S03.E09: Domino

[AnimeMania]

The creation of a powerful new weapon puts the Orville crew - and the entire Union - in a political and ethical quandary.

Original Airdate: July 28, 2022

[Chicago Redshirt]

It's once again frustrating because just little tweaks would have made this pretty decent episode so much better.

The notion of the weapon being one that Charly and Isaac developed together out of the blue was pretty dumb. I hated the whole "four-dimension thinking" BS because it made no sense what it was supposed to mean other than she can do science magic.

That said, It made no sense for there to be only one of these devices and for only Charly and Isaac to know how to operate it. The first thing the Union should have done is mass-produce it in a way that any idiot could operate it. 

Once they had the weapon operational, it seemed like the perfect time to do diplomacy with the Moclans and the Krill separately.  

The notion that they would fly the weapon to the heart of Kaylon territory with the only people who know how to use it, land on Kaylon and have the only people who know how to use the weapon voluntarily leave the ship and go away from the weapon is probably the most nonsensical set of decisions I've seen on a show in recent memory. It would be like if Oppenheimer got in a truck with the bomb and drove it to Germany demanding to talk to Hitler, and then when in Berlin, left the truck behind with the bomb inside it. 

Other than Teleya being someone we recognize, there is literally no reason for her to be personally overseeing the bomb's reverse engineering.

As for Charly, I will give Anne Winters this: her final scene was competently done. I won't miss the character at all, though.

[dbklmt]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As for Charly, I will give Anne Winters this: her final scene was competently done. I won't miss the character at all, though.

Her duet with Scott Grimes was quite good.  She had a beautiful singing voice.  Perhaps her next job could be in musical theatre. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by dbklmt

[dwmarch]

Wow, that was the best episode of 24 I have ever seen. Seriously @Chicago Redshirt, I think if you look at this episode through the lens of it being a futuristic Jack Bauer dammit-there's-not-enough-time race to stop the WMD it makes a lot more sense. Not sure if you have seen that show or not but they did this exact same plot a bunch of times. A WMD getting hijacked, military forces bristling for conflict, a patriotic traitor (that the bad guys execute once they are done with him), a little commando squad going in to secure the weapon, leadership on all sides getting way more involved than they actually would in real life, teaming up with an enemy who turns out to be not so bad after all, a scrappy villain going hand to hand with one of the heroes, the WMD actually going off, the heroic sacrifice of a minor but relatively important character and I am sure a bunch more 24 tropes that I have forgotten about. Be proud Brannon Braga. You finally did it. You finally wrote a great episode of 24.

[Meushell]

@Chicago Redshirt

Your entire post is what I was going to say, but in more detail because I’m lazy. 😂 I will just add that I thought the first battle was a simulation at first. Even before they used the weapon. It just had that feel, and I don’t know why. I also thought they used the time travel to sort of hold them in place until they decayed or something.

Anyway…

Moclans: We will be in charge because you are female.

I’m surprised Teleya didn’t do some of her own cutting after that…or maybe she did.

Why Admiral Perry, why? Alright, I understand why. I see both sides here because hoping for peace isn’t going to make it happen. 

The Kaylon thinking that Ed was joking about the device being stolen was funny. I don’t blame them.

Wow, what a great battle. 

Sorry, but nope, still don’t like Charli. She was becoming tolerable, but that’s the best thing I can say about her. I mean, sacrificing herself entirely for the Kaylons wasn’t even true, despite what the show tries to tell me. Against the Krill/Moclan alliance, the Union was screwed if the Kaylon were killed. Once they were gone, I suspect the Krill would have turned on the Moclans.

[phalange]

As a lot of us suspected, the Krill and Moclans are teaming up, and of course the Moclans wouldn't be happy that a woman is in charge, and the Krill hate everyone who isn't Krill but are willing to work together because of a bigger threat. That was an unexpected twist, having Admiral Perry be the one behind the idea to hand over the weapon to them. I thought at first it was just a group of lower-level Union employees going rogue because they disagreed with the Admirals, but nope. 

This is the first we've seen or heard of the weapon, so I wonder how long Isaac and Charly were working on it.

Those Pteradon fighter jets finally made an appearance. The whole Union/Kaylon vs. Krill/Moclan space battle was really well done.

I like the juxtaposition of the Kaylon reluctantly teaming up with the Union against the Krill and Moclans, just as the Krill reluctantly teamed up with the Union against the Kaylon last season. The Kaylon being a part of the Union will be interesting and hopefully the show gets renewed so we can explore what it'll be like having the Kaylon in Union Counsel meetings and such. And of course the war with the Krill/Moclan alliance isn't over.

Telaya continues to be the absolute worst. Kelly and Talla knocking her out was satisfying.

Didn't think a main character would actually get killed off. I expected there to be a last-minute save. Isaac's speech about Charly was really nice.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Union: Moclans, we are kicking you out because you were willing to torture a girl who had agreed to join a terrorist network against you that was violating a treaty you signed in good faith.

Also Union: Kaylons, we welcome you to the Union despite your having systematically killed billions of your creators, lied about being interested in joining us previously, pledged to eliminate all biological lifeforms in the galaxy, started to make good on that plan, and reconsidered your ways only because we developed a weapon that could potentially exterminate all of you that you currently have no defense to. 

I'm trying to figure out if the anti-Kaylon weapon is no longer a threat. It seems like there would have to be people among the Moclan/Krill alliance who spent enough time with the weapon and must have some idea how to reverse-engineer it, right? I'm not sure if the Moclan weapon specialist would have escaped the destruction of the base or not. 

6 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Wow, that was the best episode of 24 I have ever seen. Seriously @Chicago Redshirt, I think if you look at this episode through the lens of it being a futuristic Jack Bauer dammit-there's-not-enough-time race to stop the WMD it makes a lot more sense. Not sure if you have seen that show or not but they did this exact same plot a bunch of times. A WMD getting hijacked, military forces bristling for conflict, a patriotic traitor (that the bad guys execute once they are done with him), a little commando squad going in to secure the weapon, leadership on all sides getting way more involved than they actually would in real life, teaming up with an enemy who turns out to be not so bad after all, a scrappy villain going hand to hand with one of the heroes, the WMD actually going off, the heroic sacrifice of a minor but relatively important character and I am sure a bunch more 24 tropes that I have forgotten about. Be proud Brannon Braga. You finally did it. You finally wrote a great episode of 24.

Nice connection! It was missing a few "Dammits!," Kiefer's velvet, a useless perimeter being set up and a few Rube Goldberg plots in case the first WMD threat failed, but a pretty good approximation. 

[tv-talk]

I dont understand why the show forced Charly onto viewers so thoroughly. All of a sudden she was a super-genius who instantly blow Lamarr out of the water and is seemingly on par with Isaac in the iq department? Oh but she's a pilot or navigator by training? By the end I was really hoping she would die and when Grayson said "try and get out" actually worried she might survive. Her character was just awful and rarely made any sense.

Also see no reason to trust the Kaylans nor do I understand why they didnt just kill all the most important Union people any chnace they had. I mean they are told only Charly and Isaac can operate the device- so why not instantly annihilate Charly the moment they are in her presence? And really all of Union command?

Why did Ted Danson simply give away the device? Clearly there was an underground of Union folks who wanted to use it. Wouldnt they have just taken it to another location and fired the thing up rather than just giving it away? 

This episode made little sense, was just a vehicle for Charly worship that McFarlane decided the show was going to be about. Are they dating or something?

The story with Topa ended up being done so, so well. Bortus was so emotive, and Klyden, the entire parable of what it was obviously about. Really an excellent piece of work, guess I thought this finale paled in comparison. 

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

This episode made little sense, was just a vehicle for Charly worship that McFarlane decided the show was going to be about. Are they dating or something?

Yes, she's his gf.

[tv-talk]

9 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Yes, she's his gf.

Hahahaha! I honestly had no idea, thx for the info. If there was ever any doubt that first and foremost The Orville was a McFarlane vanity project, there ya go. He's a funny, witty, talented guy but it's pretty pathetic to shoehorn in such an awful character front and center and force her story like that. None of it was believable and then having her do that duet?? And why was it that we see about a dozen Union people die in the attack, all apparently friends of the leads, but the ONLY death that matters at all was hers? Turrible.

This show is about 15% superb, 50% good enough, and 35% cringeworthy.

[paulvdb]

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

The story with Topa ended up being done so, so well. Bortus was so emotive, and Klyden, the entire parable of what it was obviously about. Really an excellent piece of work, guess I thought this finale paled in comparison. 

This wasn't the finale. There's one more episode next week.

[Zaffy]

From the beginning of the season, it was more than obvious  that Charlie would play a significant part in the end of the Kaylons war, probably as a peacemaker. I am glad she is gone, sorry but the actress was not good at all to support this role (or any role) so her character was wasted.

Anyway, this was a good episode, not a great one but it had its moments, top of which were all the times Primary Kaylon was calling the Union  ppl incompetent and rightfully so. It was quite funny . At one point I expected Kaylon to say "you are not worthy to be extinguished, we are moving as far away as possible from you and your stupidity".

Best line of the episode (and one of the series best):  "Kaylon Primary: is this your concept of humor?"

So far the MVP of the season is Kelly.

p.s.
Oh, those humans in their lovely wooden cabin, watching the Northern lights when they are not gathered in front of a fireplace singing altogether folk songs. Ew.  

[tennisgurl]

I never much warmed to Charly, even after she stopped telling Isaac to fuck himself in her every scene, and its hard not to see her presence as Seth McFarlane wanting to give his girlfriend a job, but she did at least have a decent arc and send off. Going from hating the Kaylans to dying to save them, which inspired the Kaylons to give biological life forms a try, isn't a bad idea. I guess that is what her character existed to do? Learn a lesson about not hating Kaylans, then inspire Kaylons to stop hating non Kaylons by dying without having to give that role to a major character? She does have quite a nice voice and her acting did improve at least, pluy Isaacs speech about her was nice. 

I guessed as soon as the Moclans left the Union that they would ally with the Krill, although I don't see that ending well in the long term. Now with them just standing against the Union and the Kaylan, neither of whom are trying to wipe them out, the stakes aren't as high and their differences, the Moclans hating woman and the Krill hating everyone other than them, will probably drive them apart. 

Ironic that last season the Krill and the Union teamed up against the Kaylans, while now the Union has teamed up with the Kaylans against the Krill. It will be interesting to see how the Kaylans fit into the Union going forward, half the crew of the Orville could hardly look at Isaac after what happened, and he turned to the side of good and saved them, I can imagine that even more people will be pissed that the whole species will now be allowed into the Union. On the one hand, its in keeping with their ideals of seeking peace and friendship whenever possible and is also probably the most pragmatic choice, making a deadly enemy a friend is certainly better than having to fight the Kaylans, especially if they team up against the Krill/Moclans. On the other, for as much as they were understandably furious about the Moclans torturing a child, enough to kick them out of the Union, they are certainly quick to forgive the Kaylans and roll out the welcome mat, even after presumably murdering countless children's in their anti life campaign. That should lead to some decently interesting conflicts. 

Charly and Isaac creating some super Kaylan death machine that only they can operate is ridiculous even by science fiction standards, and then letting Admiral Ted Danson (RIP) run off with the weapon does not say much about the Unions security protocols. I guess they wanted it to be more about the ethics than the actual science, whether or not to use this super weapon against a genocidal enemy, themselves committing genocide, it reminds me of a dilemma in the last season of Star Trek: DS9. Not to get into spoilers for that show (that aired years ago, but still) but it was an issue framed in a similar way with a similar situation.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Also see no reason to trust the Kaylans nor do I understand why they didnt just kill all the most important Union people any chnace they had. I mean they are told only Charly and Isaac can operate the device- so why not instantly annihilate Charly the moment they are in her presence? And really all of Union command?

Why did Ted Danson simply give away the device? Clearly there was an underground of Union folks who wanted to use it. Wouldnt they have just taken it to another location and fired the thing up rather than just giving it away? 

This episode made little sense, was just a vehicle for Charly worship that McFarlane decided the show was going to be about. Are they dating or something?

The story with Topa ended up being done so, so well. Bortus was so emotive, and Klyden, the entire parable of what it was obviously about. Really an excellent piece of work, guess I thought this finale paled in comparison. 

Yeah, the Kaylon really have no grounds to call the Union incompetent when they could have ended the threat of this device by killing Charly and Isaac at multiple points.

I do have somewhat of an explanation for why Ted Danson (aka Admiral Perry, now the Orville's first "Badmiral" after a long list of Admirals in Trek who are corrupt, traitorous, short-sighted and/or incompetent!).

Using the quantum core of the Orville, the device was able to nuke all Kaylon within a given radius. To nuke all Kaylon everywhere at once, the device required a much bigger quantum core. It's possible that the Union did not have such a humongous quantum core in the first place. But even assuming that it did, it's reasonable for Admiral Perry to believe that he and anyone loyal to him would run into too many obstacles trying to a) figure out how to use the device without Charly/Isaac's aid b) getting to and/or setting up a Union-based facility with such a huge quantum core c) defending that facility from Union forces while attempting to fire off the device. He may also want to avoid spilling Union blood which almost certainly would have happened if he had set up shop in Union territory.

There's also the plausible deniability aspect if the anti-Kaylon effort backfires. Then they can blame the Krill/Moclans for attempting to do it/have the Kaylon direct their forces at those two powers. 

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Yes, she's his gf.

I am curious if it is known whether the relationship preceded the casting, or if she was casted and then started dating. I'm also curious if, like with the Alara actress, the fact that she was written off the show is a reflection that they have broken up. My Google-Fu on this point is weak and does not seem to answer these questions. Anyone know?

Edited July 28, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[tv-talk]

1 hour ago, paulvdb said:

This wasn't the finale. There's one more episode next week.

I should have known! No way Seth writes his gf off the show. The only question is will Charly come back as some sort of trans-dimensional being a la Q or just her regular self- I vote the former.

[Meushell]

1 hour ago, Zaffy said:

From the beginning of the season, it was more than obvious  that Charlie would play a significant part in the end of the Kaylons war, probably as a peacemaker. I am glad she is gone, sorry but the actress was not good at all to support this role (or any role) so her character was wasted.

I really tried not to blame her acting abilities, but every time she had a bigger role, I felt ugh. When the character died, I mostly just thought, “Yea, she’s gone!” However, there have been other characters in tv, far worse than her, that I have loved to watch and could pity. Heck, I felt sorry for Perry, and that was right right after betrayed his people. When he said he was going to turn himself in, I felt his heart breaking. I can’t help but think that you are right.

32 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I should have known! No way Seth writes his gf off the show. The only question is will Charly come back as some sort of trans-dimensional being a la Q or just her regular self- I vote the former.

I really, really hope not.

[tv-talk]

17 minutes ago, Meushell said:

I really, really hope not.

All depends if they break-up or not. McFarlane was dating the former superhero security woman on the show- they broke up and she was off the show midseason. Poof. Gone. Now he starts dating Ann Winters early in filming Season3, lo and behold her role grows and grows until she is almost the co-star of the show. If they keep dating, you can expect she'll play a huge role in series going forward. If they break-up, she'll be gone in an instant. I hope he starts dating someone who can act well soon.

It's just so, so, SO pathetic on his part when you think about it and drags the show down. I am a sucker for sci-fi though and The Orville comes from a long tradition that McFarlane pays homage too and continues, so of course I'll keep watching. Star Trek SNW is 10x better though.

[thuganomics85]

Man, there is so much alliance changing going on here, you'd think this was Survivor: Sci-fi Edition!   Thanks to all the craziness that happened last episode, not only are the Moclans throwing in with the Krill (and being willing to "look past" the fact that the Krill are currently led by a woman), but it all ends with the Union forming an alliance with the Kaylons of all people!  And they even end up joining at the end!  Certainly didn't have that in my prediction pool.

Wasn't expecting Charly to sacrifice herself like she did.  I figured since she was introduced this season, she at least stick around till the end.  Can't say I ever warmed up to the character, but she did get more tolerable as the show went and Annie Winters did a good enough job in the final moments.  And at least her death was a good way to not only show that she was willing to sacrifice herself for a species she stated out hating, but it even led to the Kaylons reconsidering their whole "Kill all biological beings' mandate and prove that they can grow as well.  And Issac's eulogy was nice.  Again, not exactly torn up here but it was handled about as well as expected.

Damn you, Perry!  Your actions have prevented more Ted Danson awesomeness going forward.  I wish they had more build-up for why he was so willing to betray the Union like he did.  But, honestly, I found it more far-fetched that he didn't predict that Teleya and the Krill would blow them up as soon as he left dock.  There was no way she was going to left him leave her ship alive.  Although, maybe his exist will allow Admiral Ozawa/Kelly Hu to get more scenes, which I would approve of!

They certainly went all out with the space battle.  That Hulu money is being put to good use on that front!

If Teleya remains a prisoner of the Union, I do wonder who will take over the Krill leadership.  Or maybe even the Moclans will try and take advantage of this.

Curious to see what the actual season finale will be since they've already kind of resolved the Kaylon conflict (for now?)

[tv-talk]

16 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

And at least her death was a good way to not only show that she was willing to sacrifice herself for a species she stated out hating

Did she really though? I know that's how they portrayed it in her eulogy, but what she actually said in the moment was simply about doing her duty. She seemed to be showing her complete fealty to and belief in the Union moreso than any particular care for the Kaylans. At least that's how I thought it looked...

[shapeshifter]

Teleya f'in' killed Ted Danson! Not cool!

The only working Kaylon bomb egg was being flown to the Kaylons with the only people able to operate it (this is why I always left behind instructions when I left a job), in order to threaten the Kaylons into surrender. Hmmm. Let me see. What is wrong with this picture? 

I kept thinking "reverse engineering" is what's wrong with this picture until finally Ted Danson said it for me. And then he got wiped off the face of the universe.  

The only rationale for St. Charly to destroy the bomb, herself, and half a planet that makes sense to me if she was really just fed up with everything. And, really, since her last words were to her dead gf, I think she was just suicidal, despite all the later accolades.

Although, actually, the memorial service was very movingly done. Too bad it wasn't for Ted Danson/Admiral Perry.
 

16 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I hated the whole "four-dimension thinking" BS because it made no sense what it was supposed to mean other than she can do science magic.

I floved the potential for them to explain Charly's "four-dimension thinking" ability, but, alas, all we ever got was Charly typing. 

If MacFarlane and Winters are still into continuing their shit show onscreen collaboration, I hope hologram Charly will explain 4-dimensional thinking to us. 

About the format, airing, and length:
Once again, I went swimming 30 minutes into the episode, and paused later to do cleaning and laundry.  
If the show dropped in the early evening, I might watch it uninterrupted. 
IDK. Are we supposed to watch it the following evening after it drops if we don't live on the west coast?
Am I doing this all wrong?

[Meushell]

26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

IDK. Are we supposed to watch it the following evening after it drops if we don't live on the west coast?
Am I doing this all wrong?

You watch it when you want to. You could wait until the whole season drops to watch if you want. 

[The Kings Foot]

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I should have known! No way Seth writes his gf off the show. The only question is will Charly come back as some sort of trans-dimensional being a la Q or just her regular self- I vote the former.

4 hours ago, Meushell said:

I really, really hope not.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

If Teleya remains a prisoner of the Union, I do wonder who will take over the Krill leadership.  Or maybe even the Moclans will try and take advantage of this.

Curious to see what the actual season finale will be since they've already kind of resolved the Kaylon conflict (for now?)

My theory on this is actually that Seth is going to retire his character.   He's pretty much set up Mercer wanting to be a full time Dad and he cant do that if he's a star ship captain.   Seth has already  said he cant handle duties on Orville and on his other projects .  Most people assumed that meant Orville would be going in hiatus.  But I think he might just give Mercer  retirement and let others take over day to day running of the Orville show.

1 hour ago, tv-talk said:

Did she really though? I know that's how they portrayed it in her eulogy, but what she actually said in the moment was simply about doing her duty. She seemed to be showing her complete fealty to and belief in the Union moreso than any particular care for the Kaylans. At least that's how I thought it looked...

Actually at the moment of death she said something about meeting Amanda.  So I view it as suicide in service of ones country. 

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

The only rationale for St. Charly to destroy the bomb, herself, and half a planet that makes sense to me if she was really just fed up with everything. And, really, since her last words were to her dead gf, I think she was just suicidal, despite all the later accolades.

Yup this.

Edited July 28, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Lugal]

Well, I didn't expect them to kill Charlie.  I still feel indifferent, but they gave her a good sendoff.  And it did bring the Kaylon and the Union together.  And I will say Ann Winters has a great singing voice.  Still not sure about what's going to happen going forward, with the Kaylon.

I'm curious how long the Moclan-Krill alliance lasts, when I doubt the Krill women in positions of power will like Moclan demands and the Moclans probably don't want the Krill knocking on their doors every Sunday morning (or whatever Avis's favorite day is).

The space battle was impressive.  I wonder if CGI is getting to the point where's it's more cost efficient to have a bunch of space battles versus building sets and paying actors?

Although looking at events from the Kaylon point of view, I can understand Kaylon Primary's thinking it was a bad joke:

Union: We have a super-weapon that can destroy you so you better make peace!

Union (a few days later): We totally lost the super-weapon that can destroy you and the people have it who are definitely going to use it, please help us get it back!

[kay1864]

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The notion that they would fly the weapon to the heart of Kaylon territory with the only people who know how to use it, land on Kaylon and have the only people who know how to use the weapon voluntarily leave the ship and go away from the weapon is probably the most nonsensical set of decisions I've seen on a show in recent memory.

Not to mention… They couldn’t have had the entire negotiation via video? It’s not like the Kaylon can sense emotions and intent like a Betazoid.

[kay1864]

9 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And why was it that we see about a dozen Union people die in the attack, all apparently friends of the leads, but the ONLY death that matters at all was hers?

Didn’t the Asian fighter pilot die too? He doesn’t get a memorial?

8 hours ago, Zaffy said:

I am glad she is gone, sorry but the actress was not good at all to support this role (or any role) so her character was wasted.

In more ways than one.

(too soon?)

[kay1864]

- Anyone else think at first that the two people stealing the weapon were Kaylon spies?

- I see the Orville still has the rule of “No one uses the shuttle seats except the pilots. Everyone else has to stand dramatically, even older high-ranking Union officials, and even during severe turbulence”

- Charlie: “Shut up and let me work!”

“but I have lots of time to pause and watch Isaac show mercy to a Moclan”

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Didn’t the Asian fighter pilot die too? He doesn’t get a memorial?

I thought we'd never seen him before and don't recall his name, so when we kept getting glimpses of him between shots of Gordon and John, I assumed he was a red shirt whose purpose was to convey that Gordon and John barely survived. 
I don't recall OG Star Trek red shirts ever getting funerals, but I also don't think anyone else did either, because they didn't kill off main characters.
But, yeah, Ed begins the service with:

• We are gathered here in remembrance of a fallen shipmate. One who left us far too soon.

which fits the description of the pilot too.
And they didn't even mention all the others that got vaporized in this episode.

I guess we have to imagine there were other services for the others?

Not the most tightly written episode. The log cabin stuff was like another show.

[greekmom]

Random thoughts in random order.

I liked the fact that Mercer was remorseful in killing all those Kaylon ships and glad he recognized that it is genocide.
Alot of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend." It almost reminds me of Voyager's Scorpion episode.
Admiral Ted Danson, did you think you were going to get off scott free!??!  Well, the bar closed early.
Does Klyden do anything besides being the harpie wife? At least he has mellowed out that much that he still drives Bortus crazy.
Glad Charly is finally finished and she's with Amanda.  Of course McFarlene would give her a hero's exit. 
I don't get why Ed doesn't just go down with a small team to Krill, dressed as Krill and pull his daughter out.  If the poster above is right and he leaves Orville, I wouldn't be sure if I would stick around.  I like the Kelly/Ed team up.  Plus another kid on board would be great.
 

[kay1864]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

I guess we have to imagine there were other services for the others?

I would think after a battle they would recognize everyone who died in one memorial service, and pay tribute to each. 

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The log cabin stuff was like another show.

I had to fast-forward through the folk song, just like I did the last one. I don’t need the Ed Mercer All-Star Variety Hour.

[kay1864]

4 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Does Klyden do anything besides being the harpie wife?

Gotta admit though, he does it well. I did laugh when they were bickering in the first season, “You do not pay attention to me any more”. Arguing but still speaking in the stilted no-contraction Moclan manner 😆

Right up there with “Yes. I would like a corner piece.”

[Chaos Theory]

I actually really liked this episode but I am guessing the Charly Burke haters are going to hate it because of course they will.   I always liked the idea of Isaac and Charly working together despite the fact that Charly never trusted Isaac.    And I loved the idea that they came up with a super weapon because of course they did.  I also really loved the idea that it dealt with The genocide question when it comes to Terminators, The Borg, The Cylons….and now the Kaylons.     And Damn it Ted Danson!   "True to his ethics even as he commits treason."  

All Moclan secret labs look the same.  Probably saved a bit considering how much the rest of the battle scene probably cost.  But I really did like the idea of the Moclan and Krill vs the Union and the Kaylon.    And Kaylon Prime being chastised by first by Charly when Isaac didn't kill the Moclan and later by Isaac on why Charly sacrificed herself.    Heh jus when the Moclans get kicked out the Kaylons get brought in.  

You don't have to like her but this season has been about Charly and her character growth in alot of ways.    And Isaacs speech at the end was really well done.  He didn't understand Charly and I think alot of people don't but her saving Isaac because she could and her sacrificing herself in the end was a great story.   

I think the funniest part of the episode though was still watching Teleya and the Moclan negotiate on the Krill home world.   

[RevBrett]

Although I'm sure there are exceptions, I find the show smarter when it's spoofy (earlier seasons) and stupid when it tries to be smart and serious. Someone above mentioned the strategic blunders of putting the Union's only working copy of its Kaylon Krisper and its inventors in the hands of the Kaylon. I also wondered why a race of logical mechanical beings wouldn't realize that, even though they couldn't shoot the Orville down in time to prevent firing the weapon, one or more of those big ol' globes could certainly ram it pretty hard.

Part of Ed seeming to be very dumb comes from McFarlane's limited acting range, and part from a script that barely tries to make sense.

Ed: I know our culture and society rejects all of the values that yours holds, and vice-versa, but you should send our daughter to be brought up in it by a man you hate.

Teleya: Sounds fine. She can be around to visit me when your courts try the elected head of state of a foreign power for war crimes and your testimony helps put me in jail. It will give us something to talk about.

I've enjoyed this show. But unless something wildly amazing happens in the season finale, it seems like it's time for me, at least, to move on.

[phalange]

17 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm trying to figure out if the anti-Kaylon weapon is no longer a threat. It seems like there would have to be people among the Moclan/Krill alliance who spent enough time with the weapon and must have some idea how to reverse-engineer it, right? I'm not sure if the Moclan weapon specialist would have escaped the destruction of the base or not. 

IIRC, the weapons specialist was killed by Kaylon Primary along with the other Moclans who tried to run out of the room, then the last Moclan was killed by Isaac. I don't think there were any Krill in the room with the weapon except Telaya who is now on Earth facing punishment, so presumably everyone who had clearance is either dead or in prison. Even if the Moclans working with the weapon had escaped the base, the blast from Charly destroying the core looked like it took out all the Moclan and Krill ships still in orbit anyway. Isaac appears to be the only person left with knowledge about how the weapon works.

[shapeshifter]

36 minutes ago, phalange said:

IIRC, the weapons specialist was killed by Kaylon Primary along with the other Moclans who tried to run out of the room, then the last Moclan was killed by Isaac

I may have missed something, but I thought the Moclan weapons specialist was allowed to leave unharmed ——presumably to survive another day to reverse engineer the doomsday device. But for which side of the war? I guess it depends…

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, tv-talk said:

Did she really though? I know that's how they portrayed it in her eulogy, but what she actually said in the moment was simply about doing her duty. She seemed to be showing her complete fealty to and belief in the Union moreso than any particular care for the Kaylans. At least that's how I thought it looked...

I think it was meant to be a sign that she had come around to respecting, or at least tolerating, the Kaylon as a people. The Charly we met in E1 of this season would have never risked her life to save the Kaylon no matter how much doing so might correspond with Union values or orders. She refused a direct order to help save a single Kaylon, the "best" Kaylon, one who ultimately saved the Union and Krill and countless biological lifeforms by turning on his own people. She was willing to potentially be court-martialed and imprisoned because she hated the Kaylon that much. Now she has grown enough to at least be like "genocide of the Kaylon? Not on my watch."

8 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

My theory on this is actually that Seth is going to retire his character.   He's pretty much set up Mercer wanting to be a full time Dad and he cant do that if he's a star ship captain.   Seth has already  said he cant handle duties on Orville and on his other projects .  Most people assumed that meant Orville would be going in hiatus.  But I think he might just give Mercer  retirement and let others take over day to day running of the Orville show.

I don't see Seth as giving up his toy voluntarily. The tradition in Trek might be that a starship captain can't be a dad too (well, except if you are part space God like Sisko), but who says that one can't?

Anyway, I do think the chances of another season of the Orville are relatively slim. But one where Ed is written out as a character would IMO be awesome. Seth was fine as a captain when the idea was the Orville was just kind of a journeyman ship of miscellaneous goofballs. But now that they are trying to make it more serious, he just doesn't have the gravitas or the acting chops to handle a more dramatic show. 

5 hours ago, kay1864 said:

- Anyone else think at first that the two people stealing the weapon were Kaylon spies?

Spying isn't the Kaylon style and they could never pull it off with their limited understanding of human culture. 

I did think that the two people stealing the weapon were undercover Krill spies, though, since we know they have the technology to look human and since Teleya managed to infiltrate the Union previously complete with a fake Union profile to serve on the Orville, it seemed possible that the Krill have more deep-cover agents.

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

Admiral Ted Danson, did you think you were going to get off scott free!??!  Well, the bar closed early.
Does Klyden do anything besides being the harpie wife? At least he has mellowed out that much that he still drives Bortus crazy.
Glad Charly is finally finished and she's with Amanda.  Of course McFarlene would give her a hero's exit. 
I don't get why Ed doesn't just go down with a small team to Krill, dressed as Krill and pull his daughter out.  If the poster above is right and he leaves Orville, I wouldn't be sure if I would stick around.  I like the Kelly/Ed team up.  Plus another kid on board would be great.
 

I take him at face value that he intended to turn himself in to the Union and face charges for what he did. If you mean, did he expect that the Krill would not blow him up real good, who knows? It wasn't clear to me whether Perry flew to Moclan space knowing that they would be willing to figure out and deploy the weapon, or if he went to Krill or somewhere between. But whatever the case, he might have been justified in thinking that there really wasn't much motivation for the Krill/Moclans to kill him in cold blood. It's not like they really had reason to fear the Union finding out that they were in cahoots. Without doing something as drastic as allying with the Kaylon, it seems unlikely that the Union would have been able to stop them from destroying the Kaylon or for that matter, achieving whatever other goals they might have short-term. Them shooting Perry down was pretty much made-for-TV villany.

3 hours ago, RevBrett said:

Although I'm sure there are exceptions, I find the show smarter when it's spoofy (earlier seasons) and stupid when it tries to be smart and serious. Someone above mentioned the strategic blunders of putting the Union's only working copy of its Kaylon Krisper and its inventors in the hands of the Kaylon. I also wondered why a race of logical mechanical beings wouldn't realize that, even though they couldn't shoot the Orville down in time to prevent firing the weapon, one or more of those big ol' globes could certainly ram it pretty hard.

Part of Ed seeming to be very dumb comes from McFarlane's limited acting range, and part from a script that barely tries to make sense.

Ed: I know our culture and society rejects all of the values that yours holds, and vice-versa, but you should send our daughter to be brought up in it by a man you hate.

Teleya: Sounds fine. She can be around to visit me when your courts try the elected head of state of a foreign power for war crimes and your testimony helps put me in jail. It will give us something to talk about.

I've enjoyed this show. But unless something wildly amazing happens in the season finale, it seems like it's time for me, at least, to move on.

I love the term Kaylon Krisper!

Yeah, the various Kaylon ships seemingly took little defensive action at all. I get that the Krisper was a new and threatening technology. But it's not as though the Orville isn't vulnerable to various conventional attacks. When there are literally 40 ships just kind of hanging out and mostly watching the Orville do its thing rather than shooping-the-whoop, or deploying drones, mines or any other form of defense....it boggles the mind. I mean, maybe they could have sold it as the Kaylon doing the AI equivalent of shitting their pants/having PTSD about biologicals actually making good on the threat to wipe them out.

And again, from the flipside, why would the Kaylon agree to let the ship with the Krisper on board within light-years of their home planet? At least without threatening some counter-offensive? Just conduct the negotiations through video or in a neutral location if it has to be face to face. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, phalange said:

IIRC, the weapons specialist was killed by Kaylon Primary along with the other Moclans who tried to run out of the room, then the last Moclan was killed by Isaac. I don't think there were any Krill in the room with the weapon except Telaya who is now on Earth facing punishment, so presumably everyone who had clearance is either dead or in prison. Even if the Moclans working with the weapon had escaped the base, the blast from Charly destroying the core looked like it took out all the Moclan and Krill ships still in orbit anyway. Isaac appears to be the only person left with knowledge about how the weapon works.

So the last Moclan was actually not killed. Isaac merely shot the weapon out of his hand and let him walk out. Kaylon Primary asked why Isaac did not terminate him and Isaac responded because it was not essential. So that Moclan presumably had time to get out of dodge. And there were a number of what I took to be Krill ships leaving the planet. I suppose that they and Moclan ships could have stayed in orbit but at some point when it was clear the core was about to blow, it seems like at least some would make it to safety.

Another issue: one would think that the Moclans and Krill would have transmitted at least some data about the device and their progress figuring it out elsewhere. It seems like especially with a Union/Kaylon alliance it would be a high priority to do what they could to figure out how the Krisper works or at least to let it inspire similar weapons, even if not on as massive a scale. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, tv-talk said:

And why was it that we see about a dozen Union people die in the attack, all apparently friends of the leads, but the ONLY death that matters at all was hers? Turrible.

There were a bunch of Union ships involved in this episode's battle, so it's possible that Charly was the only casualty from the Orville and the rest were being mourned by their respective ships. It would make sense to eventually do a fleetwide memorial for all the dead, but I could see immediate personalized memorials for those who knew particular crew particularly well. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, kay1864 said:

- Anyone else think at first that the two people stealing the weapon were Kaylon spies?

Yep. Because we had recently seen Isaac appear in human form.

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yep. Because we had recently seen Isaac appear in human form.

While he looked human, Isaac still acted like a Kaylon. I don't think a Kaylon-in-disguise would get very far without seeming off. 

It seems contrary to the Kaylon way of doing business that they would infiltrate rather than just use brute strength.

[Zaffy]

8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

You don't have to like her but this season has been about Charly and her character growth in alot of ways.   

If only Charlie was played by someone who could act..

[greekmom]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I take him at face value that he intended to turn himself in to the Union and face charges for what he did. If you mean, did he expect that the Krill would not blow him up real good, who knows? It wasn't clear to me whether Perry flew to Moclan space knowing that they would be willing to figure out and deploy the weapon, or if he went to Krill or somewhere between. But whatever the case, he might have been justified in thinking that there really wasn't much motivation for the Krill/Moclans to kill him in cold blood. It's not like they really had reason to fear the Union finding out that they were in cahoots. Without doing something as drastic as allying with the Kaylon, it seems unlikely that the Union would have been able to stop them from destroying the Kaylon or for that matter, achieving whatever other goals they might have short-term. Them shooting Perry down was pretty much made-for-TV villany.

To me it was a given that as soon as he delivered the weapon regardless if he gave himself up to the Union or not, he was a goner. The Krill are cutthroat. 

9 hours ago, kay1864 said:

- Anyone else think at first that the two people stealing the weapon were Kaylon spies?

Yes at first. Then I thought Krill.

[Colorado David]

the music is abrasively intrusive again.  uh oh a ship flyby, crank up that brass theme and ready the trumpet stabs. pewpewpew. every scene does NOT need music.

wow that device heist was amazingly easy. such a powerful weapon, and we have one security protocol in place protecting it. Brilliant. no one ever conceptualized a rogue higher up? 

i too fast forwarded through the song. i'm sure they have great singing voices, but it takes me out of the story quite a bit. there's a time and place, and a mini-vacation at this particular time seems out of place. also fast forwarded thru the later ship and trench battles. 

ummm...the weapon can't duplicated? it was all designed from memory and nobody made plans to create the device? is the argument charli is the only one who could operate it?

 

[shapeshifter]

39 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

the music is abrasively intrusive again.  uh oh a ship flyby, crank up that brass theme and ready the trumpet stabs. pewpewpew. every scene does NOT need music.

and/or using decent music as filler is kind of an insult to both the musicians and the audience.
The captioning for this episode has 38 instances of the phrase "music playing," including:
( intense music playing )
( contemplative music playing ) 
( light music playing )
( tranquil music playing )
( uneasy music playing ) 
( epic music playing )
( dramatic music playing )
( ominous music playing ) 
( martial music playing )
( heroic music playing )
( suspenseful music playing )

Admittedly, I don't have anything equivalent to compare it to, and my statistically-minded daughter would fault me for having too small of a sample size.
But Start Trek Discovery "Battle at the Binary Stars"  indicates music with "♪ ♪" and has fewer than 10 instances in 38 minutes, which could be 20 instances of background music in an episode of The Orville, or roughly half. 🤷‍♀️

 

39 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

ummm...the weapon can't duplicated? it was all designed from memory and nobody made plans to create the device? is the argument charli is the only one who could operate it?

This. So much this. Over and over in my mind throughout the episode.
Perhaps the destroyed doomsday weapon that had no schematics could become an example of a Plot Hole for a film writing class.

Edited July 29, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Jynnan tonnix]

13 hours ago, kay1864 said:

I would think after a battle they would recognize everyone who died in one memorial service, and pay tribute to each. 

I had to fast-forward through the folk song, just like I did the last one. I don’t need the Ed Mercer All-Star Variety Hour.

I enjoyed the song - much more than I did the prolonged space-battle - but that's just me. From the time I was very young, my vision of the ideal was being married to a man with a red beard who would sing folk songs with me in front of a fire in the evenings. Unfortunately, after 37 (and counting) years of marriage, Mr Jyn has yet to grow a beard of any color - if he did it would have not a hint of red - or sing anything beyond grudgingly participating in a "Happy Birthday".

Going back to the discussion upthread of whether Charly's demise signaled the end of her relationship with Seth, or whether she was due for a miraculous resurrection, I see this differently. It seems likely to me that her arc in the show, with the inclusion of showcasing her singing talent, was meant as a nice boost to her career, not tying her into a long-term character (if the show was to end up continuing successfully). My guess is that they are still a thing. Plus (me being me, again), it made me imagine the two of them singing together, which I'll admit to causing a slight pang of jealousy. Seth's love of singing has always been part of what I like about him.

[jah1986]

I had similar complaints that others had about this episode, from the blatant Star Wars rip-off (not necessarily a bad thing) to why isn't the priority duplicating this weapon? Also, why did the Kaylon help Orville retrieve the weapon, why not just kill everyone now while they're defenseless? It made no sense. I understood why Admiral Ted Danson did what he did, it was just stupid. And again, take your priority is to take your only weapon that can destroy your enemy and ask them to sign a peace treaty? Why isn't your priority mass producing the weapon and getting one on every ship in the fleet?

And again, Charly was not the only person from the Orville that was killed, I really hated that special memorial service just for her. I know why it happened that way, I just hated it. 

And please no more pausing the episodes for a musical number, was that the third or fourth one this season?

[Colorado David]

further thinking about it. we saw the weapon in engineering. so it's portable. transport it once and you have its complete template and structure in the transporter buffer, right? so copy this and bang it into an electronic blueprint.

I'm a bit of a soundtrack buff which is why i hear the music cues so much. incidental music is fine, expected - it can highlight scenes, introduce characters - but constant music in the background makes it become less important and even annoying.

[Lugal]

30 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

further thinking about it. we saw the weapon in engineering. so it's portable. transport it once and you have its complete template and structure in the transporter buffer, right? so copy this and bang it into an electronic blueprint.

Do they have transporters?  We always see them taking shuttles everywhere.  If they had transporters, I'm pretty sure a lot of episodes wouldn't be clocking in at 90 minutes.

14 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

And Damn it Ted Danson!   "True to his ethics even as he commits treason."

Still going to the Bad Place, though. (sorry, couldn't resist)

58 minutes ago, jah1986 said:

And again, Charly was not the only person from the Orville that was killed, I really hated that special memorial service just for her. I know why it happened that way, I just hated it.

Maybe it's like a funeral marathon?  After everyone says their piece about Charlie, they take down her picture and put up one of Asian Pilot Guy and starts the next service.

[Colorado David]

14 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Do they have transporters?  We always see them taking shuttles everywhere.  If they had transporters, I'm pretty sure a lot of episodes wouldn't be clocking in at 90 minutes.

LOL excellent point, I'm combining my shows I guess. I think you are correct. I sit corrected.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

further thinking about it. we saw the weapon in engineering. so it's portable. transport it once and you have its complete template and structure in the transporter buffer, right? so copy this and bang it into an electronic blueprint.

They don’t have transporters.  The crew have taken shuttles everywhere.  As much as it likes to take ideas from Star Trek we all have to be careful not to compare it too much to Star Trek.   Orville is it’s own show in its own universe with its own rules.    And Trek liked to take shortcuts with the transporter and a lot of its technology so I like the idea that The Orville lives in a technology advanced universe but one where not every problem can be solved with technobabble.

[kay1864]

3 hours ago, jah1986 said:

Why isn't your priority mass-producing the [genocidal] weapon and getting one on every ship in the fleet?

I think the adjective I added above may answer your question. 
Agreed though, they should’ve had at least one duplicate, and in another location. 

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

Maybe it's like a funeral marathon?  After everyone says their piece about Charlie, they take down her picture and put up one of Asian Pilot Guy and starts the next service.

“Hey, Isaac, can you wrap it up and leave out the pancakes? We got people waiting in the hall that don’t like Charlie but they’re big fans of Asian Pilot Guy.”