All Episodes Discussion

[vavavoom]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:55 AM, LakeGal said:

The paint expert needed a chair that didn't swivel.  He was moving back and forth and it was distracting.  He also had a very wrinkled suit.

I wish they had done a better job of explaining the timeline.  They had me mixed up on that. 

I was so focused on the wrinkled suit! I kept wondering what kind of material the suit was made out of because I've never seen wrinkles that bad before on a suit!

My other heavy focus was on the male friend with the credit card, the garbage, and the paint! I could have used another hour of this show to get more detail on those 3 things. I guess Cara thought she was being smart with the paint, but that backfired! I need to read the posted articles about the shovel. Interesting tidbit.

[bubbls]

On 6/11/2017 at 10:41 AM, saber5055 said:

I watched last night's ep too, even though I had seen it before. I didn't remember who was the killer, so the ep was "sort of" new to me (LOL!), which either says something about Dateline or my own memory retention. But I did remember that the woman being shot in the leg was fake. I just didn't remember it was the older son until the very end when it was revealed. I do remember being grossed out that the husband had remarried (how on earth did he find a GF much less someone to marry his cheating *ss?) and was living in the house where his wife had been freaking MURDERED. His new wife must be one of those women who send love letters to serial killers in prison.

 

 

I got 3/4 of the way through this episode last night, so I didn't know that about the husband and new wife. Wow. While I don't think I'd have a problem living in a murder home, I'm pretty confident I couldn't do it if it'd been MY spouse murdered or my spouse's spouse. 

The older son being involved came out of left field for me. I can't imagine my parent crying in my ear about their cheating troubles. That's kind of emotionally incestuous. My parents aren't perfect, but they at least act like adults. 

[cooksdelight]

I thought it was weird he stayed in that house also. He'd be looking next door for the rest of his life.

Of course, it's not as bad as the cop who killed his wife, and moved his new wife into the house, and his late wife's mother stood by him and lived there.

[bubbls]

Regarding the trial of Cara in the death of Ann, the defense was stretching to the laughable point in trying to discredit the paint expert basing his (paint drying expert) conclusions on the EMTs' testimony of the paint being wet. Seriously, Defense Dude?? Unless you're blind pretty much everyone can recognize wet vs. dry liquids. The key word is REASONABLE (doubt). Not ridiculous, irrational, laughable, unbelievable doubt. Or maybe that IS how it's phrased in the Defense For Dummies reference book. 

[bubbls]

I just watched an oldie I hadn't seen before on the mysterious death of Kay Sybers and her medical examiner husband's trial. I'm still not clear on what happened, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't have convicted him without the drug evidence that was eventually proven to be inaccurate. And yet he's having an affair, he leaves her that morning with her having chest pain and left arm pain, he says he drew blood then tossed the syringes in the dumpster near the house, he immediately announces there will be no autopsy......it's all pretty suspicious. He died in 2014. 

[cooksdelight]

I guess if you want to kill someone and not be caught or held liable, use succinylcholine.

[saber5055]

Looking forward to tonight's episode. I'll be interested to see if this took place before or after Oscar Pistorius murdered his girlfriend using the same "I thought it was a break-in burglar" alibi. Dateline will have to work hard to make me believe anything other than the guy is a lying murderer, just like Oscar. Although I guess I'll watch anyway.

[partofme]

The episode that just aired, even if I did believe him, he still shot her and belongs in jail.   

[Lizzing]

I have to admit I spent too much time trying to figure out why Lars' brother styled his hair to be standing straight up and how he accomplished that look.

[Minaboo]

I found a court document online regarding Greg Owens's (The Intruder) attempt to have three search warrants declared invalid. The document is the judge's ruling of more than thirty pages and it has lots of info about the evidence in the case. Towards the end it it, it does mention that Rachel Owens had early onset dementia. Greg told his mistress that he was overseas on secret missions when he was with his wife, and he told his wife he was on secret missions when he was with his mistress. You can read it at https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-med-2_15-cr-00055/pdf/USCOURTS-med-2_15-cr-00055-0.pdf

Edited June 17, 2017 by Minaboo
Clarity

[Ohmo]

I agree with the verdict of manslaughter for Lars Itzo.   He admitted to doing it, but I didn't think the prosecution proved premeditation.  Debbie's money all went to her father. Lars also did not come across to me as the brightest guy.  I think he did it and tried to cover for it, but I don't know if I'd say he planned it.

I will say, however, that I did find one element of what Lars said to be plausible.  I live in an older house.  At night, when the house settles and gets cooler, it makes noise.  There have been times that I would have sworn someone was in the house even though I knew for certain that wasn't true.   Of course, that doesn't explain why Lars didn't call out to be certain it wasn't Debbie.

[cooksdelight]

The first thing I do if I hear something in the house, and my other half isn't beside me, is to call out his name. Loudly. I think he intended to kill her to be with the mistress, but his story didn't hold water.

[partofme]

I don't understand how everything going to the father is a defense.   The husband may not have known this.

Edited June 17, 2017 by partofme

[AngelinaMaria]

3 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

The first thing I do if I hear something in the house, and my other half isn't beside me, is to call out his name. Loudly. I think he intended to kill her to be with the mistress, but his story didn't hold water.

I didn't hear any mention of a mistress?? 

[cooksdelight]

I thought there was another woman? Correct me if I'm wrong, somebody.

[Ohmo]

54 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

I thought there was another woman? Correct me if I'm wrong, somebody.

Cooks, I believe you're weaving two cases into one conversation.

Lars Itzo and wife Debbie (Texas) (The Silhouette): No mistress

Greg Owens and wife Rachel (New Hampshire) (The Intruder): Greg had Betsy, the warrior princess mistress

Edited June 18, 2017 by Ohmo

[cooksdelight]

Thank you @Ohmo, I watch too much crime TV. :)

[auntjess]

1 hour ago, cooksdelight said:

Thank you @Ohmo, I watch too much crime TV. :)

I sometimes make a mosaic out of these shows.  Makes quite an interesting story.

[ElleBee]

On 6/16/2017 at 2:52 PM, saber5055 said:

Looking forward to tonight's episode. I'll be interested to see if this took place before or after Oscar Pistorius murdered his girlfriend using the same "I thought it was a break-in burglar" alibi. Dateline will have to work hard to make me believe anything other than the guy is a lying murderer, just like Oscar. Although I guess I'll watch anyway.

Those "break-in burglar" alibis are way too frequent, and really pretty unforgivable. I simply cannot understand, if you wake up disoriented in the middle of the night and you have other people living in your household, that you wouldn't take the most basic of precautions to make sure you weren't shooting a loved one before pulling the trigger. He says it was completely dark--okay--but all he had to do was to take a split second to yell "Debbie?!", she'd answer, and tragedy would be averted. So yeah, I'm very skeptical of this Lars guy's story. Either he's a murderer (most likely) or he's an idiot whose utter stupidity cost someone her life--either way, I'm not shedding any tears over his outcome.

[UsernameFatigue]

With regards to the Lars Itzo case, I kept waiting for Dateline to cover what happened between when Lars apparently heard an intruder, and shot his wife. Does he sleep with a loaded shotgun beside him? If so, why? Did he find and load the shotgun in the dark? How could he see to do that? As per usual with Dateline, they kept going over the same info rather than giving a more complete picture. 

In any case I have no doubt that he meant to kill her. All that fake crying, and no tears. The same when his sister cried - no tears there either. Apparently it is a genetic condition. I am glad he got 15 years, though it isn't enough. 

Edited to add - I agree with the above poster about calling out to your spouse. If I thought I heard an intruder I would turn to my hubby and whisper "Did you hear that?" If he was asleep I would wake him up if I thought there was someone in the house. Makes no sense that Lars would hear multiple voices as he claimed and not wake his wife up to warn her. Lying liar who lies. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by UsernameFatigue

[mythoughtis]

In regards to Lars- he didn't need to shoot in the first place.  A ' stop Who goes there, I have a gun' would have prevented the incident.  Flipping on a light while he trained his gun on the person would have prevented it.  This notion that it's ok to shoot an intruder without even knowing if he's armed isn't ok with me. Most burglars aren't armed. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by mythoughtis

[cooksdelight]

1 minute ago, mythoughtis said:

In regards to Lars- he didn't need to shoot in the first place.  A ' halt. Who goes there, u have a gun' would have prevented the incident.  Flipping on a light while he trained his gun on the person would have prevented it.  This notion that it's ok to shoot an intruder without even knowing if he's armed isn't ok with me. Most burglars aren't armed. 

Exactly!! I had a boyfriend once who used to work crazy hours. He'd sometimes not get to my home until the middle of the night. He had a key, would let himself in and quietly come down the hall. Good thing I don't think like Larz or the poor guy would be dead.

[saber5055]

I missed the Lars episode so researched it online, mostly in the San Antonio paper. Deborah was shot with Lars' SAWED OFF shotgun at a distance of THREE FEET. She was a corporate CEO worth millions; he was a "handyman." His arrest pic shows he had shoulder-length hair. For some reason, his lawyers cut that all off and gave him a short business hairdo for his trial. What, a long-haired hippy carpenter isn't a good look for a defense in a murdered-my-millionaire-wife trial? Lars said after he shot the shotgun, he was going back to get his 9mm handgun when he figured out it was his wife he shot. Well, duh, I can recognize someone I know at three feet even if it is dark. Lars also was naked when police arrived (!!!!!!!!) with no blood or anything on him from "doing CPR" as instructed by the 911 operator, and no gun residue on his hands. WTH? Why not? Or did he change his story from a burglar shot Deborah to he "Oscar Pistorius" shot Deborah? And they were married only two years. How did they meet? And yeah, my guess is Lars thought her life insurance would auto go to him, the husband. Fooled you, I guess. He's eligible for parole in some seven years. He deserved life, or worse, since it's Texas.

[Mama No Life]

What a crew of unlikeable people.  The prosecutor was an ass, his brother was a douche and Lars was a brain-less dick.  No question he did it on purpose, but the prosecutor was so unlikeable that I almost wanted Lars to go free. Not quite, but almost.

His brother looked like a rock'em sock' em robot...

[Court]

I have two animals and 3 kids. When I hear something, I make sure it isn't them. Especially since it is common for them to get up during the night. I don't just start shooting,

 

I can always tell which kid is coming in my room in the dark as well.

[Ohmo]

15 hours ago, auntjess said:

I sometimes make a mosaic out of these shows.  Makes quite an interesting story.

Another thing that I've noticed happening to me.  I'm getting notifications for past posts that I wrote about past cases.  I go to the post to see which case it is that I wrote about, and sometimes it's been so long that the names aren't necessarily enough to remind me of the details of the case.  You know you watch a lot of crime TV when...sort of thing.

[Ohmo]

7 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

This notion that it's ok to shoot an intruder without even knowing if he's armed isn't ok with me. Most burglars aren't armed. 

I agree to a point.  If the intruder remains in the house or comes at you or someone else (armed or not) once a person says "I'm armed and will shoot you." then I think the homeowner has the right to shoot them.  Not kill them, but shoot them.

If an intruder is unarmed and realizes that he or she has been found out and leaves, then yes don't shoot.  However, a person can be a threat without being armed.  Being unarmed does not make someone harmless.  I'm not a gun owner, nor do I wish to shoot anyone, but if I tell you to get out and you don't, I'd consider you a threat to me at that point, unarmed or armed.

[tobeannounced]

I just really need to know what this accomplished woman saw in loser Lars. Was the sex that awesome? That is seriously the only thing I can think of.  I believe he did it on purpose, but I wonder how it all went down. Why was she in the hall? Did they sleep in separate beds and he called her into the room? Did she get up for a glass of water?

[UsernameFatigue]

3 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I missed the Lars episode so researched it online, mostly in the San Antonio paper. Deborah was shot with Lars' SAWED OFF shotgun at a distance of THREE FEET. She was a corporate CEO worth millions; he was a "handyman." His arrest pic shows he had shoulder-length hair. For some reason, his lawyers cut that all off and gave him a short business hairdo for his trial. What, a long-haired hippy carpenter isn't a good look for a defense in a murdered-my-millionaire-wife trial? Lars said after he shot the shotgun, he was going back to get his 9mm handgun when he figured out it was his wife he shot. Well, duh, I can recognize someone I know at three feet even if it is dark. Lars also was naked when police arrived (!!!!!!!!) with no blood or anything on him from "doing CPR" as instructed by the 911 operator, and no gun residue on his hands. WTH? Why not? Or did he change his story from a burglar shot Deborah to he "Oscar Pistorius" shot Deborah? And they were married only two years. How did they meet? And yeah, my guess is Lars thought her life insurance would auto go to him, the husband. Fooled you, I guess. He's eligible for parole in some seven years. He deserved life, or worse, since it's Texas.

I also did some research after posting, and read that the shot gun had jammed, and he had tried to reload it. I know nothing about guns, so does that mean he was trying to take out the ammo and put it back in? (In the dark, apparently). Or did he bring spare ammo with him (in the dark) when he either loaded it in the first place (or picked up the already loaded shot gun)? If he shot someone as close as 3 ft would you not turn on a light after you have shot someone? The person was moaning so he knew he shot someone. Rather than return to the bedroom for another firearm? Which is when, apparently, he realized that his wife was not in bed. Sure.

Saber5055 they met when she hired him to do some work for her. The funny thing is he was driving her nuts then because he was taking so long to finish. Which apparently drove her nuts through their marriage as he would take forever to finish a project. I also read that while she left her investments to her father, she left half of the house to him and the other half to her parents. So it may be that he thought she had left money to him as well. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by UsernameFatigue

[Mama No Life]

Just watching the Saturday night repeat about Anna the Russian who had 35 million boyfriends and friends.  When her friend talked about how she was part of the "glitterati" of Manhattan and Josh made the little sassy sign, I was dying.  With love for him and hatred of the woman.  WHO TALKS LIKE THAT?

Haven't even seen the end and have no idea who did it, just hating on this fake woman. Actually, all of Anna's friends were dramatic and fake. She sure knew how to pick 'em....

[cooksdelight]

Her ex husband killed her, they say. I have my doubts. The police did a crappy job of collecting evidence. Cameras showed she stopped at Taco Bell. Taco Bell wrapper was found in the trash, so either she ate the food or her killer did. They found no food in her stomach during the autopsy, so she was possibly killed later if she ate it. When her ex was on camera in a bar.  They didn't check for fingerprints on the Taco Bell wrapper. There was a Red Bull can that had another person's DNA on it. Way too many questions, for me personally.

[Mama No Life]

I totally agree.  Lots of reasonable doubt there.

[cooksdelight]

Her son thinks he's innocent, and the man is appealing his sentence. I think he's got a good case for an overturned verdict and a retrial. The blood specks in the car could have been there for a long time, as the son testified. Why on earth would he testify for the guy if he had any inkling he'd killed Anna? 

Josh always does a lousy job with these types of cases. He never stays objective, he just wants a good ending to his story.

[bubbls]

I watched the Dateline about the murder of Diane Holik in Austin, Tx., by Patrick Anthony Russo. I'm glad my husband was home because it scared me! Once the police put out a composite sketch of a man seen in the neighborhood they began getting reports by women of him asking to see their houses for sale and frightening them with his creepy behavior. Diane's house was for sale as well, and I immediately figured it was someone pretending to be a buyer. One woman took his license plate number down, and that's how they identified him.  He, of course, is playing the I'm-a-reformed-guy-who-loves-God card. He had his Bible with him when Keith interviewed him in prison. It was obviously being used as a prop otherwise why bring it to the interview? And I was delighted when the female cop took him to task over pretending to be a man of God when he was just a pervert and murderer. 

[saber5055]

Tobeannounced, I have the same questions about why the CEO married Lars, the creepy hippy construction worker. I can't come up with any answers. If I thought a burglar were in my house, first thing I would do is call 911. Don't most people have a phone in their bedroom if not their cell on the bed stand? Only then, if I were a big badass like Lars, would I take my gun and yell out that I had that gun, and use a flashlight to jacklight the intruder. I keep a flashlight in my bedroom in case power goes off. Lars said he saw a flashlight being used by the "burglar." The only problem with me grabbing my gun to go after an intruder, I have a shotgun and a rifle, but both are by my back door, nowhere close to my bedroom. What was Lars so afraid of that he kept a sawed-off in his bedroom? And if it wasn't under his pillow, he'd have to get up to get the gun, during which time you'd think he'd be telling his wife to stay put. And the wife would be saying, "What?" You know, like any of us would IF we were in bed with Lars. The newspaper said there was a dog that was "growling," reinforcing Lars' thought that there was a burglar. Burglars I know (well, the ones I see on crime tv!) don't break into houses that have dogs. Which is why I'm not worried about break ins at my place. Username, thanks for more info on where the money went. Since Lars got convicted, would he still get half the house? Newspaper said the shotgun put a hole the size of a tennis ball in the wife. Geezy pete ...

[rhys]

Just finished watching the Russian Anna story & I agree that the police work sounds/looked shoddy. Also the prima ballerina was most unpleasant as noted above. Plus, she had a very whiny voice.

Curious case. If Bob gets a retrial I hope Dateline follows up on it.

[cooksdelight]

If he does get a retrial and is found not guilty, you can bet Josh will be raking the cops over the coals with that know-it-all attitude of his. As if he knew it all along.

[Mama No Life]

No clue what the hell happened to Heidi.  Suicide seems unlikely but no proof Conrad did it.  

However, how those prosecuting fools could say those incorrect measurements had no bearing is beyond me.  It was very important, no matter what they wanted to believe. 

Conrad owes those fools his freedom.

[rhys]

Thank you! I'm appalled that somehow 12 feet is just a wee bit longer than 1.2 feet. Crikey that was some awful policing.

Did mom have 7 kids & Heidy (gah!) didn't know who her dad was? Odd

[CelticBlackCat]

Since both Heidy and Conrad had been drinking, why couldn't it have been an accident?  Both were angry after an argument.  The gunshot residue evidence was very telling.  None on Conrad, Heidy's right hand had GSR and she was right-handed and the GSW was full contact on her temple.  A lie detector test on Conrad was not revealed?  I know it's not admissible in court but it could have helped as an investigative tool.  I think people are unable to accept that their loved ones commit suicide.  I also think that miscalculation in the home measurements was a huge difference.  The prosecution tried to gloss over that and that didn't fly with me.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

 I think people are unable to accept that their loved ones commit suicide.

They are, so it was only natural that Conrad would say she wouldn't do that at first, and then think about it longer and say, well maybe she would.  Almost anyone can do something like that when drunk and upset, particularly when a loaded gun is handy.  She may have intended to stand there with the gun to her head, to scare him and then pulled the trigger by accident.

The police were awful  They kept saying that Conrad's words at the time were "all over the place."  What do you expect from a drunk, distraught husband who didn't know what had happened?  I thought his off the cuff theory of a gun shot through the window helped prove his innocence because he would have opened the window if he was setting something up. 

The police were just mad because he "threatened" them when they were moving too slowly to help his wife.  They seemed like such morons, they had probably been just standing there looking at her.

I'm getting sick of family members who make up their mind who did it and no amount of, or lack of, evidence will change their minds.  They seem to think the more they dig their heels in the more they're honoring their loved one.  One sister fainted? Please.  Did she think locking up Conrad for the rest of his life would bring her sister back?

[walnutqueen]

I STILL think he did it.

Why yes, I DO believe my lying eyes.  ;-)

[saber5055]

I can't get past the GSR on Heidy's right hand and the gun having been placed against her right temple for the kill shot. I can see Judy's theory that Heidy might have been going to scare Conrad and, being drunk, accidentally shot herself before she could say, "Hey, look at what you are making me do." Oops. People also refuse to accept that loved ones sometimes DO want to kill themselves. The people who are the most outgoing and cheerful can be the ones who are the most deeply depressed with constant suicidal thoughts. Not everyone talks about wanting to kill themselves before they do it. And trust me, I speak from experience on that topic. As for those measurements being so off, someone wasn't paying attention during the trial when 1.2 feet turned into 12 feet. WTH, people? Just goes to show that some police are just people interested in that weekly paycheck. So many aren't very good at it, just like that doof who works in your office basically sucks, too.

[saber5055]

Side note: Interesting that Conrad knows how to pick a lock. Where does one learn that skill? I guess I need to google it, then practice.

[biakbiak]

11 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Side note: Interesting that Conrad knows how to pick a lock. Where does one learn that skill? I guess I need to google it, then practice.

My grandfather taught me. 

[Lizzing]

There's no way that the measurements didn't influence the outcome of the first trial.  But my question is why didn't the first lawyer and/or the defendant notice the discrepancy?  Even if it wasn't until the trial, someone saying it was a 12 foot walk on the stand should have caused Conrad to elbow his lawyer and say, "WTF? There's no way that is right." 

[JudyObscure]

The interior locks in many houses just need a long nail to turn them.  The house I grew up in only needed one of the dinner knives stuck in to pop the lock.  If my brother and I were (play) fighting I had to push all my furniture against the door.  I was frantically doing that one time when I turned around and saw his face at my window.  He had to scale two stories of brick wall with his fingers and toes to do that. He lived to make me scream.

I can't help thinking that one reason Conrad was yelling at the police to do something, was that they were transfixed by a young, pretty naked woman.  The one cop just couldn't help remarking that women rarely took all their clothes off to commit suicide. Goobers.

Of course Walnutqueen could be right, we know how often it's Hubby. I just don't think we can know for sure this time.

[Mama No Life]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

The interior locks in many houses just need a long nail to turn them.  The house I grew up in only needed one of the dinner knives stuck in to pop the lock.  If my brother and I were (play) fighting I had to push all my furniture against the door.  I was frantically doing that one time when I turned around and saw his face at my window.  He had to scale two stories of brick wall with his fingers and toes to do that. He lived to make me scream.

I can't help thinking that one reason Conrad was yelling at the police to do something, was that they were transfixed by a young, pretty naked woman.  The one cop just couldn't help remarking that women rarely took all their clothes off to commit suicide. Goobers.

Of course Walnutqueen could be right, we know how often it's Hubby. I just don't think we can know for sure this time.

Yeah, I assumed that he just meant he popped the lock. The kind of lock you'd find on a bathroom door doesn't really need picking, just a widow's key or a nail.

And yes, the cop commenting on her being naked gave me the creeps. Skeevy to the max.

[saber5055]

If I remember correctly, it was repeated several times that the dead woman was naked. And where are the statistics that show the ratio of naked women vs. clothed women suicides. Thanks for the info on how to "pop a lock." Ha ha. Now I sound like a B Boy/Breaker.

Didn't Conrad say he heard the "pop," and when he turned around, Heidy was "standing there?"

[sinycalone]

I wasn't paying full attention, but wasn't the weapon a revolver not a pistol?  In any case, Heidy shooting herself by accident seems unlikely...she would need to make the decision to take off the safety.