, the Armorer makes for a more interesting story since it will make Din (and the others in their covert) question their beliefs........

Great post! Agree 100% and would love it if they are opening the door to pure insanity...like not having a tin can on your head for all your waking life. In one recent episode Din said "...children need to play in the sun" or something to that effect. Uh, how often have you felt the sun on your face Din?

The armorer siding with Gideon for creed reasons would really be an interesting twist that opened the door for lots more possibilities than simply Bo killing Axe which is what will happen if he's the traitor.

I have no doubt the Mythosaur is going to save their butts.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, tv-talk said:

The Armorer had Din fight the big blue guy for the Dark Saber and control of the Mandos. Maybe their clan of religious zealots doesnt believe in the weapon but they clearly understand that the majority of Mandos do swear by it. That's why Big Blue was ready to kill Din and claim the sword and leadership of the Mandos for himself. And the armorer clearly believed that would have been a legit outcome if Din hadnt won the fight. All I am saying is I can see how the writers can make the Armorer a traitor and have it fit the story easily.

I understand. I was just pointing out what Din said. Anyway, Bo and Gideon didn’t fight to death. Gideon and Din didn’t fight to the death. Paz and Din didn’t fight to the death. My point is that I don’t see any way the Armorer would think Gideon is the rightful owner. There are other ways I could easily see them making her the traitor though. 

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

From a storytelling perspective, the Armorer makes for a more interesting story since it will make Din (and the others in their covert) question their beliefs. With Axe, a revelation that he's a traitor would amount to a shrug and a "always figured he was a jerk." Bo-Katan was already the new leader of their faction, so his betrayal would only solidify her position. It wouldn't matter much, personally to Din. It might make the Children of the Watch faction split again from Bo-Katan's faction if they didn't trust that group anymore.

But the Armorer would shake a lot of people to their core. Din has been relying heavily on her as a guide and moral compass. If anything would knock him out of his fundamentalist beliefs and get him to do something wild and crazy like eat in front of others without his helmet on, it would be learning that his spiritual advisor and mentor was a traitor. It would make all the Mandalorians question what being a Mandalorian was all about. There might be some who would follow her anyway. Bo-Katan's gang might split from the others unless some of them them get disillusioned and join their group instead of merely being allied with that faction. It will take something big (literally, if it's the mythosaur) to draw them all together as Mandalorians again, and they'll have to figure out what even being a Mandalorian is now. Even Grogu might be affected, though we don't know exactly what he thought of the Armorer, if he was starting to like and trust her or if he was wary.

There's very little impact if it's the survivors who led them into the trap, which is why I think if it is them, they were working with someone else.

I agree. It being the Armorer carries the most weight with the audience and Din. So much of the show and his interactions have been about challenging his worldview and nothing would do that more than the Armorer’s betrayal. He even said in the episode that he cares about honor, loyalty and character. That’s what he believes the creed stands for. So if the very person who oversees the taking of the creed acts without those traits it creates more plot and character development opportunities than anything else they could do. 

[Ilovepie]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:13 AM, kimaken said:

I wonder where he thought he'd find back-up? They couldn't communicate with the rest of the fleet (or anyone else) and the Armorer took the ship filled with injured back to the fleet. I hope he's not one of the spies but it's looking more likely that he is.

That was my thought too, plus the comment about "we are the good guys for the right price" or whatever was said by his fellow bounty hunter. He obviously has issues with Bo leading.......plus, I will be so sad if it's the Armorer!

So bummed about Paz - he was a dick, but he was also a boss and that is a tough loss for the Mandalorians - he was fierce taking out most of Gideon's goons single handed. RIP!

I cannot wait for Grogru to meet the Mythosaur - after taming the Rancor in BOBF, he is definitely going to be besties with this one too, right????

[magdalene]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Ugh, I think by referring to James Earl Jones as "what's his name" you have done all the "dissing" that's needed.

At any rate, specifically because he was not on set let alone wearing Vader's suit, "what's his name" isnt even credited in the first 2 films because Jones didnt think he should be given billing for Vader as it was just voice work for him. I wonder how much time Pascal spent voicing Mandalorian this season- 45mins lol?

Fair enough.  I actually meant no disrespect to James Earl Jones. I am sure he is a fine actor.  I do think Pedro Pascal deserves a lot of credit for the success of the show.  I am also glad that Brendan and Lateef are specifically credited as actors this season.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm going to laugh if we spent the last week debating who the other spy is/was and it turns out, it's none of the Mandalorians and is like some Spy for Thrawn that appeared briefly in the Imperial scene 😁😆

[FnkyChkn34]

I just rewatched the episode, and I don't know why I did that to myself... 😥

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm going to laugh if we spent the last week debating who the other spy is/was and it turns out, it's none of the Mandalorians and is like some Spy for Thrawn that appeared briefly in the Imperial scene 😁😆

I was thinking this too as I rewatched.  I still don't know.

[Peace 47]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm going to laugh if we spent the last week debating who the other spy is/was and it turns out, it's none of the Mandalorians and is like some Spy for Thrawn that appeared briefly in the Imperial scene 😁😆

The real spies are the friends we made along The Way.  😉

[minamurray78]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:46 PM, tv-talk said:

Was Pedro Pascal even on the set once for the filming? This guy is the supposed star of the show and he was filming The Last of Us while literally calling in his Mando lines. Weird dynamic to say the least.

I do have some feelings about this as well, and I guess it's different for everyone, but I'm starting to dissociate the character from Pascal, despite it being his voice.

I know that further down the thread the James Earl Jones issue was mentioned, but to me that's different. I don´t know that Jones did any kind of promotion for the movies back in the 80's, I was a toddler. But Pascal has been at the head of this since day one, in interviews, shows, red carpets, in ads for the baby yoda funko doll... I didn´t necesarily started watching because of him, but despite his face being hidden he gave the character a personality or at least I thought he did. I'm aware of the existence of extras for some scenes etc, but now I'm watching Din interact with Grogu and suddenly I think, is that even him underneath that? iIt's just, I don´t know, weird.

[kimaken]

While we're waiting for the S3 finale, I have some questions that I hope someone more Star Wars/Mandalorian  knowledgable can answer.

(1) Is Din Djarin our Mando's birth name, or was that the name that his rescuer gave him?

(2) In S1 Din was bringing his beskar wages (that he earned from the bounties he brought in to Greef Karga) to the Armorer to have new parts of his armor made, with some being given "for the foundlings" -- were the foundlings raised as a group or were they adopted into the families/clans of their rescuers?

Side note--someone earlier asked why Din's armor was shinier and made from more beskar than the others. If I recall correctly--he was paid a huge sum in pure beskar from The Client (who paid the bounty on Grogu for Dr. Pershing's research at the time).

(3) I've heard mention that Bo Katan and her sister, Duchess Satine had a nephew, Korkie Kryze--and there was speculation as to whether the Armorer could be their sister (and mother of Korkie) -- but given that Korkie's surname was Kryze, wouldn't that mean the royal sisters had a brother (not a sister) who died before their father did so the royal line passed to Duchess Satine?

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, kimaken said:

(1) Is Din Djarin our Mando's birth name, or was that the name that his rescuer gave him?

Birth name. When it is first revealed it leads to him talking about growing up on his home planet and being rescued. 

45 minutes ago, kimaken said:

(2) In S1 Din was bringing his beskar wages (that he earned from the bounties he brought in to Greef Karga) to the Armorer to have new parts of his armor made, with some being given "for the foundlings" -- were the foundlings raised as a group or were they adopted into the families/clans of their rescuers?

That hasn’t been explained. 

45 minutes ago, kimaken said:

Side note--someone earlier asked why Din's armor was shinier and made from more beskar than the others. If I recall correctly--he was paid a huge sum in pure beskar from The Client (who paid the bounty on Grogu for Dr. Pershing's research at the time).

That is true but his is also shinier because it is newer and he hasn’t painted it like the others. They paint to to represent something or align with a group. 

46 minutes ago, kimaken said:

(3) I've heard mention that Bo Katan and her sister, Duchess Satine had a nephew, Korkie Kryze--and there was speculation as to whether the Armorer could be their sister (and mother of Korkie) -- but given that Korkie's surname was Kryze, wouldn't that mean the royal sisters had a brother (not a sister) who died before their father did so the royal line passed to Duchess Satine?

Not necessarily. Not every culture is patriarchal. Mandalorians have a clan system so every member of the clan may have had the same last name. There is a lot of speculation about who Korkie’s parents are. 

[paigow]

38 minutes ago, Dani said:

Not necessarily. Not every culture is patriarchal. Mandalorians have a clan system so every member of the clan may have had the same last name. There is a lot of speculation about who Korkie’s parents are. 

Korkie addressed / referred to Duchess Satine as his Aunt. But an actual blood relationship was never confirmed. Also, he escaped Mandalore after Maul executed Satine, but has not been since then...

[Uncle JUICE]

Imagine being a Mandalorian and your name is KORKIE? Good luck sounding cool with that. Dude would dread every introduction, forever. "Boba Fett." "Paz Visla." "Axe Woves."

"Hi fellas, nice to meet you, I'm Korkie."

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Uncle JUICE

[FnkyChkn34]

Just clarifying, do people mean Sabine when they are talking about Bo's sister?  I thought that was her name.

[Ilovepie]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Just clarifying, do people mean Sabine when they are talking about Bo's sister?  I thought that was her name.

No - Duchess Satine is different from Sabine Wren, but they are both Mandalorians. Sabine was on Star Wars Rebels. Satine was on Clone Wars, and she was the almost girlfriend of Obi-Wan. Sabine is a warrior, Satine a queen like diplomat that was ruler of Mandalore (although she could also fight when necessary). Duchess Satine was Bo-Katan's sister, Sabine is not.

[paigow]

21 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Just clarifying, do people mean Sabine when they are talking about Bo's sister?  I thought that was her name.

Mandalorians are a lot like Targaryens... All of their names sound the same....

Satine Kryze <> Sabine Wren

Edited April 18, 2023 by paigow

[FnkyChkn34]

30 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

No - Duchess Satine is different from Sabine Wren, but they are both Mandalorians. Sabine was on Star Wars Rebels. Satine was on Clone Wars, and she was the almost girlfriend of Obi-Wan. Sabine is a warrior, Satine a queen like diplomat that was ruler of Mandalore (although she could also fight when necessary). Duchess Satine was Bo-Katan's sister, Sabine is not.

Oh, thank you!  I did not know that there were two with such similar names.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Imagine being a Mandalorian and your name is KORKIE? Good luck sounding cool with that. Dude would dread every introduction, forever. "Boba Fett." "Paz Visla." "Axe Woves."

"Hi fellas, nice to meet you, I'm Korkie."

 

Even by Star Wars standards that name is stupid. Even the Armourer saying that name couldn't make it sound cool.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

Satine was on Clone Wars, and she was the almost girlfriend of Obi-Wan.

Almost? Given how restrained Kenobi is, they were practically dry humping in the middle of the battle. 

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Almost? Given how restrained Kenobi is, they were practically dry humping in the middle of the battle. 

I remember it as they were basically living on Fuck Mountain, but that might be my head canon. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The evidence is unequivocal. 

[paigow]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Almost? Given how restrained Kenobi is, they were practically dry humping in the middle of the battle. 

Which is how Kenobi lost the moral high ground to bitch at Anakin about Padme...

[Ilovepie]

23 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I remember it as they were basically living on Fuck Mountain, but that might be my head canon. 

You and me both @Uncle JUICE, you and me both......which reminds me, is Lux Bonteri still alive in the canon? Because if he is, I would love a hook up with him and "Not a Jedi" Ahsoka in the upcoming show......

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

which reminds me, is Lux Bonteri still alive in the canon? 

Unknown. he definitely survived Clone Wars  though

7 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Just clarifying, do people mean Sabine when they are talking about Bo's sister?  I thought that was her name.

Satine & Kenobi

Sabine with Darksaber

Sabine & Ahsoka in Rebels finale

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please keep the conversation related to this episode. It's gone way off topic, and if you would like to continue the discussion of the other Star Wars properties, please take it to the appropriate topic.

Nothing has been moved at this point, but going forward it could be removed, and repeated infractions may result in further sanctions. Thank you.

[Uncle JUICE]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Which is how Kenobi lost the moral high ground to bitch at Anakin about Padme...

I see what you did there. 

[FnkyChkn34]

Mild spoiler warning:  Well, I guess we know who the title of the show refers to now.

Spoiler

...not. 

The finale did nothing to clarify this episode for me.

 

[Browncoat]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:54 PM, Ottis said:

Mandalorians continue to not be the sharpest knives in the drawer. When one see a massive hazard on the starboard bow, one turns port, not sharp starboard.

Or maybe stop?  Just not get close enough for it to smash your ship to smithereens?

What I want to know is where were all these Survivors and Empire sympathizers when Mando, Grogu, and Bo-Katan were on Mandalore before?  If the Survivors detected the ship landing this time, why not before?  I also expected to see some of the same creatures, but maybe the Moff and crew got rid of all of those.

[MissLucas]

Various forums/reviews have the theory floating around that the 'spies' in the episode's title is a biblical reference. When the Jews returned from Egypt they sent out 'spies' to explore the promised land and check for dangers and threats.

[lucindabelle]

I for one would be very sorry if the armored turns out to be a spy, that I have to admit the way it was filmed. It certainly looked like something bad was about to happen. I was thinking more like somehow they would get shut down.

 

I for one would be very sorry if the armored turns out to be a spy that I have to admit the way it was filmed. It certainly looked like something bad was about to happen. I was thinking more like somehow they would get shut down.

 

I really just hate that trope of ha ha I was evil all along. It’s a cliche. And “this is the way” is so iconic and we first heard it from her.

 

I do wonder why the mandalorian have different accents haha. 

[Orbert]

I think it's because a lot of the Mandalorians aren't actually from Mandalore, but are foundlings brought into the tribe from other planets.  Din Djarin was a foundling.  So they have different accents because they're from different places.