S22.E09: The System

[WendyCR72]

Mid-season finale is upon us! Airs December 8, 2022:

Quote

A suspect arrested for murder escapes police custody after months of waiting for his day in court. As a hostage situation erupts, Shaw must re-examine his conduct as the arresting officer. Price questions his faith in the justice system.

[dttruman]

There was a mention of a confession by the suspect, but I want to see the video in the interrogation room to see how much of that confession was coerced. or are they just hyping this up too much. When he has a gun and takes a hostage, I don't care how innocent he is now, people shouldn't have any sympathy for him. He just committed kidnapping and he deserves whatever sentence for kidnapping.

Edited December 9, 2022 by dttruman

[dubbel zout]

I had to laugh that the police were trying to be inconspicuous on the street when some have on vests emblazoned with POLICE and some are in full SWAT gear. 

[mommalib]

Nolan's attitude at the end really disturb me. He's lets move past this as if it's that damn simple. 

[Door County Cherry]

I thought the episode presented some very complex issues and was better than I thought it'd be based on the overly dramatized promos.

And yet, it's based on a silly premise that the defense attorney was able to easily manage to obtain evidence after 18 months that proves the guy was innocent.  And the cops never found that in a year and a half?  That's pretty terrible.  Then Nolan didn't even want to look at it? It makes no sense, especially since she was going to introduce it at trial.  I'd think he'd want to know. 

2 hours ago, dttruman said:

I want to see the video in the interrogation room to see how much of that confession was coerced.

Supposedly it was only a two hour interview.  I think they wanted to put Shaw at the center of this to have him explore how he became a part of the system that ended up screwing over another black man when he joined the force to prevent something like that.  

But I think they  also want to keep Shaw as being a bit above typical police tactics which is why the interrogation was said to have been two hours as opposed to 12 hours of relentless interviewing when he's hungry and tired. 

[edhopper]

He confessed, the cops stopped investigating and moved on,  there was no one to find the video. His first lawyer was incompetent. 

But I think in real life they would have gone Man 1 and went for a plea bargain. Especially after they found out he was innocent of the first murder.

[Xeliou66]

I thought this was another solid episode, it had an interesting premise and was a bit different from the usual case, but overall it was solid. I did wonder about the defense attorney finding the video that showed Booker was innocent of the first murder, how did she find it? And when did she view it and did she ever get the chance to show it to her client? I took it she didn’t, as Booker escaped before she could show it, but I still wondered how she found it when the police didn’t. That was never explained and was the episode’s only weak point. Other than that this was strong.

Another thing I wondered about was forensic analysis of Booker’s shirt after the murder he didn’t commit, I’m not an expert on science and don’t know how accurate it can be but couldn’t there be a possibility of the bloodstains proving that his story was true and he didn’t kill the guy based on the blood splatter? They jammed a lot into the hour so they didn’t have much time to explore the murder Booker was accused of, but I would’ve liked more of an explanation, because parts of it came off as shoddy work by Shaw. 

I liked the intensity and “ticking clock” element of the first half, we hadn’t had that in a while.

Jack’s scenes were great as usual, I liked how he told Nolan to get his head back in the game and gave him advice to give the jury an emotional gut punch of their own. I bought how Nolan would feel guilty about this, but he did his job and I agreed with the guilty verdict, the officer died because Booker attacked him trying to escape, and while Booker’s story was tragic, a tragic backstory doesn’t give someone a free pass for murder, many killers have a tragic story. And I felt even less sympathy for Booker when he lied about being attacked at Rikers to score points with the jury, that came back to bite him I think and rightfully so. The jury was right to convict him of murder IMO. 

I liked having more interaction between the DA’s and police, I always enjoy them sharing scenes. I kind of liked the scene between Price and Shaw at the bar, and I understood both of their points of view, it was a tough situation and the system failed, but had Booker just been more patient he would’ve gone free, killing an officer and taking hostages is never okay.

Not a perfect episode, it had some flaws but was pretty decent, and a change of pace from the norm was handled pretty well. L&O has found a nice groove this season after an uneven season 21, and I’m enjoying it a lot, look forward to it coming back in January.

[dttruman]

10 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Supposedly it was only a two hour interview.  I think they wanted to put Shaw at the center of this to have him explore how he became a part of the system that ended up screwing over another black man when he joined the force to prevent something like that.  

But I think they  also want to keep Shaw as being a bit above typical police tactics which is why the interrogation was said to have been two hours as opposed to 12 hours of relentless interviewing when he's hungry and tired. 

Shaw is suppose to be a good cop. I thought it was almost a character assassination on Shaw making him look like a sloppy, careless, uncaring cop on the way he investigated that case, Booker told him, he had lit one up, why didn't he test him for drugs. Shaw didn't even bother to look for the shooter that Booker could identify

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Another thing I wondered about was forensic analysis of Booker’s shirt after the murder he didn’t commit,

If the guy was shot, wouldn't there have been GSR on the shirt as well as the victim's blood?

The show barely touched on the fact that Booker had been at Riker's for more than a year with no trial date in sight. That's what set all of this in motion.

[dttruman]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I thought this was another solid episode, it had an interesting premise and was a bit different from the usual case, but overall it was solid. I did wonder about the defense attorney finding the video that showed Booker was innocent of the first murder, how did she find it? And when did she view it and did she ever get the chance to show it to her client? I took it she didn’t, as Booker escaped before she could show it, but I still wondered how she found it when the police didn’t. That was never explained and was the episode’s only weak point. Other than that this was strong.

There were too many little things that they threw into this story to make the premise plausible  and this is one of them.

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Another thing I wondered about was forensic analysis of Booker’s shirt after the murder he didn’t commit, I’m not an expert on science and don’t know how accurate it can be but couldn’t there be a possibility of the bloodstains proving that his story was true and he didn’t kill the guy based on the blood splatter? They jammed a lot into the hour so they didn’t have much time to explore the murder Booker was accused of, but I would’ve liked more of an explanation, because parts of it came off as shoddy work by Shaw. 

Do you think if he would have any gun shot residue on him?

Did you think McCoy is becoming a little too much of a hard ass here? He didn't even bother to mention anything about the circumstances about the shooting of the corrections officer (CO). From the video, (or what they showed from it), it was definitely not Murder 2, but that's what McCoy wanted. When he was the ADA, he took those things into consideration. He is starting to remind me of DA Arthur Branch (Fred Dalton), he was a hard ass from the beginning.

Just out of curiosity, why did Price call the widow of the CO to testify at the trial? She couldn't have had any relevant testimony that was related to the shooting. The only thing she could have done was give a Victim's family Impact statement after the trial.

[dubbel zout]

5 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Just out of curiosity, why did Price call the widow of the CO to testify at the trial? She couldn't have had any relevant testimony that was related to the shooting. The only thing she could have done was give a Victim's family Impact statement after the trial.

To play up feelings on that side. Jack told Price to bring some emotion into the prosecution's side. What better way that to let the widow testify about her shattered family? Not sure about whether she'd have been allowed to testify like that IRL, though.

[dttruman]

11 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

If the guy was shot, wouldn't there have been GSR on the shirt as well as the victim's blood?

I can understand the blood being on his shirt, but would there be any GSR on Booker's hands?

[Xeliou66]

22 minutes ago, dttruman said:

There were too many little things that they threw into this story to make the premise plausible  and this is one of them.

Do you think if he would have any gun shot residue on him?

Did you think McCoy is becoming a little too much of a hard ass here? He didn't even bother to mention anything about the circumstances about the shooting of the corrections officer (CO). From the video, (or what they showed from it), it was definitely not Murder 2, but that's what McCoy wanted. When he was the ADA, he took those things into consideration. He is starting to remind me of DA Arthur Branch (Fred Dalton), he was a hard ass from the beginning.

Just out of curiosity, why did Price call the widow of the CO to testify at the trial? She couldn't have had any relevant testimony that was related to the shooting. The only thing she could have done was give a Victim's family Impact statement after the trial.

I didn’t think Jack was being too much of a hardass, I thought he was right on, the officer died because Booker attacked him while escaping, and while Booker didn’t intend to kill him his actions were depraved indifference and he deserved to be charged with murder.

And yeah Price called the widow to testify in order to get the jury’s sympathy for her, and I thought she did have a bit of relevant testimony in that the character of the victim was relevant and he had received a medal for his work and was a good man. So I bought that she would testify.

My main issue with the episode is how they just glossed over the original murder that set the whole tragedy in motion, and it came off as shoddy police work by Shaw if all they had was a bloody shirt. They should’ve given a different backstory and had more evidence in the case against Booker in order to make the plot more believable and not make Shaw look bad. 

[Drogo]

24 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

My main issue with the episode is how they just glossed over the original murder that set the whole tragedy in motion, and it came off as shoddy police work by Shaw if all they had was a bloody shirt. They should’ve given a different backstory and had more evidence in the case against Booker in order to make the plot more believable and not make Shaw look bad. 

^^This for me, too. I get that once someone confesses to a murder, the police aren't going to spend time and resources trying to disprove them.. but..  Were there really no witnesses willing to speak to police at the scene and tell them that Booker had just been in the wrong place and tried to help?    

• Booker confesses to a murder he didn't commit in <2 hours because Shaw said what every investigating cop is says to a suspect- that he can help himself by telling the truth- because no one wants to listen to their Miranda warnings apparently.
• He attempts an escape, killing a CO in the process, during the new evidence hearing of a timestamped 4K video of someone else shooting the victim and he/Booker coming to his aid that would 100% exonerate him since the framing and quality was such that the camera could have only been mounted on the fucking streetlight directly above the victim's corpse.
• On the lam he stops for some cheeseburgers with his brother but leaves the minute his CO ladyfriend doesn't show up, because he (correctly) assumes she ratted him out, stopping to drag a mother-of-3 hostage at gunpoint into a crowded bookstore (the most sacred of places) and terrorizes people who just wanted an iced mocha and something to read.
• Not to mention his story about the white supremacist's murder threat, which turned out to be bullshit.   

If you want us to feel sympathy for Booker, L&O, don't make him so unsympathetic and fucking reckless with human lives.  And if you want us to think Shaw is a shitty cop, you need to show us how he was shitty.  Nothing we've seen from the character so far gives any indication he would leave a scene without the due diligence of talking to witnesses and scouting for cameras.  

14 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I had to laugh that the police were trying to be inconspicuous on the street when some have on vests emblazoned with POLICE and some are in full SWAT gear. 

And Shaw motioning to them to move slowly, as if Booker was a T-Rex?  

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Were there really no witnesses willing to speak to police at the scene and tell them that Booker had just been in the wrong place and tried to help?   

Why didn't the person who filmed Booker helping the victim immediately speak up?

This was a typical new L&O episode, in it rather hamhandedly tries to tackle a current issue and does a poor job with both sides.

[mommalib]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I thought this was another solid episode, it had an interesting premise and was a bit different from the usual case, but overall it was solid. I did wonder about the defense attorney finding the video that showed Booker was innocent of the first murder, how did she find it? And when did she view it and did she ever get the chance to show it to her client? I took it she didn’t, as Booker escaped before she could show it, but I still wondered how she found it when the police didn’t. That was never explained and was the episode’s only weak point. Other than that this was strong.

Another thing I wondered about was forensic analysis of Booker’s shirt after the murder he didn’t commit, I’m not an expert on science and don’t know how accurate it can be but couldn’t there be a possibility of the bloodstains proving that his story was true and he didn’t kill the guy based on the blood splatter? They jammed a lot into the hour so they didn’t have much time to explore the murder Booker was accused of, but I would’ve liked more of an explanation, because parts of it came off as shoddy work by Shaw. 

I liked the intensity and “ticking clock” element of the first half, we hadn’t had that in a while.

Jack’s scenes were great as usual, I liked how he told Nolan to get his head back in the game and gave him advice to give the jury an emotional gut punch of their own. I bought how Nolan would feel guilty about this, but he did his job and I agreed with the guilty verdict, the officer died because Booker attacked him trying to escape, and while Booker’s story was tragic, a tragic backstory doesn’t give someone a free pass for murder, many killers have a tragic story. And I felt even less sympathy for Booker when he lied about being attacked at Rikers to score points with the jury, that came back to bite him I think and rightfully so. The jury was right to convict him of murder IMO. 

I liked having more interaction between the DA’s and police, I always enjoy them sharing scenes. I kind of liked the scene between Price and Shaw at the bar, and I understood both of their points of view, it was a tough situation and the system failed, but had Booker just been more patient he would’ve gone free, killing an officer and taking hostages is never okay.

Not a perfect episode, it had some flaws but was pretty decent, and a change of pace from the norm was handled pretty well. L&O has found a nice groove this season after an uneven season 21, and I’m enjoying it a lot, look forward to it coming back in January.

It's easy to say Booker should have been patient but I would imagine you have never been in those shoes. In a place like Rikers waiting damn near two years for trial for something you didn't do. There is a very human element here and people get way too apathetic about these situations especially when it comes to Black men. And I feel this episode took strides to make Booker less sympathetic which is very nasty considering the circumstances. It's like the message was the system screwed him but to hell with that he belongs in jail anyway. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

If the guy was shot, wouldn't there have been GSR on the shirt as well as the victim's blood?

The show barely touched on the fact that Booker had been at Riker's for more than a year with no trial date in sight. That's what set all of this in motion.

Especially considering the show's history made it seem like New York County did not have those long jail stays before trial that at least  Los Angeles County has in real life. They even had the story of Lennie about to retire and he cleans out his desk after the conviction to go out with a win as if he was just waiting for the end of the two trials on his last case.

I was expecting a plea with that 18 months being part of time served even with all the stuff he did on those last few days as a detainee and his escape  escapades.

When we met Detective Shaw in the crossover event he was brand new to homicide before Frank took over to mentor him. It seemed that the Lieutenant in his prior precinct was not really doing anything to monitor the new inexperienced guy. And the entire system thought it was a slam dunk case.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Raja

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's easy to say Booker should have been patient but I would imagine you have never been in those shoes. In a place like Rikers waiting damn near two years for trial for something you didn't do. There is a very human element here and people get way too apathetic about these situations especially when it comes to Black men. And I feel this episode took strides to make Booker less sympathetic which is very nasty considering the circumstances. It's like the message was the system screwed him but to hell with that he belongs in jail anyway. 

Booker’s race doesn’t have anything to do with my opinion of him, although I’m aware that minorities can get screwed by the system. I agree Booker had a tragic story but it’s not okay to kill someone trying to escape and then take hostages. He deserved to go to prison for that, as I said before most killers have some tragedy in their lives, tragedy and difficult circumstances do not give anyone a free pass for murder. Had Booker been patient he would’ve been cleared. So while Booker did get screwed, he didn’t deserve a slap on the wrist for killing a corrections officer and taking hostages. That is never okay.

My issue with the episode was how the circumstances of the first murder were glossed over, it made it look like shoddy police work by Shaw and there were a lot of unanswered questions I had about it, especially about how the attorney got the video and where the video came from. 

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Why didn't the person who filmed Booker helping the victim immediately speak up?

"Hey look at this video I took of Booker absolutely not killing that guy."  

"Woopsy."

15 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's easy to say Booker should have been patient but I would imagine you have never been in those shoes. In a place like Rikers waiting damn near two years for trial for something you didn't do. 

It's true, mostly because I would never confess to a a murder I didn't commit.

But I've been taught from a young age that if you're being questioned about your involvement in a crime, you don't tell the cops a fucking thing.  They tell you themselves that they have every intention of using anything you say against you.  

23 minutes ago, mommalib said:

It's like the message was the system screwed him but to hell with that he belongs in jail anyway. 

Luckily he didn't go to jail for the murder he didn't commit, he went to jail for the one he did commit.

[mommalib]

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Booker’s race doesn’t have anything to do with my opinion of him, although I’m aware that minorities can get screwed by the system. I agree Booker had a tragic story but it’s not okay to kill someone trying to escape and then take hostages. He deserved to go to prison for that, as I said before most killers have some tragedy in their lives, tragedy and difficult circumstances do not give anyone a free pass for murder. Had Booker been patient he would’ve been cleared. So while Booker did get screwed, he didn’t deserve a slap on the wrist for killing a corrections officer and taking hostages. That is never okay.

My issue with the episode was how the circumstances of the first murder were glossed over, it made it look like shoddy police work by Shaw and there were a lot of unanswered questions I had about it, especially about how the attorney got the video and where the video came from. 

His race doesn't have anything to do with it? Come on now don't be naive. And he did not murder that Correctons officer it was an accident and the officer shot himself in the tussle. And by the way the officer didn't die of the gun shot wound he died from other complications of previous poor health issues. So I wouldn't classify Booker as a murderer. 

[Xeliou66]

Just now, mommalib said:

His race doesn't have anything to do with it? Come on now don't be naive. And he did not murder that Correctons officer it was an accident and the officer shot himself in the tussle. And by the way the officer didn't die of the gun shot wound he died from other complications of previous poor health issues. So I wouldn't classify Booker as a murderer. 

The officer died because Booker attacked him while trying to escape. That makes Booker a murderer. He officially died of an infection of the wound that Booker gave him, so yeah Booker was responsible, there were no prior health issues. No one gets a free pass for murder, regardless of how tragic their backstory is.

[illdoc]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

On the lam he stops for some cheeseburgers with his brother

So,  the brother buys the food (at 11:40), gets home, they eat 2 burgers (each) and a milkshake, and the fugitive manages to leave before the police get there (at 12:02)??? That's pretty fast!!! I wouldn't have been able to make it home from McD's in 20 minutes, never mind eating the food!

[watcher1006]

I gasped during the hostage situation when Shaw was trying to talk Booker into surrendering and he told him to "believe in the system". That was the last thing that Booker was going to believe in at that moment.

The message of this plot was certainly clear, that black people and especially black men don't get fair treatment in the criminal justice system. The episode was compelling to watch, but there were certainly plot problems, such as in Shaw's past actions and in the way the video miraculously turned up so late in the process.

[Drogo]

14 minutes ago, illdoc said:

So,  the brother buys the food (at 11:40), gets home, they eat 2 burgers (each) and a milkshake, and the fugitive manages to leave before the police get there (at 12:02)??? That's pretty fast!!! I wouldn't have been able to make it home from McD's in 20 minutes, never mind eating the food!

Two cheeseburgers and a milkshake in fifteen minutes, after a year plus in prison?   I think we all figured he was in the toilet.  

[Drogo]

52 minutes ago, mommalib said:

His race doesn't have anything to do with it? Come on now don't be naive. And he did not murder that Correctons officer it was an accident and the officer shot himself in the tussle.

FWIW, the OP said Booker's race had nothing to do with OP's opinion of him, not that it had nothing to do with the episode/case.  

I don't feel we can characterize the shooting of the CO as an accident when the gun was pointed at him by Booker, and the gun was drawn as result of Booker attacking the CO.  The attack of course being an attempt to incapacitate the CO (incapicitate, or kill, I don't think Booker cared either way in that moment) in order to get away.  That's malice/intent.  He also fled the scene and didn't attempt to help him after the shooting did happen.  At minimum it's involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide.    

[blackwing]

I thought this was a pretty good and powerful episode.  The issues raised are important and I thought they were handled fairly well.  However, I didn't really care for the defense attorney getting too sanctimonious and preachy.

14 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

And yet, it's based on a silly premise that the defense attorney was able to easily manage to obtain evidence after 18 months that proves the guy was innocent.  And the cops never found that in a year and a half?  That's pretty terrible.  Then Nolan didn't even want to look at it? It makes no sense, especially since she was going to introduce it at trial.  I'd think he'd want to know. 

This was my biggest issue with the plot.  The guy has been in prison for 18 months... and then all of a sudden there's this new evidence that magically appeared?  Where has it been this whole time?  This is just like the last episode when the military report magically appeared at the last minute.

So some bystander took video of the fight between the murder victim and the real killer.  Video clearly shows Booker trying to help the victim and asking for help.  Why didn't bystander come forward earlier?  Wouldn't the police at the scene have taken witness statements?  "Yeah, I thought I was going to film an awesome fight, and all of a sudden one guy got killed, I got it on video."  Just seems like incredibly poor police work.  Police would have asked for witnesses, the bystander would have come forward.  

Defense Attorney didn't explain where she got the video.  Did she get it from the bystander himself?  Did she find it posted on social media?  Where did it come from?  Why did it take 18 months?  In the age of Deep Fakes, why were Price and Maroun so willing to accept its authenticity?  Doesn't it seem kind of convenient that Ms. Frazier came up with this video on the eve of trial?  Shouldn't they at the very least have an interview under oath of the bystander to confirm that he took the video?

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The show barely touched on the fact that Booker had been at Riker's for more than a year with no trial date in sight. That's what set all of this in motion.

But as Price said, he had access to a phone so he had access to his lawyer.  Why didn't he put forth more effort in talking with his lawyer?  He could have recanted his confession and say he was coerced into doing so.  Also, his mom had constantly been calling Price and he said his office was looking into things.  

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

^^This for me, too. I get that once someone confesses to a murder, the police aren't going to spend time and resources trying to disprove them.. but..  Were there really no witnesses willing to speak to police at the scene and tell them that Booker had just been in the wrong place and tried to help?    

• Booker confesses to a murder he didn't commit in <2 hours because Shaw said what every investigating cop is says to a suspect- that he can help himself by telling the truth- because no one wants to listen to their Miranda warnings apparently.
• He attempts an escape, killing a CO in the process, during the new evidence hearing of a timestamped 4K video of someone else shooting the victim and he/Booker coming to his aid that would 100% exonerate him since the framing and quality was such that the camera could have only been mounted on the fucking streetlight directly above the victim's corpse.
• On the lam he stops for some cheeseburgers with his brother but leaves the minute his CO ladyfriend doesn't show up, because he (correctly) assumes she ratted him out, stopping to drag a mother-of-3 hostage at gunpoint into a crowded bookstore (the most sacred of places) and terrorizes people who just wanted an iced mocha and something to read.
• Not to mention his story about the white supremacist's murder threat, which turned out to be bullshit.   

If you want us to feel sympathy for Booker, L&O, don't make him so unsympathetic and fucking reckless with human lives.  And if you want us to think Shaw is a shitty cop, you need to show us how he was shitty.  Nothing we've seen from the character so far gives any indication he would leave a scene without the due diligence of talking to witnesses and scouting for cameras.  

100% agree.  Why did he make up the story about the white supremacist?  Why did he threaten to kill the hostage in the bookstore?  Why did he confess?  Just because he was high?

1 hour ago, Raja said:

When we met Detective Shaw in the crossover event he was brand new to homicide before Frank took over to mentor him. It seemed that the Lieutenant in his prior precinct was not really doing anything to monitor the new inexperienced guy. And the entire system thought it was a slam dunk case.

It doesn't make sense to me that Shaw was the detective on the original case.  When we first met Shaw, I believe he said he had only been in Homicide for a few months.  It seems inconceivable to me that 15 months have passed since we first met Shaw and now.  He was in Narcotics, he wouldn't have interviewed a murder suspect and obtained a confession.  Also, even if he actually was in Homicide during the original murder, it would have been one of his first cases, so he wouldn't have been assigned to do the interview alone.

54 minutes ago, mommalib said:

His race doesn't have anything to do with it? Come on now don't be naive. And he did not murder that Correctons officer it was an accident and the officer shot himself in the tussle. And by the way the officer didn't die of the gun shot wound he died from other complications of previous poor health issues. So I wouldn't classify Booker as a murderer. 

The officer died because of the gunshot wound.  The wound got infected and he died of septic shock.  The defense attorney was trying to say that the doctors were at fault for not saving him.  But he wouldn't have had an infected wound had he not gotten shot by Booker.  Booker is responsible for the CO's death.

[dubbel zout]

30 minutes ago, blackwing said:

But as Price said, he had access to a phone so he had access to his lawyer.  Why didn't he put forth more effort in talking with his lawyer?  He could have recanted his confession and say he was coerced into doing so. 

I thought it was established that the first defense attorney had done a terrible job, which is why there was a new one. Did they ever say how she got involved? All I can remember her saying is that this was her first murder case. 

[Drogo]

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought it was established that the first defense attorney had done a terrible job, which is why there was a new one. Did they ever say how she got involved? All I can remember her saying is that this was her first murder case. 

Booker's mom kept calling Price's office to say he was innocent (no known video at that point) and showed up at the courthouse during another case- he told Moms it wasn't appropriate for him to converse with her directly and that Booker's lawyer should be the one reaching out.  I imagine that's why/when they hired Ms. Frazier, who called for a pre-trial/new evidence hearing.

[shapeshifter]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:14 AM, Drogo said:

Not to mention his story about the white supremacist's murder threat, which turned out to be bullshit.   

All we know for sure is that the prison warden said on the stand that there was no record of such a threat.
Given that the title of the episode is "The System," I'm not sure that we aren't supposed to see the warden's testimony as being another example of the deck being stacked against the wrongfully charged and incarcerated.
 

Also regarding "The System" not working to honor the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty, in court we have this dialog:

• [COURT] The defendant stands accused in two separate but related cases... Murder and escape, kidnapping, and assault of a corrections officer.
• [JUDGE] The People are seeking consolidation?
• [PRICE] The two cases stemmed from the same criminal transaction.
  The escape and assault never would have happened but for the underlying murder.
  Therefore, we should only have one trial.
• [DEFENSE ATTORNEY] Before you consider joining the cases, I'd like the opportunity to argue a motion to dismiss the murder case.
• [PRICE] Well, we've already been down that road twice.
• [DEFENSE ATTORNEY] But I have newly discovered evidence.

I am wondering if a more experienced defense attorney (she said it was her first murder case) would have been able to hold back the exonerating video of the murder until after the 2 cases were linked, and, if so, if that would have allowed both cases to be dismissed?

About the exonerating video not showing up until the too-late 11th hour: I can imagine someone having it on their cell phone from when they were out partying and then forgetting about it until they happened to hear or read about the trial. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by shapeshifter

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

All we know for sure is that the prison warden said on the stand that there was no record of such a threat.
Given that the title of the episode is "The System," I'm not sure that we aren't supposed to see the warden's testimony as being another example of the deck being stacked against the wrongfully charged and incarcerated.

Booker claimed that he was threatened by white supremacist on that day.  Warden testified that Booker was in his cell all day, except for an hour when he was in the yard.  There was video of the entire hour, and at no point did any white supremacist talk to Booker.  It seems to me that this is meant to show that Booker was lying.  If he wasn't lying, then defense attorney would have challenged warden more.  Or there would have been some other footage from a different camera showing that Booker did in fact talk to someone.

[dttruman]

54 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

About the exonerating video not showing up until the too-late 11th hour: I can imagine someone having it on their cell phone from when they were out partying and then forgetting about it until they happened to hear or read about the trial. 

The last few comments  made were good points and represented both sides very well, but IMO they were based on convenient or very unlikely circumstances, like the one mentioned above. Plausible, but very unlikely.  Shaw is made to look like an apathetic cop, the CO is shot even though he was wearing a vest, the wound that kills the CO is because of the infection caused unsanitary conditions at the hospital, and so on.

[dttruman]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Booker claimed that he was threatened by white supremacist on that day.  Warden testified that Booker was in his cell all day, except for an hour when he was in the yard.  There was video of the entire hour, and at no point did any white supremacist talk to Booker.  It seems to me that this is meant to show that Booker was lying.  If he wasn't lying, then defense attorney would have challenged warden more.  Or there would have been some other footage from a different camera showing that Booker did in fact talk to someone.

With all the different and unlikely circumstances the writers were throwing out there, I was still wondering if maybe the Warden had check the wrong day or Booker may have told him the wrong day. The writers kept putting out different or unexpected instances that we might take into consideration. The one instance that Booker really has to take full responsibility for is taken that woman hostage. There is no reasonable excuse for that

[mommalib]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I thought this was a pretty good and powerful episode.  The issues raised are important and I thought they were handled fairly well.  However, I didn't really care for the defense attorney getting too sanctimonious and preachy.

This was my biggest issue with the plot.  The guy has been in prison for 18 months... and then all of a sudden there's this new evidence that magically appeared?  Where has it been this whole time?  This is just like the last episode when the military report magically appeared at the last minute.

So some bystander took video of the fight between the murder victim and the real killer.  Video clearly shows Booker trying to help the victim and asking for help.  Why didn't bystander come forward earlier?  Wouldn't the police at the scene have taken witness statements?  "Yeah, I thought I was going to film an awesome fight, and all of a sudden one guy got killed, I got it on video."  Just seems like incredibly poor police work.  Police would have asked for witnesses, the bystander would have come forward.  

Defense Attorney didn't explain where she got the video.  Did she get it from the bystander himself?  Did she find it posted on social media?  Where did it come from?  Why did it take 18 months?  In the age of Deep Fakes, why were Price and Maroun so willing to accept its authenticity?  Doesn't it seem kind of convenient that Ms. Frazier came up with this video on the eve of trial?  Shouldn't they at the very least have an interview under oath of the bystander to confirm that he took the video?

But as Price said, he had access to a phone so he had access to his lawyer.  Why didn't he put forth more effort in talking with his lawyer?  He could have recanted his confession and say he was coerced into doing so.  Also, his mom had constantly been calling Price and he said his office was looking into things.  

100% agree.  Why did he make up the story about the white supremacist?  Why did he threaten to kill the hostage in the bookstore?  Why did he confess?  Just because he was high?

It doesn't make sense to me that Shaw was the detective on the original case.  When we first met Shaw, I believe he said he had only been in Homicide for a few months.  It seems inconceivable to me that 15 months have passed since we first met Shaw and now.  He was in Narcotics, he wouldn't have interviewed a murder suspect and obtained a confession.  Also, even if he actually was in Homicide during the original murder, it would have been one of his first cases, so he wouldn't have been assigned to do the interview alone.

The officer died because of the gunshot wound.  The wound got infected and he died of septic shock.  The defense attorney was trying to say that the doctors were at fault for not saving him.  But he wouldn't have had an infected wound had he not gotten shot by Booker.  Booker is responsible for the CO's death.

Booker didn't shoot him he shot himself

[The Wild Sow]

8 minutes ago, dttruman said:

With all the different and unlikely circumstances the writers were throwing out there, I was still wondering if maybe the Warden had check the wrong day or Booker may have told him the wrong day.

That's what we were thinking happened.

The only thing that really surprised us was no add-on scene at the end where they learn of Booker's suicide (very likely) - or his actual death at the hands of the white power guy.

[dttruman]

2 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

That's what we were thinking happened.

The only thing that really surprised us was no add-on scene at the end where they learn of Booker's suicide (very likely) - or his actual death at the hands of the white power guy.

Yeah, they have done that a few times over the years

[blackwing]

2 minutes ago, mommalib said:

Booker didn't shoot him he shot himself

???  You think the guard purposely used his own gun to shoot himself in the stomach?  Why would he have done that?  The video showed Booker attacking the CO, they struggled for the gun, gun went off, guard was shot.

I don't see any way to claim that the guard shot himself.  Booker assaulted the guard and they struggled over the gun.  It doesn't matter if it was the guard's finger or Booker's finger on the trigger.  Booker's actions led to the guard getting shot, and he is directly responsible for the death.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

About the exonerating video not showing up until the too-late 11th hour: I can imagine someone having it on their cell phone from when they were out partying and then forgetting about it until they happened to hear or read about the trial. 

50 minutes ago, dttruman said:

The last few comments  made were good points and represented both sides very well, but IMO they were based on convenient or very unlikely circumstances, like the one mentioned above. Plausible, but very unlikely.

Given the Black man theme going on perhaps the video owner knew he had the video of the crime but just didn't know it was the good Samaritan who was charged in the murder he saw and went into a no snitching mode. It was only with the escape and hostage taking that a minor murder story becomes a big deal news and he then knew that he didn't have proof of murder but rather proof of innocence.  

[mommalib]

24 minutes ago, blackwing said:

???  You think the guard purposely used his own gun to shoot himself in the stomach?  Why would he have done that?  The video showed Booker attacking the CO, they struggled for the gun, gun went off, guard was shot.

I don't see any way to claim that the guard shot himself.  Booker assaulted the guard and they struggled over the gun.  It doesn't matter if it was the guard's finger or Booker's finger on the trigger.  Booker's actions led to the guard getting shot, and he is directly responsible for the death.

They flat out said it was the guards finger on the trigger unless I missed something. So yes I wash he had gotten a better deal than 15 years considering the full picture it's clear Booker deserved prison time for what happened to that officer but I can't ignore that this all started with Booker trying to be a good Samaritan.  The system that screwed him get to roll right along but he ends up with a price to pay.

[Door County Cherry]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

About the exonerating video not showing up until the too-late 11th hour: I can imagine someone having it on their cell phone from when they were out partying and then forgetting about it until they happened to hear or read about the trial. 

I don't know that I'd forget about recording a murder unless that person saw murders every day.  

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Booker claimed that he was threatened by white supremacist on that day.  Warden testified that Booker was in his cell all day, except for an hour when he was in the yard.  There was video of the entire hour, and at no point did any white supremacist talk to Booker.  It seems to me that this is meant to show that Booker was lying.  If he wasn't lying, then defense attorney would have challenged warden more.  Or there would have been some other footage from a different camera showing that Booker did in fact talk to someone.

That's another thing that gets me.  The prosecution went so far as to imply that he only came up with this "threatened by a white supremacist" after a visit from his lawyer but a lawyer willing to go that far surely would try to poke holes in the warden's testimony.  (By the way, Hello Josh from Guiding Light!)  She didn't have to prove anything, she could bring up how much a part of the system he is and suggest that we have to take a lot at his word. 

[buttersister]

Quote

But I think they  also want to keep Shaw as being a bit above typical police tactics which is why the interrogation was said to have been two hours as opposed to 12 hours of relentless interviewing when he's hungry and tired. 

Writers failed with me. Shaw’s a shitty, now guilt-ridden cop. I’m reminded of John Oliver’s L&O rant and cops who solicit confessions with the promise of helping yourself out. Also, 11th hour proof of evidence? And where did you take my Jack McCoy? Also, you know what else was tragic? Hugh Dancy’s hair. 

I missed what role the woman CO played in this escape. Or was it just an innocent man fearful of being lost in Rikers because his mom reports no one returns her calls. His (1st) lawyer was useless. And there’s no trial date in sight. 

[shapeshifter]

19 hours ago, buttersister said:

I’m reminded of John Oliver’s L&O rant and cops who solicit confessions with the promise of helping yourself out.

I was thinking that John Oliver would find this episode so much of an indictment of The [Legal] System that he would wonder if it was written in response to his L&O rant.

 
 

19 hours ago, buttersister said:

I missed what role the woman CO played in this escape

About the woman CO, Alana: She was almost a Red Herring. “The warden said she was recently punished for getting too close to Booker” and she “called in sick” that day. So Cosgrove and Shaw track her down, and she finally admits that Booker had called her after he escaped to ask for money. The detectives leave her to look for Booker at the meeting place (I think?) and then the hostage-taking happens, after which Alana is never mentioned again.

At first I thought the plot point with Alana was going to be another version of the ripped-from-the-headlines "Escape at Dannemora" (/abcnews.go.com/US/joyce-mitchell-set-prison-release-years-helping-convicted/story?id=68789748).
But, similar to the old classic L&O openings, she was just a hook to the main plot.

Edited December 11, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Madding crowd]

The CO got shot when Booker attacked him and tried to get his gun to escape. No way was the CO responsible for his own shooting. I did think the episode showed the failures of the system but in real life last minute videos wouldn’t happen.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

The CO got shot when Booker attacked him and tried to get his gun to escape. No way was the CO responsible for his own shooting.

I thought the writers deliberately left the escape shooting ambiguous, as they frequently have with events depicted in the reboot, seemingly to let the viewer mentally fill in the narrative in a sort of 21st century, interactive way.

But also, as in this episode, the confusion (confusing, at least, to me) around the guard getting shot seems to be a narrative choice to demonstrate that what happens and what is observed and what is reported aren't always clear cut
The few seconds we see of fuzzy video aren't clear to me, and the the couple of lines of dialog about the video seem self-contradictory too:

• [SHAW WATCHING THE ESCAPE VIDEO] Wait, that gun is in the guard's hand. Yeah, thanks. That helps. I need a throw phone!
• [SHAW LATER, TO BOOKER] The corrections officer that you shot, he's still alive. We got the video. So we know that you two were wrestling over the weapon, and he's the one who actually pulled the trigger.

Edited December 10, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Samsnee]

I haven’t cared much for Shaw and Maroun. But this episode really made me actively hate them. Maroun especially is just not a good actress. Her reaction is to just open her eyes widely in disbelief whenever she wants to be serious. 
 

I’ve been watching old eps with Cutter and Rubirosa and I really miss them. 

[Cotypubby]

I hated how they basically glossed over the fact that Booker took hostages and kidnapped an innocent woman and held a loaded gun to her head. As if those victims didn’t even matter.

Being wrongfully imprisoned (for a murder you confessed to!! 🙄) doesn’t give you free reign to kill someone and then kidnap people.

Sorry but his righteous indignation means nothing after you kill and kidnap people. You were innocent. You then decided to be a criminal.

[CrystalBlue]

3 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I hated how they basically glossed over the fact that Booker took hostages and kidnapped an innocent woman and held a loaded gun to her head. As if those victims didn’t even matter.

Being wrongfully imprisoned (for a murder you confessed to!! 🙄) doesn’t give you free reign to kill someone and then kidnap people.

Sorry but his righteous indignation means nothing after you kill and kidnap people. You were innocent. You then decided to be a criminal.

Not only this, but Booker & Co. tried to make the unjust incarceration about race, but sweet innocent Booker was fine with terrorizing and possibly killing a Black woman.

Edited December 11, 2022 by CrystalBlue
finish sentence

[Xeliou66]

18 hours ago, Samsnee said:

I haven’t cared much for Shaw and Maroun. But this episode really made me actively hate them. Maroun especially is just not a good actress. Her reaction is to just open her eyes widely in disbelief whenever she wants to be serious. 
 

I’ve been watching old eps with Cutter and Rubirosa and I really miss them. 

Connie is my all time favorite female prosecutor on the show, I loved her, and I definitely miss her. But I have the unpopular opinion of liking Nolan Price more than Cutter, Cutter could really grate on me with his huge ego and his penchant for bending the rules and having to use trickery to win cases. At times he seemed like he was more in it for his ego than for justice. I like how Nolan is low key and methodical and doesn’t resort to dirty tricks.  
As for Maroun, she’s okay, she’s better than Serena or Borgia as ADA’s but not as good as the likes of Connie or Abbie Carmichael. They seem to have made her more outspoken and willing to challenge Nolan and Jack this season, and it looks like she’ll get a heavier role in the next new episode, I don’t have a problem with her but I can see how some think Price and Maroun are too low key.   
I like Shaw and I think he’s fit in smoothly, new characters frequently don’t fit in well at the start on L&O, not the case for Shaw IMO, I think he’s fit in from the start and I like him and Cosgrove together. The writing for Shaw in this episode was bad though in that it made him look like a dummy who did shoddy work in arresting Booker, the backstory here for the original murder was really lacking. 

1 hour ago, CrystalBlue said:

Not only this, but Booker & Co. tried to make the unjust incarceration about race, but sweet innocent Booker was fine with terrorizing and possibly killing a Black woman.

I didn’t feel a whole lot of sympathy for Booker for these reasons, yes the system failed him, but killing a guard and taking hostages is never okay and he might very well have killed hostages if Cosgrove hadn’t snuck in from behind because I don’t think there was much reasoning with him. 

[dttruman]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:56 PM, mommalib said:

They flat out said it was the guards finger on the trigger unless I missed something. So yes I wash he had gotten a better deal than 15 years considering the full picture it's clear Booker deserved prison time for what happened to that officer but I can't ignore that this all started with Booker trying to be a good Samaritan.  The system that screwed him get to roll right along but he ends up with a price to pay.

On 12/9/2022 at 8:13 PM, Door County Cherry said:

That's another thing that gets me.  The prosecution went so far as to imply that he only came up with this "threatened by a white supremacist" after a visit from his lawyer but a lawyer willing to go that far surely would try to poke holes in the warden's testimony.  (By the way, Hello Josh from Guiding Light!)  She didn't have to prove anything, she could bring up how much a part of the system he is and suggest that we have to take a lot at his word. 

Did it seem like they forced Booker to go with a no plea deal? They kept the guard (CO) shooting ambiguous, Booker's attorney kept suggesting he wasn't directly responsible for the death, and the attorney was the plea for manslaughter. Did Brice and Maroun go in with too high of a plea  of 15 years and could the "with good behavior" portion knock it down to 10years? Where it could have been like 10 years and down to 7 with good behavior?

[CrystalBlue]

I felt for Booker's initial plight, but overtaking the guard and all his subsequent behavior was not the right thing to do in an attempt to right his wrong incarceration.  Mama Booker (and I'm not trying to victim blame here) should have gone higher up than ADA Price when she was continually being ignored.  Write a letter to the District Attorney, alert the media, get even a local newsroom to do a story, something.

[dttruman]

31 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I didn’t feel a whole lot of sympathy for Booker for these reasons, yes the system failed him, but killing a guard and taking hostages is never okay and he might very well have killed hostages if Cosgrove hadn’t snuck in from behind because I don’t think there was much reasoning with him. 

I don't think Booker was ever on trial for kidnapping, just Murder 2 that could have been knock down to manslaughter? Did they drop the kidnapping charge?  If he did go on trial for the kidnapping charge, he'd be gone!