Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[FurryFury]

Back during 3A, Once and its fandom actually helped me while I was going through a rough phase (I also dove into shipping CS at that point, although it didn't last), so I guess I'm still watching partly because of my loyalty and hope that maybe the show will miraculously recover after this horrible season just like after 2B. But I realize this is most likely moot.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

Hope watching is a good term. I think if I fully hated everything, or even most things, about a show, I wouldn't keep watching just to snark about it. I have just quit watching shows when I've realized that I wasn't enjoying them -- sometimes turning off the TV in mid-episode when the last thing I liked was ruined. But the tricky ones are when there's still something I like, or especially when I still love some of the characters, and I care what happens to them, so I don't really want to stop watching, but it's sometimes painful. Then the only way to get through the rough parts in between the good parts is with a healthy dose of snark.

 

I guess there's also a part of me that hopes that by throwing the snark out into the universe, someone might actually get a clue, like I can somehow influence the writing with the power of my will. Yeah, crazy magical thinking, but it's part of the hope. I keep watching, hoping maybe they had a grand epiphany and realized where they went wrong. That's where Twitter doesn't help, because you can see that they aren't seeing a problem and are really proud of what they're doing.

[FabulousTater]

I guess there's also a part of me that hopes that by throwing the snark out into the universe, someone might actually get a clue, like I can somehow influence the writing with the power of my will. Yeah, crazy magical thinking, but it's part of the hope.

Ha, I never thought of it this way, but I totally get it and I think that's true for me too. By using the boards to point out "Look, here are your problems, show. Fix these things and I won' t have to snark you a new hole every episode" maybe they'll stumble upon it, or it will get compiled by a market demo researcher who will pass it along to TPTB, and a light bulb will finally go off in their heads and the show will get better. It's part wishful thinking, but also part sincere desire for something you like to be better. I mean, if you didn't care at all you wouldn't wish for it to be better, would you?

 

The danger for this show right now though isn't all the criticism it gets. It's all the people that have stopped caring, and stopped criticizing, and ultimately stopped watching. And going by the numbers that really matter (the ratings), that's a lot of people. If A&E know what's good for them and if they want to get a season 6, they'll start taking a good long look at some of the criticisms that they were getting prior to the drastic ratings fall and the criticisms they continue to get from people who are still watching because they (foolishly?) hope that it will get better. I know it might be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding what are legit problems and what are just insane rants by militant factions in the fandom, but they dug this hole and fell into it all by themselves, and acknowledging their problems AND fixing them is the only way out of it.

[Shanna Marie]

I know it might be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding what are legit problems and what are just insane rants by militant factions in the fandom

That's why I try hard to sound moderately reasonable and to be as objective as possible. I do have my favorites and non-favorites, but I hope that I don't sound like a ranting partisan with an agenda. And no matter how much I enjoy a relationship, I will shoot myself if I ever turn into a squeeing shipper. I don't let that become the lens through which I see the show. I'm also trying to stick to constructive criticism so I don't sound like just a hater. Not that I have too many illusions of anyone actually seeing any of this, but you never know.

[mjgchick]

I pretty much watch because I like the actors. I'll watch anything with a strong female lead. I also think Hook and Emma are pretty together even in .5 second scenes where they are wet.

[Serena]

Is this clickbait or queerbait on E! Online's part? I know there's a "bait" somewhere (spoilers because there's a sneak peek at the link).

[YaddaYadda]

That's nothing.  If she's choosing to take a line out of context even though she has context, then she needs to just go away.  How do these people get their jobs anyway?  Know someone who is well connected?  Sleep their way to the top?

[FurryFury]

Ugh. Just ugh.

[Shanna Marie]

I may be an old-school journalist who got my journalism degree before anyone had heard of the Internet, but I figure that if you can tell who a journalist ships, they're doing journalism wrong, even when it's entertainment journalism.

[Curio]

Yeah...I wouldn't call Kristin a "journalist." She's more of a glorified fangirl who happens to get paid by an entertainment website and baits other fangirls into clicking her articles to increase the site's web traffic.

[shipperx]

From Curio in the "Sympathy for the De Vil" thread:

I agree that there is legitimate criticism to be had but between here and Tumblr, it's getting to the point that there is nothing positive anymore. It's all nitpicking and this sucks and that's horrible and there's anger over the storylines before they even happen (from spoilers). I can't tell you how much anger I've seen on Tumblr about this line or that line in a sneak peek, and then it airs and I'm all, "THIS is what launched a thousand blog posts? Seriously?" It just feels like people have decided that they hate Plot Line X and rather than just ignore Plot Line X, they flip their lids over everything even remotely related to Plot Line X, no matter how innocuous it is in actuality.

I don't understand the point of hate-watching. Life is too short for that shit. If there is truly nothing redeeming about something anymore and there is more to dislike than there is to like, it's okay to stop. You don't have to finish every book you start reading, it's okay to stop a movie a quarter of the way into it if you don't care, and it's okay to let a show go that's changed too much for you.

I just feel like any positive comments are getting lost in a sea of doom and gloom, and frankly, it's starting to not be fun for me.

Sometimes people just want to be entertained. As much as I'm a rabid fangirl with the discussing and fanfic and gifsets, I'm also pretty easy to please. Just entertain me for the hour a week I watch you. If you no longer entertain me -- if there starts to be more that I don't like than I do -- I'll let you go.

Yes to this entire post. The hatred is just too exhausting. It's a TV show. Sometimes it's hurried, dumb, an ill planned. That happens. It's not something that is finely crafted over extended periods of time. It's churned out quickly because it's network TV. It's always going to have 'could have done better' as part of its nature because of the way network TV is produced. It just isn't crafted to withstand exacting scrutiny.

So is it fun? If yes, I watch. If no, I consider stopping.

And my experience with fandoms for shows is that they can be quite fun but entropic in nature. They all inevitably devolve into partisan nitpicking negativity because of the nature of online fan interaction. Love my time in fandom, but fandom can be crazy (and often is). It's not just a Once thing, though the negativity pervasive in Once's fandom isnt fun these days.

Edited April 23, 2015 by shipperx

[Curio]

It's not just a Once thing, though the negativity pervasive in Once's fandom isnt fun these days.

 

I think the negativity right now is pretty reflective of the show at the moment. Yes, there will always be negativity because online fandom is very nit-picky about their shows, but I've never seen it this bad in the Once fandom. Even the casual viewer who I watch the show with every week thinks the show has taken a huge turn for the worse this half season, and she's usually one of those viewers who just goes along for the ride and enjoys nearly every episode. I think the amount of loyal fans who have normally been very intelligent about their discussions and have written some of the more meaningful metas online who are now coming out and saying they're nearly done with the show is very telling.

[mjgchick]

Even my godson haven't liked seeing Emma so sad and he's only 8. He loves Emma and wants her to be happy. I feel bad. lol

[RadioGirl27]

There is a lot of negativity because this season has been terrible. Except for the fans who love absolutely everything (and by everything I mean literally everything, even the Marian was Zelena all this time twist), the biggest part of the fandom is really deceived with the season, expecially this second part. And, if this is happening with the hard-core fans, I don't want to imagine what is happening with the casual viewers.

[Shanna Marie]

I think some of the spirals of negativity on the community has something to do with the fact that the community is so strong. When a show I just watch without discussing takes a turn for the worse, it's very easy to just stop watching. But when a big part of your enjoyment is the friends you've made in the community and getting together to discuss, stopping the show means losing that community. If you can't participate in the discussion because you're not watching, you've lost more than just a TV show. That means the community is probably going to go negative if the show takes a downturn because you're sticking around for the community even though you don't have much positive to say anymore. It's almost like a wake -- the thing we all once loved seems to be gone, and we're mourning what we've lost. I'm not even at the point where a past season positivity thread would help because talking about the things I used to love about this show would just make me angry about what's been done to it since then and all the lost potential.

[Curio]

And, if this is happening with the hard-core fans, I don't want to imagine what is happening with the casual viewers.

 

You don't have to imagine what's happening with the casual viewers. Just take a look at the viewership ratings - the show has lost nearly half of its premiere audience.

 

So, I came across this Twitter exchange between Adam and a fan:

 

Adam why do you answer only outbursts and not real questions?

the issue is most questions are either spoilers or too complex for 140 chars.  Thanks for understanding!

 

I have a desperate request for anyone who has a Twitter and is willing to bug Adam until he responds to you. Someone, anyone, tell this man to come check out these forums. No 140 character restrictions! Adam, you can answer all of those pesky questions with as long of a response as you want!

Edited April 23, 2015 by Curio

[FurryFury]

He can also answer Tumblr questions like some creators do. Twitter isn't the only way to interact with the public (and definitely not the best way).

[tennisgurl]

There are so many ways to interact with fans, and explain creative choices, this needs to happen! He cant ignore the fact that the majority of the fans are upset, and don't understand the thought process going into the writing. These are your fans! Give them something! 

 

Fandom can really be a "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times" kind of thing. It can make your enjoyment of a show even greater, but if the show takes a bad turn, or fandom fights get out of control, it can hurt all the more. You put all this time into a fandom, only for the show, or even the parts of the fandom itself, to betray you. I`m used to some negativity in all fandoms, but its usually easy to find the positive blogs. Lately, even the positive blogs are either starting to complain, or are stretching the happy so much, I don't agree with them anymore. 

 

Being a fan can be so freaking draining. There needs to be some kind of inter-fandom support group!

Edited April 23, 2015 by tennisgurl

[OnceUponAJen]

Twitter really is the most superficial platform there is to interact with other people, and I'm not very fond of it. There's NOT a whole lot you can say in 140 characters, and maybe they prefer it that way? Since you're forced to brevity, there can't be any really serious discussion about anything.

Edited April 23, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Souris]

Twitter really is the most superficial platform there is to interact with other people, and I'm not very fond of it. There's NOT a whole lot you can say in 140 characters, and maybe they prefer it that way? Since you're forced to brevity, there can't be any really serious discussion about anything.

 

I think that's probably part of it. I mean, look how shallow the show itself is now. The writers can't even be bothered to tell a complex & resonant story when it's their job, let alone participating in in-depth discussions when interacting with fans.

 

Let us never forget that Kristin from E! has a long, long history of being annoying and crap.

[sharky]

And then remember that before Kristen's history with E!, she was Wanda. And despite the different name, she was still annoying as crap.

[YaddaYadda]

Is she the SwanFire shipper?  The same one who was talking about how August is back now?  Or is that another person?

[Souris]

Is she the SwanFire shipper?  The same one who was talking about how August is back now?  Or is that another person?

 

That's Natalie Abrams from Entertainment Weekly.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Fandom can really be a "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times" kind of thing. It can make your enjoyment of a show even greater, but if the show takes a bad turn, or fandom fights get out of control, it can hurt all the more. You put all this time into a fandom, only for the show, or even the parts of the fandom itself, to betray you. I`m used to some negativity in all fandoms, but its usually easy to find the positive blogs. Lately, even the positive blogs are either starting to complain, or are stretching the happy so much, I don't agree with them anymore. 

 

Being a fan can be so freaking draining. There needs to be some kind of inter-fandom support group!

I'm a hope watcher, as discussed in that article linked a couple days ago, so yeah the positive blogs used to really help me reconcile some of the things I was unsatisfied with in the show but I'm having a harder time finding the middle of the road anymore. I always avoided the nervous nellie "OMG if Emma goes dark do you think she will kill Hook and Henry?" blogs but I'm having a harder time agreeing with the ones that think Regina has had same awesome redemption as Hook or that seem to fall into last weeks "reblog if you are 99% happy with everything happening on OUAT right now". I think there used to be a wider middle ground of fandom between all negativity and saying that you aren't bothered by anything with the show right now. I think for the most part this forum hits a lot of the points that frustrate me and I'm grateful for it. And hey when I feel like it gets to negative I just walk away for a couple days.

 

Twitter really is the most superficial platform there is to interact with other people, and I'm not very fond of it. There's NOT a whole lot you can say in 140 characters, and maybe they prefer it that way? Since you're forced to brevity, there can't be any really serious discussion about anything.

I think this is exactly why Twitter is Adam's platform of choice. Look how defensive he's gotten the past couple weeks about the episodes, especially the Zarian reveal. Twitter gives him the "best" of both worlds--he gets to bite back at the BAs and there is no room to give long explanations for their story choices. He can't be accused of not interacting with the fans but he doesn't have to be accountable for more than 140 character answers. I don't think he would ever go for fan interaction on another platform because it's not something he is prepared, or wants, to defend.

 

And then remember that before Kristen's history with E!, she was Wanda. And despite the different name, she was still annoying as crap.

Haha plus I can't imagine she has much love for CS fans who accurately called her out on her rigged couples poll. My hatred for Wanda/Kristen goes back to my scars from when she was one of the only spoiler sources during my Alias and The Office days. Any Alias fans remember when she said Eyebrows was the most awesome character and it would be impossible to hate her? Challenge accepted...and oh look still hands down one of my most hated characters on any show I've ever watched. So this new SQ love she seems to have acquired is nothing haha. Maybe she and Natalie Abrams are besties.

Edited April 23, 2015 by buildmeupbuttercup

[sharky]

Haha plus I can't imagine she has much love for CS fans who accurately called her out on her rigged couples poll. My hatred for Wanda/Kristen goes back to my scars from when she was one of the only spoiler sources during my Alias and The Office days. Any Alias fans remember when she said Eyebrows was the most awesome character and it would be impossible to hate her? Challenge accepted...and oh look still hands down one of my most hated characters on any show I've ever watched. So this new SQ love she seems to have acquired is nothing haha. Maybe she and Natalie Abrams are besties.

Ok, first not to sound like a dummy, but who was Eyebrows? That being said, yes and yes! I was an Office and Alias during this time. She was blacklisted by both fandoms for good reason! Ugh. As for Natalie, I don't know what her dumb excuse is. I'm like Shanna Marie -- lots of journalism under my belt and I hate what these entertainment "reporters" are passing off as news. It's definitely not anything I would be proud to put my byline on.

Edited April 23, 2015 by sharky

[Souris]

Eyebrows was Vaughn's godawful annoying wife, played by Melissa George. I had repressed Wanda's "impossible to hate" nonsense. LOL! That tells you all you need to know about her, given that the vast majority of the Alias fans HATED Lauren & MG.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Souris

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Ok, first not to sound like a dummy, but who was Eyebrows? That being said, yes and yes! I was an Office and Alias during this time. She was blacklisted by both fandoms for good reason! Ugh. As for Natalie, I don't know what her dumb excuse is. I'm like Shanna Marie -- lots of journalism under my belt and I hate what these entertainment "reporters" are passing off as news. It's definitely not anything I would be proud to put my byline on.

Souris beat me to it. For the life of me I couldn't remember her name (Lauren!) I guess because nobody in the fandom referred to her as that. She was absolutely insufferable with her eyebrows that were 6 shades darker than her hair and mumbling all her lines like she had marbles in her mouth.

 

I should whisper this quietly so that A&E can't hear me but ::I am very grateful they haven't thrown a character like her at CS to up the angst quotient.::

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not so sure that having the showrunners try to answer questions in a longer forum is the best idea. I've read their interviews and they just dig themselves deeper in a lot of cases. It also takes some pretty thick skin to be able to deal with what would most likely be a lot of criticism and it would be hard not to take it personally. I get that. I know I wouldn't be able to put up with the whining about how x character or y ship isn't getting enough screen time or the ridiculous panic about whatever the fandom is in meltdown about this week.

 

That said, I only tend to read stuff from the more level headed members of the fandom. These are people who enjoy the show, but aren't out there freaking out about every little thing and many, many of them are just as irritated and annoyed with this show as the rabid shippers/character-stans. This half season is just not working for a whole host of reasons and I hope that after the finale airs in a few weeks that they do sit down and evaluate why it didn't work so well. Maybe do take a peek at fan forums and comments. I want them to look at the reasonable criticism and understand that it's not just shippers whining because Emma/Hook didn't kiss long enough, but because they wrote a story and gave no payoff for it. Also, I really, really need someone to understand that this is at its heart a fun show about fairytale characters, it's not a dark drama, so please, dear God I beg you, bring back the humor and the fun.

Edited April 23, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[sharky]

Eyebrows was Vaughn's godawful annoying wife, played by Melissa George. I had repressed Wanda's "impossible to hate" nonsense. LOL! That tells you all you need to know about her, given that the vast majority of the Alias fans HATED Lauren & MG.

That's who I thought you were referring to but doubted myself. Because who in the hell would call her "impossible to hate" except someone who has no idea what they're talking about.... well, right, now that makes sense.

[ParadoxLost]

I think that its a little naïve to think that reading forums or listening to fan critique is the silver bullet to fix the show or even a step towards fixing the show.  This is their life's work.  Most of them have education and vast experience in this field.  They know what is wrong.  I'd speculate that they are just powerless to fix it. 

 

This show follows a pattern.  The A arc is good.  The B arc sucks.  Even the B arcs tend to have one or two good episodes or the finale is great.  They don't just pull the good scenes or episodes out of thin air.  They know how to do it. They just can't do it that often or consistently.

 

I suspect that budget or the realities of putting on more than twenty episodes is the cause of the  problems and OUAT is the type of show that just can't hide the challenges from the viewers.  The A arc is strong because they get a break to recharge and they have real time to plan out the arc.  Its still shallow at times because this show just is but it tends to have really good ideas and great moments in almost every episode. 

 

The B arc is a hot mess with a few (one?) redeeming episodes because they are tired or didn't have time to lay it out properly and only the gems of ideas that really spark interest in the writer's room shine.  These are the ideas they think about all season just waiting to write it because they love the idea.  This is Hook and Emma go time traveling. Cruella inspired everyone..fandom... writers..everyone.  The angry birds scene is the kind of thing that can only be thought up when you are ruminating on the character in your spare time. Same with Hook and the Emma button on his cell phone. 

 

Last week likely would have been almost universally adored if they hadn't fumbled the ending.  But even Emma is a pretty strong sign that they know something has gone wrong.  You don't put crypt keeper make-up on Emma to prove she crossed a line in killing Cruella unless you know its not adequately set up; but you also know its too late to fix it.

 

On the bright side I have strong hope that 5A will be vastly improved no matter how unnerving 4B is in its awfulness.  5B is going to be terrible though.  Maybe not as bad as 4B because I bet having to make sure they didn't damage 'Frozen' hurt planning for the second half more than usual.  OUAT would be much better if it were a 13 episode season every year.  That or they need to increase the writing staff and have teams working each arc with the show runner making sure everything stays aligned.  But that won't happen because this is a business. 

 

It would be better for everyone if the writers just disengaged.  No interacting with fandom.  No interviews.  Just cut out the noise.  But they can't do it.  Someone needs an interview.  They have to promote the show.  You have to engage with your customers.

 

And we think it would be better if they just admitted the problem.  It wouldn't.  I've seen a showrunner do that before (BSG) and it was a bad idea.  It came across as throwing the writers, director, and actor that were central to that episode under the bus. You've got to protect your team. 

 

Are you getting the idea I'm projecting yet?  Well let me make it clear.  I work in a bubbling cauldron of chaos and fandom interaction is like my inbox.  Fandom is griping about all kind of stuff and someone says 'have you done X, I emailed you.'  My response ' When did you send it?' Theirs 'an hour ago' Mine 'I'm haven't made it to Tuesday's email yet'  There is too much to do and they'll answer you sometimes on twitter or interviews, but they really don't have interest in explaining why they are not working to their potential and we don't really want to know.  We just want the show better.  They can't get the things they need to make the show better. Stalemate. Corporate's fault.

Edited April 24, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

The Once Facebook page posted a link to the EOnline, who were given an "exclusive sneak peek" for this Sunday's episode, where Emma says "

"I need you!" to Regina

.  So are they planning to boycott this episode too, or is it too juicy to miss?

[Dani-Ellie]

You don't put crypt keeper make-up on Emma to prove she crossed a line in killing Cruella unless you know its not adequately set up; but you also know its too late to fix it.

 

The thing is, though, I think it's not even inadequately set up, just not entirely tied together. This is where I think Once benefits from marathoning it versus watching week to week. Because if you think about Emma's story from the start of the show we have her: being dragged into town by her kid, finding a friend, becoming deputy, finding Graham, losing Graham before anything could even get off the ground, becoming sheriff, having her friend set up for murder by her kid's adoptive mother, finding out fairy tales are real, fighting a dragon, finding her parents, getting sent to the Enchanted Forest, fighting Cora, finding Hook, making friends with a giant, figuring out a way back to Storybrooke, having Regina try to kill her for half a season, finding Neal, losing Neal, losing Henry to Neverland, going to Neverland, facing being an orphan, trying to find Henry while dealing with Pan's mind games, finding Neal again, saving Henry, losing everything due to the reversal of Pan's curse, losing an 8-month long relationship that ended in a proposal, going back to Storybrooke, dealing with Zelena, losing Neal again, dealing with her magic, the birth of her baby brother, her time travel adventure with Hook, finding home, almost dying in an ice cave, trying to figure out her relationship with Hook, dealing with her past in the form of Ingrid, having her magic go haywire, potentially almost losing everyone due to Shattered Sight, almost losing Hook, dealing with the Chernabog, feeling like her internal lie detector is going haywire, discovering she was right and that her parents have been lying to her ever since they remembered her and that they screwed over another child in her name, and now tracking down and killing yet another person who tried to kidnap her kid.

 

And that's just off the top of my head. Holy. Shit. Girl needs a meltdown, and she needs one like three seasons ago. What struck me so much about this past episode wasn't the red eyeliner, it was before that in loft when everyone was discussing the whole Henry business, Emma just looked so tired. I just wanted to tuck her into bed and put soft music on for her until she fell asleep. This isn't out of nowhere; we've hit Emma's breaking point. I do think it would help to tie some of these threads together in dialogue so that it doesn't feel like it's out of nowhere, but I do think the threads are there. They're just not connected properly.

[Souris]

I can't feel any sympathy for Once's writers, when other shows manage to make 22 episodes of cohesive, quality television. Obviously, pretty much every show has some dud episodes or stretches where the quality wanes a bit. But other shows manage to have their second half of the season not always suck. Something is deeply flawed in the Once writers' room, and they need to figure out what the problem is and fix it.

[Crimson Belle]

I think we know what the problem is, and the fix is to do the two things Sleepy Hollow did this year. Addition by subtraction, on screen and off.

[Zuleikha]

I don't think 3B was bad, and I don't see either ratings or general fandom sentiment backing up that there's uniform opinion that it was bad. I've also seen a lot of negative sentiment around 4A. So I don't think it's so clear cut that Once has a problem with its back halves as opposed to Once had a pacing problem in season 2 with following up Cora/getting to Neverland and is having a disastrous problem with writing an incoherent plot in 4B. Also, most of the 22-episode shows I've watched do struggle after their second season with mushy middle problem.

 

But I do agree with ParadoxLost that listening to fan feedback is not going to help. There's no uniformity in Once fandom other than what I'm sure the writers already know: we're all happier when they can focus on the core cast of the show. I think they thought they were doing that in 4B and intended to do that in 4B, but bit off more than they could chew with bringing in too many villains. 

[YaddaYadda]

The Once Facebook page posted a link to the EOnline, who were given an "exclusive sneak peek" for this Sunday's episode, where Emma says "

"I need you!" to Regina

.  So are they planning to boycott this episode too, or is it too juicy to miss?

Your spoiler tag is the other way around and taken out of context.  

 

The problem with this show will always be that they have their starting point, sort of what the middle should look like and the ending, but they don't know how to get there.  That's the issue.  They have 22 episodes and they don't know how to fill that properly.

 

3B last year, New York Serenade, Zelena cackling for 8 episodes then the time travel adventure which is really what they wanted to do.  They did not explore Oz, their Dorothy was a bust, Glinda was...I don't know what she was.  They cared about none of that, they just wanted to get to the finale and this is what we need, a time portal and how do we activate it.  Oh, I know, Zelena can activate it after Rumple stabs her, then what?  Emma has to have a line about Marty McFly.

 

I don't think the writers should interact with fandom, period.  We all want what we want and there is no way you can make everyone happy and even when you put on screen what some people were bitching about to appease them, you'll still fail because somehow this was not what was expected.

 

Here's what I want as a fan of this show, as someone who has been watching from the first hour.  I want them to realize that I'm not a shallow viewer (still not over that comment about well if we could have Captain Swan make out for 45 minutes, we would).  Umm, no!  And fuck you, also for thinking that viewers are this shallow.  Not everything in the world is fixed by kisses and hugs.  The Snow/Emma relationship is a perfect example of that.

 

I'd like to not be treated like a 16 year old who sees life through pink hearts and princess stickers who wants people on the show to make out all the time.  I just want a good story that makes sense where I can enjoy all the characters and what motivates them and actively root for them to succeed or fall flat on their faces but still get it at the end of the day.  I'd like for the characters to not be twisted into something I don't recognize to fit a plot.

 

It's in moments like this that I'm glad I'm not on tumblr or other social media platforms to see the stuff that gets said.

Edited April 24, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Minneapple]

I don't think the writers should interact with fandom, period.

That's a pretty stiff line to draw. Would that include stuff like Comic Con? That kind of interaction has been going on since -- well, forever.

[stealinghome]

I can't feel any sympathy for Once's writers, when other shows manage to make 22 episodes of cohesive, quality television. Obviously, pretty much every show has some dud episodes or stretches where the quality wanes a bit. But other shows manage to have their second half of the season not always suck. Something is deeply flawed in the Once writers' room, and they need to figure out what the problem is and fix it.

This. The thing is, the first half of the season being MUCH better than the second half has happened for three consecutive seasons now. After 2B, and certainly after 3B, A&E should've realized that their writing staff as-is can't handle 22 episodes and done something to address it. Bring in more writers for the back half, change how they structure their creative/writing process, start earlier in the year, assign responsibilities differently--I don't really care what they do, but fix it. It's what they get paid to do. Once is...not well written in general, but the writing falls off a cliff in the back halves, and when 99% of other TV shows manage to avoid that fate, that tells me the problem is with the people working on this show, not the general TV constraints they work under.

 

They know what is wrong.  I'd speculate that they are just powerless to fix it.

I have to disagree. The continued massive Regina permaboner tells me they have no clue what is wrong.

 

And we think it would be better if they just admitted the problem.  It wouldn't.  I've seen a showrunner do that before (BSG) and it was a bad idea.  It came across as throwing the writers, director, and actor that were central to that episode under the bus. You've got to protect your team.

Actually, I disagree. I dropped The Good Wife a few seasons ago because it had gotten stale, but one of the things I always respected the Kings (the showrunners) for was that, when a storyline didn't work, they came out and admitted it. They never threw anyone under the bus; they always took all the responsibility onto themselves as showrunners, and made a point to say "We think x actor was great, we didn't give her the material" and stuff like that. But they were very upfront about saying things like "We miscalculated the first half of Season 3, we thought the tension of the Will/Alicia affair would be enough to keep people going, we were wrong." Or "Yeah, the Kalinda's husband plotline was a bad decision by us, we let our desire for thematic parallels get in the way of character." And I respected the hell out of them for admitting that they had miscalculated certain creative decisions and were willing to cop to it. It earned them some of my trust back. And it made it clear that they actually respected their audience and listened to them in a general way.

 

The problem for A&E is, at this point, like 90% of the show is a creative misfire, and you can't admit to THAT. Even worse, they make ludicrous claims about continuity that are obviously false (like that the Bleeding Through backstory was already known in S1, for example) and just make them look like jackasses. They're so afraid to admit to ANYTHING being wrong or even just NOTTOTALLY PLANNED from the start--I mean, their biggest S2 regret was a taser? Really?--that it's actually kind of weird.

Edited April 24, 2015 by stealinghome

[myril]

Just wishing, that a number of fans would take themselves, their ship, favorites and wishes less serious, while it would be nice at the same time, if the show runners would show less defensive arrogance and ignore fans behaving like teenagers throwing a tantrum. There are some fans who do behave like teenagers throwing a tantrum, regardless their actual age. But there are plenty of other, aka reasonable fans, I think.

[Mari]

I went to twitter and searched "rape baby" and a whole lot of Once tweets came up, some specifically directed at Adam.  I'm guessing there'll be a lot of defensive, dithery responses or statements, soon.

[Souris]

Since you brought it up, I did that, too. And now I know something disturbing about otters.

[Mari]

And now I know something disturbing about otters.

I was trying to block that out.   Now I'm all traumatized.  :)

 

(And do you think I'm right about the dithery responses?)

[Souris]

Depends on how many people bring it up. They'll ignore it if it's not that many people. But if a LOT of people mention it, they may dither a response trying to hand wave it away.

 

I don't even know what the hell they've been thinking with the entirety of 4B. So much wrong.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Souris

[CatMack]

I was one of the people who tweeted directly at him about it.  I almost never do that, but this is an issue I'm really not OK being quiet about.  The way rape is treated in general in popular media is horrible, the way male rape is treated in particular is appalling.  I doubt he'll learn a damn thing, but I'm still gonna call him out on it. 

[KingOfHearts]

I'm seeing nothing but negative responses about the Zelena pregnancy twist. It was in very poor taste. Saw "sexual assault territory" mentioned as well.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

I'm sure they knew it would get a negative response. They probably didn't even think about it being rape, though, which goes right along with their past problematic issues with it.

[Mari]

I'm sure they knew it would get a negative response. They probably didn't even think about it being rape, though, which goes right along with their past problematic issues with it.

Yes.

 

I have no problem ignoring the "Hook is rape culture" stuff, because there's a difference between making suggestive comments and trying to put your opponent off balance and actual sexual abuse.  We read about rape culture, and it seems like it's always about how women are objectified. 

 

And I'm not saying there isn't objectification of women.  But, when you look at popular culture?  It's pretty clear that as a culture, we despise male rapists.  Female rapists?  Well, as long as they're attractive, it's considered an awesome thing for the victim.  There are movie plots about it, and jokes about it, and it's continually presented as  "Beautiful female rapist?  Sign me up!"

 

It really angers me that this is their second male victim, and they don't seem to have a clue.  Head's up, guys!  Men can be victims, too, and women can be victimizers.  Plus, just because the person achieved . . . the moment . . . . doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

[sharky]

I'm really hoping their excuse is "Wait and see what happens." Perhaps they learned from the Graham debacle and have a way to address Robin as a victim. Of course, Adam in particular has not proven to be articulate when it comes to responding on Twitter.

It will also be interesting to see how Outlaw Queen fans respond. I've been trying to get behind this ship and was actually very rah rah considering that hug -- and then the dramazzzz.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It will also be interesting to see how Outlaw Queen fans respond.

Considering how A&E have managed to tick off every corner of the fandom this season, I wouldn't be surprised if their arms are folded right now.

[KAOS Agent]

 

It will also be interesting to see how Outlaw Queen fans respond.

 

Outlaw Queen has fans?