S01.E10: The Black Queen

[The Kings Foot]

2 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I think the idea is that they were basically being bred and born smaller. I mean, who knows exactly, they're dragons, lol, but that was the gist of it, that it didn't really matter where they went once hatched - they were just getting smaller, based on the general treatment of them and attempt to contain and control them. There are a lot of fan theories - maybe the maesters were doing something to them, maybe the dragons require a certain kind of special blood to get bigger, etc. But they were definitely getting smaller and smaller. Arrax was very small compared to Syrax when Rhaenyra was Luke's age.

Could also just be inbreeding. Aren't all current dragons descended from just the 3 Aegon and his sisters had ?

[Oscirus]

18 minutes ago, Nicmar said:

I thought they did, where was Vemithior housed at?

Apparently he was chilling in a cave on dragon stone.  But as an unclaimed dragon he can go wherever the hell he wants

[Stardancer Supreme]

54 minutes ago, Nicmar said:

I thought they did, where was Vemithior housed at?

On Dragonstone, there are caverns and caves where the claimed and unclaimed dragons tend to congregate and lay eggs.  Vermithor was most likely deep underground where Daemon could get to either underneath the castle or via tunnels to the caverns.  It looked like steps he was walking up to get close to Vermithor.

The only dragon pit is at King's Landing.  So was the sept where Aegon had his coronation directly above the dragon pit? In hindsight, not the best location.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[Meredith Quill]

14 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

On Dragonstone, there are caverns and caves where the claimed and unclaimed dragons tend to congregate and lay eggs.  Vermithor was most likely deep underground where Daemon could get to either underneath the castle or via tunnels to the caverns.  It looked like steps he was walking up to get close to Vermithor.

The only dragon pit is at King's Landing.  So was the sept where Aegon had his coronation directly above the dragon pit? In hindsight, not the best location.

As mentioned by Daemon, it's called the Dragonmount, which I believe is a dormant volcano on Dragonstone. 

Aegon's coronation took place in the Dragonpit, which has more than one floor, no Sept involved.

[Oscirus]

Matt smith might fuck around and direct one of these episodes. Apparently the idea for the last shot of the season came from him

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, hard to tell. Seems like most of his maneuvering was about how to grab power when the time came, more than openly getting support from wars, traveling around and making alliances. 

I'm not sure Otto could have done much because if word got out he was trying to rally support behind Aegon then he would have been screwed.  Getting Tyland and the people in Kings Landing on his side is one thing since they saw each other all the time, but sending ravens and emissaries means people would talk.  Maybe if he were as clever as Tywin, Olenna,  or early seasons Tyrion he could have pulled it off, but I'm not sure he's in their league.

[magdalene]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:59 PM, The Kings Foot said:

m reminded of what the Hound said to Sansa way back in GOT,

"Your father was a killer, your brother is a killer, your husband will be a killer and your sons will be killers."

Rhaenyra knows exactly who she married. A killer she has mostly under her control. 

I am going to quote this every time somebody moans at me, "but she made him a better man and they were the perfect couple". He was getting what he wanted while they were rusticating for those 6 years on Dragonstone. Also, I am not condoning the choking in any way, but anybody not her would have been dead had they made him that frustrated and furious.  Considering the violence he is capable of he was rather restrained.

Also, knowing full well that Rhaenyra went through the worst of it, these couple of days were not exactly a picnic for Daemon either. You can't convince me he didn't grieve in his way for his brother and their dead baby.

Edited October 25, 2022 by magdalene

[ShannaB]

22 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend that everyone watch The Last Kingdom on Netflix during this long GoT hiatus. Several of the actors overlap, including the actor who plays Aemond.

Loved this series and my mind was blown when I looked up Ewan Mitchell and saw that he played Osferth, Uhtred's loyal monk companion!  Such a striking difference in appearance.  I am fascinated by Aemond and EWs portrayal of the character.  He does give 'great face'.

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

But didnt arrax spend at least 6 years on dragonstone which seemingly has no dragonpits?

I would assume there is a dragon pit or a cave system on Dragonstone because Daemon wooed Vermithor in a dark carved out area.

I was thinking that Vermithor was too easy getting wooed and bonded with just a torch and song.  I would have expected torch, song, flowers, tail feather shaking and a goat.  Ah what a scene that would have been!  Seems Tarqs can bond with more than one dragon just like Dany.

Someone mentioned that Vhagar looked ugly.  I was thinking 'gnarly' LOL.  Aemond learned a lesson (questionable) that you don't mess with crabby old ladies with their own minds.

[magdalene]

54 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Matt smith might fuck around and direct one of these episodes. Apparently the idea for the last shot of the season came from him

Can you link to that info please?

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Can you link to that info please?

https://www.insider.com/house-of-the-dragon-finale-matt-smith-final-shot-2022-10

[magdalene]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

https://www.insider.com/house-of-the-dragon-finale-matt-smith-final-shot-2022-10

So Smith is responsible for her looking so awesome in that final shot. Stories like that make it clear why people love working with him.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'm not sure Otto could have done much because if word got out he was trying to rally support behind Aegon then he would have been screwed.  Getting Tyland and the people in Kings Landing on his side is one thing since they saw each other all the time, but sending ravens and emissaries means people would talk.  Maybe if he were as clever as Tywin, Olenna,  or early seasons Tyrion he could have pulled it off, but I'm not sure he's in their league.

Yes, that's just what I was thinking. He couldn't gather allies openly or be traveling all around making secret deals or it would have been way to out in the open. That's why he had to threaten the lords who were unlucky enough to be there when he demanded loyalty.

[KittyQ]

When told that King Viserys was dead, Rhaenyra and Daemon both suspect foul play. What? They were there, they saw him; he was not in great shape. The man was unlikely to last another 24 hours, so it hardly seems that an assassination would be necessary. 

I wondered why they left King's Landing when it seemed as though the King would die at any time, and Rhaenyra would want to be there as his heir. As it turns out, that was a bad choice. If they had stayed, Alicent's wishful thinking about the succession would not have nearly the credibility (not that it seemed that credible anyway). 

[snickers]

14 hours ago, Affogato said:

The dragons are getting smaller. Vhaegar is huge as was the B(alerion?). Dany’s were fueled by magic. 

I sort of figured this - but considering this is not even 20 years later and they are getting so much smaller one would think the house if the dragon would be concerned 

but I’m not a big fan of the dragon pit, the conquerors should have kept their dragons at dragon stone then building that pit…I think the people were pretty scared into submission knowing what would happen if anyone tried to usurp the throne 

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Taking out another's eye was hardly brave. Although Luke acted out of desperation, it was still cruel. Nowadays such a child would have taken into custody.

I can’t believe we are still debating this but alas….

ok, so I don’t think he was “gunning” for the eye….it was a “fight or flight” situation- you had aemond threatening to feed them all to his dragon, then he picked up the rock…so yes, Luke slashed his face….cruel? Hardly, what aemond did 6 years later was cruel, he is the typical bully who just wants to be loved (and be king) ….he taunts, he picks fights, and he learned from everyone’s favorite knight Christin Cole….because we all know how honorable he is 

standing up to the big bully is brave 

and this is the world of GRRM, if this was real life all the targs would be jailed for being sex offenders

as for the comments on how can Rhae/beesbury/Matt daemon think viserys was well, I have a theory- daemon knew they were feeding him milk of the poppy, then when viserys quit taking it he was more coherent (he showed up to work) so I think perhaps as long as viserys was off the poppy he was “well” 

and it would be suspicious the minute u leave your loved one dies, especially in the hands of the hightowers, if this was the lannisters it be the same thing….

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Could also just be inbreeding. Aren't all current dragons descended from just the 3 Aegon and his sisters had ?

Those three were the only ones with riders at the time of the Conquest, but I don't think we know whether or not there were unhatched eggs and/or unclaimed dragons on Dragonstone at the same time.

[PatsyandEddie]

Couldn’t it also be possible that Otto has been poisoning Viserys for years? Wouldn’t put it past the sod. 
 

[snickers]

1 minute ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Couldn’t it also be possible that Otto has been poisoning Viserys for years? Wouldn’t put it past the sod. 

I’m going Otto plus those maesters…. remember that scene were the now grand maester said to the now deceased one that he wanted to try a new medicine and the maester was like, no! 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

1 hour ago, KittyQ said:

wondered why they left King's Landing when it seemed as though the King would die at any time, and Rhaenyra would want to be there as his heir. As it turns out, that was a bad choice. If they had stayed, Alicent's wishful thinking about the succession would not have nearly the credibility (not that it seemed that credible anyway). 

I think they would have all been killed in their beds like Rhynerys could have been. Clearly the small council was prepared to act. The Kingsguard might have made things messy but with enough of Larys' creeps I think everyone but Daemon would have gone down fast. And Daemon isn't superman. 

People would have grumbled but Aemon is the king's son. And so long as the government functions who cares outside the Red Keep?

[PatsyandEddie]

2 minutes ago, snickers said:

I’m going Otto plus those maesters…. remember that scene were the now grand maester said to the now deceased one that he wanted to try a new medicine and the maester was like, no! 

I’ve had this vibe even back to Aemma giving birth. 

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, snickers said:

I’m going Otto plus those maesters…. remember that scene were the now grand maester said to the now deceased one that he wanted to try a new medicine and the maester was like, no! 

Yes and no. They drugged him silly at the end but I think Otto wanted time. Time for Aegon to grow up, time for their dragons to grow more, time to build alliances, etc. Rhyneara wasn't the only one protected by her father. He kept it all stable until he died.

Edited October 26, 2022 by jeansheridan

[snickers]

1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

Yes and no. They drugged him silly at the end but I think Otto wanted time. Time for Aemon to grow up, time for their dragons to grow more, time to build alliances, etc. Rhyneara wasn't the only one protected by her father. He kept it all stable until he died.

Yeah, but I personally think he wanted it happen when Aegon was a tween….that way Alicent would be the regent maybe, Aegon wouldn’t be so off the hook, plus if rhae had been in court they would have just killed rhae/leanor and the boys (like someone said above) 

having rhae at dragon stone is very inconvenient 

[FnkyChkn34]

4 hours ago, ShannaB said:

Loved this series and my mind was blown when I looked up Ewan Mitchell and saw that he played Osferth, Uhtred's loyal monk companion!  Such a striking difference in appearance.  I am fascinated by Aemond and EWs portrayal of the character.  He does give 'great face'.

I didn't recognize him at first either. Prosthetic chin? 

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, LanceM said:

For the record Viseys did make Rhaenyra a member of the small council a seat she held for at least 10 years so it’s not like he did nothing to set her up to rule. but yes she should have reached out more to gather allies but then again Otto had been planning his coup for 20 years and he too had to reach out to see where others in the realm stood. This makes me think it was a narrative decision the showrunners made in order to add drama and keep viewers in suspense as to who will be backing who in the upcoming war.

True, but Rhaenyra did leave King's Landing permanently and had been on Dragonstone since Laenor's "death" and didn't return until years later after Otto had been ruling in Viserys' stead.

That's years of Otto exercising power and gathering allegiances and alliances, and years of Rhaenyra doing nothing. That's years of the smallfolk seeing and hearing the Greens, and not seeing or hearing anything from Rhaenyra. A coup would have been a lot harder to plan with Rhaenyra there in King's Landing showing her face and gaining or keeping the favor of the Lords and Ladies of Westeros. Perhaps, Viserys would have vested his power onto Rhaenyra, his chosen heir, once his illness incapacitated him... but we take the story we're given so we'll never know.

[ShannaB]

32 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I didn't recognize him at first either. Prosthetic chin? 

If you check out his IMDb page with photo it seems that chin is for real.  The white hair just makes it stand out more.  His face is leaner now as well.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, ShannaB said:

I didn't recognize him at first either. Prosthetic chin? 

Plus how much makeup do you want a regular to have! The scar and wig are annoying enough.  Peter Dinklage put his foot down when it was suggested he wear a green sock on his nose so it could be digitally removed like the book Tyrion.  A smart decision. The scars are plenty of work. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

A coup would have been a lot harder to plan with Rhaenyra there in King's Landing showing her face and gaining or keeping the favor of the Lords and Ladies of Westeros.

Not necessarily; the coup was being planned by the small council who live in the Red Keep, not by visiting lords and ladies, and they'd be doing it regardless of whether Rhaenyra had supper with visiting lords and ladies. In fact, Rhaenyra and her family not being in King's Landing had the happy side effect of the Greens not being able to just subdue and kill them right away when Viserys died.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, snickers said:

ok, so I don’t think he was “gunning” for the eye….it was a “fight or flight” situation- you had aemond threatening to feed them all to his dragon, then he picked up the rock…so yes, Luke slashed his face….cruel? Hardly, what aemond did 6 years later was cruel, he is the typical bully who just wants to be loved (and be king) ….he taunts, he picks fights, and he learned from everyone’s favorite knight Christin Cole….because we all know how honorable he is 

standing up to the big bully is brave

Let's remember that Aegon, Luke and Jace bullied Aemond first. And Luke and Jace just recently reminded Aemond of it.

Rhaenyra's kids aren't sweet angels.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not necessarily; the coup was being planned by the small council who live in the Red Keep, not by visiting lords and ladies, and they'd be doing it regardless of whether Rhaenyra had supper with visiting lords and ladies. In fact, Rhaenyra and her family not being in King's Landing had the happy side effect of the Greens not being able to just subdue and kill them right away when Viserys died.

If Rhaenyra had been by her father's deathbed, *she* would have given commands to King's Guard. As we saw, the commander was a loyal man. And of course, she could have keep some of her sons somewhere else to protect at least some of them.

Anyway, as we saw, her actions were late and, unlike Alicent and Otto, she she sent Luke as an envoy only to remind of oaths without anything to offer. That's not a good sign of her ability to play the power game.

Also, giving birth to a stillborn child just at this momen is a bad omen itself but also because it made unable to act in time.

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I think they would have all been killed in their beds like Rhynerys could have been. Clearly the small council was prepared to act. The Kingsguard might have made things messy but with enough of Larys' creeps I think everyone but Daemon would have gone down fast. And Daemon isn't superman. 

People would have grumbled but Aemon is the king's son. And so long as the government functions who cares outside the Red Keep?

Who's killing them? Unless Otto has some pretty ass feet, Larys wont do it cuz Alicent didnt want that. The city watch is more loyal to daemon than the hightowers, so unless the kings guard suddenly loses their mind and decided to commit treason, I dont think Otto wwouldve been able to take over that way.

Just looked up that show and the helena actress is also on it. Likely explains their chemistry

[The Kings Foot]

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am going to quote this every time somebody moans at me, "but she made him a better man and they were the perfect couple". He was getting what he wanted while they were rusticating for those 6 years on Dragonstone. Also, I am not condoning the choking in any way, but anybody not her would have been dead had they made him that frustrated and furious.  Considering the violence he is capable of he was rather restrained.

Also, knowing full well that Rhaenyra went through the worst of it, these couple of days were not exactly a picnic for Daemon either. You can't convince me he didn't grieve in his way for his brother and their dead baby.

Its worth noting HER reaction.  She's not surprised at him.  And in fact she even understands that in that moment he's more hurt than she is  (He realized he never had Viserys' trust)   and he's lashing out the only way he knows how.  She also understands that the only way to control him is to not escalate.

Make no mistake she knows what he is. She wasnt joking at her wedding when she told him to grab his sword, kill her guards and kidnap her. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[The Kings Foot]

9 hours ago, snickers said:

I sort of figured this - but considering this is not even 20 years later and they are getting so much smaller one would think the house if the dragon would be concerned 

Both Vhaegar and Verminthor are over hundred years at this point. 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am going to quote this every time somebody moans at me, "but she made him a better man and they were the perfect couple". He was getting what he wanted while they were rusticating for those 6 years on Dragonstone. Also, I am not condoning the choking in any way, but anybody not her would have been dead had they made him that frustrated and furious.  Considering the violence he is capable of he was rather restrained.

Yeah, strangling his wife but not killing her is "rather restrained".

Taking towgether this society's misogyny and his violent nature, I doubt if Daemon is going to settle following his wife's orders, especially as he has a better right to the throne than Rhaenyra's elder sons.  

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Who's killing them? Unless Otto has some pretty ass feet, Larys wont do it cuz Alicent didnt want that. The city watch is more loyal to daemon than the hightowers, so unless the kings guard suddenly loses their mind and decided to commit treason, I dont think Otto wwouldve been able to take over that way.

I agree.

It wasn't not because of misogyny but Rhaenyra own mistakes during 20 years that caused that he isn't now the undisputed Queen. By putting her own desides first and totally lacking undertanding of the power game she literally donated Otto his chance. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Roseanna
adding 3 words

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Not necessarily; the coup was being planned by the small council who live in the Red Keep, not by visiting lords and ladies, and they'd be doing it regardless of whether Rhaenyra had supper with visiting lords and ladies. In fact, Rhaenyra and her family not being in King's Landing had the happy side effect of the Greens not being able to just subdue and kill them right away when Viserys died.

A key part of their plan was the fact that Rhaenyra was absent. Hightower went on to list every sign of legitimacy that Aegon has, it would be difficult to give Aegon those signs with a there-and-present Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra’s absence gave them the time and space to crown Aegon in front of the public with no fuss and present himself as King.

For the coup to ultimately work, the Lords and Ladies of Westeros needed to back Aegon’s ascension. Otto had to gather a lot of them up and force them under duress to bend the knee to Aegon. That’s a little difficult to do with Rhaenyra there in the Red Keep.

I think that Otto’s role would have been a little diminished had Rhaenyra remained in King’s Landing. She should have been in King’s Landing building her own influence and doing her own wheeling and dealing with the small council. Not all the members of the small council agreed with this plan. I think some of them went along with it after Beesbury was killed. That might not have happened if it would have been Rhaenyra sitting at the head of the table when Viserys died instead of Alicent. As @Roseanna mentioned, she would have been in control of the King’s Guard, whom she could have ordered to deliver Otto’s tongue to her. Additionally, Daemon still has some loyalty from the City Watch and maybe would have commanded the loyalty of the entire City Watch if he had remained in King’s Landing with Rhaenyra.

Edited October 26, 2022 by AntFTW

[Nicmar]

13 hours ago, ShannaB said:

Loved this series and my mind was blown when I looked up Ewan Mitchell and saw that he played Osferth, Uhtred's loyal monk companion!  Such a striking difference in appearance.  I am fascinated by Aemond and EWs portrayal of the character.  He does give 'great face'.

I would assume there is a dragon pit or a cave system on Dragonstone because Daemon wooed Vermithor in a dark carved out area.

I was thinking that Vermithor was too easy getting wooed and bonded with just a torch and song.  I would have expected torch, song, flowers, tail feather shaking and a goat.  Ah what a scene that would have been!  Seems Tarqs can bond with more than one dragon just like Dany.

Someone mentioned that Vhagar looked ugly.  I was thinking 'gnarly' LOL.  Aemond learned a lesson (questionable) that you don't mess with crabby old ladies with their own minds.

Vhagar to me looked like a iguana with wings only because of that dew flap. lol

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, snickers said:

I think the people were pretty scared into submission knowing what would happen if anyone tried to usurp the throne 

I imagine that's exactly why the Targaryens built the dragon pit at King's Landing to begin with.  Keep the dragons close by to keep everyone cowled.

11 hours ago, snickers said:

I can’t believe we are still debating this but alas….

ok, so I don’t think he was “gunning” for the eye….it was a “fight or flight” situation- you had aemond threatening to feed them all to his dragon, then he picked up the rock…so yes, Luke slashed his face….cruel?

I can't either, having just rewatched that episode on Sunday.  Aemond was defending himself against 4 other children and picked up the rock initially while they had him pinned down and were pounding him.  It was a fight and they were all equally at fault.  None of them tried to deescalate.  I wouldn't say the slashing was cruel any more than picking up that rock was.  Doesn't in any way justify what Aemond did at Storm's End, though.

11 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Couldn’t it also be possible that Otto has been poisoning Viserys for years? Wouldn’t put it past the sod. 
 

Maybe, but I think then he would've died sooner.  The leprosy is what killed him.  Daemon's comment was just him believing what he wanted to believe despite the evidence he saw with his own eyes that Viserys was close to death.

11 hours ago, snickers said:

then when viserys quit taking it he was more coherent (he showed up to work) so I think perhaps as long as viserys was off the poppy he was “well” 

Coherent but obviously in agonizing pain and literally falling apart.

10 hours ago, snickers said:

Yeah, but I personally think he wanted it happen when Aegon was a tween….that way Alicent would be the regent maybe, Aegon wouldn’t be so off the hook, plus if rhae had been in court they would have just killed rhae/leanor and the boys (like someone said above) 

Oh sure.  The fact that it took so many years for Viserys to die, to me, is evidence that Otto wasn't poisoning him.

[MrsR]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Who's killing them? Unless Otto has some pretty ass feet, Larys wont do it cuz Alicent didnt want that.

Why Cristen Cole of course, The Red Keep's resident murderer.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Rhaenyra and Daemon should have been pressing relentlessly for Otto's dismissal for years rather than accept his return as fait accompli. Or pressed Viserys to give them more lands to make Rhaenyra's position as heir apparent stronger. Or at least placed some spies in the king's palace. Instead they did absolutely nothing to prevent the coup or to make sure they are informed immediately when the king died and the only supporters in the capital Daemon could think of were some gold cloaks whom he commanded almost two decades ago. Way to be caught with your pants down, guys.

Since the show clearly wanted to portray Viserys as not that terrible of a king, we never saw him refuse such demands, instead it was Rhaenyra and Daemon who ended up looking as complete amateurs who shouldn't run a lemonade stand, let alone a kingdom. Which, again, would be an interesting story to tell if it were a deliberate choice but I suspect it was a writing crutch to allow the Green coup to happen easily and Rhaenyra is supposed to be at least somewhat competent of a ruler after all.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Who's killing them? Unless Otto has some pretty ass feet, Larys wont do it cuz Alicent didnt want that. The city watch is more loyal to daemon than the hightowers, so unless the kings guard suddenly loses their mind and decided to commit treason, I dont think Otto wwouldve been able to take over that way.

If Otto is unaware of Larys' favors for his daughter he is definitely dumber than we have been led to believe. I think given they had Lannister men on their side and other small council members they could have taken out the family quickly. 

Also I was struck that they didn't know of Viserys' death until Rhyners showed up. They really had no spies! And we know a fast boat can travel between the locations. Allies were being hung in the Red Keep and they knew nothing. This lack of a spy network will bite them too. If the White Wyrm survived maybe she can build one for them. 

[rhygirl720]

This is the first time that we have clearly seen that dragons will do as they please. There have been hints before, but this is the time I can remember deliberate action without rider direction. It's an interesting take and I like it. It creates another layer to the whole premise of the dance with dragons.

I agree that if Rhaenyra were present in Kings Landing the coup would have been more complicated to pull off. She left after the eye for an eye confrontation, likely to protect her children, which in the end was for nothing.

Rhaenyra did not seem afraid when Daemon grabbed her like that. Who knows maybe they have a history of roughness. She does know who he is, probably more than most. She pursued this relationship and chose this path. If Daemon were just power hungry there are certainly avenues, he could have taken to secure his position and his son's position in the succession., he didn't. Maybe it's the actor but Daemon is complex and layered and he has shown tenderness as well as ruthlessness.

Aemond seriously messed up. he thought he had it handled, and boy did he miscalculate.

[jeansheridan]

The other thing too, dragons are big. It shouldn't be hard to monitor their departures and arrivals. If you had a spy network with their own set of ravens. Honestly would it be that hard to set up a second raven network? Especially in Kings Landing? 

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Taking towgether this society's misogyny and his violent nature, I doubt if Daemon is going to settle following his wife's orders, especially as he has a better right to the throne than Rhaenyra's elder sons.  

While I don't think Daemon would have consented to remain nonviolent (although now I'm guessing he won't have to - I think the death of Luke has completely changed the game where Rhaenyra is concerned and I doubt she'll still be arguing restraint at the beginning of next season), I honestly haven't gotten the impression he's trying to take the throne from Rhaenyra or Jace. That just hasn't really shown in his actions. He wasn't angry because he felt so entitled to the throne now - he was angry because he realized his brother had never trusted him and never would have left him the heir no matter what he did or didn't do. Daemon loved Viserys in his own weird, Daemon-like way, so this felt like a more personal betrayal to him and he snapped. Which is not GOOD, lol, as I've said before - Daemon is not a heroic figure. But he is somewhat complicated, and for the time being I think he intends to help Rhaenyra take the throne, not take it for himself. I just think he believes that violence is the only way that it should be done, and he likely had no intention of relying primarily on diplomacy. 

[Constantinople]

12 hours ago, PatsyandEddie said:

Couldn’t it also be possible that Otto has been poisoning Viserys for years? Wouldn’t put it past the sod. 

The show has been explicit about who's killing whom, and the circumstances under which they're kilked to the point that they had Larys's henchmen helpfully wear firefly sigils for the audience's benefit when they torched Harrenhal.

And with Viserys they explicitly raised the issue of whether or not he's being given too much milk of the poppy.

I don't see why the showrunners would break that pattern now.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Constantinople

[proserpina65]

27 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

This is the first time that we have clearly seen that dragons will do as they please. There have been hints before, but this is the time I can remember deliberate action without rider direction. It's an interesting take and I like it. It creates another layer to the whole premise of the dance with dragons.

We saw that Drogon, at least, ate what he wanted and went where he wanted.  Dany made the decision to lock up her babies after he killed the shepherd's (I think) daughter.  Rhaegal and Viserion went down to the Meeren version of a dragon pit without any difficulty but Drogon hauled ass out of there.

31 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

Aemond seriously messed up. he thought he had it handled, and boy did he miscalculate.

Yep.  He screwed the pooch.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Daemon was also frustrated that Rhaenyra was talking about prophecies at all while in his mind he was feeling the pressure of the enemies bearing down on them in a very immediate way.

[Cristofle]

26 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Daemon was also frustrated that Rhaenyra was talking about prophecies at all while in his mind he was feeling the pressure of the enemies bearing down on them in a very immediate way.

That's a consistent aspect to Daemon. He doesn't seem to give a damn about anything "mystical" - he (correctly) dismissed outright the notion that Harwin and Lyonel were killed by a curse, as opposed to murdered by a real live person. And here, he doesn't care about prophecies. He cares about what is actually happening in the moment. I respect that, actually. I don't respect his reaction to Rhaenyra, but I could respect him saying "Fuck prophecies, if we don't act now, Otto will kill all of us, including the kids." 

[rhygirl720]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

We saw that Drogon, at least, ate what he wanted and went where he wanted.  Dany made the decision to lock up her babies after he killed the shepherd's (I think) daughter.  Rhaegal and Viserion went down to the Meeren version of a dragon pit without any difficulty but Drogon hauled ass out of there.

Yep.  He screwed the pooch.

Yes, I remember Drogon being willful, but he mostly obeyed Dany except when he rescued her, and she wanted to go back, and he wasn't having it. Maybe the bond was stronger? maybe she was more Tarq? more magical who knows. 

[proserpina65]

51 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

Yes, I remember Drogon being willful, but he mostly obeyed Dany except when he rescued her, and she wanted to go back, and he wasn't having it. Maybe the bond was stronger? maybe she was more Tarq? more magical who knows. 

I think I'll put my money on "more magical", lol.

[Oscirus]

3 hours ago, MrsR said:

Why Cristen Cole of course, The Red Keep's resident murderer.

Same issue as with Larys, he's more loyal to Alicent than Otto

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also I was struck that they didn't know of Viserys' death until Rhyners showed up. They really had no spies! And we know a fast boat can travel between the locations. Allies were being hung in the Red Keep and they knew nothing. This lack of a spy network will bite them too. If the White Wyrm survived maybe she can build one for them. 

Dragons are faster than ravens and rhaenys left right for dragonstone as soon as she could. Perhaps a city watch soldier couldve sent something sooner but it wouldve been maybe a couple hours difference at best.

[rhygirl720]

19 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I think I'll put my money on "more magical", lol.

agreed!