S05.E10: Safe

[Whimsy]

Quote

Under threat, June must find a way to keep herself and her family safe from Gilead and its violent supporters in Toronto.

Original airdate 11/9/22

[Anela]

I haven't been watching, I've just been reading here. I was going to watch it all at once, but now I'm not so sure. Violent supporters in Toronto? So, they aren't safe anywhere. And, why aren't those supporters emigrating to Gilead? 

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, tpwilder said:

Since there's no diplomatic talks with Gilead, there's no way to have formal emigration so leaving Canada for Gilead would mean leaving with nothing but the clothes on your back. Why leave everything if you think the revolution is coming is the logic. 

This totally contradicts what they are writing though. Gileadeans have fortresses in Canadian soil, they have a "cultural attache" (?), a building with security and parties. Now they have a fertility center and people fly in and out of Gilead, drive back and forth to Canda, June meets and talks of the phone with anyone...

What you said is logic, what is being written is a mess

1 hour ago, tpwilder said:

If we're talking simply running across the border, that could be happening but Canada would be taking steps to stop that. Its bad press and gives Gilead intel

That would make Canada go back to a time of the Iron Curtain.

Edited November 7, 2022 by circumvent

[0122Zyxe493]

Spoilers for the finale were leaked on Deadline. They must have posted it a day early by mistake, the article is now deleted. The spoilers appear legitimate and match with some media images that were leaked. 

I think more people should read it to decide if they want to watch the episode. IMO it sounds horrendous. 

I hope it's ok to post this link. 

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/coconutsandtreason/comments/yorjvp/spoiler_the_dateline_season_5_finale_article_was/

[greekmom]

In the previews it seems that Janine is back as a Handmaid to Naomi and now Joseph. Which does not make sense since Esther is pregnant with Wheeler's baby and could have easily been placed there and not have to endure the monthly rapes. 

[circumvent]

11 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Esther is pregnant with Wheeler's baby and could have easily been placed there and not have to endure the monthly rapes.

But that would mean that Gilead would be depriving a commander of his fun while terrorizing a woman (even if Joseph doesn't approve of the rapes, the rules are the rules)

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

In the previews it seems that Janine is back as a Handmaid to Naomi and now Joseph. Which does not make sense since Esther is pregnant with Wheeler's baby and could have easily been placed there and not have to endure the monthly rapes. 

I think this is Aunt Lydia's way to help Janine because this way she can be around Charlotte. I'm sure Naomi was not on board but was overruled. And since we know Lawrence doesn't do the ceremony unless he's forced to, that also means Janine is not going to get raped anymore.

[Quilt Fairy]

Well, that was stupid. 

A whole season of S-T-U-P-I-D. 

I could write more, but I don't think this show is worth it anymore.  I'm taking my remaining brain cells over to Netflix to see if The Crown S5 has dropped yet. 

[chocolatine]

FFS, not another cliffhanger for Janine!

[Armchair Critic]

June has these men risking their lives for her. Now Nick is screwed too. Aunt Lydia believed in the cause but it will be interesting what she does now that Janine is taken away. June and Serena are now frenemies?

[kitkat343]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Well, that was stupid. 

A whole season of S-T-U-P-I-D. 

I could write more, but I don't think this show is worth it anymore.  I'm taking my remaining brain cells over to Netflix to see if The Crown S5 has dropped yet. 

Ah, yes, but who was the most stupid:

- Nick, for hitting Commander Lawrence publicly instead of making Tuello an offer to defect to America and provide information conditional on the Americans protecting June and Nicolle.  He didn't want to leave Gilead for his wife's sake, but hitting another man over his girlfriend publicly is going to pretty much end their marriage.  And he may not love Rose, but he genuinely cares for her and trusts her a lot, so the fact that he hit Lawrence publicly is really humiliating and stupid.  He also has a ton of information that could help take Gilead down and get revenge on the people who tried to hurt June, but instead he takes a swing at Lawrence and gets himself thrown in jail.

-Rose, for not quite realizing that there is no way out of her shitty marriage (unless she is planning to go full Naomi and request that the council salvage her husband for his crimes).  She's definitely not the stupidest person here, since everyone else seemed to make terrible decisions that directly caused their own problems, and she's just reacting to Nick's stupidity.

- June for not realizing that Luke couldn't possibly get on a train right now while being tracked down by the canadian authorities

-Naomi for treating Janine like garbage one minute and then telling her how happy she was to have a friend in Commander Lawrence's home

-Janine for throwing away what was probably the safest posting for her, which would also have hopefully given her some access to Charlotte. (although in her defense she may not have realized how much safer she is in Commander Lawrence's home than any other commander, and Commander Lawrence may have had her arrested so he can force her to come back to his home where he will protect her)

I'd personally select Nick as the dumbest person here, but the fun thing about this show is there are so many options!  At least Serena showed some intelligence and resilience (this woman has the resilience of a cockroach) in throwing herself at Tuella the first second she could.  

Edited November 9, 2022 by kitkat343

[chocolatine]

53 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

-Janine for throwing away what was probably the safest posting for her, which would also have hopefully given her some access to Charlotte. (although in her defense she may not have realized how much safer she is in Commander Lawrence's home than any other commander, and Commander Lawrence may have had her arrested so he can force her to come back to his home where he will protect her) 

Janine was put into the van with the Martha who had told her about the attack on June (talk about stupid; I thought them talking about it within earshot of other people was the stupidest move of all). If Lawrence wanted Janine back in his house, it wouldn't make sense for the Martha to also be in the van. If Janine and the Martha are lucky, Lawrence is going to get them out of Gilead. But, much more likely, I think Lawrence is going to crack down after Nick publicly undermined him, so I don't think this will end well for Janine and the Martha.

BTW, that scene in the van reminded me of the S1 episode when Emily had to watch the execution of the Martha with whom she'd had a relationship. Two muzzled women sitting in a van facing each other, one crying and the other trying to comfort her.

(I obviously care a lot more about Janine than I do about June, Luke, or Serena at this point.)

[NeenerNeener]

4 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Well, that was stupid. 

A whole season of S-T-U-P-I-D.

Add to that...June walking down the middle of the street and not using the sidewalk. Not that it would have stopped that creep in the truck from going up on the sidewalk to run her over but she might have started running for cover when she saw the truck swerve.

Edited November 9, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[dmc]

The writing on this was effed

I felt like I stood in line for the merry go round and got on the roller coaster by mistake.

The whole Luke plot was just crazy.

We didn’t see Serena the entire episode, except for the end, so we have no idea how she got to the train.  And are the Wheelers, even looking for her?

I guess Mark Tuello finally chose side after 19 funerals.  Also, are they giving Mark a southern accent?  I definitely heard one.

I mean, we know Nick loves June but what his plan for being stuck in Gilead why didn’t he at least leave?  Also, Rose doesn’t have the ability to leave him does she?  Since when do women in Gilead get to make choices?

Nothing better happen to Janine.

We definitely needed more build up to the Canada is crazy now.

I feel like they needed six more episodes to tell the story but blew too many on filler so they condensed them into one batshit crazy episode. Pacing is a thing, writers. Stop with all these filler episodes and spread out some of the plot so it makes sense.

[Helena Dax]

Hahaha, what a mess.

I know Wives don't usually have the best grasp on reality, but Naomi might be the most egregious example. She went from being a total bitch to Janine to acting all friendly. Lady, make up your mind. In second place we have Rose, who apparently believes she can get a divorce. Or perhaps she thinks she'll become a widow soon? 

Then we have Nick, who knew that McKenzie was fed up with June, but chose to believe that the Commander behind the attacks was Lawrence just because. And did he confront Lawrence in private? No, of course not. He went and punched him in front of all the other Commanders. Well played, Nick.

Also, we're supposed to believe that the Canadians feel such hostility against American refugees that when Luke attacks/kills the guy who is trying to kill his wife, they would arrest Luke. And who is creating such hostility anyway? Gilead supporters? Canadian nationalists?  Wtf is happening and why do the writers think that it doesn't matter?

And finally, we have two extremely important assets in the fight against Gilead -June and Serena, for different reasons- and instead of taking them to a safe place in a private plane, they're put in a train where Serena, in all justice, should be recognized and lynched. 

This dumb show, I swear. 

[crashdown]

39 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

And finally, we have two extremely important assets in the fight against Gilead -June and Serena, for different reasons- and instead of taking them to a safe place in a private plane, they're put in a train where Serena, in all justice, should be recognized and lynched. 

There’s no indication that Tuello knew anything about Serena—she found her own way to the train. 

[Helena Dax]

3 minutes ago, crashdown said:

There’s no indication that Tuello knew anything about Serena—she found her own way to the train. 

And how was she allowed in? They're checking their IDs. And as far as we know, she's still a Gilead citizen.

[Baltimore Betty]

Did anyone else get a Snowpiercer vibe from that train scene?

I still do not understand why June decided to run in the street instead of making a bee line across the lawns for her front door but I am glad she decided to actually run instead of doing her usual move as slow as possible thing.

Nick confuses me, first he is in to help Canada then he is out and now he is in again and feels it needs to be done on a bridge where any guard from Gilead can see them.  I actually thought Nick was going to shoot Tuello on that bridge.

Moira does not feel the need to leave Canada?

I know the next season will wrap things up but will it be better lit?

Mrs. Wheeler wears the pants in that house and Mr. Wheeler is her puppet, she only needs him to be the front man because she cannot being she is a woman so it makes me wonder why she is so in to what Gilead is selling?  Will she and Mr. Wheeler be involved in New Bethlehem somehow?

Janine cannot catch a break, was the other woman in the police van the Martha that told her about June?

Serena had the tiniest taste of handmaid life and bolted (rightly so), has she ever apologized to June?  Will they bond over trying to make a diaper that fits a 21 month old fit a one month old?  I feel like I have just written the opening questions for the show Soap, from the 70's.

6 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

June and Serena are now frenemies?

Can you imagine the crazy sitcom that could come out of those two being roommates in Hawaii? 

[HMFan]

I'm left wondering how they knew that Nick did anything wrong other than punch Lawrence. Lawrence is turning out to be quite the two faced bastardo. We were led to believe he wanted to change Gilead, but apparently he's full of his own collar fluff.

I knew when I heard the baby crying that June was going to bump into Serena.

I'm sorry, but I would not have left on a train. I would have stayed until Canada kicked me out. There is no way in hell I'm going to place myself in danger to go back to an area that Gilead can easily invade.  Trains don't run to Hawaii.  Planes do. So at some point Ms. Osborne is going to need to hop on a plane which can then be shot down by Gilead anti-aircraft weapons. Even if they get to Hawaii or Alaska, what is to stop Gilead from simply invading those places as well. Much more so Hawaii than Alaska simply because Hawaii is only 10K miles big, and 2K miles off the western coast whereas Alaska is 665 miles of space,, but the populations is sprinkled around, and they would likely have to go through Canada to get there, or have a massive sea strike on really rough seas. 

Why send two main people of the plot on trains when they have no guaranteed way to reach Hawaii is beyond me.

[chocolatine]

I think the writers stole the train idea from news coverage of the war in Ukraine.

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, tpwilder said:

I mean, do people on the train understand that western Canada is still Canada? So moving American refugees from Toronto to British Columbia isn't getting rid of the problem?

Is Moira on the train somewhere? Rita?

I can buy the Canadians being angry with American refugees. Not sure I buy them being so angry that an American refugee stopping a Canadian from murdering his wife would draw this much attention. 

But then logically I don't understand why American refugees haven't been routed to Alaska and Hawaii from the get go. 

They are on the train to Vancouver BC to catch a plane or a boat ride to Hawaii.  Personally the whole thing reminded me of the Jewish people boarding a train thinking they are going to some remote place and then shipped off to the camps. I wouldn't be surprised if they (show) pull a fast one on us and those people on the train are actually headed to New Bethlehem.  

I don't buy that Canadians are angry with American refugees. Maybe if this was set in our world but not in THT world. Since there is a low birth rate that has steadily increased that would also result in low population. Having the Americans in Canada would have resulted in a population boost. Show can't have it's cake and eat it too.  Plus, Luke was stopping someone from killing his wife. Isn't that involuntarily manslaughter? Any lawyers in the audience? 

I agree with the poster above who said that alot of characters made alot of stupid decisions.  

Nick - for publicly going against Lawrence.  He had a great shot of working the system, getting intel and leaving with Rose in tow. 

Rose - for thinking that she can just out of her marriage with Nick.  Rose is lucky to be alive. Her daddy was a high up commander.  Due to her genetic issue that she walks with a cane, she really should have been rounded up and gotten rid of with the others. Proving that she can become pregnant, that automatically puts her on the target to be demoted to Handmaid if Nick is found guilty and killed. Regardless of who her father is, there is only so much protection he can offer.

Naomi - for treating Janine like crap then turning around to be besties with her. She needs a week at casa Wheelers house.

June - for walking in the middle of the street. Damn idiot.

Luke - for giving himself up. He should went home. Lawyered up, then turned himself in.

I dont believe Lydia will ever get redemption. At least not in my eyes. I hope they just do away with the character in the end. 

Again, I ask, why is Hawaii and Alaska the only two remaining States?  What happened to the territories and why have they not been elevated to a "State"?  Most Americans could have gone to American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.  Plus Americans fleeing below the 54 would have fled to Mexico or other South American countries.  So what's going on with those refugees?

Edited November 9, 2022 by greekmom

[circumvent]

43 minutes ago, greekmom said:

They are on the train to Vancouver BC to catch a plane or a boat ride to Hawaii.  Personally the whole thing reminded me of the Jewish people boarding a train thinking they are going to some remote place and then shipped off to the camps. I wouldn't be surprised if they (show) pull a fast one on us and those people on the train are actually headed to New Bethlehem.  

I don't buy that Canadians are angry with American refugees. Maybe if this was set in our world but not in THT world. Since there is a low birth rate that has steadily increased that would also result in low population. Having the Americans in Canada would have resulted in a population boost. Show can't have it's cake and eat it too.  Plus, Luke was stopping someone from killing his wife. Isn't that involuntarily manslaughter? Any lawyers in the audience? 

Why are you making so much sense? Do you want to ruin the writer's feelings of self-importance and give them self-awareness - with a dose of competency - by making such sensical and good points? 

45 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Show can't have it's cake and eat it too

Just because I recently learnt that the correct saying is "can't eat the cake and have it too". 

46 minutes ago, greekmom said:

What happened to the territories and why have they not been elevated to a "State"?  Most Americans could have gone to American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

They finally gave the US the middle finger and got rid of the colonialism, becoming independent. I will stick to this until the writers ruin that too.

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Why are you making so much sense? Do you want to ruin the writer's feelings of self-importance and give them self-awareness - with a dose of competency - by making such sensical and good points? 

Just because I recently learnt that the correct saying is "can't eat the cake and have it too". 

They finally gave the US the middle finger and got rid of the colonialism, becoming independent. I will stick to this until the writers ruin that too.

I thought it was have your cake and eat it too

[Anela]

I've never understood the cake thing. If I have cake, and I bought it, I'm going to eat it. 

I haven't watched yet - had a stressful night (at home), and was watching something lighter, before I managed to sleep. 

[crashdown]

Since I'm watching the show mainly for the June/Serena interactions, the absurdly contrived end of the episode pleased me. I really love the idea that circumstances have brought June and Serena to the same physical and emotional space, both of them fleeing with their babies. I love that they're going to have to figure out this thing together. (June had told Luke that she didn't want to do this alone, and now she doesn't have to.) No, I don't anticipate co-parenting and coconuts--I'm going to be very surprised if they actually make it to Hawaii--but they're clearly going to be working together and supporting each other, and that's cool with me. (Yes, yes, I know: evil rapist, abuser, snake, trauma bond, etc. Too bad!) 

A couple of notes about that last scene, which I'm sure I'll be watching quite a few more times over the course of the year that we'll have until the next episode:

• I think I posted somewhere that, after June's help with Noah's birth, Serena's feelings regarding June became relatively uncomplicated: she loves June, and she wants June's friendship and approval. The fact that June told her that they weren't friends and refused to help her find a lawyer apparently didn't shift any of that--she looked at June as if she were seeing her long lost lover on that train. I really think that something in Serena shifted, at least as far as June is concerned, and that she's going to be as loyal to her as she's capable of being. The "as she's capable of being" is the sticking point, because she may not be that capable at all.
• June's feelings about Serena, on the other hand, are Complicated with a capital C, as well they should be. She's the injured party in the relationship; she's the one who experienced Serena's abuse and evils. With June, I think we see a trauma bond, an instinctive kinship, a hatred, a compassionate understanding, a belief in Serena's ability to change, and a real affection all intertwined, with different bits of that witch's brew bubbling up at different times. June has all the power in this relationship now--Serena wants whatever June chooses to give, and it's not yet clear what June is going to do. (I read an interview with Lizzie Moss who said that it was important to her that the ending be a cliffhanger of sorts, so the audience would feel unsure about whether June is about to punch Serena or to hug her. It was also Lizzie's choice to end with the chorus of Billie Eilish's "Bury a Friend" as the perfect lyrics for the moment: "What do you want from me? Why don't you run from me? / What are you wondering? What do you know? / Why aren't you scared of me? Why do you care for me? / When we all fall asleep, where do we go?")
• I also read that they went back and forth about that last "Do you have a diaper?" line. They apparently had a lot of different variations of it, and some endings where they just cut after "Hi June./Hi Serena." It was important that the audience understand that this was an olive branch from Serena and sort of a joke, because of course Nichole's diapers are too big for Noah. I'm not totally sold on the line, but Yvonne delivered it well.
• Lizzie intentionally wanted to end on a June smirk that echoed Serena's smirk in 5.02, when she is standing with Hannah on the jumbotron. I'm not certain why she made that choice, since the situations are so different, but I'm going to think more about it.
• The pacing of this episode was just about perfect. I had read the spoilers, and I thought the whole thing sounded ridiculous, but I was surprised at how well it played out on the screen. I was particularly impressed with the Serena reveal. There was so much going on in the episode that I think it was really possible just to forget about Serena entirely, so it genuinely was an ending that made a dramatic impact.
• It'll be really interesting to learn how Serena found her way to the train; I'm sure it wasn't Tuello, who had his hands full and who would have given June a heads up if he knew about Serena. I read an interview with Yvonne, who said that she imagines that Serena ended up in a shelter that gave her clothes, and that she would have had to come up with a plan to get a fake refugee card somehow. She's resourceful, so I have no doubt that she could have pulled it off.

Finally, hats off to Lizzie Moss's directing in this episode; I'm impressed. This was a hard directing job, with all of those crowds and different locations, and some of those shots were just gorgeous.  I know people mock her for all of those closeups of her own face, but there's a lot more to her than that. She's got real talent for this.

Edited November 9, 2022 by crashdown

[dmc]

2 hours ago, crashdown said:

Since I'm watching the show mainly for the June/Serena interactions, the absurdly contrived end of the episode pleased me. I really love the idea that circumstances have brought June and Serena to the same physical and emotional space, both of them fleeing with their babies. I love that they're going to have to figure out this thing together. (June had told Luke that she didn't want to do this alone, and now she doesn't have to.) No, I don't anticipate co-parenting and coconuts--I'm going to be very surprised if they actually make it to Hawaii--but they're clearly going to be working together and supporting each other, and that's cool with me. (Yes, yes, I know: evil rapist, abuser, snake, trauma bond, etc. Too bad!) 

A couple of notes about that last scene, which I'm sure I'll be watching quite a few more times over the course of the year that we'll have until the next episode:

• I think I posted somewhere that, after June's help with Noah's birth, Serena's feelings regarding June became relatively uncomplicated: she loves June, and she wants June's friendship and approval. The fact that June told her that they weren't friends and refused to help her find a lawyer apparently didn't shift any of that--she looked at June as if she were seeing her long lost lover on that train. I really think that something in Serena shifted, at least as far as June is concerned, and that she's going to be as loyal to her as she's capable of being. The "as she's capable of being" is the sticking point, because she may not be that capable at all.
• June's feelings about Serena, on the other hand, are Complicated with a capital C, as well they should be. She's the injured party in the relationship; she's the one who experienced Serena's abuse and evils. With June, I think we see a trauma bond, an instinctive kinship, a hatred, a compassionate understanding, a belief in Serena's ability to change, and a real affection all intertwined, with different bits of that witch's brew bubbling up at different times. June has all the power in this relationship now--Serena wants whatever June chooses to give, and it's not yet clear what June is going to do. (I read an interview with Lizzie Moss who said that it was important to her that the ending be a cliffhanger of sorts, so the audience would feel unsure about whether June is about to punch Serena or to hug her. It was also Lizzie's choice to end with the chorus of Billie Eilish's "Bury a Friend" as the perfect lyrics for the moment: "What do you want from me? Why don't you run from me? / What are you wondering? What do you know? / Why aren't you scared of me? Why do you care for me? / When we all fall asleep, where do we go?")
• I also read that they went back and forth about that last "Do you have a diaper?" line. They apparently had a lot of different variations of it, and some endings where they just cut after "Hi June./Hi Serena." It was important that the audience understand that this was an olive branch from Serena and sort of a joke, because of course Nichole's diapers are too big for Noah. I'm not totally sold on the line, but Yvonne delivered it well.
• Lizzie intentionally wanted to end on a June smirk that echoed Serena's smirk in 5.02, when she is standing with Hannah on the jumbotron. I'm not certain why she made that choice, since the situations are so different, but I'm going to think more about it.
• The pacing of this episode was just about perfect. I had read the spoilers, and I thought the whole thing sounded ridiculous, but I was surprised at how well it played out on the screen. I was particularly impressed with the Serena reveal. There was so much going on in the episode that I think it was really possible just to forget about Serena entirely, so it genuinely was an ending that made a dramatic impact.
• It'll be really interesting to learn how Serena found her way to the train; I'm sure it wasn't Tuello, who had his hands full and who would have given June a heads up if he knew about Serena. I read an interview with Yvonne, who said that she imagines that Serena ended up in a shelter that gave her clothes, and that she would have had to come up with a plan to get a fake refugee card somehow. She's resourceful, so I have no doubt that she could have pulled it off.

Finally, hats off to Lizzie Moss's directing in this episode; I'm impressed. This was a hard directing job, with all of those crowds and different location, and some of those shots were just gorgeous.  I know people mock her for all of those closeups of her own face, but there's a lot more to her than that. She's got real talent for this.

Do you know that saying that used to be all over social media find someone who looks  at you the way that so-and-so looks at whatever?

I think we can clearly fill in the blank with find someone who looks at you the way Serena looks at June on the train. 
 

There was a legit light in Serena’s eyes when she sees June and she looks ecstatic.  I feel like this is Serena’s first friendship. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by dmc

[Bluesky]

On 11/7/2022 at 1:25 PM, Anela said:

I haven't been watching, I've just been reading here. I was going to watch it all at once, but now I'm not so sure. Violent supporters in Toronto? So, they aren't safe anywhere. And, why aren't those supporters emigrating to Gilead? 

It’s more of a Canadians hating immigrants.  Time for them to move on.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Bluesky
Typo

[crashdown]

9 minutes ago, dmc said:

There was a legit light in Serena’s eyes when she sees June and she looks ecstatic.  I feel like this is Serena’s first friendship. 

I feel that way, too. I've spent more time than I should pondering whether having an actual female friend before Gilead might have really changed Serena substantially. Maybe it would have. Maybe it would have helped her get beyond her narrow, narcissistic perspective and helped her understand other women. Maybe if she understood other women, she wouldn't have been so quick to sell them out. She's never been happy, and the only closeness she's ever had came from her relationships with men like Fred. At any rate, realizing that you love someone that you've spent years abusing in the past can't feel very great. I do feel sorry for Serena, even though it's a minority opinion.

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I feel that way, too. I've spent more time than I should pondering whether having an actual female friend before Gilead might have really changed Serena substantially. Maybe it would have. Maybe it would have helped her get beyond her narrow, narcissistic perspective and helped her understand other women. Maybe if she understood other women, she wouldn't have been so quick to sell them out. She's never been happy, and the only closeness she's ever had came from her relationships with men like Fred. At any rate, realizing that you love someone that you've spent years abusing in the past can't feel very great. I do feel sorry for Serena, even though it's a minority opinion.

Having a real female friendship can change your life anywhere. It’s makes your feel accepted, understood, and that you have a found a place where you belong. That’s why Gilead keeps track of the Handmaids’ shopping routes and how long they are there…June says it Re Emily,…”she’s my spy and I am hers.” Gilead knows that women being friends is dangerous.  It’s why they basically create a society where only men are encouraged to congregate and be close. Women are watching each other.

Edited November 9, 2022 by dmc

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I thought it was have your cake and eat it too

2 hours ago, Anela said:

If I have cake, and I bought it, I'm going to eat it. 

When someone changed the saying, it became confusing. The original "you can't eat the cake and have it too" makes sense because you already ate it. 

[crashdown]

3 minutes ago, dmc said:

Having a real female friendship can change your life anywhere. It’s makes your feel accepted, understood, and that you have a found a place where you belong. That’s why Gilead keeps track of the Handmaids’ shopping routes and how long they are there…June says it Re Emily…she’s my spy and I am hers.  Gilead knows that women being friends is dangerous.  It’s why they basically create a society where only men are encouraged to congregate and be close. Women are watching each other.

Yes, exactly. And that's exactly why Fred felt so threatened when he came home from the hospital in season 2 and clocked the music box and flower that Serena had given to June as thanks for helping with the writing work. He was no idiot: he knew what it meant, and he knew that letting the two of them get closer would be a problem for him. That's why he beat Serena and forced June to watch, because he knew that it would stop whatever friendship might be developing absolutely cold. And it worked: by the next episode, Serena decides that June would leave the Waterford house as soon as the baby is born, rather than nursing her through weaning. I hated Fred for many reasons, but that was a big one!

[dmc]

9 minutes ago, circumvent said:

When someone changed the saying, it became confusing. The original "you can't eat the cake and have it too" makes sense because you already ate it. 

I looked this up because I am nerdy 

You can’t have your cake and eat it too means you must make a choice, you cannot have it both ways. Literally, if someone wants to retain possession of a cake he cannot eat it, these two choices are mutually exclusive. The same sentiment of the necessity of making a choice may be found in the Albanian proverb that says you cannot take a swim and not get wet, or the German saying that states you cannot dance at two weddings at the same time. The oldest known use of the proverb you can’t have your cake and eat it too was in a letter from Thomas, Duke of Norfolk to Thomas Cromwell in 1538. In British English, the last word is often omitted from the proverb, as in you can’t have your cake and eat it.
 

also isn’t that  Thomas Cromwell who was beheaded by Henry the Eighth?

7 minutes ago, crashdown said:

Yes, exactly. And that's exactly why Fred felt so threatened when he came home from the hospital in season 2 and clocked the music box and flower that Serena had given to June as thanks for helping with the writing work. He was no idiot: he knew what it meant, and he knew that letting the two of them get closer would be a problem for him. That's why he beat Serena and forced June to watch, because he knew that it would stop whatever friendship might be developing absolutely cold. And it worked: by the next episode, Serena decides that June would leave the Waterford house as soon as the baby is born, rather than nursing her through weaning. I hated Fred for many reasons, but that was a big one!

Yes he feels uneasy by their closeness and sets to destroy it.  
 

all the women in their household:  Rita, Serena, and June are distrustful of each other and this is encouraged.  
 

It reminds me of something I read when #metoo was happening.  That there are different rankings on sets and big name actresses weren’t necessarily talking to PAs etc.  So it created a situation where women weren’t exactly sharing information about assaults or potential dangers. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by dmc

[Trillian]

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

I don't buy that Canadians are angry with American refugees. Maybe if this was set in our world but not in THT world. Since there is a low birth rate that has steadily increased that would also result in low population. Having the Americans in Canada would have resulted in a population boost. Show can't have it's cake and eat it too.  Plus, Luke was stopping someone from killing his wife. Isn't that involuntarily manslaughter? Any lawyers in the audience? 

We don’t really have an offence of involuntary manslaughter. Manslaughter itself encompasses the notion that one did not have the requisite intent to murder but did have the intent to cause harm.  However, Luke has a self-defence argument (which, in Canada, includes reasonable belief that another person - and not just the accused himself - would otherwise be harmed). 
 

I had no problem with the idea that he might be arrested.  It easily could go either way, and, when one person ends up dead or seriously injured, police tend to err on the side of arrest and let the courts figure it out. I did have a problem with how they went about it.  What was ridiculous was that they didn’t either arrest him immediately or ask him - possibly through the lawyer Moira mentions he has - to turn himself in.   There’s a very good chance he’d get bail.   Police do not “put out a bulletin” among themselves to announce they are getting a warrant, and they usually don’t get the warrant until the two options above are exhausted.  And the manhunt at the train station was absurd. All of a sudden, this show is painting Canada as a wild, lawless place with no explanation of how it got there.  Just shaking my head and glad I can now turn my attention to the Crown and get this mess out of my head. 

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, Trillian said:

We don’t really have an offence of involuntary manslaughter. Manslaughter itself encompasses the notion that one did not have the requisite intent to murder but did have the intent to cause harm.  However, Luke has a self-defence argument (which, in Canada, includes reasonable belief that another person - and not just the accused himself - would otherwise be harmed). 
 

I had no problem with the idea that he might be arrested.  It easily could go either way, and, when one person ends up dead or seriously injured, police tend to err on the side of arrest and let the courts figure it out. I did have a problem with how they went about it.  What was ridiculous was that they didn’t either arrest him immediately or ask him - possibly through the lawyer Moira mentions he has - to turn himself in.   There’s a very good chance he’d get bail.   Police do not “put out a bulletin” among themselves to announce they are getting a warrant, and they usually don’t get the warrant until the two options above are exhausted.  And the manhunt at the train station was absurd. All of a sudden, this show is painting Canada as a wild, lawless place with no explanation of how it got there.  Just shaking my head and glad I can now turn my attention to the Crown and get this mess out of my head. 

I have a slight problem with there being no mention of race.  I mean in what world wouldn’t this play a factor?  

White immigrants and brown immigrants are not the same.  Look at Anna Delvey.

Edited November 9, 2022 by dmc

[tennisgurl]

Will we ever have a season where we don't end by looking into June's face with such intensity that we can count her pores? Where people will do things that make sense? Where the world building will be consistent? I swear, this show just makes my head hurt sometimes.

I can buy that some Canadians would be sick of American refugees, but how many refugees even are there? They mostly just seem to be in Little America, are they impacting most Canadians that much really? If fertility is such a huge deal and people are so desperate for babies that they are willing to give a place like Gilead a shot, wouldn't they be happy to have more people to have kids with? I just don't know how we got from a Toronto that told Serena to fuck herself during her visit and all cheered when Emily showed up at the hospital after escaping Gilead to refugees being so hated that the cops will try to convict a guy who accidently killed the man who tried to murder his wife and will try to shoot up a funeral, almost killing a little girl. 

Rose must be utterly delusional if she thinks that she can just decide to leave Nick, almost as delusional as Naomi if she thinks that she and Jeanine are besties after everything her family has done to her. Janine telling Naomi how she really feels about her also seems like a pretty bad move, but I cant really blame her for being so furious that she just let her real feelings out. Besides, we know she'll be fine, this show doesn't have the balls to actually kill a main character. Nick is pretty high on the stupid scale too, thinking he can just punch Lawrence right in front of everyone over June, its like everyone on this show is taking stupid pills. 

Even if that guy wasn't trying to kill June, she might have been hit by a car anyway, just walking right in the middle of the road and not on the sidewalk like an idiot.

I am so not a Serena fan, but her and June as wacky sitcom roommates in Hawaii is at least a different way to take the show. Their world could have been a different place if Serena had even one female friend in her life. I wish Moira had come, she's been woefully underused this season and as an American refuge and activist, wouldn't she be worried too? Can they just move the refugees to Alaska? They certainly have the room. 

This is a show that has really gone on way longer than it should have. I've invested enough time into the show that I am going to keep watching, but the show is clearly running on fumes. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Bluesky]

4 hours ago, Anela said:

I've never understood the cake thing. If I have cake, and I bought it, I'm going to eat it. 

I haven't watched yet - had a stressful night (at home), and was watching something lighter, before I managed to sleep. 

Something about the famous “let them eat cake” quote?  I don’t understand half of those sayings.  

[Bluesky]

3 hours ago, crashdown said:

Since I'm watching the show mainly for the June/Serena interactions, the absurdly contrived end of the episode pleased me. I really love the idea that circumstances have brought June and Serena to the same physical and emotional space, both of them fleeing with their babies. I love that they're going to have to figure out this thing together. (June had told Luke that she didn't want to do this alone, and now she doesn't have to.) No, I don't anticipate co-parenting and coconuts--I'm going to be very surprised if they actually make it to Hawaii--but they're clearly going to be working together and supporting each other, and that's cool with me. (Yes, yes, I know: evil rapist, abuser, snake, trauma bond, etc. Too bad!) 

A couple of notes about that last scene, which I'm sure I'll be watching quite a few more times over the course of the year that we'll have until the next episode:

• I think I posted somewhere that, after June's help with Noah's birth, Serena's feelings regarding June became relatively uncomplicated: she loves June, and she wants June's friendship and approval. The fact that June told her that they weren't friends and refused to help her find a lawyer apparently didn't shift any of that--she looked at June as if she were seeing her long lost lover on that train. I really think that something in Serena shifted, at least as far as June is concerned, and that she's going to be as loyal to her as she's capable of being. The "as she's capable of being" is the sticking point, because she may not be that capable at all.
• June's feelings about Serena, on the other hand, are Complicated with a capital C, as well they should be. She's the injured party in the relationship; she's the one who experienced Serena's abuse and evils. With June, I think we see a trauma bond, an instinctive kinship, a hatred, a compassionate understanding, a belief in Serena's ability to change, and a real affection all intertwined, with different bits of that witch's brew bubbling up at different times. June has all the power in this relationship now--Serena wants whatever June chooses to give, and it's not yet clear what June is going to do. (I read an interview with Lizzie Moss who said that it was important to her that the ending be a cliffhanger of sorts, so the audience would feel unsure about whether June is about to punch Serena or to hug her. It was also Lizzie's choice to end with the chorus of Billie Eilish's "Bury a Friend" as the perfect lyrics for the moment: "What do you want from me? Why don't you run from me? / What are you wondering? What do you know? / Why aren't you scared of me? Why do you care for me? / When we all fall asleep, where do we go?")
• I also read that they went back and forth about that last "Do you have a diaper?" line. They apparently had a lot of different variations of it, and some endings where they just cut after "Hi June./Hi Serena." It was important that the audience understand that this was an olive branch from Serena and sort of a joke, because of course Nichole's diapers are too big for Noah. I'm not totally sold on the line, but Yvonne delivered it well.
• Lizzie intentionally wanted to end on a June smirk that echoed Serena's smirk in 5.02, when she is standing with Hannah on the jumbotron. I'm not certain why she made that choice, since the situations are so different, but I'm going to think more about it.
• The pacing of this episode was just about perfect. I had read the spoilers, and I thought the whole thing sounded ridiculous, but I was surprised at how well it played out on the screen. I was particularly impressed with the Serena reveal. There was so much going on in the episode that I think it was really possible just to forget about Serena entirely, so it genuinely was an ending that made a dramatic impact.
• It'll be really interesting to learn how Serena found her way to the train; I'm sure it wasn't Tuello, who had his hands full and who would have given June a heads up if he knew about Serena. I read an interview with Yvonne, who said that she imagines that Serena ended up in a shelter that gave her clothes, and that she would have had to come up with a plan to get a fake refugee card somehow. She's resourceful, so I have no doubt that she could have pulled it off.

Finally, hats off to Lizzie Moss's directing in this episode; I'm impressed. This was a hard directing job, with all of those crowds and different locations, and some of those shots were just gorgeous.  I know people mock her for all of those closeups of her own face, but there's a lot more to her than that. She's got real talent for this.

I like the June / Serena relationship too.    
if June was responsible for that cheesy music over most of the episode, she’s not all that great at directing.  It was a negative distraction.    There was also too much soap opera type dialog, especially between Truello and what’s his name, Junes boyfriend. And people hate her twitchy jerky facials so why not tone it down? 

 I do hope that Lydia sees how wrong she’s been and ends up being a hero.  

[Bluesky]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I have a slight problem with there being no mention of race.  I mean in what world wouldn’t this play a factor?  

White immigrants and brown immigrants are not the same.  Look at Anna Delvey.

 Race is simply not an issue in Gilead.  You’re mixing up the real world with a fictional TV show.  

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

The original "you can't eat the cake and have it too" makes sense because you already ate it. 

But why would anyone want to have cake if not to eat it (or gift it to someone else to eat)? The cake will go bad after a few days if not eaten, and then you can neither have that particular cake nor eat it.

Edited November 9, 2022 by chocolatine

[Whimsy]

Please take the cake discussion to small talk. Thank you

[revbfc]

Well, last week I predicted next season would be an Odd Couple rip off, but now I’m changing my prediction to Kate & Allie…but with more frienemy action.

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I can buy that some Canadians would be sick of American refugees, but how many refugees even are there? They mostly just seem to be in Little America, are they impacting most Canadians that much really? If fertility is such a huge deal and people are so desperate for babies that they are willing to give a place like Gilead a shot, wouldn't they be happy to have more people to have kids with? I just don't know how we got from a Toronto that told Serena to fuck herself during her visit and all cheered when Emily showed up at the hospital after escaping Gilead to refugees being so hated that the cops will try to convict a guy who accidently killed the man who tried to murder his wife and will try to shoot up a funeral, almost killing a little girl. 

Rose must be utterly delusional if she thinks that she can just decide to leave Nick, almost as delusional as Naomi if she thinks that she and Jeanine are besties after everything her family has done to her. Janine telling Naomi how she really feels about her also seems like a pretty bad move, but I cant really blame her for being so furious that she just let her real feelings out. Besides, we know she'll be fine, this show doesn't have the balls to actually kill a main character. Nick is pretty high on the stupid scale too, thinking he can just punch Lawrence right in front of everyone over June, its like everyone on this show is taking stupid pills. 

This is a show that has really gone on way longer than it should have. I've invested enough time into the show that I am going to keep watching, but the show is clearly running on fumes. 

Most Canadians are passively aggressive. We might be sick of the refugees but we wouldn't outright protest.  And I agree. How the heck did we go from hating the Waterfords when the first came to Canada to this? It doesn't make sense. Especially with all the crap that these women are telling everyone of what is happening in Gilead. 

I think Lawrence owes Nick something.  I mean we never really saw outright but I think Nick advocated for Lawrence when he was in jail and threated with hanging. 

I agree with it running on fumes. But I will watch till the bitter end as long as they don't make Lydia the hero.

[SourK]

Tuello was so proud of himself for helping that I knew something would go wrong. The actor keeps playing his scenes with more and more sorrow and gravity, and I like to think it's because the character's confronting his own uselessness and failure.

Imagine if this were a better show, and June and Serena had been apart for a couple of seasons, having different journeys that made sense, and then they suddenly saw each other on the train in the last minute of the season. Imagine how suspenseful and intense that would be. Imagine that the last line wasn't "Do you have a diaper?"

10 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Also, we're supposed to believe that the Canadians feel such hostility against American refugees that when Luke attacks/kills the guy who is trying to kill his wife, they would arrest Luke.

It feels normal to me that he would get arrested if he killed someone. But I do agree that it seemed alarmist for June to conclude that everyone would hate them and try to kill their kid if/when it was revealed that he killed a Canadian.

There's an interesting angle here where maybe she's having an extreme reaction because of the trauma she suffered earlier -- eg, immediately concluding that they have to flee the country before it all happens again. But the show seems to think she's correct, so.

8 hours ago, HMFan said:

I knew when I heard the baby crying that June was going to bump into Serena.

I knew it too and I smiled like the Grinch because I love the idea that, no matter where June goes, there's Serena, just casually standing there.

I also love that June just abandoned her stroller in the middle of the train.

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

They are on the train to Vancouver BC to catch a plane or a boat ride to Hawaii.  Personally the whole thing reminded me of the Jewish people boarding a train thinking they are going to some remote place and then shipped off to the camps. I wouldn't be surprised if they (show) pull a fast one on us and those people on the train are actually headed to New Bethlehem. 

I had the same thought, though I don't know why it would benefit Tuello to put his own people on a train to New Bethlehem.

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

Nick - for publicly going against Lawrence.  He had a great shot of working the system, getting intel and leaving with Rose in tow. 

So far, Nick's whole characterization is that he keeps getting asked to be a spy even though he's bad at it. It doesn't really surprise me that he'd agree to spy for Tuello and then, five minutes later, blow his cover and punch Lawrence in the face.

[greekmom]

2 minutes ago, SourK said:

I had the same thought, though I don't know why it would benefit Tuello to put his own people on a train to New Bethlehem.

I don't think Tuello knows. I honestly believe he believes they were off to Hawaii. Since Eyes are in Toronto and were trying to kill June, I think Lawrence or other Commanders will arrange the transfer of the train to New Bethleham instead of Vancouver.  Plus I can't see how they can move the story along if June and Serena are off in Hawaii. It doesn't make sense to move the story and finish it off in 9 episodes next year.

Now that I think about it. Why muzzle and take Janine and the Martha to a dire fate? Lawrence should have just moved them to New Bethleham as well. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

And so ends another chapter of The Perils of Pauline. 

At this point it's just an Elizabeth Moss vanity project but unfortunately it's set in a world that is interesting to watch with other characters that I care about. So I watch. But I'd be a lot happier if we spent less time with EM's pores and nose hairs and twitchy facial smirks and scowls.

See you next season, I guess.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

Now that I think about it. Why muzzle and take Janine and the Martha to a dire fate? Lawrence should have just moved them to New Bethleham as well. 

It's possible that Lawrence is covering his ass, or that he wasn't behind this at all. There were many other people in the house when the Martha shared that information with Janine. One of them must have overheard and reported it, either to Lawrence or to one of the other commanders. Lawrence is in a precarious situation after Nick publicly punched him, and he can't afford to look like he's going easy on Mayday/the resistance. Or this was done without his knowledge entirely, perhaps by MacKenzie. I also wouldn't be surprised if the person who overhead this was Naomi, and that she wants Janine out of the picture permanently.

Edited November 10, 2022 by chocolatine

[Anela]

I'm watching it right now, and the street looks like a quiet one, like mine. Cars occasionally drive too fast around here, but a lot of people walk their dogs both on the side of the road (no pavements), and in the middle of the road. We move to the side when a car is coming. That car went for her deliberately - they tried to murder her. So, I'm not going to fault her for that. They drove back over her arm, FFS. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Anela

[Anela]

As much as I would love for June and her baby, to be living the good life in Hawaii, I also wonder if that's where they're really going. Maybe Gilead will do something to stop the train, because it really is like Penelope Pitstop, when they're after one woman, over and over and over. Serena looked happy to see her, a familiar face, but June looked like she wanted to smack her.

Janine. Really bad timing for the radical honesty, but I love her, and it must have felt good to say that to Naomi. 

[julia1130]

14 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Mrs. Wheeler wears the pants in that house and Mr. Wheeler is her puppet, she only needs him to be the front man because she cannot being she is a woman so it m

This reminded me of Serena and Lawrence in the very beginning. Until he got a taste of true power and used it and the rules they made together to suppress her. 
 

[circumvent]

The writing was ridiculous, even for this show's standards. All that happened in the episode on the Canada side was because June saw a suspicious car as she walked in the middle of the street, a street that does have a sidewalk. Then the car starts coming at her and she goes: there is a sidewalk there, I should walk over there, maybe get on that  house's porch until the car goes by. 

Instead, she keeps walking, then running, in the middle of the street. Why couldn't the writers just have her be hit by the car that comes out of nowhere? It would be the same story without this ridiculous initial scene.

I agree with the person here who said that the train reminds of the train taking people to death camps during the nazi rule in Europe. Also, doesn't Canada have fast trains? That one didn't look really modern

Next season, June and Serena are living together somewhere, the kids are best friends...