S04.E10: The Death of Jonathan Moore

[Door County Cherry]

Quote

With love and loss weighing heavily on his mind, Joe commits a final act in hopes of never walking down the same path again.  

 

[Spartan Girl]

All I have to say is

[seacliffsal]

Because the story really seemed to pick up in episode 7, I did binge the second half of season 4 today.  I think it took too many episodes to really get the season going, but once it did it felt like the earlier seasons.  I liked the twists to the story-and Joe finally kept his word and didn't kill Nadia (yet his plan for her was horrific).  Her slow realization of just what he had done/was planning for her was well done.  

I really thought he had died, so was surprised that he lived through "falling" off the bridge.  So, now he's back in NYC and bought a book store.  His story has gone full circle.

[Spartan Girl]

I’m FURIOUS about poor Nadia.

So the only difference between Joe’s relationship with Love and that of Kate (other than Joe finally deciding to stop bullshitting himself) is that Kate is more of an enabler than co killer. Which I guess is all he really wanted…

Until he picks another girl to fixate on.

Next season better be the last. Like I said, Joe can’t keep getting away with this. It’s time for karma, dammit!

[methodwriter85]

6 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

So, now he's back in NYC and bought a book store.  His story has gone full circle.

Right down to his clean shaven, shorter hair look. Although I think that was about him shedding the Jonathan persona and incorporating Rhys.

[Anela]

No fucking way!

At least Marianne got away, but Kate was stupid, and he's still getting away with murder. 

6 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’m FURIOUS about poor Nadia.

So the only difference between Joe’s relationship with Love and that of Kate (other than Joe finally deciding to stop bullshitting himself) is that Kate is more of an enabler than co killer. Which I guess is all he really wanted…

Until he picks another girl to fixate on.

Next season better be the last. Like I said, Joe can’t keep getting away with this. It’s time for karma, dammit!

I thought this was the last season. Are they really going for another one?

[Door County Cherry]

8 hours ago, Anela said:

I thought this was the last season. Are they really going for another one?

It hasn't been renewed as far as I know but they also never said it's the last season.  It's one of the few Netflix shows probably getting a 5th season even though this one should have been time limited. 

[peachmangosteen]

I thought the second half was worse than the first tbh and the first half was very bad lol.

I'm hoping for 1 more truncated (maybe 6 eps) season and for Joe to finally get got. It's past time.

[Lebanna]

Marienne has to get him. She needs to save Nadia and pay her back for saving her and Juliette.

Poor Eddie. I actually felt sorry for him there in the street. He was such an idiot and so well meaning.

I’ve completely hated Joe since season 1, but what he did this season needs absolute revenge. We need to see him hurt for a very long time and then die hating himself. It’s the only justice possible.

Kate is an idiot. She’s also a really bad person and I hope the parents of all the little kids she murdered destroy her life as well.

Roll on season 5.

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Marienne has to get him. She needs to save Nadia and pay her back for saving her and Juliette

If there's a season 5, this needs to be the big conflict/goal. Poor Nadia. The guilt Marienne has to feel vs. The fear of exposing her and Juliette to Joe. It will be a nice parallel to season 2 though Candace wasn't smart about it.

Edited March 11, 2023 by methodwriter85

[Door County Cherry]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm hoping for 1 more truncated (maybe 6 eps) season and for Joe to finally get got. It's past time.

Yeah but I don't know if the ending is going to be satisfying in any way.  This ending was ridiculous.  Joe gets to just be Joe and get away with it all.  Don't Sherry and Cary remember him from the cage?  Marienne is too scared to go after him? 

Is it Nadia?  Sherry and Cary?  Dr. Nicky?  Ellie?  Kate? (meh)

Can anyone now that Joe is richer than anything?

I don't know if I didn't like the first half or the second half more (or less?)  But Rhys seemed to get even more annoying once it was revealed he was a hallucination. 

[Anela]

29 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Yeah but I don't know if the ending is going to be satisfying in any way.  This ending was ridiculous.  Joe gets to just be Joe and get away with it all.  Don't Sherry and Cary remember him from the cage?  Marienne is too scared to go after him? 

Is it Nadia?  Sherry and Cary?  Dr. Nicky?  Ellie?  Kate? (meh)

Can anyone now that Joe is richer than anything?

I don't know if I didn't like the first half or the second half more (or less?)  But Rhys seemed to get even more annoying once it was revealed he was a hallucination. 

Agreed with all of this. I was wondering about the people you mentioned. Sherry and Cary built a new self-help course/tour out of their experience in his cage, FFS. Couldn't he still be charged for that? He gave them a gun, and told them to shoot each other (or one to shoot the other). Marienne got away, but could still report it. 

The deal was also that he and Kate keep each other good. I guess she stopped caring about that, since her people were still clearing up after him. 

6 minutes ago, LtKelley said:

Ok, so here is my problem. 

I figured Rhys was a hallucination when none of the socially snobby people would ever acknowledge him. I thought Joe let Marianne get away too easily. But these aren't flaws in the story, I was still having fun every time Barbara from Call the Midwife said "fuck" and I generally like how Joe only kills rich obnoxious people *except when he doesn't.

But here's my complete "wtf?" disconnect. Once again, its made very very clear that Joe while not struggling to put food on the table, is not a wealthy man and can't use money to make his problems go away. So, who paid for the glass cage in London? Who BUILT the glass cage in London? Who built the glass cage in London IN AN ABANDONED TUBE STATION? That Joe can't possibly have owned? How could no one notice this happening?

In season one I could buy the whole glass cage for rare book storage. In season two, it was in a storage unit, and Home Depot is a thing, and Joe seems good with his hands. In season three, Love had money and it was in a private home so people would just think they were remodeling.  But this season, the glass cage was built in an abandoned tube station that had an obvious and apparently unlocked street access. 

Right. Wouldn't there be homeless people down there? Teenagers going down there for a smoke, or to use Ouija boards? That sort of thing. 

The money: he took money from Love's secret account. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Anela

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, LtKelley said:

The money thing I can accept your hand wave of "its from Love's secret account" but how do you get stuff delivered to an abandoned subway station you don't own?

I feel like I remember a brief shot of crates in Joe's apartment, which suggested to me he had the cage mailed to him in pieces.

[peachmangosteen]

Yea, the whole show is pretty much nonsensical and not rooted in reality lol.

[MrsR]

12 hours ago, LtKelley said:

Ok, so here is my problem. 

I figured Rhys was a hallucination when none of the socially snobby people would ever acknowledge him. I thought Joe let Marianne get away too easily. But these aren't flaws in the story, I was still having fun every time Barbara from Call the Midwife said "fuck" and I generally like how Joe only kills rich obnoxious people *except when he doesn't.

Love had money and it was in a private home so people would just think they were remodeling. 

It wasn't in the house it was in the basement of the bakery, Love's bakery where she killed the neighbor.

I don't think the one on in London is the same cage. I think he rebuilt it because it had a new lock system. After Cary and Sharri got out that one became a crime scene. Joe left with Quinn's money but nothing else. I can overlook the location in London cause it was super cool.

As for the rest there's some memory loss here. After the disastrous sex party and once Sharri and Cary woke up only Quinn interacted with them in the cage. She gave them the gun and told them to choose. She hit the kid and tossed him down the stairs. She confessed out loud to killing the neighbor. Joe on the other hand saved the kid and took him to the hospital, Joe was found drugged on the floor of his own house. Joe has plausible deniability that he was the enabling husband covering up for his violent violent wife. Marienne ran so she never told anyone that she thought he killed her husband. She didn't want any involvement because of her kid.

So I can accept it all.

Now on to season four. I should know not to doubt these showrunners. I had little hope after the first five episodes, no cap of invisibility, no cage, no real insight in to rich Londoners. Nothing felt right. I did think Rhys was Joe's other, that seemed obvious. He never interacted with the others. 

And then finally the Cap Of Invisibility appeared!!!! And The Cage!!! I was back home again! 

Oh when Tom Lockwood defaced that first edition of Winston Churchill and Joe's book love ignited in a flame of burning hatred, I screamed in glee.

So now Joe has found his calling, his resources, his enabler and his true love, himself. Absolutely chilling ending to the season and a fitting ending to the series if that is what it turns out to be.

Loved, Loved, Loved, Pheobe. There's always one friend who is likable and redeemable.

Was bothered forever by the fact that Nadia has nearly the same face as the actress who played Delilah (sans makeup). Very similar.

Poor poor Nadia.  She thought he was the student and she was the master of mystery but she so outmatched.

Showrunner sure fooled me with the opening episodes and finished big.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by MrsR

[iMonrey]

I thought the second half of the season was better than the first, but that's not saying much. The first half bored me to tears, it was a real struggle just to get through it. The new cast of characters just didn't grab me and the overall premise wasn't working for me. Joe is supposed to be the antagonist, the driving force, not the passive victim of someone who is messing with him.

The second half managed to correct that. And we got to see more of the old Joe. But the gimmick of Rhys talking to him wore thin and didn't really make sense anymore. I never understood why he zeroed in on Rhys as his alter ego or why he kept seeing him even after realizing he was just an hallucination. Why does he identify with Rhys?

There doesn't need to be another season. I don't need to see Joe get any kind of comeuppance. I'm fine with leaving him where he is now, I think it's in keeping with the theme that he gets away with it all.

Quote

But this season, the glass cage was built in an abandoned tube station that had an obvious and apparently unlocked street access. 

To get into the lower area where the cage was you needed that key he had hidden inside the book. What wasn't realistic is that Nadia said she made a copy of it and put it back. That's like an old-fashioned skeleton key, I don't think you can just go to the local Ace Hardware and have a copy made like you can with a modern doorknob key.

Quote

 I was wondering about the people you mentioned. Sherry and Cary built a new self-help course/tour out of their experience in his cage, FFS. Couldn't he still be charged for that?

How could they prove it though? 

[MrsR]

Nadia made a copy of his flat key I thought. Did she say she made a copy of the underground key? I'm confused about the keys, I thought the skeleton key was to the cage. Now I'm really confusing myself. 

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

Poor poor Nadia.  She thought he was the student and she was the master of mystery but she so outmatched.

Someone on Twitter wrote about how Nadia signifies the last final thread of decency in Joe being ripped away because he didn't protect the "kid" that he always seemed to bond with each season.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Someone on Twitter wrote about how Nadia signifies the last final thread of decency in Joe being ripped away because he didn't protect the "kid" that he always seemed to bond with each season.

And now I’m terrified that he’s going to try and take Henry back…

I read a post on a site that Kate is more evil than Love, she just didn’t want to get her hands dirty. I think they might be right. Love was unstable while Kate is more cold-blooded.

[Black Knight]

4 hours ago, LtKelley said:

Because he sees himself in Rhys. Rhys is born poor, raised like white trash but is smart and claws his way into an upper level school. Then Rhys discovers he's really the son of an earl and thats what Joe really wants - he wants to be considered worthy.

And finally, as Joe said to Marienne, Rhys had done bad things and gotten another chance. 

And then we see what Rhys did with that second chance: He became popular and beloved across the spectrum, with everyone wanting him to run for mayor of London.

Joe ends this season in something of a similar position, as he's getting publicity now for being a wealthy philanthropist.

I can't make up my mind about Kate. Her dad accused her of making sure to name-drop Adam to him so that he'd kill Adam, and it seemed like Kate might have done the same thing with Joe, telling him all about dad and making sure to mention the refurbished airport so that Joe would kill daddy for her. The main argument against this in my mind is that, if she really has no problem with killing, then she's just Love II.

The other possibility for Kate that we've been presented with is that she's willing to let Joe's past misdeeds go because she has past misdeeds of her own, but that her agreement with him is that they aren't going to commit any new ones, and that she truly wants to be good going forward. We don't know if she knows that Joe killed Eddie and framed Nadia for it. My feeling is that we're not going to know who Kate really is until Marienne and/or Nadia approach her. They have to. It's very risky and could blow up in their faces the same way it blew up in Candace's when she went to Love (but then that would be the show just doing Love II), but I don't see what other choice they'll have. As Joe noted, he has all kinds of resources now that protect him. But those resources are through Kate. She's not even married him yet - and I kind of suspect that, having witnessed what happened to Phoebe when she married Adam, Kate never will marry Joe, she'll always make up an excuse. So to take Joe down requires getting Kate to cut off Joe's access to her resources, and to use her resources to take him down.

Joe himself certainly seems to have no intention of sticking to the agreement with Kate. In his VO at the end, while he noted he has other ways to handle problems besides killing, he never said anything about never killing again. And he further noted, chillingly, that killing is easy for him now. So this season is an important inflection point for Joe. He's no longer in denial about who he is, and further, he's comfortable with it. Next season is probably going to have a high body count. It should also be the last season IMO. The show began in NYC; it seems fitting to have it end in NYC. Full circle.

[MrsR]

I'm on the fence about Kate. But I see her as a Ghislaine Maxwell character there at the end. An enabler to a monster.

I do want to say that that wasn't Joe talking at the end, that was Rhys. They both went into the water but only Rhys came out. Does Kate even realize she's with Rhys? And will she object.

 

[BlueSkies]

I always found not something likable about Joe but some parts of me always emphasized with him.  

 

Not anymore.  It's a word I hate to use but he's a cunt 

[methodwriter85]

36 minutes ago, MrsR said:

I do want to say that that wasn't Joe talking at the end, that was Rhys. They both went into the water but only Rhys came out. Does Kate even realize she's with Rhys? And will she object.

I didn't quite have the same read of the scene. I think Joe is still Joe, but he's merged Rhys into his main psyche, hence his cleaned up look and seeing Rhys in his reflection as well as accepting that he loves killing people. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by methodwriter85

[BlueSkies]

Maybe Nadia and Marianne will team up to destroy Joe in Season 5 even though that seems a pretty tall task.

 

I recall at the end of Season 3 right when it ended there was a message You was renewed for a 4th season.  No such for this one.

 

My gut says the 5th season will be the last.  I mean how much further can this go on?  With me it's starting to wear its course.  As indicated by me calling Joe a cunt as my initial reaction to the ending 

[MrsR]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I didn't quite have the same read of the scene. I think Joe is still Joe, but he's merged Rhys into his main psyche, hence his cleaned up look and seeing Rhys in his reflection as well as accepting that he loves killing people. 

Except that after Joe buried the bodyguard he said that that would be the "last body I will bury." Then he goes to the bridge and throws Rhys over and then himself to kill them both. That doesn't sound like some one embracing their murderous side.

I think only Rhys survived. That thing he said at the end about wanting to "be of service", that's a politician talking.

 

[BlueSkies]

19 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Someone on Twitter wrote about how Nadia signifies the last final thread of decency in Joe being ripped away because he didn't protect the "kid" that he always seemed to bond with each season.

Yeah I mean Joe killed her boyfriend.  What the hell??

 

I'd have to go back but yeah most people Joe killed really weren't exactly decent people.  But I mean killing a teenager? 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Nadia made a copy of his flat key I thought. Did she say she made a copy of the underground key?

I thought she meant the key to his apartment too, but Joe found the key back in the book so she definitely put it back and was still able to access the area where Marienne was.

[seacliffsal]

One of Nadia's mistakes was not doing what she thought she should do and call the police.  Instead, she listened to Marianne and then developed what she thought was an amazing plan.  However, she also neglected the importance of really finding out who Joe/Jonathon was.  She made assumptions that she was far more intelligent (which many people do-see every episode of Columbo) and it turned out she wasn't.  I liked her and wanted a different (more positive) outcome for her, but mistakes were made.

As for her telling everything about Joe to put him under scrutiny/suspicion, he thoroughly framed her to the point that it would only appear that she was trying to shift the blame.  Nobody in the show's universe really knows how many people he has murdered.  Even if Marianne told authorities that he claimed to have killed her husband, it would be fairly easy for him to deny it (oh, I only told her that because I was in love with her; she is the one who killed him and is trying to blame me, etc.).

If there is another season, I wonder which (surviving) characters may be back.  

[MrsR]

Basically no one knew Joe was obsessed with/screwing Marienne, except Marienne. So unless she comes forward that death goes unassociated with him.

He was just a coworker as far as anyone else knew. 

No one knows he killed Benji, or Peach. Or that guy who thought he was Will Betelheim. They have who they think killed Bec.  I'm pretty sure Ellie doesn't know he killed Henderson. Love killed Candace, Delilah and Natalie. And fucked up the neighborhood kid and the neighborhood guy who committed suicide in the cage. 

Paco is a loose end. He knows Joe has killed and where the body is.  But he's probably not motivated to give him away.

Dottie and her ex have a vendetta against him. But now they are outclassed financially by the Lockwood machine.

Not many people floating around who have a motive or enough clout to take Joe down.

 

[BlueSkies]

An interesting article from a few years ago.  Penn hates Joe as well

 

https://thetab.com/uk/2021/11/04/penn-badgley-hating-joe-goldberg-you-netflix-227712

 

So my theory is if Penn has any creative control with the show he wanted the character of Joe to get to the point where you can’t defend him anymore? 

[Door County Cherry]

 

On 3/11/2023 at 12:38 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Someone on Twitter wrote about how Nadia signifies the last final thread of decency in Joe being ripped away because he didn't protect the "kid" that he always seemed to bond with each season.

That's only if people thought Joe was decent.  I think this all represents the death, perhaps, of Joe telling himself he's decent and lies to himself.  

But in the end, I'm not convinced he left that side of him behind.  

[Anela]

2 hours ago, LtKelley said:

Did he though? Did he thoroughly frame her?

 

The private investigator hired by the Quinns who went to Tibet/Nepal knew that Joe was obsessed with Marianne. Marianne coming forward, coupled with the cell phone texts between her and Nadia posing as Marianne's friend is circumstantial evidence that something happened to Marianne. So is the missing time when she was captive. 

Joe is no Walter White And I love Walter White but he got caught due to his arrogance and Joe is more arrogant and less genuinely clever. His major mistake right now is that Marianne is alive and that he's never satisfied. Kate is not going to please him forever, we know this because we know the pattern - he finds a woman, obsesses over her, and once he has her, he gets bored.

I thought he alluded to still killing, as well, but maybe not. I was wondering why he would still be killing, when obsession with someone, and the hatred of her social group, is what leads to it. Then the killing of the love interest herself, because she isn't perfect, and/or she finds out who he really is. 

Still, justice for Nadia. He gave her that knife when she was in shock, and I guess Kate approved, to protect the one person she thinks actually loves her. She's awful. I liked her, until that point.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Anela

[seacliffsal]

3 hours ago, LtKelley said:

Did he though? Did he thoroughly frame her?

 

Well, her fingerprints are on the knife that killed her boyfriend and when the police arrived she was still there with the body.  Also, Joe told her that based on an anonymous tip the police will find the box of evidence/souvenirs in her flat.  He may have done even more, but those two factors would be very incriminating.  

[methodwriter85]

54 minutes ago, LtKelley said:

 I know its a tv show so if they want Nadia in prison it will happen, but I've watched enough Criminal Minds to tell you that Joe is a decompensating unsub who is increasingly making mistakes and he really shouldn't be getting away so easily, even if there's money involved. 

I feel like Season 1/Season 2 Joe would have framed Eddie AND Nadia, and it made it look like they were working together. Nadia wouldn't be the first partner to turn on her co-serial killer.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I finished the second half of the season all in one sitting. Overall, it was just such a mediocre season. The first half was just so boring that I didn't end up caring about many of the characters. And the second half definitely had more interesting elements, but the characters all made stupid choices. 

I actually love the idea of Joe finally accepting that he's not a good guy. I like that he finally embraced himself as the villain. However, the way he got to that point was something I did not like. I was fine with the idea of Rhys essentially representing his true self. I didn't like that part of it manifested consciously to other people. The whole "I'm not Joe" stuff should have 100% been left out of the script because it made it look like he had a split personality when that most certainly isn't the case. Rhys represented Joe's true self, wanting to finally emerge. They should have made it more like that.

The idea of Kate worked for me (her being as bad as Joe in many ways and also suppressing that side of her), and the actress did a fine job, but Kate as a character had little to no charisma in general (which I think is important when being with someone as charismatic as Joe) and her and Joe had so little chemistry that their scenes seemed to drag on and on. Plus, her storyline with her father COULD have been super interesting and it was fine at first, but her father ended up being so lackluster. 

She accepts Joe fully, who I assume has told her everything, and will essentially pay for his serial killer/stalking job and it seems like he will continue to get away with it. IF the show is somehow cancelled, this is how it ends, with Joe getting away with it. 

I felt bad for Nadia for being framed by Joe, but....at the same time, she WAS stupid enough to not call the cops and listen to Marienne, the woman who was just starving in a cage for weeks on end (or at least days). 

Marienne better be moving far away from Paris with her daughter. And Joe readily accepting that Marienne is dead-dead when he just experienced the resurrected girlfriend a couple of years back with Candace makes me feel like Marienne should 100% not be staying in Paris, where she knows Joe knows where she is. She still has to live in fear that he'll find out, so she should make the arrangements to go somewhere new and start over.

Honestly, the only character I ended up liking by season's end was Phoebe. Every single person outside of her sucked or was stupid in some capacity. 

[MaggieG]

I'm going to need Marianne to team up with Jenna Ortega's character (forgot her name) to bust Nadia out of jail and take Joe down once and for all. I understand he framed Nadia and he also mentioned that Nadia hasn't said a word in prison but if it's really, thoroughly investigated by the authorities, why would Nadia want to kill Rhys? They didn't know each other, what would her motive be?

I didn't really care for this season. It did get somewhat better with the Rhys reveal and I actually enjoyed Ed Speleers in that role. It doesn't hurt that he's easy on the eyes. But pretty much all the new characters (aside from Phoebe) were terrible. Kate was just blah to me. Is it bad that I chuckled at the way they killed off Adam?

I do hope that if there is a 5th season it's the last season and it's a Joe take down season. Even Penn agrees that he can't keep getting away with it. 

I guess the biggest mystery of the season is what did Joe say to Phoebe that changed her life? They never did reveal that.

[RedInk]

Now I’M confused because I didn’t think Nadia needed a key to access the room where the cage was. Are we sure about that? It was ludicrous that it was so easily accessible, but building the cage itself is equally implausible. Multiple huge, solid pieces going in and out of a tube station & nobody notices.
 

As so many have mentioned, too many people know about Joe for any of this to make a bit of sense. Now that he’s a billionaire, I can see him being too powerful to easily take down, but in the very moment Nadia was arrested, Joe still has nothing and no cleverly-orchestrated cover story. There’s a serial killer on the loose, he’s been living a lie with a fake identity, and his new circle of friends are being offed at an alarming rate. Not to mention the multiple living witnesses. He’s totally vulnerable. If someone I care about were murdered and I was about to take the fall for it, no way I’d think “what’s the use?” Sure, she looks guilty at the scene, but she’d have an attorney at some point. They’ll just overlook her sketchy fake professor with the stolen credentials? The same guy with the dead wife in a famous murder-suicide? He’s more reliable than this meek college student? Nah.

The show relies on every character reacting the opposite way a real person would act, and while I know you have to take some license to make this work, this was the dumbest resolution. 
 

Edited March 13, 2023 by RedInk

[RedInk]

7 minutes ago, LtKelley said:

Theoretically, this is what Kate's money can buy - everyone is paid to overlook all of this because Kate's dad was so rich and powerful. Its essentially the same free pass Joe was supposed to get with Love. 

There's a lot of problems with this. I'm not British but my dad was, and I've watched a lot of Britbox shows and.... Kate's money might buy "official" quiet but she's not exactly royalty. Her dad is American for god sakes and yeah, that makes a difference in favor currying in England. Plus, his new circle of friends that were being offed by the Eat the Rich Killer aka him are likely to have posh friends and family who WILL care about what happened to them and who do have similar if not as much individual power as Kate... but there's more of them and that makes a difference. 

 

Agree with all of this. I also think that the money would make a difference now (although it does stretch credulity), but it just seems that at the time of Nadia’s framing, none of that had been solidified. She couldn’t know they’d become Bill & Melinda Gates. She just sort of went along with whatever people told her. Like “don’t call the police.” Which I mean really came back to bite her in the ass, clever as she thought she had been. 

[bettername2come]

Joe realizing he kills every woman he loves was a good moment, only for him to fuck everything up and get way too much of what he wanted. And is he gonna have a relationship with his son now that's back from the dead?

I'm so glad Marienne's alive, especially since it's basically what I was hoping would happen last ep. And I'm happy Phoebe's doing well. But poor Nadia and Eddie. I'm glad Nadia lived, but Joe framing her is just sad, though I love that she didn't take the bait of framing Eddie for the murder of Rhys.  

Gah, I just want Jenna Ortega's character and Nadia to team up with Marienne and possibly his son's adopted dads who are concerned about losing custody of Henry to take Joe down. I want him in prison. Or dead. Or possibly in a high security mental hospital with lots of therapy. Joe is not that smart or even that good at murder, he should be easy to take down! Like when Marienne was like "he's bigger and crazy!" the other ep, all I could think was "He's 5'9" and frequently zones out, sneak attack him!" 

Taylor Swift's "Anti-hero" was a great song choice. I always want Joe to get his shit together and quit being evil and of course, I know that's not gonna happen. Sigh. It is exhausting. 

[Anela]

2 hours ago, LtKelley said:

To get into the tube station, its unlocked. There was a specific door IN the tube station that had to be unlocked to get to the glass cage. 

 

 

I still don't buy kids or other people, not breaking into it. People break into real homes, all the time. An abandoned station wouldn't bring as much trouble as that could.

My dad is American, and people swooned over him and his accent, when he visited us in England. I don't know about people with money, though. 

[Artsda]

Shocked he has made it full circle and got away with it all. Money and power works.

Nadia was just stupid yes let's break into a murderers house instead of going to police or just pretending nothing at all. 

When he was drowning I thought this was it and then I realized they didn't announce this as final season so I expected him to be alive somehow I thought it was a dream.

So the police boat saved Joe from his suicide? How ironic is that they saved the murderer. 

[Glade]

Poor Eddie, got murdered and took the fall for the 'Eat The Rich' murders, while Nadia went to jail as his accomplice.  I'm glad that Marrienne got to be the final girl, surviving a full 2 seasons (and now that she's happily 'dead' with her daughter will hopefully retain that status), and that we finally left behind the lame trope of Joe having dissociative amnesia personified by an imaginary friend, which is overused in tv.  I'm hoping now we can get a final season that brings back Ellie, Paco, Nadia, Theo, Joe's mother and half brother, and more characters from previous seasons to properly close this out.  Joe is now richer and more powerful than the Quinn's and Theo's dad, so it seems more likely that someone Joe would naively trust (i.e. Ellie and Paco who I imagine he might turn into his projects/proteges now that he can shower them with money) that could be the one to kill him and/or allow the killer to get close enough. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Glade

[LavenderSunset]

I loved the twist of Marienne faking her death!  I did not see that coming.

But how did Joe get out of the hospital and back to his flat in time to catch Nadia? 

I'm glad that Phoebe and Marienne got good endings. (for now?)

Anti-Hero is the perfect song for this guy.  

[KaveDweller]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:55 PM, seacliffsal said:

Well, her fingerprints are on the knife that killed her boyfriend and when the police arrived she was still there with the body.  Also, Joe told her that based on an anonymous tip the police will find the box of evidence/souvenirs in her flat.  He may have done even more, but those two factors would be very incriminating.  

If Nadia had really stabbed Eddie, wouldn't there be blood splattered on her? It seems like that would be a tell that she didn't really do it.

And how fast did Joe plant the box in her apartment? The box was in Joe's apartment when she left and he put the knife in her hand, and the cops were on their way? Joe someone is going to get the box to her place before the police go investigate?

It sounds like Joe said in his voiceover Nadia didn't defend herself at trial and ended up in prison. But wouldn't that be dumb on Nadia's part? She could reach out to Marienne as a backup witness. She had her number in her phone from the fake out with Joe. I'm sure she didn't want to put her in danger, but she is in this spot because she helped her, I think most people would not be a martyr like that.

[Alice Mudgarden]

I waited for part two of this season to come out before starting, and I suspect I may have been better off for it, because I could just keep rolling. I know it was only, what, a month between each part? But still, I think it was more enjoyable overall without having to wait.

That said, while I more or less enjoyed the season, it's probably still my least favorite of the four. I loved Phoebe, and I actually liked Kate nearly the whole time, but the end kinda bummed me out on her. I just wanted her to be smarter than all that somehow. She should have been smarter. And the ending for Nadia (at least so far) was really unsatisfying.

I don't know; I don't see how Joe is even remotely beatable now, since they've set him up as having all this Lockwood money and power. For someone like me, who really would have preferred season three end with Love besting Joe and the show following her, it's kind of like, "Again? But even worse now?" Like, at some point the asshole has to lose, you know? LOSE lose, not temporarily get setback before getting bailed out in an even more untouchable way again kind of lose.

I'm just saying, following Love be batshit and make these really rash, emotionally charged, horrible choices would have been a hoot.

There's something really wonderful about knowing that Penn Badgley hates this dick as much as I do, though, and has since the jump.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I do hope that if there is a 5th season it's the last season and it's a Joe take down season. Even Penn agrees that he can't keep getting away with it. 

I don't see why not. They never caught Jack the Ripper. I'm fine with them leaving it as it is now.

Edited March 14, 2023 by iMonrey

[KaveDweller]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:02 AM, iMonrey said:

I don't see why not. They never caught Jack the Ripper. I'm fine with them leaving it as it is now.

Jack the Ripper was in the 1800s. They didn't have DNA evidence or fingerprints, there weren't security cameras all over the place. It seems like it is much harder to get away with murder in modern times.

At this point the only way he has gotten away with it is that he now has Kate's money and there was a reference to a police bribe. Unfortunately, now that they've established him as having uber rich Kate behind him, and she doesn't care about murder, they can't really turn it around and give him any justice.

[Norma Desmond]

The second half of the season was good. I loved the finale, Joe finally accepting  what he really is - a murderer - and finding the perfect partner in crime and enabler. It would be a perfect series finale, but alas, seem like they are going to churn out one more season out of the cash cow.

 

https://www.glamourmagazine.co.uk/article/you-season-5

[moonshine71]

Oh, jfc, the cage has just catapulted into a entirely new level of ridiculous, which it already was completely. He disassembled and removed that gigantic glass cage, made of huge glass panels, in the middle of London in a matter of hours, by himself and without anyone noticing🙄

[moonshine71]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:36 PM, LtKelley said:

Ok, so here is my problem. 

I figured Rhys was a hallucination when none of the socially snobby people would ever acknowledge him. I thought Joe let Marianne get away too easily. But these aren't flaws in the story, I was still having fun every time Barbara from Call the Midwife said "fuck" and I generally like how Joe only kills rich obnoxious people *except when he doesn't.

But here's my complete "wtf?" disconnect. Once again, its made very very clear that Joe while not struggling to put food on the table, is not a wealthy man and can't use money to make his problems go away. So, who paid for the glass cage in London? Who BUILT the glass cage in London? Who built the glass cage in London IN AN ABANDONED TUBE STATION? That Joe can't possibly have owned? How could no one notice this happening?

In season one I could buy the whole glass cage for rare book storage. In season two, it was in a storage unit, and Home Depot is a thing, and Joe seems good with his hands. In season three, Love had money and it was in a private home so people would just think they were remodeling.  But this season, the glass cage was built in an abandoned tube station that had an obvious and apparently unlocked street access. 

You're more accepting of the cage than me, it was over the top in season 2 (though it did progressively become more so each season). That thing would cost 10's of thousands in just materials, and you aren't finding glass panels like that at Home Depot. And being good with your hands isn't going to make moving the parts/assembling that a one person job, even two people is a huge stretch.