S05.E07: No Man’s Land

[Redrum]

26 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Does it matter? Is a terrorist in one country ever welcome in another??

Historically yes. A terrorist in one country is often a hero in others. Depends on what they did and why. 

So it does matter, a little at least, if Serena is in Canada, whether Canada sees her as a terrorist or not. I doubt they're over fond of her but if they aren't prosecuting June for murdering Fred since it didn't happen on Canadian soil.... I doubt they can prosecute Serena for her actions in Gilead 

[dmc]

7 hours ago, HMFan said:

Yes, we do think Serena is a manipulative C$$T but, she too, was a prisoner in Gilead. All women are. Serena, like June likely have a bunch of stockholm syndrome. However, as we know, Serena's mother is also a widow and has been allowed to run her own household and excepted from Gilead's normal treatment because of Serena's status as Mrs. Waterford. So, was / is Serena worried about how her mother will be treated since her departure?  Likely.

It seems that Gilead makes people do things in order to create and/or utilize a situation in which their lives become bearable.  Was Serena ever happy not reading, not contributing, not having a purpose?  No. Did she really want someone else's child, or truly agree with the handmaid ideal? No. Nor did Ms. Putnam. Remember, this was something contrived by the creators of Gilead in the back of a vehicle. Perhaps no one who supported the Gilead concept could truly see how far men of power would become inflated and want more power.

Serena was frustrated that her whole life is controlled by others, and envious of a person she considered less than her, could be worthy of a baby of their own, and she couldn't.

Note in the previous episode, Serena was not on board initially with the whole handmaid idea, nor did she really want someone else's child. She could have picked any of the children in the kiddie jail, but instead had to suck it up and take a handmaid so they would have children, family, and rise in power.  Power is the only thing in Gilead that protects anyone.

I would also proffer that everyone coming from and within the Gilead system has some form of Stockholm Syndrome, and being faced with true freedom in Canada is likely a very traumatic thought and adjustment.

June has likely realized that killing Serena would be too good for Serena. Serena is likely happy June punished Fred. Serena has actually come to the realization that there is no place in Gilead for her or any woman no matter how she tries to sell it, and that she screwed up when she turned down help from Canada.

I think unfortunately Serena’s actions during Gilead go beyond her just being a cog in the Gilead system nor have her actions since been of the redemptive kind.  Remember the crimes she committed against June were not even sanctioned by Gilead.
 

I also don’t think Serena has had a change of heart about Gilead or her belief system.  The only consistency in her character is her beliefs. These are her beliefs.  
 

Serena has been offered multiple life rafts out of Gilead, she herself has chosen to stay connected to them.  She was offered more support than the escaped Handmaids to make a life in Canada, she turned it down. Her words and actions reveal her allegiance.  Serenas issues with Gilead were her personal treatment as long as that treatment was removed, she would be on board with their beliefs. This is why she’s fine working at the Gilead Center being able to read and wear pants still supporting their beliefs. 

At this point, Serena has seen the worst of Gilead, and she was still willing to go back in and work with them.  

If part of the show is respecting women’s agency, does she not have the agency to make that choice? At what point are people going to acknowledge this is what she thinks is right? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by dmc

[aghst]

51 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The best thing that can happen to baby Noah is that he is kept far away from Serena, which even she seems to realize. Of course, June and Luke's parenting leaves something to be desired.

Out of the hot pan and into the fire.

When they supposedly bonded after the birth, they both said "praise be" to each other.

Look it's one thing for Serena to say it since she's a true believer and if she's going to rid herself of the Gilead propaganda, it's still early in her de-programming.

But why does June still say these Gilead mantras?  She seemed pretty secular living in NY.  Maybe in those flashbacks, her NY circle probably looked down on all the religious extremists trying to bring about Gilead.

June needs some deprogramming herself.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Redrum said:

Historically yes. A terrorist in one country is often a hero in others. Depends on what they did and why. 

So it does matter, a little at least, if Serena is in Canada, whether Canada sees her as a terrorist or not. I doubt they're over fond of her but if they aren't prosecuting June for murdering Fred since it didn't happen on Canadian soil.... I doubt they can prosecute Serena for her actions in Gilead 

Sure, they don’t have to prosecute. They certainly don’t have to welcome her and grant her asylum either. 🤦‍♀️

[Redrum]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Sure, they don’t have to prosecute. They certainly don’t have to welcome her and grant her asylum either.

At last check, they arrested her. But not for anything she did in Gilead.

I'm totally fine if you want to insist she's a terrorist although I think traitor and insurrectionist is more appropriate. But she wasn't arrested for terrorism in the last episode, mostly I think because Canada has no case against her.  

[Cinnabon]

42 minutes ago, Redrum said:

At last check, they arrested her. But not for anything she did in Gilead.

I'm totally fine if you want to insist she's a terrorist although I think traitor and insurrectionist is more appropriate. But she wasn't arrested for terrorism in the last episode, mostly I think because Canada has no case against her.  

I don’t expect them to arrest her. But she was a part of the plans to kill members of the US government. I consider that terrorism. My comments are based on a previous poster thinking that Canada would grant her asylum, something that’s not offered to many.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Seems appropriate for a terrorist. 🤷‍♀️

I'm pretty sure Canada doesn't know anything about her involvement in overthrowing the US government. Even the US operatives in Canada don't seem to know, since they never charged her with treason or similar crimes. Her only transgression in Canada is illegal border crossing.

5 hours ago, circumvent said:

I don't know how immigrants were treated in less fascistic times, if they used to be handcuffed, but I would think that a woman that just had a baby and is not well would not be handcuffed to the bed, but they would have someone at the hospital to take her away once she is better. But I don't really know

I think that scene was a heavy-handed reference to how illegal immigrants have been treated in the US in the recent past.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

I'm pretty sure Canada doesn't know anything about her involvement in overthrowing the US government. Even the US operatives in Canada don't seem to know, since they never charged her with treason or similar crimes. Her only transgression in Canada is illegal border crossing.

I think that scene was a heavy-handed reference to how illegal immigrants have been treated in the US in the recent past.

*undocumented, not illegal.

[chocolatine]

29 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

*undocumented, not illegal.

"Illegal immigration" is an accurate description and also the naming convention used by major news media, including AP and NYT, so I will continue to use it.

Edited October 21, 2022 by chocolatine

[circumvent]

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I think that scene was a heavy-handed reference to how illegal immigrants have been treated in the US in the recent past.

In my opinion, it is the opposite, it is a light handed version. The way the system treats immigrants - not in the recent past, but to this day - is by kidnapping babies and putting them up for adoption, so Serena got it easy

the illegal/undocumented distinction is simply a matter of grammar - people cannot be illegal. A person is not "an illegal" anything. If AP is using Illegal immigrants they need to revise their manual - which needs a big revision anyway. Now, if they are using "illegal immigration", then it is unkind and prejudiced, but not incorrect. Acts can be illegal

Editing: the AP has actually changed the Styleguide in 2013 and no longer use "illegal immigrant", but does refer, as I pointed out, to "illegal immigration" - the act can be illegal, not a person. They don't use "undocumented" either, they do some gymnastics around the term and promote sources and details when writing about the issue. 

But the guide does need revision and because it is written by people, it is flawed. For example, because journalists use it to write pieces, they once changed the identification of a very close friend of mine. This friend was interviewed and referred to herself as Autistic. The journalist changed to "she has autism". My friend complained and the journalist said she would not change the term because of the AP Styleguide. That's disrespectful because the interviewee specifically asked to be referred to as Autistic (with a capital A). In the end, the journalist deleted the interview. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by circumvent
More information on language

[Hanahope]

I had the impression that June was almost going to say to Luke that Serena was learning, that even if she did that to me, we have to be better so they will learn more.  but then she thought, well, no better lesson that actually having the exact same act happen to her, sometimes the 'low' road is really better.  maybe having her own child taken away, at least for a time (because i'm sure she will get Noah back), Serena will finally understand just how terrible it is for the handmaids.  its one thing to volunteer (or get paid) to be a surrogate/handmaid.  its another thing when its not.  

Just like we can all hope aunt lydia will finally realize that 'the ceremony" really means nothing to the commanders, its just an excuse to have sex with women who are not their wives, and 'get their kink' on.  certainly aunt lydia has to know about jezebels, she knows that these men are not the pious christians they claim to be. its all about power and control.

[Redrum]

5 hours ago, circumvent said:

s by kidnapping babies and putting them up for abortion,

I assume you mean adoption here :)

58 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Just like we can all hope aunt lydia will finally realize that 'the ceremony" really means nothing to the commanders, its just an excuse to have sex with women who are not their wives, and 'get their kink' on.  certainly aunt lydia has to know about jezebels, she knows that these men are not the pious christians they claim to be. its all about power and control.

I have a harder time with this simply because Lydia rather clearly was getting her own kink on in prior seasons with the Handmaids. Not sexually, but Lydia loved and loves the power and control. Lydia went from a plain jane who was looked down on by snobby hoity toity younger women as too old/too ugly/too fat/too dumb to accomplish anythng to ruling like a violent queen over the bitches who treated her so badly.  Did Lydia wrap up her pleasure in taunting the previously rich little bitches like June in religion? Sure. Does it mean she wasn't getting off on torturing June or Janine? No. She gets off on telling some prior book editor to get on her knees and scrub or else face the whip. Lydia was practically masturbating with glee while telling Emily that Emily was now circumcised. 

I think Lydia has sympathy for Janine in part because unlike Moira/June/Emily, Janine was frankly something of a loser to start with. I think some of her questioning is in part because now they're getting 14 year olds who can barely read and she doesn't get the same thrill in taking out her revenge fantasies on them. 

Of course Lydia knows about Jezebels. Although its not spelled out, I think "harvesting Esther's womb" was prep for sending her to work at Jezebels. That Lydia does a better job in being pious doesn't mean its not all about power and control for her. 

[circumvent]

7 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I assume you mean adoption here :)

Oops, yes, of course. Will fix it

[iMonrey]

Quote

I’ve kinda zoned out over No Man’s Land for several episodes now. Makes no sense when there’s there’s a defined water border.  I tend to go all “lalala” whenever it’s mentioned. Yes, I am hate watching at this  point. 

It would help if they showed us a map of the territory in question. We've at least twice established a bridge crossing a river that serves as the border between Canada and Gilead, but perhaps there is some sort of territory very nearby considered "no man's land." Maybe Emily didn't know about it, maybe it's harder to get to on the Gilead side. I don't know, I'm just spit-balling, but I definitely think a map would help because yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, circumvent said:

the illegal/undocumented distinction is simply a matter of grammar - people cannot be illegal. A person is not "an illegal" anything.

It's not a matter of grammar. An adjective that modifies a noun is perfectly grammatical. Undocumented is an adjective just like illegal is, but it's semantically incorrect because in most cases people who are in the country illegally have some kind of documentation, just not the kind that gives them the right to be there. Illegal is both grammatically and semantically correct.

As for it being unkind, calling someone who is staying in a country illegally an illegal immigrant is the same as calling someone who committed burglary a burglar, someone who committed a felony crime a felon, etc. It's a description, not a judgement. So unless we stop referring to all criminals by the crimes that they've committed, I don't see why there should be an exception for illegal immigrants.

36 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It would help if they showed us a map of the territory in question. We've at least twice established a bridge crossing a river that serves as the border between Canada and Gilead, but perhaps there is some sort of territory very nearby considered "no man's land." Maybe Emily didn't know about it, maybe it's harder to get to on the Gilead side. I don't know, I'm just spit-balling, but I definitely think a map would help because yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Emily was driven to Canada by someone who was hired by Lawrence, so that person would have known about NML for sure. The only one who I buy not knowing about it was Moira when she first came to Canada.

Edited October 21, 2022 by chocolatine

[aghst]

Did they ever mention NML in those earlier seasons, including when Emily or Luke escaped?

Seems like a retcon.

[chocolatine]

8 minutes ago, aghst said:

Did they ever mention NML in those earlier seasons, including when Emily or Luke escaped?

Seems like a retcon.

I don't think it was ever mentioned before the episode in which Fred was killed, so yes, it's a retcon.

[Hanahope]

6 hours ago, Redrum said:

Lydia was practically masturbating with glee while telling Emily that Emily was now circumcised. 

I think Lydia has sympathy for Janine in part because unlike Moira/June/Emily, Janine was frankly something of a loser to start with. I think some of her questioning is in part because now they're getting 14 year olds who can barely read and she doesn't get the same thrill in taking out her revenge fantasies on them.

I always thought Lydia was happy about Emily's circumcision was because Emily was a lesbian, and Lydia never approved of the LGBTQ+

Also with Esther, she didn't do anything "wrong" per her religion, she didn't have a child out of wedlock, or marry a divorced man.  her "crime" was helping June, which may be against Gilead's law, but not the religion.  At least to me, Lydia seems to have fully embraced the religious aspect of the Gilead, not necessarily the politics of it.  

[Scarlett45]

Please keep your discussion focused on the events of the episode rather than the larger themes of immigration law and the evolution of the language surrounding the discussion.

Here at Primetimer, we do not refer to human beings as "illegal" given our Inclusion Policy. If you have questions please contact @Whimsy @Scarlett45.

[crashdown]

22 hours ago, aghst said:

But why does June still say these Gilead mantras?  She seemed pretty secular living in NY.  Maybe in those flashbacks, her NY circle probably looked down on all the religious extremists trying to bring about Gilead.

June needs some deprogramming herself.

One thing that people forget about June is that she's pretty religious herself, although not in the Gilead way. She insisted on baptizing Hannah, and she clearly *does* believe in a Christian God. The difference between Serena's Gilead-style religion and June's is actually (in my opinion) a major theme of the show as a whole: the struggle between Old Testament religion and ethics (the eye-for-an-eye style of retributive justice we see in Gilead) and New Testament Christian notions of forgiveness and grace. That struggle has been personified in June all season, and it came to a culmination in "No Man's Land." June tried her hand at Old Testament retributive justice in Fred's murder, and it didn't work for her. In "No Man's Land," she's choosing New Testament morality over Old Testament beliefs. I think that's awesome, and I also think it's both moving and psychologically consistent. I'm not religious myself, and I'm definitely not a Christian, but I say as someone who has spent a lot of time studying religion, ethics, and philosophy that retributive justice is ethically inferior to forgoing it and rising above. June helping Serena and clasping her hand is much more satisfying to me than June's ripping Serena's womb apart and stealing Noah from her.  June is showing the same faith in Serena to be a good parent to Noah that she had showed when she asked Serena to give up Noelle. That original faith was misplaced, because Serena ultimately failed her with Noelle. It might be misplaced again--I hope it won't--but in any case, just the *act* of that leap of faith is inspiring and beautiful.

[crashdown]

Here are just a couple of things about the episode from this TVLine interview that particularly interest me, given my read on June and Serena in general:

My personal favorite part of the episode was when Serena asks June why she didn't kill her at the Information Center, and June says that she didn't want to. There's something really wonderful about the performances of both actors there, so much emotion in so few words. Here's what Moss has to say about it: She just answers so honestly, which I love, when she says ‘I didn’t want to.’ She loves her. She wants her to be a good person, to realize that she can be a good person. June is Serena’s biggest ally, believe it or not.

Here's script writer Rachel Shukert in answer to a question about the flashback:

TVLINE | I did love the flashbacks to early in June and Serena’s relationship, because when the show starts in Season 1, they’re already entrenched in not liking each other. This episode made me think they might’ve been friends in a different life. Is that anything you thought about?
Absolutely. I mean, I feel like these two have always had this kind of like bond to each other that keeps drawing them back together even though they could completely be rid of each other, right? And they’ve had moments throughout the show of being allies and understanding each other. I feel like that’s the thing: They really do have each other’s number in the way that, like, your best friend just like knows what you’re going to do and knows everything about you.

And with that amount of insight into another person, you have to have a certain amount of empathy for them, and know where they’re coming from and see enough of yourself in them . . .  I do think Serena and June have a strange bond. And it was interesting to think about what it could’ve been like at the very beginning, if there was like a different way this relationship could’ve gone, you know? Obviously it’s a horrible situation . . . But to think that there was like another world where they would kind of get each other, you know? It might’ve gone in a different direction.

But then, the corruption of Gilead is that it sours every relationship that it touches. Because it’s not possible really to have a friendship or a real relationship in a totalitarian system, right? What totalitarianism steals from you is ultimately your ability to really relate to other people in an unguarded, intimate way.

****

(I still think that the flashback is an unfortunate retcon, but it also neatly gets around the trauma bond charge, since it posits a bond before trauma. I suppose it's *barely* possible that there was a little window early on when Serena appreciated June after first meeting her and before everything started to go south after Fred started playing Scrabble with her. Barely!)

Edited October 22, 2022 by crashdown

[chaifan]

22 hours ago, crashdown said:

June tried her hand at Old Testament retributive justice in Fred's murder, and it didn't work for her. In "No Man's Land," she's choosing New Testament morality over Old Testament beliefs. I think that's awesome, and I also think it's both moving and psychologically consistent.

@crashdown, I love your whole post a million times.  You said this better than I ever could.  June's motivation behind her transformation in this episode is simple - as she said to Serena, she didn't want to become her.  Also, I don't think June's helping Serena give birth has anything to do with feminism, or anti-feminism, or tropes of feminism, but just being human. 

Now, I don't buy the "love" for Serena, as mentioned in the interview above.  I think that's going way too far.  But Serena and June have history.  Horrible history, but also history of Serena helping June.  And, Serena did just spare/save June's life.  Yeah, she needed June because she was in labor.  Both Serena and June had chances to kill each other, and they didn't.  But I wouldn't call that love.

I am glad that they've made this change in June.  Hell-bent-on-revenge June was tiring.  OK, June is pretty much tiring.  But there's some growth here, and I should give them credit for that. 

Luke just being let go was the most unbelievable part of this episode.  He would have been beaten to death for the fun of it, or shot in the head, or both. 

I agree with whoever posted above that Serena will likely be given asylum and will get Noah back.  They're not going to permanently separate mother and child (especially a newborn) over an illegal border crossing.  If I were Serena, I'd be asking for them to list me, and the baby, as dead (died in childbirth) and put me in a witness protection program of some sort while I spill all sorts of secrets about Gilead and raise my baby somewhere in Nova Scotia.

[crashdown]

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

Now, I don't buy the "love" for Serena, as mentioned in the interview above.  I think that's going way too far.  But Serena and June have history.  Horrible history, but also history of Serena helping June.  And, Serena did just spare/save June's life.  Yeah, she needed June because she was in labor.  Both Serena and June had chances to kill each other, and they didn't.  But I wouldn't call that love.

Well, Lizzie and Yvonne obviously ship Serena/June, and shippers gonna ship! I certainly don't think that June feels any simple love toward Serena. (Serena, on the other hand, DOES love June in an uncomplicated way at this precise moment, but she's incredibly vulnerable and has no other options. Love is easier in that state of mind, and it might change by the next episode.) However, I do think that "love" is one of the several things that June feels toward Serena (even if it only occurs in flickering flashes), and that "I didn't want to" bit was June's being absolutely open and vulnerable about that to Serena--and Serena recognized it for what it is. It's a very emotionally laden few lines, and I love to watch it.

[Ceindreadh]

19 hours ago, chaifan said:

I agree with whoever posted above that Serena will likely be given asylum and will get Noah back.  They're not going to permanently separate mother and child (especially a newborn) over an illegal border crossing.  If I were Serena, I'd be asking for them to list me, and the baby, as dead (died in childbirth) and put me in a witness protection program of some sort while I spill all sorts of secrets about Gilead and raise my baby somewhere in Nova Scotia.

That presumes that Serena wants to bring down Gilead.  She might not feel it safe to go back there as an unmarried mother, but if she had a suitable husband in tow, i.e. a high enough ranking commander, she would return in a heartbeat. 

[Quickbeam]

I loved, really loved how this episode was between two women. I thought both actors brought their A game. I’ve been to all the US states near the Canadian border and there’s a whole lot of rural nothing throughout. So I went with it. I felt it was the strongest episode this season. 

[Marley]

Hated this episode. Serena is disgusting and is not a victim. I laughed when Luke got her baby taken away from her. Poor baby has psychopath horrible genes tho.

[bettername2come]

June had a moment when she was holding the child and had a crazy smile where I think she was totally thinking of killing that baby in front of Serena before she clicked back into herself and sincerely told Serena he was perfect. 

I liked the simplicity of "Why didn't you kill me?" "I didn't want to."

"At last she knows what it feels like." I mean, I see where Luke's coming from, but that was really dark. It felt like an "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy" situation, which seemed to be how June felt.

[lucindabelle]

I had dread throughout that June was going to kill rhe baby.

I want a much longer redemption arc for Serena. That was too fast. I did buy the flashback. Serena has always had doubts. She’s always waffled.

[circumvent]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:32 PM, chaifan said:

I agree with whoever posted above that Serena will likely be given asylum and will get Noah back

Or maybe they are setting up a whole thing for The Testaments series

Spoiler

When Noah will be conflicted about helping teenage Nichole and they will be either romantically involved, or great allies, or fierce enemies, or maybe even grow up together like siblings. 

With these writers, one can wait anything that completely moves away from the original text. I can see so many possible stories coming out of the book, maybe even much better plots the writers will come up with

[Haleth]

The thing about the flashback is that it was in June's mind.  Maybe she imagined the shared moments of eyerolling over the weird birthing tradition or the empathy over the handmaiden's death.  Maybe Serena would have remembered it differently.

I think that stunt of broadcasting the funeral came back to bite Serena.  I don't think the Canadian government would have cared about her border crossing if she hadn't shown herself to be unrepentant and still full in on the Gilead philosophy.

Why in the world would Wheeler's men just let Luke go?

[mytmo]

IMHO Serena was, is, and always will be about Serena.  She will seek to take down Gilead because they did not recognize her as the creator and highest in the heirachy.  Having a baby didn't change that.  I wouldn't be upset to see Serena hanging from the wall one day. 

[Shermie]

It seems that if women like Serena really thought about it, what a concept like Gilead needs is to be run by women, with men in the handmaid role. If fertility is the big problem, then nurturing those who are fertile and ensuring they get pregnant should be the main goal. Who best to take care of women than other women? Men could be sorted and culled by their sperm count, used for physical work, and then for stud use as needed. But that would require an uprising unheard of in history, and since many Gilead women of power are still of the belief that women should acquiesce to their man, it would never work. But it would be an interesting alternate version of this concept.

[paramitch]

I absolutely loved this episode, and for me it was a moving, believable, and heartbreaking culmination of the two parallel lines of Serena and June's storylines all along.

They have, in a way, always been on these converging paths. I thought this episode exploring that, and through the circumstance of June having to be generous enough, and caring enough, to deliver the child of the woman who hurt her so badly, who took her own children from her, was terrific (and beautifully written).

I feel like this moment was clearly foreshadowed not by June, not by Serena, but by Sylvia at the beginning of this season, when she looked into June's eyes and asked her why June needed it to be anyone's fault. "Why does it matter whose fault it is?” Sylvia asked. “So I can hate the right person? So I can hate you?”

For me this was one of the most powerful moments across the entire show -- and a clear recognition that the show knows what it is doing. It can't just be all unending violence and torture and death and hate. Or at least, it can be, but I wouldn't keep watching.

I want these people to learn from their experiences. I want them all to have the prospect of self-recognition, of evolution, of learning, of (where possible) redemption. The most maddening and monstrous thing about Fred wasn't just that he was capable of all those awful things he did, but that he never stopped lying to himself about doing them. He -- right to the end -- was still telling himself June had actually been some kind of a willing mistress to him (even as he continued to call her "Offred!"). I mean, that was what told me Fred was doomed. At least Serena has had moments of clarify -- as has Aunt Lydia, who (FINALLY) seems to be coming to grips with similar self-doubt and examination.

I'm a romantic in a lot of ways (well, a cynic, but a romantic beneath that). I want to believe redemption is possible for people. I am much more interested in watching June find peace beyond violence in dealing with her trauma, and that was the most important aspect of this episode for me -- how it healed June. How it helped June. Who did something brave, and caring, and forgiving, even while knowing it doesn't wipe out all the terrible things Serena has done to her. June's choice here was not only incredibly caring -- especially for someone as terrible as Serena, but it was also one that I believe will absolutely help to heal some of that darkness and violent rage in her soul.

On 10/18/2022 at 11:29 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

June: "We're going to go to that barn."

Serena: "A barn?"

June: "Maybe they have a manger."

Best line of the season. 

I laughed out loud. Fantastic line.

On 10/19/2022 at 9:46 AM, crashdown said:

A lot of people look at the evil things that Serena has done to June as if they were some sort of quantity: Serena has dumped 10 gigawatts of evil into June and *maybe* shown five watts of caring about her, so of course there's no way that those five watts can matter at all in the grand scheme of things. I see those five watts of caring as more qualitative than quantitative: even though they're weak and flickering, they have the ability to make a real difference to how June and Serena feel about each other. They don't cancel out the 10 gigawatts, but they make the picture more complex.

With Serena and June, I've seen a story about two women who are very much alike in many ways and very different in others, who have an instinctive understanding of each other, who actually can be more honest with each other than they can be with any other character. That's compelling to me. I don't think that there's any doubt that they care about each other and try to protect each other, and that was true even when June was seriously thinking that she wanted to kill Serena (which, of course, she never really did, just as Serena didn't want June to die in No Man's Land when she heard that she'd been captured by Wheeler). I think it's very possible (and yeah, I find it kind of beautiful even though many others would find it appalling) that, given their underlying bond, Serena and June can feel some sort of love toward one another even though it's obviously not the ONLY thing that they feel.

I'm not at all sure that June will ever be able to be "friends" with Serena, if that word even makes sense in this context. But I do think that allowing the full complexity of what she feels about Serena (the love, the hate, and the in between) to come to the surface will only help June heal, and that's really the most important thing for her in the end. As far as Serena goes, I think "redemption" is a silly concept with something like this--there's no TV God giving points and taking demerits. Rather, I think that Serena is capable of growth, and June is giving her the chance to grow and learn by saving her life and not letting her cop out as a martyr: essentially, she's saying that she has faith that Serena can be better. The last time June had faith in Serena (when she asked Serena to give up Nichole), Serena ultimately failed her. I hope this time that faith isn't misplaced, but only time will tell.

Thank you for this absolutely perfect post. Beautifully put, and it expresses why I am so invested in Serena and June's relationship as well.

On 10/19/2022 at 3:23 PM, kitkat343 said:

Serena as a victim isn't true - her hitting Rita after the baby shower when Rita was just trying to help her was an example of the monstrous aspect of her personality, but I think she could at least make a decent case for it.

I have so often wished for a scene where Serena apologized to Rita for that, and it has just never ever happened. I still hope for it, honestly. Just for Rita's sake (I adore Rita).

On 10/21/2022 at 2:24 PM, crashdown said:

One thing that people forget about June is that she's pretty religious herself, although not in the Gilead way. She insisted on baptizing Hannah, and she clearly *does* believe in a Christian God. The difference between Serena's Gilead-style religion and June's is actually (in my opinion) a major theme of the show as a whole: the struggle between Old Testament religion and ethics (the eye-for-an-eye style of retributive justice we see in Gilead) and New Testament Christian notions of forgiveness and grace. That struggle has been personified in June all season, and it came to a culmination in "No Man's Land." June tried her hand at Old Testament retributive justice in Fred's murder, and it didn't work for her. In "No Man's Land," she's choosing New Testament morality over Old Testament beliefs. I think that's awesome, and I also think it's both moving and psychologically consistent. I'm not religious myself, and I'm definitely not a Christian, but I say as someone who has spent a lot of time studying religion, ethics, and philosophy that retributive justice is ethically inferior to forgoing it and rising above. June helping Serena and clasping her hand is much more satisfying to me than June's ripping Serena's womb apart and stealing Noah from her.  June is showing the same faith in Serena to be a good parent to Noah that she had showed when she asked Serena to give up Nichole. That original faith was misplaced, because Serena ultimately failed her with Nichole. It might be misplaced again--I hope it won't--but in any case, just the *act* of that leap of faith is inspiring and beautiful.

Again, this is really lovely, and eloquently put. You're so right that June tried for some old-fashioned, Old-Testament "eye for an eye" response to her own sufferings (most clearly with Fred's execution), and I love that the show really burrowed into showing what that did to June. It poisoned her temporarily; it didn't heal her. She didn't feel better. She arguably felt worse (and felt even less connected to her friends and husband).

On 10/21/2022 at 5:49 PM, crashdown said:

They really do have each other’s number in the way that, like, your best friend just like knows what you’re going to do and knows everything about you.

And with that amount of insight into another person, you have to have a certain amount of empathy for them, and know where they’re coming from and see enough of yourself in them . . .  I do think Serena and June have a strange bond. And it was interesting to think about what it could’ve been like at the very beginning, if there was like a different way this relationship could’ve gone, you know? Obviously it’s a horrible situation . . . But to think that there was like another world where they would kind of get each other, you know? It might’ve gone in a different direction.

But then, the corruption of Gilead is that it sours every relationship that it touches. Because it’s not possible really to have a friendship or a real relationship in a totalitarian system, right? What totalitarianism steals from you is ultimately your ability to really relate to other people in an unguarded, intimate way.

****

(I still think that the flashback is an unfortunate retcon, but it also neatly gets around the trauma bond charge, since it posits a bond before trauma. I suppose it's *barely* possible that there was a little window early on when Serena appreciated June after first meeting her and before everything started to go south after Fred started playing Scrabble with her. Barely!)

Thanks for sharing this! It's interesting to get the writer's perspective because I've felt a lot of what she talks about there as subtext, although I do think she is perhaps romanticizing their connection a bit (and, er, overlooking Serena's many acts of violence and oppression against poor June).

I will say that I didn't mind the retcon because I found it pretty believable. Even after the show's intro, there were little flashes where Serena and June would look at one another and know what the other was thinking. Sometimes it was scary; other times, it was a little poignant, because yes, there was this sense that when they didn't loathe each other, they simply got each other.

This actually made it worse for me when Serena would then return to abusing June again afterward, and that was the pattern for a long time. It does feel like this is something different, and a genuine sea change, so we'll see how it goes.

On 10/22/2022 at 1:32 PM, chaifan said:

@crashdown Also, I don't think June's helping Serena give birth has anything to do with feminism, or anti-feminism, or tropes of feminism, but just being human. 

I am glad that they've made this change in June.  Hell-bent-on-revenge June was tiring.  OK, June is pretty much tiring.  But there's some growth here, and I should give them credit for that. 

Luke just being let go was the most unbelievable part of this episode.  He would have been beaten to death for the fun of it, or shot in the head, or both. 

Yeah, that was how I felt about June helping Serena. It was something she felt she had to do on a level that went beyond her own suffering (although I do think that her helping Serena is an incredibly generous and good thing for June's healing).

I bought them letting Luke go because it wasn't Gilead proper. They didn't want to start incidents (Luke has become something of a public figure), they were just acting out of self-interest so only June was valuable.

On 10/22/2022 at 5:44 PM, crashdown said:

Well, Lizzie and Yvonne obviously ship Serena/June, and shippers gonna ship! I certainly don't think that June feels any simple love toward Serena. (Serena, on the other hand, DOES love June in an uncomplicated way at this precise moment, but she's incredibly vulnerable and has no other options. Love is easier in that state of mind, and it might change by the next episode.) However, I do think that "love" is one of the several things that June feels toward Serena (even if it only occurs in flickering flashes), and that "I didn't want to" bit was June's being absolutely open and vulnerable about that to Serena--and Serena recognized it for what it is. It's a very emotionally laden few lines, and I love to watch it.

All of this. Also, I am an incurable, weak shipper type of a person, both in a romantic and nonromantic shipper sense. So I'm definitely on that spectrum here.

On 10/24/2022 at 8:30 PM, bettername2come said:

June had a moment when she was holding the child and had a crazy smile where I think she was totally thinking of killing that baby in front of Serena before she clicked back into herself and sincerely told Serena he was perfect. 

I loved that little nuance. I did think it was deliberate, and I liked that you could see it cross June's mind for the briefest flash -- what if I made her suffer? -- but then of course June's humanity and motherhood instantly kicked in and she was able to respond with perfect truth and warmth that the baby was perfect.

On 10/29/2022 at 6:56 AM, Shermie said:

It seems that if women like Serena really thought about it, what a concept like Gilead needs is to be run by women, with men in the handmaid role. If fertility is the big problem, then nurturing those who are fertile and ensuring they get pregnant should be the main goal. Who best to take care of women than other women? Men could be sorted and culled by their sperm count, used for physical work, and then for stud use as needed. But that would require an uprising unheard of in history, and since many Gilead women of power are still of the belief that women should acquiesce to their man, it would never work. But it would be an interesting alternate version of this concept.

Thank you! I have been waiting for someone to point this out.

The interesting thing is that this is by far the more biologically smart and feasible situation, with a higher chance for success statistically. On a purely biological level, women were not built for monogamy, and some scientists argue that the reason women are multi-orgasmic is that they are able to have sexual encounters with multiple partners (kind of like flowers and bees), increasing their chances for conception. So that would be an incredibly interesting (and decidedly non-Gileadean) reverse-engineering of this story. 

[crashdown]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

I feel like this moment was clearly foreshadowed not by June, not by Serena, but by Sylvia at the beginning of this season, when she looked into June's eyes and asked her why June needed it to be anyone's fault. "Why does it matter whose fault it is?” Sylvia asked. “So I can hate the right person? So I can hate you?”

For me this was one of the most powerful moments across the entire show -- and a clear recognition that the show knows what it is doing. It can't just be all unending violence and torture and death and hate. Or at least, it can be, but I wouldn't keep watching.

Yes, exactly. It was also foreshadowed in that first episode by June's becoming unmoored at the fact that she wasn't going to be punished for Fred's death by the legal authorities. She says something like "There can't be no punishment," and the Canadian officer answers that "That's between you and your deity of choice, but the Crown has no quarrel with you." That broke June's ideas of retributive justice in which you commit a crime, you're guilty of that crime (that crime is "your fault!"), and you're punished for that crime. I think both Syl's speech and June's not being punished for Fred's death start to set June up for her ultimate actions and attitude in "No Man's Land."

One other thing that I wanted to say about this episode, now that you've given me the chance, is that I really appreciated the subtlety of the interactions between June and Serena in the "I didn't want to" scene even more on rewatch. When June first starts talking about how Hannah had a hard time nursing, Serena isn't really listening--she's just besotted with Noah, and June isn't really on her radar. But midway through June's speech, Serena suddenly becomes really *aware* of her: she stops looking at Noah and just looks at June as June says that sometimes she had to miss work because of Hannah's colds, sometimes she couldn't miss work, and sometimes (this one delivered as a confession) she didn't want to miss work. What June is saying is really a tentative olive branch to Serena, since it's something that they both care about (how work is important to both of them). Serena takes that olive branch and is finally able to ask why June didn't kill her when she had the chance, and (after a little deflection), June answers with the "I didn't want to" delivered more honestly and vulnerably than anything June has said to Serena ever. It's just like a little onion of honesty peeling layer by layer, that scene. It's just brilliant.

Edited November 22, 2022 by crashdown