S01.E09: The Green Council

[MrsR]

I don't think a dragon could slip through a staircase. The PTB didn't know that Rhaenys was on the loose.  

I'm pretty sure that Rhaenys can control her dragon even when she's not on it, I would suspect there's some dead guards in Melys' belly.

[go4luca]

Sometimes you make a choice to just sit back and enjoy a show.  It may work, it may not.  I work in the film industry so I've learned to turn certain parts of my brain off.  Otherwise I'll be sitting there, picking things apart wondering how did they get this shot/location permitted to allow for this effect or how long did it take to get a specific shot and how many times did they have to re-set and do another take.

This type of show is my favorite genre.  I wasn't wild about GOT's final season but I have greatly missed the show.  So although HOTD isn't perfect, I'm still enjoying the blazes out of it.  The casting, the actors, costume design and especially the dragons, have been most intriguing.

At some point you make a decision whether or not to stick with a show.  If it doesn't work for you, that's okay.  I for one will greatly miss this show after the final episode, including the back and forth discussions we share.

It's going to be a long wait for season 2.  Two years is a long time.  I hope I'm still around to enjoy it.

[ICantDoThatDave]

39 minutes ago, go4luca said:

At some point you make a decision whether or not to stick with a show.  If it doesn't work for you, that's okay.

Totally agreed.  It just seems like this episode was one of those breaking points.  Which is why there's so much discussion over this particular issue.

[Roccos Brother]

2 hours ago, MrsR said:

The dragon pit is designed to keep dragons in, not people out.

.... Except for the part where the failure to keep people out subsequently resulted in a failure to keep the dragons in, but okay.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Roccos Brother

[Constantinople]

Admit it.

Everyone will watching the coronation of Charles III to see if a dragon bursts through the floor of Westminster Abbey.

[MrsR]

How many rogue dragon riders have there been trying to hijack a dragon from King's Landing? Cause they're the only people who could get a dragon and take it out. The average person would not survive an attempt.

So to answer my own question, I think none.

They've never been a reason to guard against a dragon rider.  They're the royal fucking family. Who can call out to their dragon through a gate. And tell their dragon to kill the guards. And eat the guards. 

Yep, a flaw in the system she could exploit.

[ICantDoThatDave]

And if you had one, in your keep, who you knew about & were skeptical of enough to keep her locked in her room... how many of them would you take special precautions to guard against?

[Oscirus]

When has their ever been proof that Targs can control dragons with their minds? They're not starks, they dont have warging abilities.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

Totally agreed.  It just seems like this episode was one of those breaking points.  Which is why there's so much discussion over this particular issue.

Fair enough.  🙂

[jeansheridan]

22 hours ago, Roseanna said:

On 10/18/2022 at 8:53 PM, Oscirus said:

When your mother who can barely look at you or even sit near you calls you an imbecile  after you ask her if she loves you, you tend to get an entirely different message. If that was her intention, that was a big ole fail.

Expand  

If they were modern people.

I appreciate you are a history buff but this is a fantasy world. They ARE modern, for this world. His question doesn't seen odd to me. He is miserable and feels not capable of meeting expectations.  

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

When has their ever been proof that Targs can control dragons with their minds? They're not starks, they dont have warging abilities.

How did Dany's dragons know to burn ships in slavers' Bay? Or help her out in the temple in season 2? Or find her after she was captured by the dothaki? There's a mystical bond. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I appreciate you are a history buff but this is a fantasy world. They ARE modern, for this world. His question doesn't seen odd to me. He is miserable and feels not capable of meeting expectations. 

That may be, but then he asked a wrong question. ILY from his mom can't make him a competent king.       

Continuing:

We have seen earlier two times when Alicent has reproached Aegon for bullying his kid brother and raping the servant girl. In both cases he had acted wrongly but instead of confessing it, showing penance and promising to behave better in the future, his answer was that nothing he did has been enough for her.   

Now, that wasn't only an odd answer in that kind of situation, but we have never shown that he does - or tries to act - something to make her proud of him.

Aegon's behavior shows that he has been pampered and taught to feel entitled - obviously nothing has been demanded of him until it was too late.

Also, one can't help but notice that there are no scenes between Viserys and Aegon. After Viserys confessed to Rhaenyra that he had ignored his daughter, he did just the same to his younger children although it would have been his duty, rather than Alicent's, raise especially his sons after they became seven years old.

[Meredith Quill]

To level the precise same criticism at Alicent and especially at Otto, that has been aimed at Rhaenyra (about her two eldest boys) repeatedly; why weren't they (even if secretly) preparing Aegon to rule? Otto had been harping on about it since Aegon was a baby, yet he did nothing about it whatsoever apparently. Not even installing him as the royal cupbearer as Rhaenyra once was... (if not before, then certainly after, Viserys was incapacitated - when the Greens were, for all intents and purposes, running the show) let alone anything else (covertly at least), despite having every intention of putting the crown on his head... 🤔 hmm. Instead, they left him unchecked to fill his time with every kind of debauchery Flea Bottom had to offer & worse. Top notch training right there!

To flip Tyland Lannister's own words; "Yes, he knows how to ride a dragon but what does he know of running the Seven Kingdoms?" 

Answer: Less than zip, zero, zilch.

[paigow]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Admit it.

Everyone will watching the coronation of Charles III to see if a dragon bursts through the floor of Westminster Abbey.

Piloted by Harry The Untitled...

[Cristofle]

It's clear at this point that Otto and Alicent did a terrible job raising Aegon to be king (Viserys was also a generally terrible father to him, of course, but these are the two that explicitly wanted him to be king, versus Viserys absolutely refused to budge from his position that Rhaenyra was his named heir). Aegon is a terrible person, and a dangerous person, but there's not much indication he was ALWAYS that way and he has some level of self-awareness. The interactions between Alicent and Aegon have been cold for the past several episodes and the one interaction we've seen him have with Otto was pretty cold too. Honestly, I think they have the same view towards Aegon that one could argue Rhaenyra has about herself. They think Aegon is entitled to the throne by birth and have never done anything to prepare him to actually take it. Whatever they HAVE done has backfired massively, as he was so opposed to becoming king that he tried to flee. 

[Roseanna]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:38 PM, SilverStormm said:

To level the precise same criticism at Alicent and especially at Otto, that has been aimed at Rhaenyra (about her two eldest boys) repeatedly; why weren't they (even if secretly) preparing Aegon to rule? Otto had been harping on about it since Aegon was a baby, yet he did nothing about it whatsoever apparently. Not even installing him as the royal cupbearer as Rhaenyra once was... (if not before, then certainly after, Viserys was incapacitated - when the Greens were, for all intents and purposes, running the show) let alone anything else (covertly at least), despite having every intention of putting the crown on his head... 🤔 hmm. Instead, they left him unchecked to fill his time with every kind of debauchery Flea Bottom had to offer & worse. Top notch training right there!

To flip Tyland Lannister's own words; "Yes, he knows how to ride a dragon but what does he know of running the Seven Kingdoms?" 

Answer: Less than zip, zero, zilch.

Well, Alicent has been critiziced for not showing love towards her children. I think that at least of the problem was that she was left to raise them alone.

Formerly, it was the mother's job to give children unconditional love, i.e. love them whatever they did. Instead, it was the father's job to guide children to the world and teach them general norms.

Although Alicent's sons were royal, as an adult Otto could have used his authority towards them and taught them to behave themselves.

Also Christon is to blame. He taught them to fight but otherswise?        

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Also ignoring the fact that locking the dragon in the sept wouldve done nothing, what were the guards hoping to accomplish by closing the door? Were they secretly team black, advocating for the extermination of the royal family?

They were probably thinking about keeping the door between them and fiery death.  I mean, Meleys could've easily torched the door and them as well, but I think they were just panicking.

14 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So she wasnt trying to escape then, she just killed a whole lotta towns folk to put the fear of god in the greens before flying off. That makes what she did even worse than thinking she was going to kill them if not for the mother bond between her and Alicent

I think we'll just have to accept that no one among the ruling class in Westeros (that we've seen) gives a shit about the smallfolk and whether they live or die.

14 hours ago, ICantDoThatDave said:

But the initial question about how this whole scenario would work was "why did she go through the ceiling instead of the front door of Dragonpit?"  The answer was "so she could escape, since she couldn't (theoretically) escape through the front doors of Dragonpit".

So going towards them to make a point means she was not actually trying to escape, negating the initial theory on why she went through the ceiling.  (also, I have no idea how she survived her dragon crashing through the ceiling - sure, the dragon would, but the rider?) This much Handwavium to try to explain a scene that was clearly just written to "look cool" is a problem, IMO.

Maybe, like most people, there was more than one reason for her actions in the moment.

10 hours ago, ShannaB said:

I just want to say that I am completely in awe of the dragons.  I think we have been given more insight in HOD regarding the bond of rider and dragon.  Look at Leana and Vhagar.  Look at Rhaenys and Meleys.  The bond is empathic and visceral.  Vhagar mourned Laena and Meleys literally showed Rhaenys' seething anger.  Rhaenys held her dragon in check from frying the Greens without any visible movement.  Amazing scene.

Ive been thinking(way too much) that the showrunners are purposely making Daemon and Aemond so similar in looks, demeanor and even their walk.  Yes? No?  there has to be a reason for this beyond an eventual showdown.

With you on both of these things.

[proserpina65]

49 minutes ago, paigow said:

Piloted by Harry The Untitled...

But who gets the eye patch?  Wills?  Kate?  Anne?

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

why weren't they (even if secretly) preparing Aegon to rule?

Oh, they absolutely should've been doing that.  Neither Alicent nor Otto covered themselves in glory regarding Aegon's upbringing and education.

[Roseanna]

16 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Aegon is a terrible person, and a dangerous person, but there's not much indication he was ALWAYS that way and he has some level of self-awareness. The interactions between Alicent and Aegon have been cold for the past several episodes

How could Alicent act differently after Aegon had acted wrongly and showed no ounce of being sorry? 

If not Viserys, then Otto should have dealt things like bullying with the teenage Aegon.  

[Cristofle]

29 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

How could Alicent act differently after Aegon had acted wrongly and showed no ounce of being sorry? 

Since he's been older/been shown to be a rapist, I can't blame Alicent for being disgusted with him. When he was younger, it was mostly "he's picking on his brother in front of Rhaenyra's kids, he drinks too much, he doesn't want to marry his sister." Like, her yelling at him for not being there when Aemond had his eye cut out was pretty ridiculous; how was he supposed to know what was going on? The rest of his behavioral issues might have been frustrating, but not necessarily worthy to treat him with general disdain and disgust. There are ways to correct behavior that at least wouldn't necessarily completely alienate the child, but we never saw Alicent or Otto attempt any such thing. And now he is dangerously unfit and has no real loyalty to anyone, least of all either one of them. Maybe that was inevitable, maybe he's just a sociopath, but they didn't necessarily show it like that. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Speaking of dragons, was it ever mentioned what happened to Laenor's dragon Seasmoke? Did he take it with him on his exile and started telling people "This is just my pet lizard, he is a little big, yes, but I feed him well, haha"? Did Seasmoke get a new rider and if, yes, who? You would think that would be pretty important

Edited October 20, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[MrsR]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

When has their ever been proof that Targs can control dragons with their minds? They're not starks, they dont have warging abilities.

I myself suggested Rhaenys probably called out to Melys through a gate.

But yes it has been established that dragons have a spiritual/mysterical bond with their riders. 

Remember Drogon coming to Dany's rescue during the attack in the fighting pit?

Edited October 20, 2022 by MrsR

[Oscirus]

On 10/20/2022 at 7:16 AM, jeansheridan said:

How did Dany's dragons know to burn ships in slavers' Bay? Or help her out in the temple in season 2? Or find her after she was captured by the dothaki? There's a mystical bond. 

Season 2 was a mystical situation and those other 2 are d and d creations, as far as George goes there are no such mental bonds between rider and dragon.

On 10/20/2022 at 12:38 PM, SilverStormm said:

To level the precise same criticism at Alicent and especially at Otto, that has been aimed at Rhaenyra (about her two eldest boys) repeatedly; why weren't they (even if secretly) preparing Aegon to rule? Otto had been harping on about it since Aegon was a baby, yet he did nothing about it whatsoever apparently. Not even installing him as the royal cupbearer as Rhaenyra once was... (if not before, then certainly after, Viserys was incapacitated - when the Greens were, for all intents and purposes, running the show) let alone anything else (covertly at least), despite having every intention of putting the crown on his head... 🤔 hmm. Instead, they left him unchecked to fill his time with every kind of debauchery Flea Bottom had to offer & worse. Top notch training right there!

To flip Tyland Lannister's own words; "Yes, he knows how to ride a dragon but what does he know of running the Seven Kingdoms?" 

Answer: Less than zip, zero, zilch.

Yea Alicent is a shit mother in general who leaves her children to figure it out for themselves. Shes done such a bad job on the basics that raising Aegon to lead has been the least of her problems. Which is why Id imagine she doesnt get called out for it.

On 10/20/2022 at 3:07 PM, MrsR said:

I myself suggested Rhaenys probably called out to Melys through a gate.

But yes it has been established that dragons have a magical bond with their riders. 

Remember Drogon coming to Dany's rescue during the attack in the fighting pit?

If such a bond existed, why wouldnt dreamfyre, vhagar and sunfire have come out of the pit and fucked melys up since their riders were clearly in danger?

[MrsR]

Were they locked in the pit?

And as we know Rhaenys didn't hurt them. 

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Yea Alicent is a shit mother in general who leaves her children to figure it out for themselves. Shes done such a bad job on the basics that raising Aegon to lead has been the least of her problems. Which is why Id imagine she doesnt get called out for it.

And Otto aka wannabe kingmaker?

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 10/20/2022 at 12:38 PM, SilverStormm said:

To level the precise same criticism at Alicent and especially at Otto, that has been aimed at Rhaenyra (about her two eldest boys) repeatedly; why weren't they (even if secretly) preparing Aegon to rule? Otto had been harping on about it since Aegon was a baby, yet he did nothing about it whatsoever apparently. Not even installing him as the royal cupbearer as Rhaenyra once was... (if not before, then certainly after, Viserys was incapacitated - when the Greens were, for all intents and purposes, running the show) let alone anything else (covertly at least), despite having every intention of putting the crown on his head... 🤔 hmm. Instead, they left him unchecked to fill his time with every kind of debauchery Flea Bottom had to offer & worse. Top notch training right there!

To flip Tyland Lannister's own words; "Yes, he knows how to ride a dragon but what does he know of running the Seven Kingdoms?" 

Answer: Less than zip, zero, zilch.

The thing is, Otto doesn't actually care if Aegon is a good leader or not, 'cause he doesn't have to be. He only cares that Aegon is a male Targaryen (having a man sitting on the throne appeases the masses and makes them feel secure) who is his grandson, with it being assumed that Aegon will follow his lead. The very fact that Otto insisted on tracking down and installing Aegon on the throne when the boy didn't want it speaks to that.

If anything, giving him a chance to learn the ropes could have led to him getting his own ideas, which is not what Otto wants. In Otto's mind, Aegon's role is to be the royal chair warmer and look impressive. I'm pretty sure he'll find that his assumptions about Aegon's pliability turn out to be wrong. That's his mistake, and it's meant to be a mistake.

[Oscirus]

59 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

And Otto aka wannabe kingmaker?

Ottos so nonexistent in his grandkids life that I often forget he's a grandfather. I dont imagine Im the only one that does this.

These idiots planned a coup and didnt even bother priming their chosen leader so they could lead through them. It's kind of amazing actually.

[MollyB]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Speaking of dragons, was it ever mentioned what happened to Laenor's dragon Seasmoke?

I wondered about this, too.  With this recent discussion of the emotional/psychic bond between rider and dragon, I wonder if Seasmoke knows that Laenor is not dead?  The point about Drogon saving Danyraes in the Fighting Pit indicates a bond that overcomes geographical limitations.  Seasmoke may not have necessarily followed Leanor and Qarl but he probably isn't letting anyone claim him. I also believe that Rhae and Dae were in on the "death" of Laenor and are keeping Seasmoke in the background for now.  Surprise if one of the Strong boys claims him and confirms Visarys' explanation of the boys' brown hair being a genetic quirk of Targs.  (He said something about his hair or another Targ's hair not turning white until later in life.)  

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

And Otto aka wannabe kingmaker?

A rotten father, grandfather, and all around worst person in Westeros most of the time.

[Meredith Quill]

2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

The thing is, Otto doesn't actually care if Aegon is a good leader or not, 'cause he doesn't have to be. He only cares that Aegon is a male Targaryen (having a man sitting on the throne appeases the masses and makes them feel secure) who is his grandson, with it being assumed that Aegon will follow his lead. The very fact that Otto insisted on tracking down and installing Aegon on the throne when the boy didn't want it speaks to that.

If anything, giving him a chance to learn the ropes could have led to him getting his own ideas, which is not what Otto wants. In Otto's mind, Aegon's role is to be the royal chair warmer and look impressive. I'm pretty sure he'll find that his assumptions about Aegon's pliability turn out to be wrong. That's his mistake, and it's meant to be a mistake.

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Ottos so nonexistent in his grandkids life that I often forget he's a grandfather. I dont imagine Im the only one that does this.

These idiots planned a coup and didnt even bother priming their chosen leader so they could lead through them. It's kind of amazing actually.

Quite. For all his treacherous machinations, Otto isn't so smart. Even Tyrion knew that it's hard to leash a dog once you put a crown on its head.

1 hour ago, MollyB said:

Surprise if one of the Strong boys claims him and confirms Visarys' explanation of the boys' brown hair being a genetic quirk of Targs. 

That theory is a no-go as Jacaerys & Lucaerys (and Joffrey who was given an egg as a babe) already have dragons of their own.

57 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

A rotten father, grandfather, and all around worst person in Westeros most of the time.

Yes.

Except Krispy Kreme still breathes.

[Dac22]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Except Krispy Kreme still breathes.

While I understand why people don't like him and such, it amazes me when people act like he's the worst person on the show so far.

All he has done so far is kill two people over the first nine episodes; one of which was technically an enemy (as well as possibly an accident?). Other than that, he called Rhaenyra a name once and the jerk move of using Jace as a tool to bait Harwin The Imbecile, though I don't think Jace was in danger of actually getting hurt. 

That's nothing compared to what the likes of Larys, Daemon, Rhaenys, Otto, and others have done.  

Even despite his dislike of Rhaenyra, Criston still fought to save her life and that of her kids this episode because that's what Alicent wants. At the very least that has to put him above Otto and Larys who do most things for their own self-serving ends.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dac22

[ShannaB]

15 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So these pit masters with knowledge of dragons heard a dragon crashing through the ceiling and decided to stay where they're at? As opposed to going to confront said dragon? 

Given these circumstances, Rhaenys who had a short window decided to stick around long enough to send an unnecessary message to the greens? That explanation makes her even more of a dumbass

Let's agree to disagree.  If the Pit Masters could get through the rubble or run from the entrance of the pit to the arena that fast, then they wouldn't be in the HOD universe but, rather, the Marvel Universe or DC Universe.  We are talking 3 to  5 minutes tops from when Rhaenys burst through that floor and Rhae decide how to save herself and her dragon and give the finger to the Greens.  If she called to her dragon for rescue in the Red Keep, then Meleys would have destroyed a portion of the Keep killing dozens if not hundreds of innocents.  If Rhaenys tried to get Meleys out of the entrance of the Pit then all guards, pit masters and probably other innocents would have fried and the floor could have caved in killing hundreds and  Rhaenys and Meleys could have been killed or mortally wounded.  If Rhaenys did noting then she was a 'dead woman walking' with Otto around and then  there would be an enraged dragon bent on destruction   Oh! and then Otto and Aemond could blast Dragonstone and Driftwood and kill 100's of innocents in a surprise attack.  I see no scenario where innocents DON"T die.  I am okay with Rhaenys' decision given the time restraints and circumstances in this setting and, yes, the deaths are unfortunate.  I do not think Rhaenys is a dumbass and that she would have been a wise but a threatened Queen due to the patriarchal attitude.

I called the dragon and rider bond empathic and visceral but I also like what one poster said...'mythical'.  Good word. This made me think of that final scene between Jon and Drogon when the dragon could have fried Jon for killing his mistress but instead turned and torched the Iron Throne.  This makes me edge toward sentient as well.

[The Kings Foot]

52 minutes ago, Dac22 said:

While I understand why people don't like him and such, it amazes me when people act like he's the worst person on the show so far.

All he has done so far is kill two people over the first nine episodes; one of which was technically an enemy (as well as possibly an accident?). Other than that, he called Rhaenyra a name once and the jerk move of using Jace as a tool to bait Harwin The Imbecile, though I don't think Jace was in danger of actually getting hurt. 

That's nothing compared to what the likes of Larys, Daemon, Rhaenys, Otto, and others have done.  

Even despite his dislike of Rhaenyra, Criston still fought to save her life and that of her kids this episode because that's what Alicent wants. At the very least that has to put him above Otto and Larys who do most things for their own self-serving ends.

A lot of people are embarrassed they liked him early on so they're treating him like he's their ex boyfriend.

[paigow]

Criston character arc milestones.

Beat Daemon at tournament 

Princess bodyguard job 

Sexual harassment victim 

Sympathy ending argument leading to murder, attempted suicide and new job as evil sensei.

More murder.

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Dac22 said:

While I understand why people don't like him and such, it amazes me when people act like he's the worst person on the show so far.

All he has done so far is kill two people over the first nine episodes; one of which was technically an enemy (as well as possibly an accident?). Other than that, he called Rhaenyra a name once and the jerk move of using Jace as a tool to bait Harwin The Imbecile, though I don't think Jace was in danger of actually getting hurt. 

That's nothing compared to what the likes of Larys, Daemon, Rhaenys, Otto, and others have done.  

Even despite his dislike of Rhaenyra, Criston still fought to save her life and that of her kids this episode because that's what Alicent wants. At the very least that has to put him above Otto and Larys who do most things for their own self-serving ends.

He's a smarmy, smug, hateful, bitter little twat. Simples. But don't get it twisted, I also loathe Otto et al, heh, but Krispy gives me a visceral reaction and makes me wanna puke. Jmo. Blech.

1 hour ago, The Kings Foot said:

A lot of people are embarrassed they liked him early on so they're treating him like he's their ex boyfriend.

As an authority on myself - I must protest. As a book reader - I have loathed him for years before the show was a twinkle in anyone's eye. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, ShannaB said:

Let's agree to disagree.  If the Pit Masters could get through the rubble or run from the entrance of the pit to the arena that fast, then they wouldn't be in the HOD universe but, rather, the Marvel Universe or DC Universe.  We are talking 3 to  5 minutes tops from when Rhaenys burst through that floor and Rhae decide how to save herself and her dragon and give the finger to the Greens.  If she called to her dragon for rescue in the Red Keep, then Meleys would have destroyed a portion of the Keep killing dozens if not hundreds of innocents.  If Rhaenys tried to get Meleys out of the entrance of the Pit then all guards, pit masters and probably other innocents would have fried and the floor could have caved in killing hundreds and  Rhaenys and Meleys could have been killed or mortally wounded.  If Rhaenys did noting then she was a 'dead woman walking' with Otto around and then  there would be an enraged dragon bent on destruction   Oh! and then Otto and Aemond could blast Dragonstone and Driftwood and kill 100's of innocents in a surprise attack.  I see no scenario where innocents DON"T die.  I am okay with Rhaenys' decision given the time restraints and circumstances in this setting and, yes, the deaths are unfortunate.  I do not think Rhaenys is a dumbass and that she would have been a wise but a threatened Queen due to the patriarchal attitude.

I called the dragon and rider bond empathic and visceral but I also like what one poster said...'mythical'.  Good word. This made me think of that final scene between Jon and Drogon when the dragon could have fried Jon for killing his mistress but instead turned and torched the Iron Throne.  This makes me edge toward sentient as well.

 There was a coronation there and as far as they knew, Rhaenys was imprisoned so why is the dragon pit all of a sudden the most heavily guarded place in kings landing? Theres no reason to guard it anywhere near as heavily as you're implying, thats just a way of justifying her "bad ass" moment of crashing through the ceiling.

The only realistic reason why shed do that instead of going through the front door is to either kill off team green before changing her mind cuz Alicent was being a good mother or to flip off team green before flying off. Either way it was a stupid thing to do and will have huge ramifications on the future

[Meredith Quill]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

 There was a coronation there and as far as they knew, Rhaenys was imprisoned so why is the dragon pit all of a sudden the most heavily guarded place in kings landing? Theres no reason to guard it anywhere near as heavily as you're implying, thats just a way of justifying her "bad ass" moment of crashing through the ceiling.

The only realistic reason why shed do that instead of going through the front door is to either kill off team green before changing her mind cuz Alicent was being a good mother or to flip off team green before flying off. Either way it was a stupid thing to do and will have huge ramifications on the future

I'm not going to argue for or against what she did as the viewer part of me enjoyed the scene but the analytical part of me went 'wut?' but whhhyyyyy? #mixedemotions

However, speaking of ramifications, one message it surely sent loud and clear to the smallfolk - is that there's a blatant divide over the legitimacy of Aegon's coronation, so things aren't as clear cut as the Hand portrayed them to be... and

[magdalene]

On 10/17/2022 at 8:17 AM, AntFTW said:

The blonde child that the twins see in the child fighting pits, are we to assume that is a Targaryen bastard child?

He and the other bastards are the consequences of Aegons sexy fun times - the ones that Mommie Alicent never knew about and so couldn't dose with moon tea.

I don't agree with the notion that Aemond is the nice, decent brother but I will give him props for trying to protect his sister while Aegon was hiding behind Mommie.

The final Rhaenys razzle dazzle reminded me of GOT season 8  writing. Lots of collateral damage and no actual threats taken out.

Edited October 20, 2022 by magdalene

[paigow]

Aemond is the Westeros version of Hans Gruber. Intelligent, Rational, Evil wrapped in a facade of politeness. 

11 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I don't agree with the notion that Aemond is the nice, decent brother but I will give him props for trying to protect his sister while Aegon was hiding behind Mommie.

[go4luca]

3 hours ago, Dac22 said:

While I understand why people don't like him and such, it amazes me when people act like he's the worst person on the show so far. 

For me, the way his character has evolved shows Krispy Kreme (to borrow @SilverStormm's nic - feel free to charge me a fee), has no concept of honor. 

3 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Other than that, he called Rhaenyra a name once

Once or not, that was the final straw for me.  I absolutely abhor the "C" word.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, MollyB said:

I wondered about this, too.  With this recent discussion of the emotional/psychic bond between rider and dragon, I wonder if Seasmoke knows that Laenor is not dead?

Of course, by now he might be dead. It's been six years and he is a warrior by profession after all; he and Qarl probably kept that up after going to Essos and became sellswords or something. Even if Laenor bought them a nice manor house in one of the Free Cities, he'd probably grow restless at some point like he did while he was married to Rhaenyra. And an accident or illness could have taken him out offscreen at any time. Which would leave Seasmoke free to be claimed.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Dac22]

8 minutes ago, go4luca said:

For me, the way his character has evolved shows Krispy Kreme (to borrow @SilverStormm's nic - feel free to charge me a fee), has no concept of honor. 

The thing is nobody really has a concept of honor.

The culture in Westeros is that characters like Criston/Jaime/etc are told they need to be obsessed with honor, but what that ends up doing is messing them up because it's an impossible minefield.

In this setting, standing by as the king essentially nukes a city of innocents or rapes whoever they wish is considered the 'honorable' thing to do. If Viserys theoretically wanted Luke's eye, then honor would have demanded that Criston/Westerling/etc do the deed. 

Then there's Jaime being absolutely correct when he talks about how oaths and vows are always coming into conflict with one another. That to uphold one means to forsake another. 

The thing is the concept of honor is basically a lie which is why those characters frequently end up jaded, dead, or doing terrible things to uphold said honor. 

Criston has ultimately decided his 'honor' dictates that he supports Alicent and her cause as a result of her saving him at his lowest moment. He's made his own choice about what honor means to him and he acts according to that concept. 

And while I will never ague about the use of that word, it is a pretty frequent insult throughout ASOIAF/GoT.

[magdalene]

37 minutes ago, go4luca said:

Once or not, that was the final straw for me.  I absolutely abhor the "C" word. 

It's a more gender-neutral cuss word in the UK.   Men call men c**t they really don't like. Daemon called Otto the "C" word. To me it is a big no-no when a man calls a woman that  - so one more strike against Criston, lol. He is the douche bag champion.

[Meredith Quill]

47 minutes ago, magdalene said:

It's a more gender-neutral cuss word in the UK.   Men call men c**t they really don't like. Daemon called Otto the "C" word. To me it is a big no-no when a man calls a woman that  - so one more strike against Criston, lol. He is the douche bag champion.

Yes, here it's an equal opportunity insult. Men call men it (this is probably the way it's most often used tbh), women call men it (not unusual) and so on and so forth. And while it may be considered a top tier insult, it isn't too far above 'bastard' nowdays. However, some people will still spell it out a la "see you next Tuesday". Additionally, insulting each other jokingly is pretty common, esp among close friends who we're comfortable around; ex. 'you lucky bastard'. It's all in the context. Generally speaking, if we're super polite, we either don't know you very well or just don't like you, heh. I didn't make the rules, I just know them 😉

[Dac22]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

To me it is a big no-no when a man calls a woman that  - so one more strike against Criston, lol. He is the douche bag champion.

And where does not only referring to a woman as being your bronze you-know-what, but killing said woman simply because you don't like them fall on the no-no list?

Again, I perfectly understand why people don't like the character and there is obviously no need to justify it. While I still find Criston okay-ish as a character (not among my favorites) so far, I have no problem admitting he is a douchebag. Most of them are on some level, honestly.

But if we are going to invoke moral actions and such, then I think there needs to be consistency across the board rather than just invoking it against characters we don't like. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dac22

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I'm not going to argue for or against what she did as the viewer part of me enjoyed the scene but the analytical part of me went 'wut?' but whhhyyyyy? #mixedemotions

However, speaking of ramifications, one message it surely sent loud and clear to the smallfolk - is that there's a blatant divide over the legitimacy of Aegon's coronation, so things aren't as clear cut as the Hand portrayed them to be... and

One thing rhanys did that works on top of what you said is she was loud leaving there. Even if they were able to catch and kill her, theres no keeping it quiet till they could lock down alliances anymore

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

ome people will still spell it out a la "see you next Tuesday".

I never knew that, ha.  And yes, male friends calling each other c**t in a kind of joking and almost loving way, that does happen. Like you say it's all in the context.

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Dac22 said:

And where does not only referring to a woman as being your bronze you-know-what, but killing said woman simply because you don't like them fall on the no-no list?

I don't know why I bother, but here goes -  so what if he called her a bronze bitch?  I bet she called him worse. The way she talked to him, she could handle herself. They didn't like each other.  As a character she was  on the show only long enough to remind people - in case anybody had forgotten - that Daemon is a ruthless character. She was a plot point.

Now, Criston Cole is a character that I have gotten to know over the course of the season and to me he is a thug who has hated on a woman for many years because she rejected his  marriage proposal in a perfectly civil way when she was a girl.  Calling her a  c**t for that.

This is a fictional show with fictional characters and I don't really have to defend why I prefer a ruthless bastard who has murdered people over a douche bag thug who has also murdered people. I just do.

My no,no list is really a list that depends on perspective and context, and what is the power balance in the situation.  If a man calls me an awesome bitch, which somebody did once, I'll take it as a compliment.

If character Daemon calls character Heleana a bitch I won't like it. Shrugs.  Context and power balance and perspective.

Edited October 21, 2022 by magdalene

[CeeBeeGee]

On 10/17/2022 at 1:48 AM, bunnyblue said:

Helaena is too good for these asshole Hightowers. In her own little way, I feel she was showing her displeasure with Aegon being crowned when she wouldn't even look at him during his crowning. She just kept her head turned to the side. The things she has endured and the things she has seen in her dreams - she is the only Green I care for. 

I absolutely love Helaena. That side head was everything. I was reminded of Vera Caslavska--Czech gymnast in the '68 Games who dominated the gymnastics events (won AA plus so many event medals the judging started fudging the scores to favor the Soviet gymnasts so that Caslavska had to either share the gold or take silver--she protested the results by looking down and away as the Soviet anthem was played--total baller).

I love her predictions, I love her integrity, I love that she clearly despises Aegon and isn't afraid to speak out ("he mostly ignores you"). She is awesome.

On 10/17/2022 at 7:46 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Otto made me really miss Tywin Lannister. Similar type characters, but somehow Tywin Lannister was so much more likable.

I chalk it up to Season 2 Tywin's interactions with Arya at Harrenhall. That whole arc was incredibly endearing--intelligence (Tywin) recognizing, admiring and rewarding like intelligence (Arya). And it puts Tywin's statement to Cersei--"You aren't as smart as you think you are"--into an interesting context. Bet he would've been a better father to someone like Arya. (The main reason he was a shit father to Tyrion--who was also "someone like Arya"--was because Tyrion's mother died giving birth to him, and both Cersei and Tywin blamed him for it.)

6 hours ago, go4luca said:

Once or not, that was the final straw for me.  I absolutely abhor the "C" word.  

Yep. The C-bomb deployed like that--not between two British men, in affection but from a man toward a woman, with contempt, especially knowing their shared history--he's a POS. 

[Dac22]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

Now, Criston Cole is a character that I have gotten to know over the course of the season and to me he is a thug who has hated on a woman for many years because she rejected his  marriage proposal in a perfectly civil way when she was a girl. 

I absolutely won't disagree with anything else you wrote, but I think this could be an overly simplistic view of the situation. 

My feeling is Criston's beef with Rhaenyra was the result of someone he trusted and was loyal to effectively betraying him. As Milly pointed out, Criston had been her loyal confidant/friend for several years prior to that night.

It's her using him at the expense of his honor and oaths that she knew he valued that he seemingly has an issue with. You don't expect someone you deeply trust to use you as a tool like that.

The rejection was a small part of the bigger problem of her using him in his mind. If he knew the situation beforehand, he certainly wouldn't have gone through with it. Criston's mistake is believing that Rhaenyra actually cared about him or what was best for him in that moment.

So while it certainly isn't right, I don't think it is so simple as her rejecting him being the problem. Again, that's just my take on things based on the substance provided so far.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dac22

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, magdalene said:

Now, Criston Cole is a character that I have gotten to know over the course of the season and to me he is a thug who has hated on a woman for many years because she rejected his  marriage proposal in a perfectly civil way when she was a girl.  Calling her a  c**t for that.

What if Christon Cole were a woman and Rhaenyra were a man? A man had had sex with a woman, she had accepted sex only because she had believed that he truly cared for her but then he had showed that she wasn't good enough to marry but although he would marry, they could continue the relationship.

Of course she had been naive to believe that sex means love and even commitment. Still, wouldn't she have right to be angry and bitter towards him, at least because he wasn't honest with her *before* seducing her?