S05.E09: Couple 31

[truthful]

9 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

Exactly! They brought this mess on their own heads, only to have to change all the rules anyway.

The law is not the arbiter of physiology. A 17-year-old does not magically gain maturity on their 18th birthday, they've just reached the stage in life where we've decided that they need to start making their own choices and living with the consequences because that's how you learn to make good choices and learn to cope with the consequences of your inevitable bad decisions. When I was 19 I was "old enough" to make my own choices, I was also still very much a child.

In other news, I thought it was interesting how many times this season I wanted to give characters the "Walter Sobchak Award;" that is to say "You're not wrong...you're just an asshole." Diana, Charles, the Queen all had moments where they were "technically right" but butchered the execution. I felt this particularly with Charles, who is definitely had the right idea about modernizing the Firm, but couldn't get past his own peevish self-righteousness to be a good advocate for his ideas.

I'm not talking about physiology, I'm talking about personal responsibility. You can't absolve her of sin just because of her youth, because to do so would be incredibly insulting to her. You're basically taking away her agency.

[GiuliettaMasina]

1 minute ago, truthful said:

I'm not talking about physiology, I'm talking about personal responsibility. You can't absolve her of sin just because of her youth, because to do so would be incredibly insulting to her. You're basically taking away her agency.

We'll have to agree to disagree that making a poor decision about who to marry is "a sin." I'm not taking away her personal agency--she made choices as a 19 year-old that were hers to make, and she, in fact, did live with the consequences. She also did not have a fully formed brain when she made those choices. Those two things can both be true. No absolution of "sin" necessary. 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, truthful said:

A nineteen year old is, for all intents and purposes, an adult. Diana, no matter how much people want to view her as a child, was old enough to make her own choices in life. She shouldn't be overlooked about her responsibility in this mess. 

3 hours ago, truthful said:

I'm not talking about physiology, I'm talking about personal responsibility. You can't absolve her of sin just because of her youth, because to do so would be incredibly insulting to her. You're basically taking away her agency.

I don't think it's about her not having responsibility as an adolescent, though. She did make the choice to marry, ignoring a lot of things that another 19-year-old might have considered.

But for me the point is that there's just no denying the immense power imbalance of that original situation that gave Charles so much more power. He had far more experience of life both as a person and as a royal. He knew the kind of marriage this was going to be and Diana did not. She was coming into his world, not vice versa, and she had, it seems, no other agenda than to be his wife. He simply had to have had a very different pov on things and there's no way he didn't see her age as well as her naivite as something that would put him securely in control.

[GiuliettaMasina]

Just to be clear--I don't think youth absolves one from responsibility, or more precisely, accountability. When children do wrong, they should absolutely be made to take account for the harm they've caused (even inadvertently), but we should also view their mishaps in the context of their age and life-experience. Diana behaved poorly plenty, I just don't think pretending to share her crush's interests and believing in idealized love as a teenager indicate that she was a manipulator (plenty of other evidence she was to use actually) nor do I view them in the same light as the mature people who looked at her clear lack of experience and thought "Yes, exactly, the perfect candidate to throw into a pressure cooker (while telling them it's a kiddy pool because otherwise they'd run away"). Puh-lenty of women would have been willing to have a marriage of convenience with the PoW and they could have found one if they'd taken their heads out of their asses. That doesn't mean society should step in and save Diana from those decisions she made as a young adult, nor did they. I don't think we can deny she suffered consequences for her poor decision-making. 

[Camera One]

This episode was sort of interesting, built around divorce negotiations.  Though it was also less gripping than the last few episodes, maybe because it was a little repetitive with the stubbornness from both sides.  The scenes with Camilla and the spin doctor guy was at least a little different.   I also liked seeing more of John Major and it seemed like his own marriage was also on the rocks and I expected them to go back to that but they never did.

This was a situation in which the two people were very unsuited to one another and never should have married, and divorce was the best for both of them and should have happened a lot earlier.  The civility between Charles and Diana at the end was clearly not going to last, so I was just waiting for it to go south and it was well acted when the anger bubbled back up again.  Both of them felt like they were the injured party, and in some ways, they both were.  I agree with the comment above that on this show, at least, we never really saw them happy together. 

With "The Crown", we only see occasional glimpses into each of the characters' lives, sometimes with years between featured episodes, so this show is more like vignettes, to the point where it's hard to get a handle on what each of these characters are truly like, from the Queen to Diana.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

This was a situation in which the two people were very unsuited to one another and never should have married, and divorce was the best for both of them and should have happened a lot earlier.  The civility between Charles and Diana at the end was clearly not going to last, so I was just waiting for it to go south and it was well acted when the anger bubbled back up again.  Both of them felt like they were the injured party, and in some ways, they both were.  I agree with the comment above that on this show, at least, we never really saw them happy together. 

It really should have. The marriage was over years before they were finally allowed to divorce. And for what? It would have been better for everyone of they had divorced in the late 80s and moved on with their lives.  

[tennisgurl]

I think that ending would have landed harder if we had seen some good times between Charles and Diana. They did seem to have some real attraction to each other when they first started dating, and a few times when it seemed like things were starting to get better, like in Australia, but the show has mostly focused on Charles being awful and Diana being sad. I have no doubt that they did have some good times, parenting their kids, maybe bonding a bit over being more "modern" people in this ancient royal system, but we never saw a whole lot of that. It was disappointing seeing things blow up so fast between them when they seemed to be getting along at the end, you would hope that Charles could at least be civil to Diana after he got pretty much everything he wanted, besides both of them wasting several years being miserable together, but he still has to whine about how mean his mummy was "making him" marry Diana and how much everything is everyone's fault except for him. 

I felt bad for the husband in the second divorce, I hope he can keep seeing his kids. That lady was clearly the British Kate Pearson from This is Us, no man could ever live up to her perfect father. The other two couples both seemed like they were just ready to call it quits, the first one seemed to be pretty alright with moving on and the third are still clearly pissed. So the Charles and Diana of the three. 

Camilla was being really annoying in this one, she seemed almost as whiny as Charles. Her snarky comments about Diana were a really bad look, at this point it feels like she's kicking her while she's down. She already got what she wanted, she doesn't have to be mean about the woman who's husband she's been sleeping with clearly being miserable. What exactly has she given up anyway? She didn't get to marry Charles, but she has still been with him as the person he loves the most and wants to spend the most time with, and now she gets to marry him, its not like she missed out on kids or that her actual marriage is that bad. 

Poor John Majors. He got into politics, became Prime Minister, only to spend half his time playing family therapist to the royal family.

Edited November 28, 2022 by tennisgurl

[dubbel zout]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

now she gets to marry him

It wasn't a done deal. At that point the C of E didn't allow divorced people to get married while the ex was still alive.

[kassa]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:10 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Honestly, closing the episode with the real footage of the wedding left me feeling cold. Maybe because last season didn’t even bother showing it except for the montage of everyone getting dressed and ready. It worked for that season because it had the tone of impending doom, yet they finally show the footage in the divorce episode and expect us to feel sad that the “fairy tale” ended?

To me it was underscoring the public investment in them as a couple. Hundreds of thousands of people were in the streets (and hundreds of millions more at home watching tv), celebrating the wedding, having expectations. Every one of those people in that footage was going to have an opinion on who was to blame. In a way, there were way more than 3 people in that marriage. 

[cardigirl]

When I watched this episode (I loved it) I knew that it would not land well with many people. I don't know if that final conversation between Charles and Diana actually took place, but I can well imagine that something like that happened. Very well acted by both actors in that scene. Totally heartbreaking and also showing how irreconcilable they were. Charles wanted Camilla in his life, Diana didn't want to share him. Arrogance on his part in thinking that both Camilla and Diana would be accepting of that treatment, but it appears Camilla did accept it as standard operating procedure for royalty. (BTW, Parker Bowles had numerous extramarital affairs throughout his marriage to Camilla, including with several of Camilla's friends. But that was not highlighted in the series.) 

Having gone through a divorce myself, it is devastating, especially if you're the party that doesn't want to dissolve the marriage. I think Diana always hoped Charles would come to love her, but she had no idea how to attract him. 

Loved that they ended with the scenes of THE wedding. As @kassa said above, the entire world adored the match and had such high hopes for the union. Like every marriage that starts out with joy and some apprehensions, this one fizzled in spectacular fashion, AND in front of the entire world. That's why the framing of the episode was so great. All of those other marriages started out hopeful and joyous too, but ended badly. Diana and Charles had to play their marriage out publicly. 

[Peace 47]

On 11/27/2022 at 12:06 AM, Camera One said:

I also liked seeing more of John Major and it seemed like his own marriage was also on the rocks and I expected them to go back to that but they never did.

I totally did not get the point of that non-argument with his wife, where she was so pissed that she wasn’t even listening to him be obliviously excited about the possibility of mediation of the Wales’ divorce.  I looked it up, and I think he has only ever had 1 wife, and they’ve been married forever, so why make this a story point here?  Was the point that unhappy marriages are not limited to divorce courts?

I don’t think the Queen had any really witty lines this season like she at least had in S3-S4, until this episode had a spark of one in her telling John Major that he would be a good family law mediator because he did such wonderful things in Northern Ireland.  But Imelda Staunton didn’t really play the line as the Queen being aware of the wry wit of thinking a global diplomat was the only one who could help her two lost causes.  I would like to see more of the Queen’s alleged good sense of humor or at least a bit more humor.

I agree that the last scene with Charles and Diana was well-acted, but I also didn’t really get the dramatic point of the scene.  If there had been some closure there, maybe, but it was just another scene of showing how much they dislike each other, and we saw that many other times.  The season really needed a tighter edit.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Peace 47

[Inquisitionist]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:51 PM, Spartan Girl said:

She was 19. 19.

Perhaps a slightly older woman with a more functional family that wasn’t so enthusiastic to get in with the royals might have thought it through more, but that wasn’t the case here. Plus, he was the freaking prince of Wales, and that would be enough to turn anyone’s head. It’s not like she was the only person that rushed into marriage because she was in love (or thought she was).

Where the heck was her family in all of this??? I think Diana was very ill-served by her father and sisters, who should have prepared her better for the "business" side of the marriage she was entering.  She was 19 chronologically, but as Anne put it, Diana was really younger than 19 and Charles was really older than 32. 

On 11/11/2022 at 10:20 PM, peridot said:

I liked the framing of the divorce process by bringing in those other couples.  The second couple really got to me - the husband must have been brought up in poverty and was so afraid of not having money that he couldn't imagine cutting back.

Ugh.  I Ffwd'd through most of those. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

Where the heck was her family in all of this??? I think Diana was very ill-served by her father and sisters, who should have prepared her better for the "business" side of the marriage she was entering.  She was 19 chronologically, but as Anne put it, Diana was really younger than 19 and Charles was really older than 32. 

The show has decided not to delve into Diana's family for whatever reason.  Taking my reply over to history talk.

[Roseanna]

What bothers me, is not how Diana acted when she was in her teens and early twenties, but how she in 90ies, as a woman in her thirties, a mother of two, as an international superstar and after several affairs herself, still thinks that whatever Charles and Camilla had done in the past, justifies her own action many years later against them, whatever consequences on her sons.

I wish she could have realized that she was too young to marry *anybody*. I don't mean blaming herself for the decision of a young naive girl, but freeing herself as an adult woman from her continueing emotional dependence on Charles and admitting the hard truth that, even without Camilla, the marriage couldn't have succeeded.

In the previous season, Charles's accusation that Diana embranced AIDS-patients only for puff herself and hurt Camilla was completely incomprehensible, but in in this last conversation Charles wasn't wrong to suspect that in her interview she on purpose tried to prevent to become the king. Diana's answer about her motives was clearly a lie for as a master communicator she could chose her words and knew well how they were interpreted.

[PRgal]

I think there was a lot of family pressure from both Diana and the BRF.  It’s kind of like how some teens are pressured to attend certain universities because of family legacy, even if they want to go somewhere else!  Or not at all.  Or pressure to major in certain areas.  

[Bunnyette]

On 11/25/2022 at 5:33 PM, GaT said:

Diana was the first "modern woman" who became part of the BRF, the last royal wedding before Charles & Diana was Margaret & Antony Armstrong-Jones in 1960, & the last time before that was when King George VI  married Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon in 1923, which was the previous time a woman was brought into the family. They didn't have the internet yet, but the media was completely different than what they knew, & they apparently never understood that the world changes & what worked in 1923 wasn't going to work in 1981.

No the last Royal wedding was Princess Anne to Mark Phillips in 1974.

yes John Major did mediate the divorce settlement and also managed the trust fund Diana left for her sons

[GaT]

50 minutes ago, Bunnyette said:

No the last Royal wedding was Princess Anne to Mark Phillips in 1974.

Yes, but that wasn't a woman being brought into the family, Anne was born part of the family. I was only talking about weddings that brought in a woman.

[blackwing]

This episode was tough to watch.  Charles and Camilla really come across very poorly.  Especially Camilla.  "I've given up everything".  Oh poor you.  What exactly did she give up?  Maybe her privacy and her reputation, but it's not like she didn't get anything in return.  She got the love and attention of the heir to the throne.  We've seen in this show that she wasn't much of a wife to her husband and didn't seem to be a particularly good mother to her kids.  Then she's asked about wanting to be with Charles and to get the benefit of everything that entails, including becoming Queen.  Ugh.

I do wonder if Charles and Diana had that conversation in her apartment while she cooked scrambled eggs, but like many conversations on this show, I'm assuming it was made up.

On 11/13/2022 at 2:02 AM, paramitch said:

I found the "When Harry Met Sally" divorcing couple vignettes kind of distracting here. They were beautifully acted, but they felt sort of extraneous to me. It's a huge amount of wasted screen time just for the punchline of "Another marriage has ended -- this time it's the marriage of the Prince and Princess of Wales."

I also dislike that in almost every case in those vignettes, the woman was subtly shown to be the one out of love or leaving, not the man.

This is where this show gets really uncomfortable for me (as with certain scenes between Elizabeth/Philip from this or past seasons, as with scenes between Charles/Elizabeth, Elizabeth/Margaret, etc etc). They are simply writing exercises in which Peter Morgan imagines what he thinks each person would say, revealing his own personal biases in the process.

Yep.  Not sure why it was always the man at fault or "not fault", causing the woman to decide to end the marriage.  Was that a subtle suggestion by Peter Morgan that Diana wanted to end the marriage?  I think from earlier episodes it is clear that Diana was trying to make it work and was pleading for help from within the BRF, and didn't get it.

I do get the point of these vignettes.  Marriage is tough.  Ordinary people have a hard time and split up.  It's natural, it happens.  Charles and Diana are just like any other couple that failed at their marriage.  Except I don't buy it.  1) Charles and Diana had money.  2) Charles and Diana face lots of scrutiny and pressure and that made it all the more worse.

The scenes of the real life wedding at the end of the episode, with thousands of people crowding every available plot of footspace outside Buckingham Palace, made me sad.  

[paramitch]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:54 PM, blackwing said:

This episode was tough to watch.  Charles and Camilla really come across very poorly.  Especially Camilla.  "I've given up everything".  Oh poor you.  What exactly did she give up?  Maybe her privacy and her reputation, but it's not like she didn't get anything in return.  She got the love and attention of the heir to the throne.  We've seen in this show that she wasn't much of a wife to her husband and didn't seem to be a particularly good mother to her kids.  Then she's asked about wanting to be with Charles and to get the benefit of everything that entails, including becoming Queen.  Ugh.

I do wonder if Charles and Diana had that conversation in her apartment while she cooked scrambled eggs, but like many conversations on this show, I'm assuming it was made up.

Yep.  Not sure why it was always the man at fault or "not fault", causing the woman to decide to end the marriage.  Was that a subtle suggestion by Peter Morgan that Diana wanted to end the marriage?  I think from earlier episodes it is clear that Diana was trying to make it work and was pleading for help from within the BRF, and didn't get it.

I do get the point of these vignettes.  Marriage is tough.  Ordinary people have a hard time and split up.  It's natural, it happens.  Charles and Diana are just like any other couple that failed at their marriage.  Except I don't buy it.  1) Charles and Diana had money.  2) Charles and Diana face lots of scrutiny and pressure and that made it all the more worse.

The scenes of the real life wedding at the end of the episode, with thousands of people crowding every available plot of footspace outside Buckingham Palace, made me sad.  

I dislike Morgan (as noted) but I do think the breakup was inevitable and unfixable. Charles and Diana's money wasn't the problem. The crown was. He never would have married her at all if it were not due to his allegiances/expected duties to that crown. Do I think it's gross? Did it victimize poor Diana? Hell, yes. But it is a factor beyond "they had money." The Queen expected lives to be wrecked and they would just move on for the greater good (like with Margaret). Only these lives didn't fit her suggested puzzle (and didn't stay silent). 

It's weird how sad the marriage footage flashbacks make me. I mean, I was a kid and I set my alarm. I got up early. I adored every second of the wedding right down to the balcony kiss. The reality is so very very sad.

Quote

Charles and Camilla really come across very poorly.  Especially Camilla.  "I've given up everything".  Oh poor you.  What exactly did she give up?  Maybe her privacy and her reputation, but it's not like she didn't get anything in return.  She got the love and attention of the heir to the throne.  We've seen in this show that she wasn't much of a wife to her husband and didn't seem to be a particularly good mother to her kids.  Then she's asked about wanting to be with Charles and to get the benefit of everything that entails, including becoming Queen.  Ugh.

I am a Diana apologist but I thought Camilla came off pretty balanced here (and I am not a huge fan of Peter Morgan's treatment of the women overall). I think -- given her specific circumstances, acknowledging her own sin here -- that Camilla can be seen as having "paid" for her feelings/relationship with Charles. I don't think that level of scrutiny is easy for any human on the planet, especially not someone designated as the visibly plain "horse-faced" evil witch who happened to be breaking up Charles's marriage to a seriously goddess-like lovely beautiful and humanitarian woman. Which was her situation -- one she would have changed except that convention (and "the crown") demanded she serve that role.

So I actually liked how Camilla tried to brush off her discomfort but said a few words (and then apologized again). I think based on other accounts that seems to be pretty fair -- she knows the situation and who she is. It's interesting to "fast forward," as she is certainly adored by the people around her, by palace staff, even by many of the British people at this point.

It's such a great example of how these people do not live by normal rules and have no idea what privilege is. They really don't. "I need a house," oh here, take mine. "I need a horse," oh here, borrow my uncle's. "I'm in a bit of a financial mess," oh dear, well, there are options for that.

I honestly wish -- more than anything -- that "The Crown" had a single episode fashioned around an ordinary person DEVASTATED by the actions of these privileged twits, just to balance it all out. Because, watching, it's so easy to fall into it all, to go, "Oh, here's Margaret spending months at so-and-so's chateau, or Diana spending months on this or that friend's yacht at HUGE expense..." I mean, let's put this into the perspective of a person in the UK battling illness, or who can't pay to get their kid's tooth removed, etc.

I feel like this exacerbates the problem with the show. At least briefly in earlier seasons, we had glimpses of this gulf. But the past few just fly past it like, "Well, Rich Royal People Problems..."

Edited December 14, 2022 by paramitch
missing word

[foxfreakinmulder]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:54 PM, blackwing said:

I do wonder if Charles and Diana had that conversation in her apartment while she cooked scrambled eggs, but like many conversations on this show, I'm assuming it was made up.

I agree, if Charles even went to see Diana that conversation was private and probably nothing like what we saw. I don't know if the writers are wanting us to sympathize with either of them at this point. Well, I have a feeling I know what season 6 is going to be about, not something I'm looking forward to watching.

[Roseanna]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:45 PM, paramitch said:

I honestly wish -- more than anything -- that "The Crown" had a single episode fashioned around an ordinary person DEVASTATED by the actions of these privileged twits, just to balance it all out. Because, watching, it's so easy to fall into it all, to go, "Oh, here's Margaret spending months at so-and-so's chateau, or Diana spending months on this or that friend's yacht at HUGE expense..." I mean, let's put this into the perspective of a person in the UK battling illness, or who can't pay to get their kid's tooth removed, etc.

There was the wife of Philip's private secretary (or rather, a guy to have fun), Mrs Parker who, after she had for years endured her cheating husbad who (which I think was the worst) had completely neglected their childen, was asked not to sue divorce by Tommy Lascelles, or at least delay the divorce supplication by the Queen, in order to protect Philip's reputation.

There was also Michael Fagan who came to Elizabeth's bedroom, but didn't blame her but Mrs Thatcher who, of course, as Prime Minister was responsible for the government's economic policy.

[smartymarty]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:45 AM, paramitch said:

Charles and Diana's money wasn't the problem. The crown was. He never would have married her at all if it were not due to his allegiances/expected duties to that crown.

It really seems like the marriage, to Charles, was like the arranged marriages of royals for centuries--a non-divorced, virgin, to create the next heir to the throne. But mix in 20th Century perspective on marriage as not merely a contract, but of love, which is what Diana thought was happening because that is how Charles acted, and you get this mess.

I did feel a little sympathy for Camilla. She loved someone she wasn't allowed to marry. Yes, he could have abdicated, but the royals saw abdication as a terrible thing to do, not a romantic one.

Hated the "Harry Met Sally" vignettes. So contrived, and done before in this series. And the conversation at the end, I just couldn't place much importance on, since I assumed it was totally made up by the writers.

[Scarlett45]

On 11/25/2022 at 1:58 PM, GiuliettaMasina said:

This is the crux of why, despite all her subsequent bad behavior (and there was plenty), I still side more with Diana. Plenty of teenagers pretend to be more interested in their crushes' interests than they actually are. That's not manipulation, that's being immature, and it comes along with the territory when you are an actual child. And, yes, I absolutely consider a 19-year-old a child; the law's got to draw a line somewhere, but that doesn't change brain chemistry and physiological development. If the royal family was looking for someone with a mature understanding of how marriage can be a partnership in ways other than romantic, they should've found an adult.

I can agree with you here. Of all of them, Diana had the least agency and social experience. She also became a mother very quickly after the marriage. She was YOUNG and no one was on “her side”. 
 

If all the adults could put their egos aside and just MOVE ON. The marriage is over, it can’t be fixed, like any other divorce there is so much hurt and heightened emotions. 

On 11/26/2022 at 7:55 AM, truthful said:

I'm not talking about physiology, I'm talking about personal responsibility. You can't absolve her of sin just because of her youth, because to do so would be incredibly insulting to her. You're basically taking away her agency.

I think Diana did have personal responsibility, (and the legal and social ability to make her own decisions), but given that she was just this side of legal adulthood, her mistake was a lot more understandable. There is a “shouldve known better” for people that have more experience in a specific area (which is often correlated to age) because they have been through xyz scenario before. 

 

On 12/3/2022 at 4:37 AM, Roseanna said:

What bothers me, is not how Diana acted when she was in her teens and early twenties, but how she in 90ies, as a woman in her thirties, a mother of two, as an international superstar and after several affairs herself, still thinks that whatever Charles and Camilla had done in the past, justifies her own action many years later against them, whatever consequences on her sons.

I can get behind your thinking. 

[Mrsmaul2021]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:39 PM, Spartan Girl said:

 

What exactly stopped him from following in Uncle Nazi’s footsteps and abdicating so he could marry Camilla when he had the chance? And why didn’t Camilla pick him instead of marrying Andrew? The answer is the same: Charles wanted to be king, and Camilla couldn’t let go of Andrew. Dickie and the Queen Mum might have meddled, but you can’t play the victim forever.

 

 

 

And this is why I don't buy the grand love between these two.  Everything they did, every act was  out of sheer selfishness. They both wanted their cake,  eat it too and expected their spouses to roll over, shut up and accept it because they were so in looooovvvveee. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Mrsmaul2021