All Episodes Discussion

[Ohmo]

"It wasn't going to happen."

"I'm pretty sure we're going to use that."

I LOVE JOSH!!!!!!!!!

Brent was also going through that $2 million  like it was going out of style if he was visiting his dealer every day.  Susan came from money...not just money, I mean MONEY.  Like others here, I also have family experience when money becomes involved.  It's not pretty, and we're talking nowhere close to the MONEY that Susan came from.   Brent would lose big time in a divorce.

I also hope this encourages people to evaluate suicidal language.  Don't assume that just because someone says it or even attempts it, that describes their behavior forever.  That makes people living with mental illness even more vulnerable to people like Brent.  He was also a psychologist, which means he had the skill set to manipulate Susan, the cops, and his children (which I think is still happening).

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

I also agree with Susan's father. Why on earth would you kill yourself by drinking antifreeze? Susan was a lawyer, and lawyers are often A type personalities. I doubt she would choose that method of suicide without first researching that it would be a slow, painful death. She certainly had other methods available, including I would think her own meds.

Two things that jumped out at me, and always makes me suspicious of the spouse. First of all when the paramedics were working on Susan, he was already telling them that she tried to commit suicide. Who does that? Unless you are trying divert suspicion from yourself, right away. 

The second was when Brent claimed (bragged) that  just a few days earlier that they had sex, and not only that, but Susan had had a trifecta of orgasms. Not likely. I am always suspicious when a husband in a lousy marriage claims that just before his wife died,  they had sex, and fantastic sex at that.  Barf. It is pretty much always a big red flag for me. I love that they included the reaction of the women in I think it was the prosecutor's office. What a pig. 

My mom said the same thing about Brent telling the paramedics about her prior suicide attempt. Yes. Like they're already trying to establish their alibi right then and there. 

And agreed on someone not willingly drinking antifreeze for a method of suicide. I mean, again, is it entirely out of the realm of possibility someone would do that? No. I've seen stories of people committing rather elaborate and/or unusual suicides before, so I could be willing to accept that this could be another example of that, depending on the situation.

But it's not a very likely option, no, because, yeah, generally people who really want to commit suicide kind of want to get it over with, and indeed, her drinking some alcohol and taking some meds would've been a far quicker way to take care of that (to say nothing of how that's also generally a more common way women tend to kill themselves).

Plus, I'm no chemical expert, but I also don't need to Google things like "how to kill yourself with antifreeze", because I don't need to read the results of that search, or watch a true crime show, to know that drinking antifreeze is not a good thing to do to your body. They have the freaking "Do not drink this" label on those cans, for cripes' sakes, and they're there for a rather obvious reason. I would think Susan would already know what drinking antifreeze would do to her body, and wouldn't need to look that up.

No, instead, that looks like the sort of search that you often seen pop up when some criminal is dumb enough to not cover their tracks and clear their search history. Either Brent would've had to pull up the browser history, or he would've had to start typing out the specific searches he claimed Susan was looking up in order for them to pop up in the search bar, and I'm pretty sure, if Susan had been searching that information, she wasn't showing Brent the specific kinds of searches she was making. 

And YES to the whole thing of Brent talking about them having sex, too. I liked that they pointed out how disgusted the other women were with that comment, too. Indeed, that's a very common thing for husbands to say in cases like this, and at best, it makes them look like pervy creeps. At worst, it definitely tends to add to their guilt. 

I also agree that the daughters are being heavily manipulated by their dad - the way they were so adamant in their testifying, the stories they kept sharing about their mom....there was a real anger and bitterness in their voices, and it felt like the kind of anger and bitterness that was the result of both their dad poisoning them against their mom and them still feeling some residual anger and hurt over the time their mom had tried to kill herself (thus making it easier for their dad to manipulate them to his side). It felt like it was easier for them to keep their anger on the parent who isn't there rather than have to confront the fact that the parent who is may have been responsible for her death. 

I do agree that you can't always go by someone's state of mind shortly before a death that may be a suicide. Just because someone seems happy and is making plans, that doesn't mean they aren't planning to kill themselves. There's far too many stories that prove otherwise. It's been said that usually, if someone is happy in the days prior to committing suicide, it's because they've made peace with their decision. And I can also see why some would go to suicide if there had been a prior attempt. 

But people here are also right that just because someone tried to kill themselves before, that doesn't mean that's the case this time, and police should rule out every possibility before just brushing their hands and walking away all, "Well, that's that then, case closed." And in this case especially, there were a lot of red flags about Susan's husband that the police didn't seem to consider  and really should've looked at more deeply. 

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Was it Susan's sister in law (sitting with her brother) who said she had never heard of an Alford plea? Right away I said out loud, "She obviously doesn't watch Dateline!" 

Josh made a similar comment when the family talked about that police officer who apparently was surprised to learn that police often consider the husband among their first suspects. "Clearly he's never watched any episodes of 'Dateline'!" :p. 

[pdlinda]

8 hours ago, TVbitch said:

He clearly wanted her money though. 

 I sensed there was a vast disparity in income between Susan and Brent.  Apparently, her parents were frequently "plugging up the financial gaps" in the family's budget, (with pleasure).  

Even with the Alford Plea, I believe Brent will serve close to the time limit (10 yrs) imposed by the Court.  Even with that, he got a very sweet deal. 

I wonder how the daughters are faring and who is raising them.  I wonder if Susan left a substantial enough estate so the girls' lifestyle might closely approximate what they were accustomed to before her death.

As they have no relationship with their wealthy grandparents, my cynical belief is that as time transpires (the grandparents seemed elderly) they might wish to reconsider a reconciliation.  It would mean A LOT to Susan's parents, and, from a purely financial point of view, all parties would benefit.

[The Closer]

I don't know. The only people I feel sorry for are the daughters. They lived with marital discord, a drug addicted father and a mother with mental health issues. Then they lost their mom. Their dad was convicted for killing their mom. While I don't blame the grandparents at all for wanting justice (and I believe they were right), telling their granddaughter immediately after their mother's death not to say that it was suicide and drawing a hard line on that with them seems like they were more focused on their needs. Sprinkle in the "I pray for reconciliation but our time is limited", while true, is wielding guilt against them. How about just saying, "Our door will always be open to the girls. We love and miss them very much."

The girls are going to have a rough life. Hope they can stay strong and find their way.

[Ohmo]

39 minutes ago, The Closer said:

telling their granddaughter immediately after their mother's death not to say that it was suicide and drawing a hard line on that with them seems like they were more focused on their needs. Sprinkle in the "I pray for reconciliation but our time is limited", while true, is wielding guilt against them.

It's interesting to me that the grandparents are criticized for objecting to the characterization of events as a suicide.  If that holds, then Brent should also be criticized for his immediate response: "She can say whatever she wants."  If the grandparents are seen as focused on their own needs, the same is certainly true of Brent.  I believe that statement was Brent trying to keep the girls under his influence.

While I recognize the situation the girls are in, I don't feel sorry for them.  My mother also lives with mental illness, has been hospitalized more than once, and has made suicidal statements (but never acted on them).  That does not make my father a saint, and the girls are old enough to recognize basic facts.  However, they only recognize those facts about their mother.  Their unwillingness to even entertain the notion of going against their father in any way is problematic, and they're young adults at this point.

There's this human tendency to make things into opposites.  "If Mom has mental illness then Dad must be fantastic."  Not so in their case, just not, and the girls are old enough to start doing some of that work.  I love my father, but he has flaws just like everyone else. They're going to have to come to that realization, and that's only work that they can do.  They can refuse to speak to their grandparents forever, but that still won't change what Brent is.  It's in their interest, both likely financially (because he can't be trusted with money) and as humans to attempt to step back and take a global look at their father.

Having a parent with mental illness is difficult.  It is. but one difficult thing in life does not mean you can avoid all other difficult things.  If they can see their mother's situation in one way, they can also do the same with their father's life. As young children, they didn't have agency, but they do now, and that agency involves critical thinking about both parents.

[iMonrey]

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Didn't they say that they thought the husband put the antifreeze in her drink? They were drinking that night, so it would have been easy enough. 

Wouldn't she have tasted it though? They said she had a lethal amount in her system, and you can smell that stuff a mile away. I can't imagine what kind of drink would disguise the taste of that.

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Why on earth would you kill yourself by drinking antifreeze? 

You cannot apply logic to someone suffering from mental illness and contemplating suicide. Why on earth would you kill yourself, period?

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First of all when the paramedics were working on Susan, he was already telling them that she tried to commit suicide. Who does that?

Anyone who calls 911 to report a suicide attempt, that's who. 

None of that stuff makes Brent seem guilty to me. All the other stuff though - yeah.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Wouldn't she have tasted it though? They said she had a lethal amount in her system, and you can smell that stuff a mile away. I can't imagine what kind of drink would disguise the taste of that.

This isn't the first Dateline episode we've seen where antifreeze has been involved, so it has been used before---mixed in drinks or food IIRC.  I also recall people (LEOs or lawyers interviewed, etc) who have said antifteeze has a sweet taste.  If it were mixed in a margarita, I could see him passing it off.  Plus, there are actual drinks (like a Manhattan) that taste like gasoline to me, yet people drink them.

In terms of smells, there are alcohols (like grappa) with very strong smells.  People drink that, too.  We don't know what either of them regularly drank except for a margarita.  Within the world of alcohol, there's room for someone to be able to explain away antifreeze if they were motivated to do so.  People have done so before because people have died from antifreeze poisoning.

[BusyOctober]

4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This isn't the first Dateline episode we've seen where antifreeze has been involved, so it has been used before---mixed in drinks or food IIRC.  I also recall people (LEOs or lawyers interviewed, etc) who have said antifteeze has a sweet taste.  If it were mixed in a margarita, I could see him passing it off.  Plus, there are actual drinks (like a Manhattan) that taste like gasoline to me, yet people drink them.

In terms of smells, there are alcohols (like grappa) with very strong smells.  People drink that, too.  We don't know what either of them regularly drank except for a margarita.  Within the world of alcohol, there's room for someone to be able to explain away antifreeze if they were motivated to do so.  People have done so before because people have died from antifreeze poisoning.

My husband is a heavy equipment mechanic.  The other day he was working on a machine and some antifreeze splashed up and landed on his lip.  He licked it as a reflex and said it tasted god-awful!  Very much a strong chemical, acidic, bitter flavor.  He said he had to use several glasses of water and some mouthwash and a few mints to get rid of the taste. Definitely not sweet like Dateline and ID Channel have described it.  I think the manufacturers have began to put in additives to make it smell/ taste bad because to many murderers and potential murderers have tried mixing antifreeze with soda, tea, alcohol.

[12catcrazy]

19 hours ago, BusyOctober said:

My husband is a heavy equipment mechanic.  The other day he was working on a machine and some antifreeze splashed up and landed on his lip.  He licked it as a reflex and said it tasted god-awful!  Very much a strong chemical, acidic, bitter flavor.  He said he had to use several glasses of water and some mouthwash and a few mints to get rid of the taste. Definitely not sweet like Dateline and ID Channel have described it.  I think the manufacturers have began to put in additives to make it smell/ taste bad because to many murderers and potential murderers have tried mixing antifreeze with soda, tea, alcohol.

Animals would also lap up antifreeze (and it would kill them).  I think that was also a reason that the stuff has been made to be unpalatable.  

And no doubt in my mind that Brent killed his wife.  Unfortunately, I think that his daughters were brainwashed against their mother.  The older one is very much a Daddy's girl.  Maybe Brent hid the crazy better in front of the kids, and was all "Look at your Mother!  She's totally nuts!".  Let me say that I come from an ahem, "interesting" background where my parents waged a 40 year war against each other  (staying married) and my sister and I got put in the middle a lot.   I wish those kids luck - and the money to pay for a good therapist, because they're going to need it.  

And sad to say, if it weren't for the victim's very deep pocketed and persistent parents, Brent would have gotten away with murder.  Seems as if there are a lot of lazy cops and half-assed autopsy folks out there.  Makes you wonder how many other people get away with murder.  You just have to hope that there will be justice done in one way or the other in the end.  

[The Closer]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, Ohmo said:

It's interesting to me that the grandparents are criticized for objecting to the characterization of events as a suicide.  If that holds, then Brent should also be criticized for his immediate response: "She can say whatever she wants."  If the grandparents are seen as focused on their own needs, the same is certainly true of Brent.  I believe that statement was Brent trying to keep the girls under his influence.

I guess I expect more from the people who didn't actually commit the murder? These were  people who should be focused on their well-being of their granddaughters who were children at the time. Maybe in the days immediately after the loss of their mother wasn't the time to try and take a stand. 

On 10/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, Ohmo said:

Their unwillingness to even entertain the notion of going against their father in any way is problematic, and they're young adults at this point.

Of course they don't entertain another notion. The only person they have left in their lives is their father. Right after the murder, their grandparents put them in a position as children to decide which side they were going to be on by controlling how they talked about what had happened, instead of focusing on just supporting them and letting them come to terms with things on their own timeline. Now they want to guilt them over how they won't be around forever.

I get people not feeling sorry for the daughters. The one who got most of the airtime was surly but she's a teenager who had lost her mother and was being questioned about something that would cause her to now lose her father. I find compassion to that the only response for me personally.

[mythoughtis]

At the beginning of the Winters’ case, I thought her parents were grieving and unreasonable.  many people give away their loved ones clothing etc  in the days  after the  funeral.  Suicide was a reasonable belief based upon things she has said and done since the earlier separation from her husband.  Why wouldn’t her husband travel to their memorial for her? And so forth

However the facts of the case then convinced me.  His lying then convinced me.

so the Winters got justice… but  they lost their grandchildren.  It will be decades before those girls can accept the  truth. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Ohmo]

52 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

However the facts of the case then convinced me.  His lying then convinced me.

I liked your post based on your statement that the facts of the case convinced you.  However, I was pretty convinced of his guilt.  Another thing that was a red flag was him telling them not to come to the hospital.  She was their child.  Him telling her parents not to come to her...highly suspicious, in my opinion.

[LuvMyShows]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:55 PM, izabella said:

I don't think he gets to keep the life insurance after he's convicted of murdering her.  At least, I hope not!   I can't imagine an insurance company not suing to get that money back.

This got me curious, and I tried to find out what happens if a life insurance policy has already paid out and then the beneficiary is found to have committed the murder.  I could not find anything at all to address that.  Everything was about the murder-by-beneficiary being known before the payout occurs.

19 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Another thing that was a red flag was him telling them not to come to the hospital.  She was their child.  Him telling her parents not to come to her...highly suspicious, in my opinion.

In spite of listening to their explanation, I couldn't understand why they went along with him on that.  Just go anyway.

[Kiss my mutt]

I was under the impression that life insurance payouts were denied if suicide was found to be the cause of death. Has that changed?

[Irlandesa]

3 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I was under the impression that life insurance payouts were denied if suicide was found to be the cause of death. Has that changed?

I'm not an expert but I'm of the understanding that there are time limits to them.  If you take out a policy and kill yourself within a certain time period (let's say within 5 years) then the policy doesn't pay out.  But once the policy is old enough, then it will pay out even on a suicide.

[GiandujaPie]

I just watched The Sisterhood last night. I agree with all who have already said Bob is a disgusting POS and it seems clear he preyed on women who were desperate for a man. Stacy clearly was settling as she just desperately wanted to get married and start having kids. I know most of us have friends or know of other women who have done this. 

I just didn't understand why Stacy's family and friends were originally shown saying that there was no reason for Stacy to have just died as she was a healthy woman only in her 40s. But that was clearly not true. She had numerous health problems and had already had accidental falls in the last several months. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that one of her health issues could have been the cause of her death or led to her having a fatal accidental fall. But given her history with Bob, that would have been the reason for the suspicion, not that she was an otherwise healthy woman. 

There were so many things botched in the investigation or lack of investigation that I'm a little surprised that the jury convicted as quickly as they did. I think there was just so much evidence of Bob being a despicable person that the jury convicted despite there being some reasonable doubt. I think he did it but if he wasn't such a disgusting person, if the jury had wanted to, they could have relied on the fact that there was essentially no investigation and that 3 different pathologists said it was inconclusive, to give him a pass and say there was some reasonable doubt. 

[iMonrey]

A Walk in the Rain. I accidentally spoiled this one by Googling the case just to see how Sonya spelled her name and right there in the headline was the killer, a cop named Matt. So, mystery solved. 

I think more and more my distrust of cops can be directly traced back to watching Dateline. We've seen so many bad ones. How many times have we heard the same story about an abusive cop who always warned his victim that nobody would believe them because he was a cop? There is something very particular about being a cop that attracts a specific personality type.

[badgerwoman]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:59 PM, Irlandesa said:

I'm not an expert but I'm of the understanding that there are time limits to them.  If you take out a policy and kill yourself within a certain time period (let's say within 5 years) then the policy doesn't pay out.  But once the policy is old enough, then it will pay out even on a suicide.

two years, the suicide clause is generally two years industry one.  It may be 1 in some cases , but rarely more than 2.  

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think more and more my distrust of cops can be directly traced back to watching Dateline. We've seen so many bad ones. How many times have we heard the same story about an abusive cop who always warned his victim that nobody would believe them because he was a cop? There is something very particular about being a cop that attracts a specific personality type.

Seriously, not to get political here, but stories like this are a prime example of what people are complaining about when it comes to issues with our policing system in this country. I don't get why that's so hard for some people to understand. How many more stories like this do people need to hear before they get it? 

So very sad, this story. Poor Sonya. I feel for her friend, too, the guilt she's dealing with. Josh is right that she needn't blame herself, but that's easier said than done in a situation like this, I'd imagine :(. 

On a lighter note, it was neat to get to see some of Alaska during this story. So wild to think about how people have to fly in order to get around a good portion of that state. And then the fact that on the night Sonya disappeared, the sun had just barely set at around midnight. That would be such a weird thing to adjust to, though if you're born and raised there, obviously, you'd be used to it. 

But that just added to the haunting nature of what happened to Sonya, too, because even though it was late at night, it wasn't pitch dark, like it would be in other states. 

[iMonrey]

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On a lighter note, it was neat to get to see some of Alaska during this story.

When they were driving around Nome I spotted a Subway. I guess they're everywhere.

Is Josh Mankiewicz hosting all of the episodes this season? He's the only one we've seen so far. 

[TVbitch]

What a juxtaposition with some of law enforcement not seeming to give a crap who is riding around in their vehicles or going into the evidence locker or acting inappropriate while on duty and other law enforcement combing back through the case file and sifting through ashes to get any scrap of evidence. That dude looked so guilty, I can't believe the first jury dead-locked. 

If I get pulled over by a single male cop in an isolated area, I hope I have the courage to tell him he can follow me to the nearest populated parking lot. 

[GiandujaPie]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:58 AM, iMonrey said:

"A Cool Desert Morning" - the fact that the husband took the alford plea pretty much convinces me of his guilt. Otherwise, I had my doubts. Susan had a history of mental illness and a previous suicide attempt. We've all seen the families who refuse to believe their loved one committed suicide, the Winters family seemed to fit that bill. Just because the last time they saw her she seemed fine doesn't mean she was incapable of harming herself. And how do you force someone to drink that much anti-freeze?

What was really compelling to me was the daughter, who was so insistent that her mother committed suicide. Unlike the parents or the brother, the daughter lived with her mother day in and day out and would have been the best judge of her mental state at the time of her death. 

I don't know. I was really on the fence until the end because I thought the episode skewed heavily towards the Winters' POV, and some of the "experts" seemed like crackpots. 

I agree with most of what you said. This episode was obviously told from the Winters's family POV as Brent and no one in his family chose to participate and defend him. I know Brent was an arrogant SOB but I bet if we had heard from him or his family or friends, they would have said that Susan's family lorded their considerable wealth over him. They just seemed like the type of people who would act like their wealth made them better people.

I agree with others who have also said that the family could have shown a little more compassion and grace towards their granddaughters. It's not surprising that their minor daughters would chosen to take their father's side so that they wouldn't lose both parents. Teenage girls can also have complicated relationships with their mothers, and Susan may have been a good mother but she also seemed volatile and unstable due to her depression and that may have caused a lot of conflict with the girls. 

I did wonder why Susan chose to leave her share of the family business directly to Brent. Why didn't she arrange to have her shares placed in a trust for her daughters? 

I admit, I did not like the Winters family. I think it's more likely than not that Brent did kill their daughter but they had an arrogance too that probably contributed to the dysfunction in their daughter's marriage. 

[pigs-in-space]

The Sonya case was heartbreaking. What a piece of shit that cop was. And stupid too. That car/letter stunt was so idiotic. Not surprised his mostly white church rallied around him.

And forgive me if I missed the discussion, but has anyone watched the Dateline: The Last Day spin-off? I find the “last day” framing a bit redundant and unnecessary  but it’s covered some interesting cases so far.

The Nathan Paet case really stuck with me, thanks to the awful wife and her claims that she didn’t want the murder to happen (even though she clearly went along with the plan). The Amy Allen case was also a stand out for me. The forensic evidence in that one was really interesting and the husband came off as so phoney with all his talk of doing so much to protect his family’s physical and mental health. You eat vegetables and do yoga. Groundbreaking. 🙄 

[rlc]

“Righteous Obsession”- I’m just going to say it, because somebody has to: was Angel much, much, much, much much better looking in person? None of this makes sense.

The ‘preacher’ and his wife creeped me out.

[iMonrey]

Righteous Obsession - nobody "deserves" to be murdered, but it seems like Milton lived a life playing with fire. He cheated on his first wife, which resulted in an illegitimate daughter. He definitely "bought" his second wife, showering her with jewelry and other gifts to keep her happy. I noticed neither of his daughters wanted to participate in the story, and they didn't even say their names. Felt sorry for the son more than the victim, somehow.

What I didn't understand is why Isaac's wife Darlene wasn't charged as a co-conspirator or accessory after the fact. She's on tape admitting she knew the whole thing.

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was Angel much, much, much, much much better looking in person?

She was pretty enough in a lot of those photos when she was fixed up, but by the time she was in prison for two years and didn't have access to bleach, make-up and possibly a gym, she looked pretty rough.

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The ‘preacher’ and his wife creeped me out.

It bothered me that he "struggled" with the decision of whether or not to turn Isaac in. The whole story was proof positive that being in a church doesn't make you a good person any more than being in a garage makes you a car.

[Irlandesa]

36 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What I didn't understand is why Isaac's wife Darlene wasn't charged as a co-conspirator or accessory after the fact. She's on tape admitting she knew the whole thing.

Because I don't believe she did anything to help cover it up.  Oh, maybe she lied about his alibi but it probably wouldn't be worth it to try to charge her with that.  Plus, she was right.  He confessed to her after-the-fact but they're married.  Spousal privilege is attached.

I am surprised they didn't try the "spiritual advisor" take as a reason what he shared with the preacher should be confidential.

It sounds like Angel was a good manipulator.  It's not always about looks (although she was probably pretty enough) but sometimes how you make the other person feel. She played the innocent victim so horny for her therapist and it worked. 

[Annber03]

6 hours ago, rlc said:

“Righteous Obsession”- I’m just going to say it, because somebody has to: was Angel much, much, much, much much better looking in person? None of this makes sense.

Right? She was going on in her interview with detectives about how Milton got so jealous because of all the interest men kept showing in her, and she was talking about how she and Milton had sex all the time, and so on, and I was like, "Boy, we sure think highly of ourselves, don't we?" Milton's niece talked about how Angel constantly went on about how she was the prettiest woman in the world and, yeah, based off her behavior here, I could believe that. She didn't seem like THAT much of a knockout to me that guys would need to fall over themselves to do anything for her, but lord knows this isn't the first time I've seen guys go to these kinds of lengths for a woman, only for me to look at said woman and go, "...why?"

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Righteous Obsession - nobody "deserves" to be murdered, but it seems like Milton lived a life playing with fire. He cheated on his first wife, which resulted in an illegitimate daughter. He definitely "bought" his second wife, showering her with jewelry and other gifts to keep her happy. I noticed neither of his daughters wanted to participate in the story, and they didn't even say their names. Felt sorry for the son more than the victim, somehow.

I was amused at how everyone kept talking about how great a guy he was - maybe he was great in other areas of his life,, but in terms of relationships, he didn't seem like the greatest husband material. When he made that big to do about how every man deserves a woman like Angel, my mom was like, "I wonder how his ex-wife feels reading that message?" 

But seriously, yeah, he's getting all jealous of Angel getting attention from men and having an affair and it's like, who are you to talk, buddy? 

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It bothered me that he "struggled" with the decision of whether or not to turn Isaac in. The whole story was proof positive that being in a church doesn't make you a good person any more than being in a garage makes you a car.

LOL, same. I mean, I get that he knew this kid and all, but he committed murder. He knows he committed murder. Tell the police. I noticed, too, they kept making mention of this kid being the preacher's "success story" - seemed more like the preacher was more concerned about how this news getting out would affect his image as a preacher rather than a genuine struggle over whether or not to do the right thing.

And Isaac was a piece of work, too. He tells his preacher that he knew he did something horrible, but he can't turn himself in, because he'll be punished for his crimes. Because apparently in his world, being a Christian means not having to take responsibility for one's actions. 

And then he and Angel were exchanging Bible verses in prison and still sneaking conversations back and forth with each other. I just.... I did have to laugh at how Isaac and Angel's little relationship didn't last long after that, though, and Isaac's wife, who was all, "I'll stand by you no matter what" in that phone call (which was also super weird), ultimately divorced him, because she apparently decided she wasn't interested in entertaining his "wanting to have my cake and eat it, too" life of still wanting to be with Angel while also still married to Darlene. So, basically, he went to all these lengths for a woman and spilled his guts to those close to him, hoping they'd protect him, and in the end he lost both his mistress and his wife, he's sitting in jail for murder, and he was betrayed by the person he confided in. Good job, dude! Hope it was worth it. 

On the plus side, um, Elizabeth City looks like a pretty town :). 

[TVbitch]

Angel during interrogation: Milton thought I was so beautiful I could have any guy I wanted. He got jealous of guys coming into the shop just because I was there. 

Denis to investigator: So there were men who came to the shop just to see Angel, because she's a good looking woman. 

Investigator: um ... ... according to Angel.  

❤️

[amarante]

12 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Angel during interrogation: Milton thought I was so beautiful I could have any guy I wanted. He got jealous of guys coming into the shop just because I was there. 

Denis to investigator: So there were men who came to the shop just to see Angel, because she's a good looking woman. 

Investigator: um ... ... according to Angel.  

❤️

As soon as she talked about them having sex twice a day every day I knew she was involved.

This seems to be a classic ploy when wives kill their husbands. There is a Forensic File in which the wife shot the husband in the middle of the night and also mentioned they had sex but that his snoring kept her awake which is why she was sleeping in the other bedroom and hadn't heard the shots. 🤣🤣

While some of the women who have lured men into killing on their behalf aren't drop dead gorgeous, I think most of them are above average looks as compared to what other women in their locations probably look like - these generally aren't areas in which there are lots of trophy type wives. But also once you have a basic level of "attractiveness" it is much more about the ability to manipulate because you are sociopathic and finding someone whose psychological vulnerability you recognize and play upon.

I would suspect that the predator women attempt to lure other men into their trap who don't take the bait and then there is the perfect storm of predator and vulnerable prey. I would think the analogy are women who have a pattern of being with men who are abusive or control freaks - many women would break off at the first red flag of inappropriate abuse or jealousy not to mention if there was ever a hint of physical abuse. And yet there are women who ignore these signs and wind up in abusive relationships or having their deaths or mysterious disappearances on Deadline. 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, amarante said:

As soon as she talked about them having sex twice a day every day I knew she was involved.

This seems to be a classic ploy when wives kill their husbands. There is a Forensic File in which the wife shot the husband in the middle of the night and also mentioned they had sex but that his snoring kept her awake which is why she was sleeping in the other bedroom and hadn't heard the shots. 🤣🤣

The same thing happens with a lot of husbands in these stories, too. They always make a point of talking about how they'd had sex with their wives not long prior to said wife's death. Usually in their case, though, it's to help potentially explain any DNA that might be found on the woman's body, or it's the guy trying to show off what a real stud he is, which, if you're a truly grieving husband, is not the main thing one would think you'd want people to be focusing on in that moment. 

[Guest]

Just for conversation purposes, Eric (I think that was his name) was not an ordained minister or preacher.  He was a youth counselor for the church.  

I don’t know if this makes his actions better or worse but because he was not clergy the confidentiality clause does not work here and that’s probably why his defense did not pull that card 

For whatever it’s worth I would not have waited three days to contact police. I would have called before the physical therapist pulled out of the driveway.  I am also amazed youth counselors wife did not offer her opinion to youth counselor.  I like to think of my husband and me as a team and even if he doesn’t take my advice, he knows where I stand. But that’s us.  Not everything works for everybody. 
 

[GiandujaPie]

Angel was definitely a piece of work. You could tell she was involved because they didn't interview her at the beginning or any of her family members and also by the types of photos of her they were showing. It was obvious she thought highly of herself by the pouty-lip selfies she took of herself LOL. 

It always cracks me up that at the beginning, they always have family and friends of the victim talk about what a great person he/she was and then we find out that they were cheaters/scammers or whatever. I was surprised that Milton bought his wife all that jewelry and lived in a nice subdivision when I saw what kind of business he owned. It didn't seem like it could have made that much money when it was just an "antiques" store that turned into a pawn shop. 

Glad that "pastor" ended up doing the right thing, but yeah I wouldn't have had any doubt about turning Isaac in. And I also find it absolutely hypocritical that a so-called Christian would think he should be able to not be held accountable for his crime. Glad he eventually came to his sense regarding Angel. 

[izabella]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:15 AM, GiandujaPie said:

Glad that "pastor" ended up doing the right thing, but yeah I wouldn't have had any doubt about turning Isaac in. And I also find it absolutely hypocritical that a so-called Christian would think he should be able to not be held accountable for his crime. Glad he eventually came to his sense regarding Angel. 

That "pastor" should have been concerned he might be next.  The murderer already murdered someone; who's to say he wouldn't do it again?

[iMonrey]

Fire & Ice - I'm glad they didn't waste two hours on this one. And here I was worried they would eventually run out of husbands who murdered their wives when on the brink of a divorce and custody hearing. Silly me! Felt sorry for their son, he of the unfortunate haircut.

[amarante]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Fire & Ice - I'm glad they didn't waste two hours on this one. And here I was worried they would eventually run out of husbands who murdered their wives when on the brink of a divorce and custody hearing. Silly me! Felt sorry for their son, he of the unfortunate haircut.

And of course there is the same scenario in which the wife kills the husband - either a custody battle or some form of greed.

I wonder how they managed to hide this level of sociopathic thinking until they murdered someone - although some of them have been managed to get away with multiple dead spouses until they are finally caught.

I have never been angry enough to kill someone but I can understand how a relatively normal person would have a break - which is when guns in a home are a direct cause since white heat anger - poor impulse control - a loaded gun - and a person dead - another person in jail - children having horrendous trauma and extended family (siblings, parents) having to deal with grief on both sides - killer and victim.

But you really need to have a level of sociopathy to plot to kill your spouse over an extended period of time. 

I wonder if the mask of sanity ever slips and is revealed to the spouse. 

[mythoughtis]

On 10/23/2022 at 11:06 AM, PsychoKlown said:

Just for conversation purposes, Eric (I think that was his name) was not an ordained minister or preacher.  He was a youth counselor for the church.  

I don’t know if this makes his actions better or worse but because he was not clergy the confidentiality clause does not work here and that’s probably why his defense did not pull that card 

For whatever it’s worth I would not have waited three days to contact police. I would have called before the physical therapist pulled out of the driveway.  I am also amazed youth counselors wife did not offer her opinion to youth counselor.  I like to think of my husband and me as a team and even if he doesn’t take my advice, he knows where I stand. But that’s us.  Not everything works for everybody. 
 

I’d have been  calling the police as soon as he left the driveway too.  As you said, he was not ordained, just a church member who led a youth group.  I’m not sure I’d have had the courage to actually call him with the police sitting there, but I still think he didn’t break any confidentiality or friendship rules by doing so.  
I was floored by the wife who stood by Isaac after he confessed murder and an affair to her.  I am fairly confident I’d be calling the police on my own husband if he confessed murdering someone to me.   I noticed that her support was withdrawn after he got arrested.  

[mythoughtis]

Fire and Ice - I found the tidbit about the duplicate passport interesting. I would have thought that the agency  confiscating a passport would have to notify the passport agency of that so that a duplicate would not be issued until the passport was no longer confiscated.  
Also- just how did this family get so much money that both brothers had second homes in Florida? 
It was so sad that he did not bring the boys to her funeral. Not sure of their ages at the time to know if they were in a position to get there otherwise, or if they were even told it was happening. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Lsk02]

I admit to knowing next to nothing about investigating crimes and the legality of what is allowed, but it felt like the Canadian police were able to do a lot more with this investigation than we typically see from similar cases on this show. The phone wire tapping, multiple undercover agents offering various solutions (the one dying of cancer in a wheelchair really stuck out to me), recording conversations in an ice shack, placing a recording device on a suspect without him being aware, etc. Do they have more resources, or more of a legal avenue to do all of this? 

[TVbitch]

The cops made it sound like if the husband made it to Florida, they would forever lose their chance to get him. Wouldn't U.S. authorities fully cooperate with Canada in something like this? 

Wow, a rare occurrence of the child only believing his dad was innocent until the evidence was presented and then accepting he was guilty. I wonder where the other son was and how he feels.  

[UsernameFatigue]

6 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

I admit to knowing next to nothing about investigating crimes and the legality of what is allowed, but it felt like the Canadian police were able to do a lot more with this investigation than we typically see from similar cases on this show. The phone wire tapping, multiple undercover agents offering various solutions (the one dying of cancer in a wheelchair really stuck out to me), recording conversations in an ice shack, placing a recording device on a suspect without him being aware, etc. Do they have more resources, or more of a legal avenue to do all of this? 

More legal avenues. Though the Supreme Court did limit some of the scope of these investigations in 2014, they are still ongoing and legal. They are usually referred to as "Mr Big" stings, where the suspect is befriended by one or more undercover police officers, and (usually) eventually told they can make a ton of money by working for a crime boss, but must come clean about any past illegal doings. And of course murders are popular as the crime boss wants to make sure the prospective employee is up for anything.

It has been used successfully in several cases even in the last several years where the police had suspicions but not enough evidence. One case that comes to mind is a six year old girl who was tortured and murdered by her father and step mother. 

Like we often joke that some of these perps must not watch Dateline or they would know what not to do, some Canadian criminals must not follow Canadian cases. If I were to murder someone, I would know to be suspicious if suddenly a stranger befriended me. And certainly if a "crime boss" wanted to bring me into his organization. 

I also didn't understand why the authorities were not notified that husband had had his passport confiscated. Also didn't understand why if he had gone to Florida, he could not have been returned to Canada?

Thank goodness the son was not one of those kids who believe their parent at any cost. Hopefully the other son is the same, and just didn't want to appear on camera. 

[rlc]

“Under a Halloween Moon” rerun.
 

A clown, a cowboy, a gangster, a construction worker, and a penguin walk into a bar. Worst Village People cover band ever.

[JudyObscure]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:53 AM, iMonrey said:

The whole story was proof positive that being in a church doesn't make you a good person any more than being in a garage makes you a car.

(back to Righteous Obsession)

Are there people in the world who think being a Christian makes you a good person?  Every single time someone I know finds out I'm a Christian they always tell me how shocked they  are to find out I'm a complete nutwing who  hates gay people and believes Santa Claus is real.  Then they start sifting through every word I ever said and everything I ever did looking for the sure fire proof that I'm a hypocrite, (doesn't take long) because to some people saying you believe in Christ is the same thing as saying you're just like him.  

At first I actually had a tiny bit of sympathy for the youth "pastor" for hesitating to turn in someone who had thought he was speaking to him in priest/confessional sort of way,--  then I saw that farm. 

Christian, devil worshipper, or veggie eating yoga teacher -- keeping cows in those stalls is plain wicked.  The farmers feed the front end and milk the back end and never ever let them move.  When they have calves, the calf is immediately taken away and the mother has to listen to it cry for her for days. No wonder his wife seemed like she was on the edge of hysteria the whole time.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Are there people in the world who think being a Christian makes you a good person?

My point was that the pastor had convinced himself that because Isaac was "following the Lord" he must have been a good, honorable person. In other words he was disinclined to believe he'd ever murder someone. And hesitant to turn him in.

More broadly, over the course of many Datelines episodes, how many times have we heard the neighbors tell us that the murderer next door went to church every Sunday? Thus the least likely to have murdered someone.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

My point was that the pastor had convinced himself that because Isaac was "following the Lord" he must have been a good, honorable person. In other words he was disinclined to believe he'd ever murder someone. And hesitant to turn him in.

More broadly, over the course of many Datelines episodes, how many times have we heard the neighbors tell us that the murderer next door went to church every Sunday? Thus the least likely to have murdered someone.

This. Being a Christian in and of itself is fine, nothing wrong with that. But people constantly still keep making the assumptions you make here, and the rest of us just don't understand how, in this day and age, those assumptions still continue to hold, with all the stories to the contrary that are out there. It'd be an interesting twist to hear somebody state that someone was trustworthy because they didn't go to church/were an atheist or agnostic, or because they were some faith other than Christian, or whatever. 

[JudyObscure]

Look how often we start the show with someone saying they never expected a murder to happen in their neighborhood because the houses were fairly upscale and the lawns were tidy (never mind the squalor inside that people like Angel were living in.)  Then there are always family and friends who say so-and-so would never ever commit murder because they know him and he's such a nice guy. Everyone seemed to love Milton simply because he was a local "business" man.

I suppose there are people who think those who follow their own religion or other group are going to be more trustworthy, just like my neighbors who put political signs all over their front yard and assume the rest of us on this street are in agreement.  I've heard Korean friends say they never divorce and Jewish friends say Jewish men are always faithful to their wives and there is some truth in their claims compared with other groups.  I think it's probably natural to trust your own group that you see every week, whether it's your fellow masons or members of your poker group.

I just feel like the show always likes to point out the Christians gone wrong when they never would dream of pointing out that the first suspect who argued in the antique store never went to church.

[TVbitch]

The Sunday night football intro this week was Keith Mo doing a Dateline spoof about football. How fun for him! 

[GiandujaPie]

Fire and Ice - I think it was obvious from the beginning that the husband had something to do with it. 

I think if Graham hadn't gone overboard with staging the murder as a drug overdose, he might have gotten away with it. Leaving her body with a tourniquet and syringe nearby just seemed too much for a hockey mom who didn't have a known substance abuse problem. It would have raised immediate red flags. 

I'm impressed that the Canadian police had so many resources to concoct phony coverup scams to try to get the suspects to confess. I'm wondering if that ploy has ever been done in the US and have it actually work? Or would lawyers here argue entrapment? LOL although can you really be entrapped to confess to something if you didn't actually do it? 

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, TVbitch said:

The Sunday night football intro this week was Keith Mo doing a Dateline spoof about football. How fun for him! 

LOL, nice. If he narrated football games, I'd probably be more interested in them :p. 

[iMonrey]

Should I bother watching a two hour update on the South Caroline Murdaugh murder case? What "new developments" were there?

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Should I bother watching a two hour update on the South Caroline Murdaugh murder case? What "new developments" were there?

As soon as I saw that it was an update/repeat and I knew that HBO Max had just come out with a 3-part documentary on the Murdaughs (Low Country: The Murdaugh Dynasty), I decided to watch that instead.  I highly recommend it.  I was going to watch the end of this episode to see what updates they had but I fell asleep.  There's no verdict but I do think he plead guilty to stealing money from his housekeeper's family's settlement but not the other families he robbed.  His other cohorts in crime are still awaiting trial.