S06.E13: Saul Gone

[millennium]

I have no interest in a future character-based series.  The Breaking Bad universe movie or mini-series I want to see is a meta documentary-style Dateline/true crime pastiche examining the story of Walter White, treating Heisenberg, Jesse, Saul, Fring, etc. as if they had been actual people and visiting sites associated with the story, interviews with law enforcement, interviews with survivors (Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr., grown up Holly, etc. -- maybe even a prison interview with Saul), a discussion of theories regarding elements of the case that might still be unknown to "the public" (how was Madrigal executive Lydia Rodarte-Quayle poisoned with ricin, for example?  Where is Jesse Pinkman?), the connection to Don Eladio's cartel and the larger war on drugs at the border, Gus Fring's mysterious past, specifics about Gray Matter and Walter's role in it -- what did he create, exactly?  How did Elliot and Gretchen freeze him out?  Speculation about Drew Sharpe ... Who was it that found Mike's body by the river? ... Did anyone ever figure out it was Walter and Jesse with the magnet at the police station?   And so on.

It would be a great opportunity to expand on parts of the story that were left vague or unanswered.   I'm sure some would contend that those story elements were intended to go unexplained but I love details and would find such an approach to the series fascinating.

Edited August 18, 2022 by millennium

[ShadowFacts]

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

And the series could've presented that as a pointless tragedy, but it conspicuously didn't. While everyone else is analogized to a little girl building doomed marble towers that climb too high, Nacho's death nourishes a flower that grows tall and beautiful in the desert rain. His actions are shown to be not futile but successful: the only thing he could do for his father ends up saving his father. Because he accepts the violent end he deserves, Manuel doesn't have to face the violent end he doesn't.

That is a poetic take that I just don't feel. Does he deserve a violent end? Maybe. He did choose to try to end his Salamanca association by thinking his medication trick would kill Hector, so maybe an eye for an eye in the cartel world. I don't accept that Nacho could know his father would be safe. He couldn't. In fact, we don't, since Nacho didn't exist in BB.  Hector went crazy desecrating Nacho's body, who's to say he didn't continue at some point in the future to torment Mr. Varga or worse. Mike had no authority over what Salamancas did, I think his reassurance to Nacho about that was for him to maybe die a little less hellishly.  Nacho was caught, he was either going to be tortured and killed, or kill himself first, he did not have a choice to accept or not accept his violent end. I see no peace there.

6 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

THIS. Jesse shot someone in the head, FFS. he doesn’t deserve to be free.

As much as Jesse did suffer under the neo Nazis, and gave a confession to the DEA, and anguished over Drew Sharpe and other children, I can't get past that he shot Gale. That was awful.

[wendyg]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:16 AM, Spartan Girl said:

“Oh, please get him.” Delivered with such perfect venom. Love you, Carol Burnett.

No one else could have said that with the same depth and richness. An Emmy for Carol Burnett, please!

[nodorothyparker]

I've accepted that even with the purely sentimental attachment I may have to the early seasons Jimmy we were introduced to, I don't necessarily have to love that Jimmy/Saul will die in prison to feel like it makes sense storywise. It feels true to the character he became across both series and not something out of left field because they were wrapping up and they had to do something. That's pretty much my big ask of a series or franchise in the end. From that standpoint, the series more than succeeded.

Someone elsewhere made the point that what is essentially a life sentence may actually come as something of a relief to Jimmy. That doesn't mean he's all yay, I get to die in prison as much as this way he knows who he is and that any damage he could possibly do from here on out will at least be contained and to people who are presumably there because they're criminals too and not innocents who got in the way or just happened to wander into the wrong place at the wrong time. Seven years in club fed with regular ice cream deliveries certainly was a sweet deal and proof of Saul's legal prowess even backed against a wall, but say he served the full seven years. Then what? Now he's basically an even older sadder Gene again, only this time a convicted felon who will likely have considerable parole/probation limits on him. And he still hasn't made good with Kim, so there's no chance of any further contact where they're on at least okay terms. He hated being Gene. It was soul deadening for him. And while I still don't love how abbreviated his time in Omaha actually was for what we saw, it does work for that shorter time frame as proof positive to him that he can't stay out of trouble or resist the con on his own for very long. While I think it's impossible to really know if he still would have gone full steam ahead with that gutwrenching confession if Kim hadn't been there to visually remind him of who he is, although part of me thinks that big unburdening might have happened anyway, you do have to think he had considered this. 

[PeterPirate]

After reading comments and watching a few review videos, I have adjusted my interpretation a little.  I think Jimmy accepted who he was, he accepted he had to stay in prison, and he accepted he had to be separated from Kim.  The reason he changed his allocution was to show Kim he was Jimmy and not Saul.  But it was not his intention to increase his prison time to keep them apart.    

8 hours ago, millennium said:

I have no interest in a future character-based series.  The Breaking Bad universe movie or mini-series I want to see is a meta documentary-style Dateline/true crime pastiche examining the story of Walter White, treating Heisenberg, Jesse, Saul, Fring, etc. as if they had been actual people and visiting sites associated with the story, interviews with law enforcement, interviews with survivors (Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr., grown up Holly, etc. -- maybe even a prison interview with Saul), a discussion of theories regarding elements of the case that might still be unknown to "the public" (how was Madrigal executive Lydia Rodarte-Quayle poisoned with ricin, for example?  Where is Jesse Pinkman?), the connection to Don Eladio's cartel and the larger war on drugs at the border, Gus Fring's mysterious past, specifics about Gray Matter and Walter's role in it -- what did he create, exactly?  How did Elliot and Gretchen freeze him out?  Speculation about Drew Sharpe ... Who was it that found Mike's body by the river? ... Did anyone ever figure out it was Walter and Jesse with the magnet at the police station?   And so on.

It would be a great opportunity to expand on parts of the story that were left vague or unanswered.   I'm sure some would contend that those story elements were intended to go unexplained but I love details and would find such an approach to the series fascinating.

Well, I still like my idea of putting Kim Wexler into a show about lawyers.  It wouldn't even have to be a Gilligan product.  LA Law was an absolutely wonderful series.  Kim could be one member of an ensemble.  She would be well-known to the audience as someone with top-notch legal skills and a dark past, but who has started a new life.  

Edited August 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[MrWhyt]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

Who was it that found Mike's body by the river?

Mike ended up in a barrel of acid like Drew Sharp.

[Eulipian 5k]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

The Breaking Bad universe movie or mini-series I want to see is a meta documentary-style Dateline/true crime pastiche examining the story of Walter White, treating Heisenberg, Jesse, Saul, Fring, etc. as if they had been actual people and visiting sites associated with the story, interviews with law enforcement, interviews with survivors (Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr., grown up Holly,

It would surprise me if some enterprising "fan" hasn't put together a "tour" of the Sites of BrBa/BCS in Albuquerque. That was done for the Sopranos in NJ, and GOT in Britain, et al. They built a Pollos Hermanos in NYC one year. Just don't overcrowd the Cinnabons in Omaha🙂.

[Adiba]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

After reading comments and watching a few review videos, I have adjusted my interpretation a little.  I think Jimmy accepted who he was, he accepted he had to stay in prison, and he accepted he had to be separated from Kim.  The reason he changed his allocution was to show Kim he was Jimmy and not Saul.  But it was not his intention to increase his prison time to keep them apart.    

Well, I still like my idea of putting Kim Wexler into a show about lawyers.  It wouldn't even have to be a Gilligan product.  LA Law was an absolutely wonderful series.  Kim could be one member of an ensemble.  She would be well-known to the audience as someone with top-notch legal skills and a dark past, but who has started a new life.  

I mostly agree here, but I think Jimmy wanted to show Kim that Jimmy was still alive inside of the other parts of him, because part of Jimmy is Saul, is Gene.

As viewers saw in the finale during the bus ride to prison, Jimmy smirked a little when the other prisoners were chanting "better call Saul!" I speculate that Jimmy will be a jailhouse lawyer, possibly helping some dangerous criminals on their appeals. He'll likely be figuring out ways to get more privileges, goods, etc. in prison. Who knows if during the rest of his life, Jimmy won't slide back into more Saul-like behavior? 

I have no doubt that a spin-off with Kim Wexler as a lawyer would be a decent show, but I probably wouldn't watch it. I've never watched El Camino, either. I had to be convinced to watch BCS by friends (I'm glad I was). The endings of BB and BCS were satisfying, if not exactly the way I may have exactly preferred them to end.

I do wish BCS had an ending song, though--perhaps another Badfinger song such as, "No Matter What."

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

Mike ended up in a barrel of acid like Drew Sharp.

I missed that detail when watching BB.  I found from a quick peruse of the BB/BCS Wiki that Mike's body was disposed of in the opener to episode 508. 

At Vamonos Pest, Walt is observing a fly when Todd informs him that he has disposed of Mike's car. The two open Walt's trunk, where Mike's body is being kept. As they prepare to dissolve the body in acid, Jesse enters and asks if Mike got the money and escaped. Walt avoids giving a direct answer, saying only that he is "gone." Jesse suggests a vote to decide what happens with Mike's men, but Walt tells Jesse that, having quit, he no longer has a vote and Walt will handle them himself. He ushers Jesse out of the garage with a stern glare. The door descends between them.  

That part about the fly is particularly noteworthy.  History doesn't repeat itself but it does tend to rhyme. 

[LiterateDog]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

I have no interest in a future character-based series.  The Breaking Bad universe movie or mini-series I want to see is a meta documentary-style Dateline/true crime pastiche examining the story of Walter White, treating Heisenberg, Jesse, Saul, Fring, etc. as if they had been actual people and visiting sites associated with the story, interviews with law enforcement, interviews with survivors (Skylar, Marie, Walt Jr., grown up Holly, etc. -- maybe even a prison interview with Saul), a discussion of theories regarding elements of the case that might still be unknown to "the public" (how was Madrigal executive Lydia Rodarte-Quayle poisoned with ricin, for example?  Where is Jesse Pinkman?), the connection to Don Eladio's cartel and the larger war on drugs at the border, Gus Fring's mysterious past, specifics about Gray Matter and Walter's role in it -- what did he create, exactly?  How did Elliot and Gretchen freeze him out?  Speculation about Drew Sharpe ... Who was it that found Mike's body by the river? ... Did anyone ever figure out it was Walter and Jesse with the magnet at the police station?   And so on.

It would be a great opportunity to expand on parts of the story that were left vague or unanswered.   I'm sure some would contend that those story elements were intended to go unexplained but I love details and would find such an approach to the series fascinating.

I could happily have another character-based series, BUT, I *love* this idea, Millennium. I'd eat that show up with a spoon!

[SimplexFish]

20 hours ago, Starchild said:

I like to think of Jimmy's parting finger guns as him saying "don't worry about me, I'll be alright."

Episode 5/10 the season finale, after Kim came up with the plan to run the scheme on Howard, she did the double finger gun gesture to Saul, right down to blowing away the smoke. He was referencing back to her..

[anoninrva]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:00 AM, stewedsquash said:

I thought I was the only one who noticed that. What I first thought when Saul called in to work was he was somehow going to be able to get in touch with the vacuum cleaner disappear-er guy right under the noses of those listening in on the call. 

It's a bit late for the Vacuum Relocation Protection there, isn't it?  I don't think there's ever been any indication he would break anyone out of protective custody.  It's more to avoid getting processed or murdered. 

11 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Episode 5/10 the season finale, after Kim came up with the plan to run the scheme on Howard, she did the double finger gun gesture to Saul, right down to blowing away the smoke. He was referencing back to her..

I saw that on some youtube commentary - there was one other finale in season 4 that ended with finger guns.  I'm still wondering if that's a reference to a classic movie, though.

[gallimaufry]

Although his sentence suggests that he will die in prison, it's by no means certain - I noticed Peter Gould made some comment to the effect that he thought it's unlikely Jimmy wouldn't find some way to reduce that sentence.

For one thing, pinning on him the deaths of Gomez and Schrader - which seem to be a huge part of the prosecution's case - seems a real reach since not only was he nowhere remotely close but he also scrammed immediately so he can hardly have been said to be involved after the fact.  I guess he obstructed justice by not staying to give the names and identities of Uncle Jack's gang but he did have legitimate grounds to fear for his life there.  The nature of his confession suggests that he was conceding those on, I guess, moral grounds and so I assume 86 years reflects culpability but I have to think on a more rigorous appeal that would be overturned at least.

I can imagine if they do a Kim spin-off sometime in the 2030s and give it a contemporary setting then they could have Jimmy approaching the end of a 20-30 year sentence.  Granted, I'm sure this would be some dramatic licence in view of the scale of his crimes, but it's a concession I'd personally be happy to see.  This would still put him in his 70s by the time he's released but allows a window of hope and still give the sense that he had paid his debt.

[SimplexFish]

30 minutes ago, anoninrva said:

I saw that on some youtube commentary - there was one other finale in season 4 that ended with finger guns.  I'm still wondering if that's a reference to a classic movie, though.

I thought there was at least one other as well... almost like all the jazz hands

Edited August 18, 2022 by SimplexFish

[BC4ME]

Well, since this is 2010 or early 2011, Jimmy would likely be released in 2020 or so because of covid. I think I bunch of non violent criminals got early release. How's that for the future argument? 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I speculate that Jimmy will be a jailhouse lawyer, possibly helping some dangerous criminals on their appeals. He'll likely be figuring out ways to get more privileges, goods, etc. in prison. Who knows if during the rest of h

And there’s absolutely nothings wrong with this. Dangerous criminals with money can (and often do) hire multiple lawyers to defend them. 3, 4, 5, 6 lawyers if necessary (look at history to back this up). Poor criminals? Get one public defender, many times right out of law school and inexperienced and overwhelmed. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Cinnabon

[bad things are bad]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I do wish BCS had an ending song, though--perhaps another Badfinger song such as, "No Matter What."

Perhaps instead of The Monkees  "Going Down", they could have used Jeff Beck's "Going Down" 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

I missed that detail when watching BB.  I found from a quick peruse of the BB/BCS Wiki that Mike's body was disposed of in the opener to episode 508. 

At Vamonos Pest, Walt is observing a fly when Todd informs him that he has disposed of Mike's car. The two open Walt's trunk, where Mike's body is being kept. As they prepare to dissolve the body in acid, Jesse enters and asks if Mike got the money and escaped. Walt avoids giving a direct answer, saying only that he is "gone." Jesse suggests a vote to decide what happens with Mike's men, but Walt tells Jesse that, having quit, he no longer has a vote and Walt will handle them himself. He ushers Jesse out of the garage with a stern glare. The door descends between them.  

That part about the fly is particularly noteworthy.  History doesn't repeat itself but it does tend to rhyme. 

Wow, I never caught that part, either! It’s sad, but I can’t say he didn’t deserve it. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

It would surprise me if some enterprising "fan" hasn't put together a "tour" of the Sites of BrBa/BCS in Albuquerque. That was done for the Sopranos in NJ, and GOT in Britain, et al. They built a Pollos Hermanos in NYC one year. Just don't overcrowd the Cinnabons in Omaha🙂.

They have. I believe, in fact, that they used something from a tour to recreate the Crystal Ship.

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

As viewers saw in the finale during the bus ride to prison, Jimmy smirked a little when the other prisoners were chanting "better call Saul!" I speculate that Jimmy will be a jailhouse lawyer, possibly helping some dangerous criminals on their appeals. He'll likely be figuring out ways to get more privileges, goods, etc. in prison. Who knows if during the rest of his life, Jimmy won't slide back into more Saul-like behavior? 

Which is a good thing! As even Chuck says, everyone deserves good legal representation. Jimmy could also be helping innocent people. Connecting defense attorneys with helping dangerous criminals stay out of jail was not always the case--Perry Mason used to be the hero! Copaganda is the default now.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I have no doubt that a spin-off with Kim Wexler as a lawyer would be a decent show, but I probably wouldn't watch it. 

Actually, my idea is to have Kim as a paralegal in the show.  

Normally I don't nitpick at other peoples' posts, but in this case I'll be claiming residuals someday, so precision is required.  

17 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Wow, I never caught that part, either! It’s sad, but I can’t say he didn’t deserve it. 

Yeah.  The only episode of BB that I watched on TV was the previous one where Walt killed Mike.  Until now I thought his body was still lying there, pushing up bluebells.  

[wendyg]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:58 AM, aghst said:

OK, even if Jimmy wanted to do good and make good with Kim, I don't see him leaning into 86 years.

I don't see it as wanting to make good with Kim. I think he'd told himself that the only two choices in life (as the scammer told him as a child) was to be a wolf or be a sheep. He refused to be a sheep. When he challenged Kim to do what she was telling him to do - turn herself in and take the consequences - he thought she'd never do it, and his lack of faith in humanity would be justified. But then she *did* confess. So a third imaginable path opened up for him, too.

[wendyg]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:37 AM, sistermagpie said:

And I would need too long for them to convince themselves Jeffy's mom wasn't confused.

I thought it was clear that Marion was talking to the Lifeline care team who knew he and how mentally capable she wasr; she told them to call the police and said she was OK, gave them the license plate number. I don't see why the police wouldn't take the intermediary's word for it.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

I thought there was at least one other as well... almost like all the jazz hands

Didn't Jimmy do (smokeless) finger guns when he told kim about his name change? He did it first, I'm pretty sure.

It occurs to me that one of the blessings of this ending with Jimmy doing a life sentence is that, should the team ever decide they want to do a new show, they could come back to it at anytime. It could be set in present day, any of the still living characters could come and go, and there is so much story and character potential in a series with someone like Jimmy in prison. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

When I recently watched some highlight episodes from the earlier seasons, one of the ones I watched was "Lantern." We remember it mostly as the one with Chuck's tragic exit, but it's also the one after Kim's car accident.

In retrospect, I thought it was significant that when they were discussing the accident, she said, "I could have killed someone, Jimmy," What is his reply? "Yeah, yourself!" She then says she crossed three lanes of traffic and doesn't remember any of it. He starts talking about how she was taking on too much because of him (at this point he's been suspended for a year and cannot carry his share of the financial load), but he's got a plan to fix things. Kim: "You didn't make me get in that car. This was all me. I'm an adult. I made a choice." 

That isn't to say Kim's a superior being and Jimmy's a terrible person. Clearly, it's more complicated than that. But the writing even this far back had Kim as the one to think more beyond the concerns of the two of them, the (sometimes bad) choices Kim makes weighing heavily on her, and Jimmy saying exonerating things in an attempt to preserve the status quo. That conversation about the accident is practically a dry run for his trying to talk her out of quitting the law and trying to salvage their relationship in "Fun and Games." 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[Sailorgirl26]

I posted this in spec without spoilers but thought it relevant here as this is the episode with the plea deal. 

For those saying Jimmy's seven-year plea deal was unrealistic, I point you to today's headlines -- not mentioning details because that would make it political, but a defendant pleaded guilty to FIFTEEN felonies and the prison term part of the deal is five months.

There are other conditions that if not met would put the guilty party in prison for a longer term which I imagine would likely have been part of Jimmy's agreement as well. 

The point: short prison terms for significant and multiple felonies are real. 

[Starchild]

As long as you can help them land a bigger fish

[SnarkAttack]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Although his sentence suggests that he will die in prison, it's by no means certain - I noticed Peter Gould made some comment to the effect that he thought it's unlikely Jimmy wouldn't find some way to reduce that sentence.

For one thing, pinning on him the deaths of Gomez and Schrader - which seem to be a huge part of the prosecution's case - seems a real reach since not only was he nowhere remotely close but he also scrammed immediately so he can hardly have been said to be involved after the fact.  I guess he obstructed justice by not staying to give the names and identities of Uncle Jack's gang but he did have legitimate grounds to fear for his life there.  The nature of his confession suggests that he was conceding those on, I guess, moral grounds and so I assume 86 years reflects culpability but I have to think on a more rigorous appeal that would be overturned at least.

I can imagine if they do a Kim spin-off sometime in the 2030s and give it a contemporary setting then they could have Jimmy approaching the end of a 20-30 year sentence.  Granted, I'm sure this would be some dramatic licence in view of the scale of his crimes, but it's a concession I'd personally be happy to see.  This would still put him in his 70s by the time he's released but allows a window of hope and still give the sense that he had paid his debt.

I think back to the ending of Ocean's Eleven when Brad Pitt picks up George Clooney (in his black tie suit) from prison and Brad says, "I hope you were the groom".  Clooney shoots back, "Ted Nugent called, he wants his shirt back".  I can see Kim picking up Jimmy and the two exchanging quips.  Jimmy will always have something to say!

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

I posted this in spec without spoilers but thought it relevant here as this is the episode with the plea deal. 

For those saying Jimmy's seven-year plea deal was unrealistic, I point you to today's headlines -- not mentioning details because that would make it political, but a defendant pleaded guilty to FIFTEEN felonies and the prison term part of the deal is five months.

There are other conditions that if not met would put the guilty party in prison for a longer term which I imagine would likely have been part of Jimmy's agreement as well. 

The point: short prison terms for significant and multiple felonies are real. 

Sure, it depends on who the defendant is and how much they have to spend on a TEAM of lawyers. Our “justice” system  is blatantly unjust. 

[gallimaufry]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

Sure, it depends on who the defendant is and how much they have to spend on a TEAM of lawyers. Our “justice” system  is blatantly unjust. 

A team of lawyers or one Saul Goodman.  Thinking about it, I wish they'd incorporated some of this into Jimmy's ending.  Having a few minutes of him helping people in prison who clearly needed help with well-meaning advice that is serving justice for the wronged not trying to help people evade it.  I think it's implied but that longing to serve his clients -- something that he was really honest about in his hearing in 409 -- would finally be satisfied with this.  It's also self-evidently something Kim would love and respect although I don't think this is why he'd do it.

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

A team of lawyers or one Saul Goodman.  Thinking about it, I wish they'd incorporated some of this into Jimmy's ending.  Having a few minutes of him helping people in prison who clearly needed help with well-meaning advice that is serving justice for the wronged not trying to help people evade it.  I think it's implied but that longing to serve his clients -- something that he was really honest about in his hearing in 409 -- would finally be satisfied with this.  It's also self-evidently something Kim would love and respect although I don't think this is why he'd do it.

The wealthy do nothing but use their money to try to evade prison. Everyone should have the same opportunity to do so. But I do support him helping other prisoners with their appeals, because as Chuck said, everyone deserves a vigorous defense.  Our system is shameful. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Cinnabon

[ShadowFacts]

10 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

I posted this in spec without spoilers but thought it relevant here as this is the episode with the plea deal. 

For those saying Jimmy's seven-year plea deal was unrealistic, I point you to today's headlines -- not mentioning details because that would make it political, but a defendant pleaded guilty to FIFTEEN felonies and the prison term part of the deal is five months.

There are other conditions that if not met would put the guilty party in prison for a longer term which I imagine would likely have been part of Jimmy's agreement as well. 

The point: short prison terms for significant and multiple felonies are real. 

I believe non-violent criminals don't belong in prison for long periods of time, other types of justice can protect society as well or better.  Jimmy was different from today's headline-maker by being party to homicide after the fact, wasn't he?  Also, I do believe Jimmy, if he had been tried at the state level in Nebraska and he either came clean on his own or was implicated by Jeffy or Buddy, deserved prison time for that kind of offense--drugging people is pretty heinous.  But there is no question, disparate sentencing is one of the worst parts of our justice system.

[PeterPirate]

Here is the Serbian Gals' (that's what I call them) reaction video.  

Yes, it is two hours long.  But it is worth listening to.  First they talk about the previous episodes and their predictions for the felina, which turn out to be very accurate.  Then they watch the episode.  And then they talk about what happened.  What makes them worth listening to is their intelligence.  They prattle on and on without notes. 

That said, the most entertaining part is when they start crying.  For those who want to skip to that, the waterworks start at the 50-minute mark.  

[SimplexFish]

50 minutes ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

For those saying Jimmy's seven-year plea deal was unrealistic, I point you to today's headlines -- not mentioning details because that would make it political, but a defendant pleaded guilty to FIFTEEN felonies and the prison term part of the deal is five months.

Apples & Oranges

[gallimaufry]

14 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I believe non-violent criminals don't belong in prison for long periods of time, other types of justice can protect society as well or better.  Jimmy was different from today's headline-maker by being party to homicide after the fact, wasn't he?  Also, I do believe Jimmy, if he had been tried at the state level in Nebraska and he either came clean on his own or was implicated by Jeffy or Buddy, deserved prison time for that kind of offense--drugging people is pretty heinous.  But there is no question, disparate sentencing is one of the worst parts of our justice system.

I think on a completely objective basis, Jimmy deserves to die in prison.  He is literally a career criminal, ran a meth empire, drugged people, had a burglars on call, poisoned a child, worked for the cartel and for Nazis.  I don't really think he should be blamed directly for the deaths of Hank and Gomez but he certainly covered up the deaths of Jane, Howard and Gale.  Jimmy's so likeable and his regret does feel sincere so that it's easy to root for him getting a sentence that doesn't keep him behind bars into his 80s but if he existed in the real world I think life would be a fair judgment.

[SimplexFish]

12 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is the Serbian Gals' (that's what I call them) reaction video.  

Ill take a hard pass on these two girls video LOL, but where is Courtney's finale evaluation?

[PeterPirate]

5 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Ill take a hard pass on these two girls video LOL, but where is Courtney's finale evaluation?

She told me it will drop soon.  Yesterday she dropped a collaboration with another reviewer named Anton Jackson, but I don't watch collabs.

Edited August 19, 2022 by PeterPirate

[pasdetrois]

Thanks to the wretched AMC+ I missed a lot of the episode. Can someone clarify:

When/why were Saul and Walter together in a jail cell, or whatever that room was? Was it an allegory for Hell?

When were Saul and Mike running around in the desert with $7 million? Why was that scene shown in the finale?

I thought the last-cigarette and Saul-disappearing scenes were divine. Gave me the feels.

Edited August 18, 2022 by pasdetrois

[BC4ME]

31 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

She told me it will drop tonight.  Yesterday she dropped a collaboration with another reviewer named Anton Jackson, but I don't watch collabs.

I saw it and didn't think it was worth the time.

[Cinnabon]

59 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is the Serbian Gals' (that's what I call them) reaction video.  

Yes, it is two hours long.  But it is worth listening to.  First they talk about the previous episodes and their predictions for the felina, which turn out to be very accurate.  Then they watch the episode.  And then they talk about what happened.  What makes them worth listening to is their intelligence.  They prattle on and on without notes. 

That said, the most entertaining part is when they start crying.  For those who want to skip to that, the waterworks start at the 50-minute mark.  

You have the patience of a saint!

[Sailorgirl26]

54 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

Thanks to the wretched AMC+ I missed a lot of the episode. Can someone clarify:

When/why were Saul and Walter together in a jail cell, or whatever that room was? Was it an allegory for Hell?

When were Saul and Mike running around in the desert with $7 million? Why was that scene shown in the finale?

I thought the last-cigarette and Saul-disappearing scenes were divine. Gave me the feels.

Saul and Walt were together in a basement toward the end of Breaking Bad while they waited for the Disappearer to make their disappearance arrangements. They spent a few days hiding out in his basement. 

Saul and Mike were the bagmen picking up Lalo Salamanca's $7M cash bail money. The drop went bad and they had to hoof it out. This is how Jimmy's Suzuki Esteem ended up in a ditch in the desert. 

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

A team of lawyers or one Saul Goodman.  Thinking about it, I wish they'd incorporated some of this into Jimmy's ending.  Having a few minutes of him helping people in prison who clearly needed help with well-meaning advice that is serving justice for the wronged not trying to help people evade it.  I think it's implied but that longing to serve his clients -- something that he was really honest about in his hearing in 409 -- would finally be satisfied with this. 

I remember in the scene when Kim was leaving, Jimmy was rattling off a few of her clients and saying, "what about them, they need you." Maybe that was wholly self-serving, since he didn't want her to leave, but it struck me that he really listened to her when she talked about her clients, he stored that stuff in his long-term memory, which we really only do when we care.

Now maybe it was just because he cared about her, but I like to think he also cared about them. There was a part of him that the plight of those clients resonated with. So I think he would genuinely want to help fellow inmates who needed legal advice, especially those he felt were generally good people.

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

I think on a completely objective basis, Jimmy deserves to die in prison.  He is literally a career criminal, ran a meth empire, drugged people, had a burglars on call, poisoned a child, worked for the cartel and for Nazis.  I don't really think he should be blamed directly for the deaths of Hank and Gomez but he certainly covered up the deaths of Jane, Howard and Gale.  Jimmy's so likeable and his regret does feel sincere so that it's easy to root for him getting a sentence that doesn't keep him behind bars into his 80s but if he existed in the real world I think life would be a fair judgment.

The finale was so good that I moved from liking Gene to hating him. But by the end, when Jimmy moved back into his forebrain, I liked him again.

But I'm not convinced that he would not re-offend if he got out. 

[stewedsquash]

5 hours ago, anoninrva said:

It's a bit late for the Vacuum Relocation Protection there, isn't it?  I don't think there's ever been any indication he would break anyone out of protective custody.  It's more to avoid getting processed or murdered. 

I was going by him, while in the dumpster, looking at the card and memorizing the code to ask to the repair shop guy for my thought. And I surely did have it in my mind that somehow vacuum guy would have a guy who can get someone disappeared from custody, even if briefly. 

[Adiba]

5 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

And there’s absolutely nothings wrong with this. Dangerous criminals with money can (and often do) hire multiple lawyers to defend them. 3, 4, 5, 6 lawyers if necessary (look at history to back this up). Poor criminals? Get one public defender, many times right out of law school and inexperienced and overwhelmed. 

That was not exactly my point, but perhaps I was unclear. I was talking about Jimmy becoming more Saul-like, less ethical— not about him giving free legal advice to inmates that he deemed worthy nor about the real- life inequality of our justice system. Ymmv

[BC4ME]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

The finale was so good that I moved from liking Gene to hating him. But by the end, when Jimmy moved back into his forebrain, I liked him again.

At the risk of drawing ire from the Jimmy is a POS and should die like scum in prison viewers, I felt like the finale was brilliant in part in that it gave us (some of us) a way to like the character again in the end. I really needed that. I'm happy he ended up in prison but also happy at the way they let him have redemption.

The whole reason Bob Odenkirk probably worked so well in that role was because despite the things he did wrong, the character was (to me) likable. The actor just exudes it. It felt wrong to me when he was portrayed in a dark way such as in some of the Gene scenes at the end. 

I thought the ending was beautiful and poetic. 

[BC4ME]

On 8/17/2022 at 1:32 PM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Rhea talked about that in her EW interview.  

"Well, we shot a couple of different iterations —- including ones where she shoots finger guns back at him. It was very small and not animated or with a smile, but still — in the end, Peter decided that it looked too much like they were saying, "Kim is back in the game," and we really didn't want to give that impression. That moment between them, to me, is much more about the acknowledgement of their bond, that is still there, and the part of their relationship that was true. 

"It's very purposely left to interpretation of exactly like you said. Is this him just saying, "Man, we had a great run and it's okay"? Or is it him saying we're still great together. And we could still do something together. We could still legally do something together. [Laughs] I took it to mean that he was saying, "I still believe that we have a relationship." In whatever capacity that is. Even though the finger guns are representative of the beginning of this horrible downfall scam with Hamlin, for me, in the moment — because he does it in a very different way — it felt like, "There is still something great about us. Not everything about what we were together is bad. There's something great about the two of us together." And I took her look to him to be an acknowledgement that it's true, even though she's not ready to say what that means."

Thanks for this. That the actress herself feels it's up in the air gives room for a lot of interpretations.

On 8/17/2022 at 2:48 PM, gallimaufry said:

What's interesting is that this is the third consecutive season to end with the finger guns but before they have always been breaking points testing their relationship.

Yes, and it's the last scene at the end of the last three seasons so I'm having a hard time letting t go without really thinking about it.

At the end of season four, Jimmy shocks Kim after his seemingly genuine speech to get his license back. She fell for it (though granted parts of it may have been true). He then shocks her further by the name change and finishes up with the finger pistols.  

At the end of season five, Kim shocks Jimmy (and us!) by using them after talking about going for Howard. 

So this season's end it's Jimmy's turn to use the finger pistols again. I suppose you could say he shocked her earlier by coming clean. (She didn't return them and the way she looks at him when she leaves is open to interpretation, which is perfect. As much as I wanted her to return them, it wasn't the right choice for the end IMO.) But since this is again the final scene, is there a tie in to the other two seasons I'm missing? I'm just not ready to let the finger pistols go yet without thinking about it some more. 

[BC4ME]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:48 PM, gallimaufry said:

I took it that their bond was built around the scam and so this is how Jimmy expresses his love and affection in a way that cuts through words.  It's also kind of ironic since he's behind bars and has added decades to his sentence in the interest of reforming.  But it seems to acknowledge that spark.

For Kim, it wouldn't be appropriate to respond in that way but you can see in the nuances of Rhea's expressions that she appreciates the message and is heartened by it.  But she can't reciprocate as she's not that person any more.

What I thought was clever by not having her reciprocate is that you wanted her to reciprocate as a romantic gesture and yet it is absolutely right that it doesn't.  And for me, the first time I saw the episode I was still caught up in the moment of thinking she might turn back and reciprocate when I was almost jolted by the cut to black.  I think that was a perfect ending because it's so emblematic of Kim's feelings - Jimmy represents both genuine love and understanding as well as absolute chaos and those finger guns would not bode anything healthy for them.  But Jimmy knows she will walk away and Kim knows she must walk away and so it is both sad but also incredibly romantic.

This is a beautiful take on the last scene. As I read or heard somewhere else, in the end, it was a love story. An epic love story. 

[jnymph]

Now that the finale has sunk in a bit….

I was left unsatisfied with the ending for one reason: no clear reaction from Kim. I just can’t with the subtle, nuanced non-reaction to seeing Jimmy again. 
 

I did love Jimmy’s very clear redemption and that he loved Kim so much he’d spend his life in prison. But damn…. He deserved at least a smile or a frown from her.

eta: I blame the writing, not Seehorn’s acting 

also maybe Jimmy didn’t deserve a reaction, but I believe I did! ;)

Edited August 18, 2022 by jnymph

[aghst]

4 minutes ago, jnymph said:

eta: I blame the writing, not Seehorn’s acting 

Gene was upset with that phone call, when at the end Kim suggested he turn himself in.

So upset he almost messed up that robbery, sticking around too long to smoke the guy's cigars and drink his expensive booze.

Almost murdered the guy to get away and had an impulse to strangle the Carol Burnett character.

So I guess he had an epiphany and even though he tried to escape, he accepted his fate when captured.

Those who praise the ending said Jimmy was accepting his guilt, coming to peace with it.

Yet he was able to negotiate a relatively cushy deal and throw it all away for the chance to see Kim again and get her to like him again.

How many people would choose life in prison, little or no probability of parole, because their ex spouse might respect them more for it?

It would be believable if they sacrificed their lives for a loved one instead.  But the writers were saying life in prison is still better than death?  Because Jimmy wasn't going to be attacked by the other prisoners because of his commercials.

Wasn't he prosecuted by federal prosecutors so he would be in federal prison, maybe not even in New Mexico?

In any event they couldn't do the sacrificing of his life for others thing because they already did that with WW.

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, aghst said:

In any event they couldn't do the sacrificing of his life for others thing because they already did that with WW.

A lot of people were dissatisfied with Walt's ending because his ending fulfilled his self-centered fantasies so much, so it genuinely surprises me to keep hearing him described as sacrificing himself for others. He was gloriously selfish to the end. 

[Dev F]

51 minutes ago, aghst said:

Those who praise the ending said Jimmy was accepting his guilt, coming to peace with it.

Yet he was able to negotiate a relatively cushy deal and throw it all away for the chance to see Kim again and get her to like him again.

I don't understand the "Yet." These things aren't contradictory. The whole reason Jimmy became full-on Saul was to run away from the pain of his breakup with Kim, so sorting out his relationship with her is central to making peace with himself.

What's more, in one of the many interviews he gave following the finale, Peter Gould also pointed out that Jimmy's gambit wasn't necessarily just about making Kim feel better about him or her own decisions—he may have also worried that he wouldn't be able to go through with it if she wasn't there. He didn't just do it for her, some grand romantic gesture without a genuinely moral dimension; their reconciliation was the instrument of his self-acceptance as much as the other way around.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Dev F