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Episode Synopsis:

Arondir finds himself a captive; Galadriel and Halbrand explore a legendary kingdom; Elendil is given a new assignment; Nori faces the consequences.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

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Not a fan. Felt more like GOT than LOTR. Yeah, Numenor looked great, but it seems almost entirely populated by assholes. Also, harfoots abandoning people just because they fell behind? I know it's 3,000 years before they become the hobbits we know and love, but it still felt wrong.

If wargs are supposed to be giant wolves, why do they never look like wolves? First it was wombats, now... I don't even know. Haven't the design people ever seen pictures of wolves?

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Didn't love this one either. The dialogues in Numenor were terrible. When the queen regent handed over the sword it felt very snow white and the huntsman.

The orc tunnel scenes could've been a lot more menacing and longer. And that warg ... FFS

The hobbit scenes were just ok, very Bilbo's party and speech. I hope the time they spend on that tribe pays off.

Edited by Aulty
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So, on the one hand from the elder's eulogy speech "left behind" means harfoots getting seriously injured and cannot continue to go on. But on the other hand, we have Nori's family, who can go on, but were forced to be at the back of the caravan, presumably, with no protection from the outer-wilds. What I want to say is... what the f...? Anyways, I'm just counting down the episodes until the "giant" heals Nori's father leg wound. Was surprised it was not this episode.

Mostly liked Numenorian and Orc camp bits. Didn't particularly fancied haarfoot plot in this episode.

Next episode probably gonna be explained why Numenorians hate elves. Also, from the glimpse of Adar, I see that they used Shadow of Mordor video-game for reference how Sauron should look. Interesting.

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6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Yeah, Numenor looked great, but it seems almost entirely populated by assholes.

Everyone is an asshole.  Galadriel might have been just a *bit* less of a jerk in Numenor.  She's in their power, and expecting them to take her to Middle Earth but is a complete bitch about it.

The Harfoots are assholes, unwilling to help each other during their stupid migration.  They're also assholes for living so slovenly.  Wash your faces and comb your hair!

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6 hours ago, Anduin said:

Yeah, Numenor looked great, but it seems almost entirely populated by assholes.

It's hard to tell the difference between the Numenorians from the men from the South Lands from this episode except the Numenorians dressed nicer.  Though so far, I agree it seems most people/elves/dwarves/harfoots in Middle Earth are intolerant assholes no matter where they are.

Can most Numenorians tell that Galadriel is an elf even when she covers up her ears?  It seemed so at some points, but not at others.  Wouldn't the Numenorian rulers want to send her away as soon as possible back to Middle Earth?  

If I missed the first two episodes, I might not be able to tell who was a human and who was an elf.  Galadriel dug into human food the way any person would.  You wouldn't be able to tell she was older and had more wisdom since she responded to everyone with impulsive defiance, like she had no control over her anger.  The other elf soldier guys didn't act much differently than human prisoners, and it took me a scene or two to recognize that Arondir's friend from Episode 1 was there.

Edited by Camera One
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It's getting really annoying how often the show uses obscured items/faces to drive cliffhangers. What does the Dwarf king have in the box? Who is looking down on Galadriel while silhouetted by the sun? What's the deal with the Numenor queen's dad? Why didn't they clean off the damn lens before shooting the arrival of Aldar?

The show is gorgeous but so slow. 

Spoiler

The preview indicates that some momentum might be building next week. I sure hope so.

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7 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

So, on the one hand from the elder's eulogy speech "left behind" means harfoots getting seriously injured and cannot continue to go on. But on the other hand, we have Nori's family, who can go on, but were forced to be at the back of the caravan, presumably, with no protection from the outer-wilds. What I want to say is... what the f...? Anyways, I'm just counting down the episodes until the "giant" heals Nori's father leg wound. Was surprised it was not this episode.

I thought it was bizarre that their remembrance chant was "we wait for you" when (at least in the case of Nori's family) they quite literally...don't. 

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

...The other elf soldier guys didn't act much differently than human prisoners, and it took me a scene or two to recognize that Arondir's friend from Episode 1 was there.

It took me a while to work out that's who the other captured elfs were too. One of them looked like Galadriel's friend who stood up to her last episode, and I couldn't figure out why he wasn't in the undying lands (?), but then realized he was the guy from Arondir's company. 

I'm not sure I understood who Halbrand is exactly? Seems like he'll likely end up as the head ring wraith someday (Witch King of Angmar, I think?), but I may need to rewatch to get what the deal with his family history is. 

My Tolkien bar is pretty low, so I'm still enjoying this but I wouldn't say I'm riveted. It's enjoyable and interesting enough that I'll stick with it. 

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Some good things in this episode - Numenor looked beautiful. I'm loving Elendil, the Elendil family dynamic, the setup for Isildur, and that quick name drop of Anarion. The bit where Elendil realized that Galadriel had once known Elros.  The bit where we learned about Poppy's family. Galadriel on a horse, largely because that was a beautiful horse.

And then everything else, including, but not limited to:

1. Galadriel saying that her family started the whole war with Morgoth, and just, what?

No.

I realize that this show can't directly use materials from the Silmarillion, but at least in theory they aren't supposed to directly conradict the Silmarillion, either, which is very clear on this: the war started because Morgoth stole the Silmarils and murdered Finwe, Galadriel's grandfather. She was there. Yes, the Noldor then ignored all of the warnings from the Valar and other Elves that going after Morgoth would not go well, but it's not as if they woke up one morning and thought, you know what? Let's start a war. Galadriel can certainly blame herself and her family for continuing the war, but not for starting it.

2. Speaking of that entire conversation, why weren't there any guards near Halbrand's jail cell? Or did Galadriel just kinda....do something to them? 

3. The Harfoots leading a very touching memorial service, followed almost immediately by the Harfoots agreeing to punish an entire family for the actions of just one person. Also, the Harfoots doing the whole "no one is left behind" thing, followed almost immediately by  shots of poor Poppy trying to pull her cart all on her own, after her parents died in a tragic accident. Yikes. Way to almost immediately transform the Harfoots from the sympathetic good guys of the first two episodes to well, this.

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3 hours ago, quarks said:

Galadriel saying that her family started the whole war with Morgoth, and just, what?

The prologue in the first episode insinuated that:

a) Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees (he didn't - Ungoliant did)

b) The elves went to war, sailing to Middle Earth to get revenge.  No mention of Morgoth stealing the Silmarils, the Oath that Feanor and his sons took, the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, Feanor's betrayal resulting in the rest of the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe, etc. None of it.  They just sailed there.

c) It implied that the elves WON the war, and expelled Morgoth themselves.  Yeah that didn't happen at all.

I guess they're avoiding copyright issues by just insinuating a bunch of stuff without stating it outright.  Or Galadriel's narration is just gaslighting.

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I loved it. Love finally seeing Numenor and it didn’t disappoint. Breathtaking!  Loved Imrahil being name checked.  (Woo hoo!  I had the biggest crush on him as a kid.). Loved the music throughout. And if the stranger isn’t Olorin I’ll be shocked. His mannerisms scream Gandalf.

I kept yelling at the tv that Elendil has another son and, lo and behold, Anarion gets a shout out. And so does Elros. 

I missed the Dwarves.

The last trailer showed Halbrand in the jail and looking oh, so much like Aragorn. I’m not sure who Halbrand is related to but he’s not Aragorn’s ancestor. I guess he’s a descendant of my avatar. 😊

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So are we to take from the final scene on Numenor that Miriel was just pretending to be an asshole to the Elves, etc.?  But then why say they both "feared" an Elf showing up?

In the books,

Spoiler

her father Tar-Palantir, did repent from being anti-Elf/anti-Valar and she was described as one of the Faithful.  And of course she never actually got to rule in any form, as her uncle, Pharazon, married her against her will and usurped the throne.

I will be ticked off if the Stranger with the Harfoots turns out to be Gandalf. I don't mind the show making up new things (what else can they do given the limited material they have the rights to!) but I don't like it when they break clear, unambiguous canon.  And Gandalf shows up wayyyy later than this.  I'm hoping against hope that if the Stranger is an Istari at all he's one of the unnamed Blue Wizards who arrived in the Second Age.

As for Arondir and the Orcs, the Orcs must be searching for that Sword of No Good that Arondir's girlfriend's son (maybe Arondir's son?) has, right? For all my complaints about the show I do have to say I liked the whole attempted prison break scene.  Though the warg looked like it had the face of a demented chihuahua.  Would it be too much to make a warg look like a wolf?

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Everything about this show is so amazing except the writing. I'm sticking it out for the scenery and costumes, but I don't know how much longer I'll be able to last. My theory is that eventually I'll have to become invested in the plot because it will have to eventually build off what already happened, but it's not happening yet.

It's all too much, and I don't believe that they couldn't write a simpler, more stripped down plot that let the characters and character conflicts breathe. 

I, too, was disappointed with the Harfoots, which had been the reliable story up until now. But what is the actual Harfoot culture? No one goes off trail and no one walks alone? No one is left behind? Except for anyone who actually needs any help apparently! (Also, where are they migrating from and where are they going?)

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48 minutes ago, mac123x said:

The prologue in the first episode insinuated that:

a) Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees (he didn't - Ungoliant did)

b) The elves went to war, sailing to Middle Earth to get revenge.  No mention of Morgoth stealing the Silmarils, the Oath that Feanor and his sons took, the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, Feanor's betrayal resulting in the rest of the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe, etc. None of it.  They just sailed there.

c) It implied that the elves WON the war, and expelled Morgoth themselves.  Yeah that didn't happen at all.

I guess they're avoiding copyright issues by just insinuating a bunch of stuff without stating it outright.  Or Galadriel's narration is just gaslighting.

Yes, but regardless of whether we're going with what the show insinuated or with what's in the Silmarillion and The Histories of Middle-Earth, the Noldor didn't start any of this. They rebelled against the Valar, sure, and took part in the Kinslaying, also sure, and although Galadriel didn't participate in the Kinslaying (and in a couple of texts actively fought to defend the Teleri), she did rebel against the Valar. But unless Galadriel is trying to claim that Feanor's decision to make the Silmarils in the first place started the war, which feels like a real stretch, I still don't see why she's saying that her family started this.  Morgoth did.

31 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

So are we to take from the final scene on Numenor that Miriel was just pretending to be an asshole to the Elves, etc.?  But then why say they both "feared" an Elf showing up?

It might be partly because:

(minor book spoilers/potential show spoilers)

Spoiler

Most of the time, people in Numenor are just fine with not being allowed to sail to Valinor - until, that is, an elf actually shows up, reminding them that some people are allowed to sail to Valinor, but not others. So just seeing an elf, and especially an elf like Galadriel who was once in Valinor and left, is bound to stir up trouble and resentment. It's also very possible that Miriel and her father know full well that someone in Numenor is making plans to sail to Tol Eressea, and believes - with some reason - that the elves will try to stop any such attempts, and may even inform the Valar that hey, dudes, you've got another rebellion here. 

But also, I think it's at least possible that agents of evil - possibly Sauron, possibly someone else - are already in Numenor spreading rumors that the elves are both super powerful and don't like the people of Numenor, so the arrival of an elf is really bad news. A view that Galadriel's attitude seems to be reinforcing. 

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1 minute ago, Zuleikha said:

Everything about this show is so amazing except the writing. I'm sticking it out for the scenery and costumes, but I don't know how much longer I'll be able to last. My theory is that eventually I'll have to become invested in the plot because it will have to eventually build off what already happened, but it's not happening yet.

I've gotten engaged enough in the plot (though only barely) to see this season out to the end.  I agree with you on the writing.  Bleah city.
 

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I, too, was disappointed with the Harfoots, which had been the reliable story up until now. But what is the actual Harfoot culture? No one goes off trail and no one walks alone? No one is left behind? Except for anyone who actually needs any help apparently! (Also, where are they migrating from and where are they going?)

I assume they are part of the big proto-Hobbit migration from the Misty Mountains/Valley of the Anduin westward to Arnor (where they were named Halflings by the Numenorean descendants there) and then (much later) Bree and (even later) the Shire.

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28 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I assume they are part of the big proto-Hobbit migration from the Misty Mountains/Valley of the Anduin westward to Arnor (where they were named Halflings by the Numenorean descendants there) and then (much later) Bree and (even later) the Shire.

Hold up... it may be a one-time big migration? I thought it was some regular migration that Harfoots have been doing for centuries.

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19 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

Hold up... it may be a one-time big migration? I thought it was some regular migration that Harfoots have been doing for centuries.

One big-time migration, but also one that takes centuries.  No one family/clan goes all that far in their lifetimes, but over the many centuries they pretty much all move from the species's starting point somewhere between the Misty Mountains and Greenwood the Great (much much later renamed Mirkwood when Sauron secretly sets up shop at Dol Goldur and casts an evil shadow on the woods), not crossing the Misty Mountains until around year 1050 of the Third Age, reaching Bree by around 1300 T.A., and then initially settling the Shire in 1601 T.A.  The settling of the Shire is about 1800 years after this show, which (given the presence of characters like Isildur) is set in the final 200 years of the Second Age.

Edited by QuantumMechanic
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I figured the Harfoots/feet were like any migratory culture camping in seasonal locations.  They don't seem tethered to a permanent village.  With no means to defend themselves they move every few months.  (In the first episode they were talking about how the humans they spotted were early.  Apparently they were expecting more humans to be hunting soon so they skedaddled.)  I think this is the rationale for letting the sick and the weak fall behind.  It's brutal and they could certainly come up with a way to share the burden of an injured neighbor, but speed is their only defense.

Elves starting the war?  I guess you could twist Galadriel's words to mean chasing after Morgoth and the Silmarills, but yeah, the Elves didn't start it.  

We don't need to spoiler tag book talk in this thread.

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13 hours ago, Haleth said:

I figured the Harfoots/feet were like any migratory culture camping in seasonal locations. 

That's similar to what I thought. I thought the talk and ritual of the migration meant they were like monarchs or Canadian Geese and migrate in a semi-regular way among locations. I didn't think they were on a generational migration from a starting point to another far away destination.

I don't even understand how that works! How do they know where they're going? 

And if that is what they're doing, why can't the show explain it?

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I got thinking about Galadriel. My interpretation is that she's spent the whole time from the destruction of the trees to the present fighting evil. She never stopped to learn how to person. Or if she knew to start with, she's forgotten. Social skills degrade through disuse, just like other skills. When she needed resources, she harangued people until they provided them, if only to make her go away. That's partly why Gil-Galad is in charge. Sure he may be younger, but he stepped into the actual leader of people role while she continued her war.

Oh, and I don't think there's any racism going on with Elrond, it's just that he's younger and hasn't distinguished himself as much as the seniors. And since they're still alive and in good health, there's no real room for advancement. All that is going to change soon, I'm sure he'll earn and receive more respect.

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On 9/9/2022 at 3:57 PM, Jenniferbug said:

I'm not sure I understood who Halbrand is exactly? Seems like he'll likely end up as the head ring wraith someday (Witch King of Angmar, I think?), but I may need to rewatch to get what the deal with his family history is. 

He's the Aragorn of the Southlands, except that his ancestors allied themselves with Morgoth.  

On 9/9/2022 at 10:43 AM, Camera One said:

Can most Numenorians tell that Galadriel is an elf even when she covers up her ears?  It seemed so at some points, but not at others.  Wouldn't the Numenorian rulers want to send her away as soon as possible back to Middle Earth?  

They probably should, since she's supposed to be supernaturally beautiful and all that, but who knows.  If it really is just the ears then she needs to be like Spock and find some sort of headgear to cover up.

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11 hours ago, Anduin said:

I got thinking about Galadriel. My interpretation is that she's spent the whole time from the destruction of the trees to the present fighting evil. She never stopped to learn how to person. Or if she knew to start with, she's forgotten. Social skills degrade through disuse, just like other skills. When she needed resources, she harangued people until they provided them, if only to make her go away. That's partly why Gil-Galad is in charge. Sure he may be younger, but he stepped into the actual leader of people role while she continued her war.

Oh, and I don't think there's any racism going on with Elrond, it's just that he's younger and hasn't distinguished himself as much as the seniors. And since they're still alive and in good health, there's no real room for advancement. All that is going to change soon, I'm sure he'll earn and receive more respect.

There was the weird but admittedly minor moment in the first episode where some random elves were all YOU AREN'T AN ELF LORD SO YOU CAN'T JOIN US to Elrond - I found it weird mostly because in the books, Elrond is very definitely an elf lord, and even in the show he seems to be important enough to be included in a painting on Numenor. But you are correct about the age thing - I hadn't taken that into consideration. Plus, minor moment. So probably just part of some upcoming character development. 

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On 9/9/2022 at 5:08 PM, quarks said:

1. Galadriel saying that her family started the whole war with Morgoth, and just, what?

No.

I realize that this show can't directly use materials from the Silmarillion, but at least in theory they aren't supposed to directly conradict the Silmarillion, either, which is very clear on this: the war started because Morgoth stole the Silmarils and murdered Finwe, Galadriel's grandfather. She was there. Yes, the Noldor then ignored all of the warnings from the Valar and other Elves that going after Morgoth would not go well, but it's not as if they woke up one morning and thought, you know what? Let's start a war. Galadriel can certainly blame herself and her family for continuing the war, but not for starting it.

This is just semantics to me. Yes, Morgoth started the whole thing, but it was pigheaded Feanor who escalated it to a level where frankly, it did not need to go. If someone said Feanor started the war, I wouldn't side-eye it.

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2. Speaking of that entire conversation, why weren't there any guards near Halbrand's jail cell? Or did Galadriel just kinda....do something to them? 

Why would there need to be a guard right next to his cell?

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3. The Harfoots leading a very touching memorial service, followed almost immediately by the Harfoots agreeing to punish an entire family for the actions of just one person. Also, the Harfoots doing the whole "no one is left behind" thing, followed almost immediately by  shots of poor Poppy trying to pull her cart all on her own, after her parents died in a tragic accident. Yikes. Way to almost immediately transform the Harfoots from the sympathetic good guys of the first two episodes to well, this.

Not sure the Harfoots were ever portrayed as purely sympathetic. It's clear that they let their fear blind and limit them to all the other things they can be doing.

On 9/9/2022 at 8:31 PM, mac123x said:

The prologue in the first episode insinuated that:

a) Morgoth destroyed the Two Trees (he didn't - Ungoliant did)

Ungoliant was working for Morgoth, so...

Quote

b) The elves went to war, sailing to Middle Earth to get revenge.  No mention of Morgoth stealing the Silmarils, the Oath that Feanor and his sons took, the Kinslaying at Aqualonde, Feanor's betrayal resulting in the rest of the Noldor crossing the Helcaraxe, etc. None of it.  They just sailed there.

Clearly Silmarrion stuff they can't use.

Quote

I guess they're avoiding copyright issues by just insinuating a bunch of stuff without stating it outright.  Or Galadriel's narration is just gaslighting.

Never thought of it this way before, but after everything she and her family have been through, wouldn't surprise if they're basically gaslighting themselves just to stay sane.

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I liked this episode more than the first two. Galadriel continues to bug though. I wish she would dial back the CW teen mean girl act and start acting like the elf she is supposed to be.

I loved Numenor - so beautiful! And the wall hanging that had a picture of Elrond! I am willing to wait to see where it goes with Halbrand. He gives off Aragorn vibes to me, but everyone seems to think he's evil. I will say he is very pretty to look at ;-p

I couldn't understand what was happening at the beginning of the episode, but I loved the Isildur reveal. Even a casual viewer/reader like me knows that name!

Regarding the Harfoots, I think Nori's family were not going to initially be in the back - Nori's father says early in the episode that they will be put in the front. I think they were put in the back because they are being punished for Nori's behavior. I don't think the others whose names were being read were left behind on purpose, but because of accidents that befell them. I do think it was mean that nobody helped Nori's friend though.

I loved they Orc scenes with the Elf insurrection. Sucks that they weren't successful, but Arondir has to be getting out, right? I wish we got a clear shot of Adar before the end - kind of lame to name the episode after him and just give a shadow in the last 5 seconds.....

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22 hours ago, quarks said:

There was the weird but admittedly minor moment in the first episode where some random elves were all YOU AREN'T AN ELF LORD SO YOU CAN'T JOIN US to Elrond - I found it weird mostly because in the books, Elrond is very definitely an elf lord, and even in the show he seems to be important enough to be included in a painting on Numenor. But you are correct about the age thing - I hadn't taken that into consideration. Plus, minor moment. So probably just part of some upcoming character development. 

I think that was Elros in the painting, not Elrond - at least that was what I would have thought since Elros was the beginning of the line that eventually gave us Isildur and Aragorn.

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On 9/11/2022 at 2:56 AM, Zuleikha said:

That's similar to what I thought. I thought the talk and ritual of the migration meant they were like monarchs or Canadian Geese and migrate in a semi-regular way among locations. I didn't think they were on a generational migration from a starting point to another far away destination.

I don't even understand how that works! How do they know where they're going? 

And if that is what they're doing, why can't the show explain it?

I'd guess it's probably both - if they were just going West every time they migrate, they wouldn't take hundreds of years to reach the Shire. They probably have a couple of spots they regularly migrate to, and every couple dozen years or so one of those spots just doesn't work for them any more (natural disaster, somebody else has settled nearby, predator has set up shop etc.), so they settle on another spot a bit further West, which shifts their entire migration process just a tiny bit and eventually, after several generations, they end up in a completely different area.

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1 hour ago, Eliza422 said:

I think that was Elros in the painting, not Elrond - at least that was what I would have thought since Elros was the beginning of the line that eventually gave us Isildur and Aragorn.

I think it was both brothers. 

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2 hours ago, Eliza422 said:

I think that was Elros in the painting, not Elrond - at least that was what I would have thought since Elros was the beginning of the line that eventually gave us Isildur and Aragorn.

They were both in the painting. Elros was on the left side, standing with the men, and Elrond - recognizably the actor playing Elrond in this show - standing with the Elves. I assumed it was a picture of their farewell scene, and maybe meant to depict the last time they saw each other?

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2 hours ago, quarks said:

They were both in the painting. Elros was on the left side, standing with the men, and Elrond - recognizably the actor playing Elrond in this show - standing with the Elves. I assumed it was a picture of their farewell scene, and maybe meant to depict the last time they saw each other?

And of course in Tolkien's cosmology it really would have been the last time they'd see each other. until the end of the entire world/universe. (Unlike the Elves whose spirits immediately go to Valinor on "death" and then get resurrected after a relatively short time.)

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Isildur is the one that later defeats Sauron, right? Is the series supposed to get to that, do they have rights for stories from that war?

Who is the guy with Galadriel supposed to be? My one complain (this goes to the main LOTR as well) might be that there's not enough characters that are just regular people, almost everyone is some kind of royalty, leader, secret king, etc.

On 9/10/2022 at 12:08 AM, quarks said:

3. The Harfoots leading a very touching memorial service, followed almost immediately by the Harfoots agreeing to punish an entire family for the actions of just one person. Also, the Harfoots doing the whole "no one is left behind" thing, followed almost immediately by  shots of poor Poppy trying to pull her cart all on her own, after her parents died in a tragic accident. Yikes. Way to almost immediately transform the Harfoots from the sympathetic good guys of the first two episodes to well, this.

I agree, that was weird.

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14 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

Who is the guy with Galadriel supposed to be? My one complain (this goes to the main LOTR as well) might be that there's not enough characters that are just regular people, almost everyone is some kind of royalty, leader, secret king, etc.

He's Halbrand, apparently some sort of human king from a southern kingdom who has gone into exile.

I don't know if he's an original character created for this show, or if he's supposed to be one of the first kings of Rohan, or if he's going to end up as one of the Nazgul, or as some other minor character from the Appendices.

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4 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Isildur is the one that later defeats Sauron, right? Is the series supposed to get to that, do they have rights for stories from that war?

Gil-galad and Elendil (Isildur's father) together take Sauron on mano-a-mano and defeat him at the cost of both their lives.  Isildur then hews the Ring from the hand of the fallen Sauron using the hilt-shard of Elendil's broken sword.  

This is mentioned in the text of The Lord of the Rings ("The Council of Elrond" and I think also in the appendices) so they should have the rights to it in that regard.  Though I don't know if they have the rights to show it since the scene already appeared in Jackson's movies.

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