S06.E09: Fun and Games

[scenario]

24 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think I'll back out of this debate, as opposed to taking the time to examine the premises about the contemporary world you have put forth here. I will note in that millions of people have, in fact, given up destructive addictions. Have a good one.

Millions of people have given up destructive addictions and many have not. And many have died.

What's legal and what's moral are not the same. Chuck was a black and white thinker that believed that the law was sacred. If he had lived in 1850 in the U.S. he would have been pro slavery because slavery was legal. Chucks behavior pushed Jimmy into the behavior he despised. 

Many, if not most large companies have rules that are totally immoral but totally legal. Driving an old man out of his home when you have another piece of land to use is totally immoral but totally legal. Jimmy used illegal and immoral methods to stop a legal but immoral move. 

If you work in a large firm it is likely that you've done immoral things because that was the rule. Fortunately, that slippery slope doesn't lead anywhere for most people. 

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, TheOtherOne said:

But I think plenty would feel that betraying one's spouse by going to the authorities to make themselves feel better is also a shitty thing to do.  

I'm in that camp, sort of.  Kim chose the life and got out when it was no longer "fun".  She left Jimmy in a lurch instead of trying to make him better.  Going to the authorities should have been a decision they made together.  

I also think she is deluding herself if she thinks she can just walk away without consequences.  Her past will catch up to her someday.  She can't run away from her own conscience, and the legal authorities will eventually want to question Mrs. Goodman.    

1 hour ago, TheOtherOne said:

I actually think that makes it more rather than less interesting. It's a complex situation where there is no good answer.  

Honestly, I think attempting to dismiss her as a shitty person (your term) makes the story a lot less interesting and reduces much of her complexity. If she's just a shitty person doing shitty things...that's not interesting. ShadowFacts proposes that she's a bad human being who recognizes that and is punishing herself accordingly, but would a bad human being punish herself? Human beings are flawed. Human beings make bad or wrong choices. Maybe she's not a good person or a shitty person. Maybe she's just...a person?

I totally agree with this.  I use a phrase when it comes to evaluating TV shows:  "Don't let the mustard overwhelm the dill."  I was at an upscale deli and ordered a turkey sandwich with pesto sauce.  When I asked the server if she could add mustard, she said she could, but then I would not be able to taste the dill in the pesto sauce.  For me there is more value in pondering the complexities and nuances of people (ie, savoring the dill) than indulging in righteous indignation over the bad things they've done (ie, adding the mustard).  

Edited July 21, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Bannon]

39 minutes ago, scenario said:

Millions of people have given up destructive addictions and many have not. And many have died.

What's legal and what's moral are not the same. Chuck was a black and white thinker that believed that the law was sacred. If he had lived in 1850 in the U.S. he would have been pro slavery because slavery was legal. Chucks behavior pushed Jimmy into the behavior he despised. 

Many, if not most large companies have rules that are totally immoral but totally legal. Driving an old man out of his home when you have another piece of land to use is totally immoral but totally legal. Jimmy used illegal and immoral methods to stop a legal but immoral move. 

If you work in a large firm it is likely that you've done immoral things because that was the rule. Fortunately, that slippery slope doesn't lead anywhere for most people. 

Really disagree with the notion that expecting a contract to be fulfilled is immoral. Mesa Verde Kevin was a jackass, but not because of the terms he offered the old bastard who felt entitled to ignore the agreements he voluntarily entered into.

30 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I'm in that camp, sort of.  Kim chose the life and got out when it was no longer fun.  She left Jimmy in a lurch instead of trying to make him better.  Going to the authorities should have been a decision they made together.  

I also think she is deluding herself if she thinks she can just walk away without consequences.  Her past will catch up to her someday.  She can't run away from her own conscience, and the legal authorities will eventually want to question Mrs. Goodman.    

I totally agree with this.  I use a phrase when it comes to evaluating TV shows:  "Don't let the mustard overwhelm the dill."  I was at an upscale deli and ordered a turkey sandwich with pesto sauce.  When I asked the server if she could add mustard, she said she could, but then I would not be able to taste the dill in the pesto sauce.  For me there is more value in pondering the complexities and nuances of people (ie, savoring the dill) than indulging in righteous indignation over the bad things they've done (ie, adding the mustard).  

Except I didn't dismiss Kim as a shitty person, nor was I being righteously indignant about Kim's choice. If somebody chooses to be awful, however, that choice can be extremely interesting, as is the case with Kim and Saul. That doesn't change the fact that they have chosen to be awful people, and there is no reason for the audience to avoid that reality, like both Kim and Saul have on multiple occasions. Manuel Vargas' interaction with Mike in this episode is all about this; stop lying to yourself about the person you are choosing to be.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Bannon

[JudyObscure]

33 minutes ago, scenario said:

Many, if not most large companies have rules that are totally immoral but totally legal. Driving an old man out of his home when you have another piece of land to use is totally immoral but totally legal. Jimmy used illegal and immoral methods to stop a legal but immoral move. 

I saw nothing immoral in forcing a man to sell his home when he bought it for less than market value with the understanding that he might have to sell it back at some time.

In our world certain adjectives seem to bring a big "moral" advantage to some people and make anything you do to their disadvantage seem immoral, but it often is not.

People need to make the loan payments they agreed to when they signed a promissory note. They need to pay the rent and utilities before buying that fun stuff, if the bank or the car dealership comes after them later they aren't immoral just because the person they're collecting from happens to be a single mother, old person, sick person or minority member, etc.

We can hope help comes for them through the morals of friends, family, churches and charities, but that doesn't make the big institutions immoral.  If they operated according to who had the biggest sob story they would soon fail and hurt far more people in the process.

So no.  I didn't think Kim was living an immoral life while working for Mesa Verde and I'm not sure she was always on the side of good with her pro bono work.   She might find herself working hard to get  child custody returned to a mother only to find out she abused the child.  She might believe allegations of spousal abuse that later proves to be false.   It's not always easy to determine the right moral choice in any job.

Back to Jimmy and his moral choices, everyone seems to forget that, by all accounts his father was a wonderful, kind, generous man.  The same sex parent is considered to be the strongest influence in anyone's life. I never understood why Jimmy was willing to toss out that example and live by the motto of a lying thief who passed through.

{sorry cross posted with Bannon]

[Bannon]

This thread really illuminates for me why I think BCS is among the best television shows I've ever seen, maybe better than BB. Thanks to all for participating, even (perhaps especially) those I've differed with.

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

This thread really illuminates for me why I think BCS is among the best television shows I've ever seen, maybe better than BB. Thanks to all for participating, even (perhaps especially) those I've differed with.

I've disagreed with you but I respect your opinion. You always have good reasons for what you say. It's not just a bunch of name calling like I've seen on way too many sites. 

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, scenario said:

I've disagreed with you but I respect your opinion. You always have good reasons for what you say. It's not just a bunch of name calling like I've seen on way too many sites. 

In terms of internet forums I've participated in, this is about the best, in terms of people being charitable, engaging in good faith, and having something to say. A lot of credit goes to the people who manage this site.

[sistermagpie]

53 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I totally agree with this.  I use a phrase when it comes to evaluating TV shows:  "Don't let the mustard overwhelm the dill."  I was at an upscale deli and ordered a turkey sandwich with pesto sauce.  When I asked the server if she could add mustard, she said she could, but then I would not be able to taste the dill in the pesto sauce.  For me there is more value in pondering the complexities and nuances of people (ie, savoring the dill) than indulging in righteous indignation over the bad things they've done (ie, adding the mustard).  

Reading the conversation, it seems like the opposite is happening, really. There's just a disagreement on what the dill is--or how to describe it. Whether we would describe Jimmy and Kim as choosing to be shitty people or not, I think it's the same discussion, because we're all looking at things that they've done and why. 

For instance, I do think that Jimmy always being told he's bad (by Howard, Chuck and I think accidentally here by Kim) influences him to be bad. But of course it's still possible for him to decide instead to say, "Fuck what they think--I'm going to be a good person regardless." It is still in his hands--just as Kim could have stayed with Jimmy and *not* continued to be a terrible person. She just knew herself well enough to think that if she did that she'd wind up breaking up with him anyway. I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of her speech. That she believed that if Jimmy chose to do the right thing by stopping the scam against Howard like he wanted to do, the very scheme that caused Howard's death and wasn't justified at all, she would no longer have wanted to be in the relationship.

28 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Back to Jimmy and his moral choices, everyone seems to forget that, by all accounts his father was a wonderful, kind, generous man.  The same sex parent is considered to be the strongest influence in anyone's life. I never understood why Jimmy was willing to toss out that example and live by the motto of a lying thief who passed through.

{sorry cross posted with Bannon]

This makes total sense to me. It ironically comes out of one of Jimmy's better qualities. He loved his dad, he knew his dad was a nice guy, and he saw him abused for it over and over again. It made him into a fool. That made Jimmy never want to be a fool himself, but I think the reason he felt so strongly about it was because his initial reaction was to feel protective of his father. That protectiveness eventually gave way to something like contempt maybe, but that was after years of his father not letting Jimmy help him and seemingly being unable to be a good guy without being a sucker.

I mean, there's a point where with somebody like that you have to consider whether he's giving all this money away really because he thinks people need it and not because he just likes to avoid confrontation and can't stand up for himself or disappoint anyone.

I would say Chuck seemed to react kind of similarly, in fact, only his protectiveness of his father turned into a judgmental attitude, as if his father's bad decisions were all completely morally pure, so those who took advantage deserved the harshest vengeance for cheating him.

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Reading the conversation, it seems like the opposite is happening, really. There's just a disagreement on what the dill is--or how to describe it. Whether we would describe Jimmy and Kim as choosing to be shitty people or not, I think it's the same discussion, because we're all looking at things that they've done and why. 

For instance, I do think that Jimmy always being told he's bad (by Howard, Chuck and I think accidentally here by Kim) influences him to be bad. But of course it's still possible for him to decide instead to say, "Fuck what they think--I'm going to be a good person regardless." It is still in his hands--just as Kim could have stayed with Jimmy and *not* continued to be a terrible person. She just knew herself well enough to think that if she did that she'd wind up breaking up with him anyway. I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of her speech. That she believed that if Jimmy chose to do the right thing by stopping the scam against Howard like he wanted to do, the very scheme that caused Howard's death and wasn't justified at all, she would no longer have wanted to be in the relationship.

This is a great insight. Kim's self commentary in her speech to Jimmy is devastating, as devastating as any self commentary of a character in this universe, which means it ranks with Hank's frank description (to Marie) of his failings as a man, as he starts his slow climb to a sort of nobility, even though it still ends with his tragic pride being his demise. Also with Walt, after he has created a universe of suffering, finally admitting that he did it because it made him feel alive.

[MJ Frog]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That she believed that if Jimmy chose to do the right thing by stopping the scam against Howard like he wanted to do, the very scheme that caused Howard's death and wasn't justified at all, she would no longer have wanted to be in the relationship.

Yes, that really caught my attention also. It sort of slid by, but that was both the most honest and most awful thing she said in that conversation.

[ShadowFacts]

47 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

So no.  I didn't think Kim was living an immoral life while working for Mesa Verde and I'm not sure she was always on the side of good with her pro bono work.   She might find herself working hard to get  child custody returned to a mother only to find out she abused the child.  She might believe allegations of spousal abuse that later proves to be false.   It's not always easy to determine the right moral choice in any job.

I am very fuzzy on the events because I haven't seen those episodes for so long, but I think what Kim did wrong there was, in working behind the scenes with Jimmy, she actively worked against the interest of her client and cost Mesa Verde a lot of money.  Up until then, she did excellent work for them, they loved her, but she went down a bad choice road as I think Mike called those type of decisions. She did the same sort of thing with helping Jimmy set up Chuck to look bad, thus precipitating his downfall, so in retrospect I shouldn't have been surprised she did the same to Howard.  Now that I think about it, she's been self-sabotaging for quite awhile, was making a name for herself, very successful only a couple years out from being an associate at HHM, then choosing to have fun messing with people's lives.  I do hope we get a little more of what she does in the future, I feel like her story is too unfinished yet. 

[Adiba]

The thing for me about Kim is that she may have been born into a rough environment, but she did have some advantages— namely, brains and beauty. 
 

She also had the very good fortune and generosity of HHM paying her way through school. Not everyone gets that leg up. Just as Kim chose to work hard and graduate law school, she chose to participate and later mastermind shenanigans with Jimmy.

Kim admitted why she chose not to tell Jimmy (or the authorities) that Lalo was still alive— she didn’t want the Howard plan to stop— she was having too much fun. Kim was addicted to the high, the thrill of the con.

When Kim twisted the knife in Cheryl, she wasn’t saving Jimmy’s life or even his reputation. She did it because she sees herself as Jimmy’s defender— she did the same thing to Howard when Chuck died. Kim resembles what we’ve heard of Jimmy’s mother—her love for him causes her to try to protect him. This protection, however, is misguided and has unintended negative consequences. “Helping” Jimmy was actually ultimately hurting him, easing his transition into Saul.

[Cinnabon]

7 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

Well for just one, how about the man in the bar where they screwed him into buying that crazy expensive bottle of Zafiro Anejo Tequila and even took a big check (never cashed) from him for the fake business investment?  What did he do to deserve their BS scam?

He was a complete douche? 🤣🤣🤣

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

He was kind of an a-hole. I remember thinking he deserved some kind of "punishment" just for being a jerk. Maybe not that punishment, but suffice it to say my heart didn't go out to him.

I cheered them on in that scene, and Walt’s scene with him may have been the only time I liked Walt.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Back to Jimmy and his moral choices, everyone seems to forget that, by all accounts his father was a wonderful, kind, generous man.  The same sex parent is considered to be the strongest influence in anyone's life. I never understood why Jimmy was willing to toss out that example and live by the motto of a lying thief who passed through.

I felt like Jimmy did not respect his father. He respected Chuck because he was a success.

There is a difference between a kind generous man and a fool that hands over his family's mortgage payment to grifters because "it is the right thing to do".

Everyone in town loved Jimmy's dad but that did not keep him from losing his business and dying a failure in Jimmy's eyes.

My friend's father-in-law was the same way. He loaned out money very generously to anyone who asked and in the end had nothing for himself and his family. He believes that he will be repaid in Heaven but that will not keep a roof over his family's head on earth.

[BC4ME]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of her speech. That she believed that if Jimmy chose to do the right thing by stopping the scam against Howard like he wanted to do, the very scheme that caused Howard's death and wasn't justified at all, she would no longer have wanted to be in the relationship.

2 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Yes, that really caught my attention also. It sort of slid by, but that was both the most honest and most awful thing she said in that conversation.

I'm glad this is being discussed because days later, I'm still taken aback by the statement that if Jimmy stopped the scam, they would break up. I'm not sure whether I don't completely understand or whether I just don't want to understand what's obvious. It's just hard for me to come to terms with that for Kim. I feel like I had her wrong in some ways. I can't imagine how devastating it would be for Jimmy. 

[JudyObscure]

58 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought that was one of the most interesting parts of her speech. That she believed that if Jimmy chose to do the right thing by stopping the scam against Howard like he wanted to do, the very scheme that caused Howard's death and wasn't justified at all, she would no longer have wanted to be in the relationship.

3 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Yes, that really caught my attention also. It sort of slid by, but that was both the most honest and most awful thing she said in that conversation.

We really saw that at the end of last season.  Kim and Jimmy were in bed talking about doing something really horrible to Howard and then Jimmy laughed and said something like, "We're just kidding right?  We aren't really going to do this are we?" and Kim turned around and shot her air guns and said, "Just watch me."  (Paraphrasing.)  Jimmy's smile got a little shaky.  I think he knew then he had to do it to please her.  We just didn't want to believe it.

Edited July 21, 2022 by JudyObscure

[Lonesome Rhodes]

A good person, or bad one, must be determined by actions.  Redemption is ALWAYS an option.  If one chooses to do bad things without end, they, and we, are diminished.  Among evil's greatest tools is to trick us into seeing the "good" in bad people, thereby reducing the actual threat of that person.

IMO, whether we see it or not, there is always good within us all (typically called a "soul" in the West).  But, if bad acts are dominant, a person is bad.  again - with every chance of redemption.

Jimmy had a clear moment when he fully turned - after Marco's death when he  consciously put on Marco's ring.  I'm not sure of Kim's moment, but it may be when she left HHM despite Howard's clear support and respect.  I think she understood that she would be stifled from having "fun."  She needed and chose room to operate.

In the BCS universe, Senor Varga is the only character of importance I can think of who fits the bill.  Only somebody of his purity could gut a Mike as he did.  His son may have been fully redeemed, as well.  Perhaps a few of the Sandpiper victims, too.

There is certainly a gradation.  G&G are brilliant fleshing such out.

Someone mentioned that Gus was unlovable/unlikeable.  I think Lyle would take serious umbrage at that notion.  

[Lalo Lives]

10 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

This explains episode 9's time jump

https://screenrant.com/better-call-saul-season-6-episode-9-timejump-length/amp/

This explains is Gus gay? 

https://screenrant.com/gus-fring-gay-better-call-saul-breaking-bad-confirmed/?_gl=1*t5nl7s*_ga*cnluQ1dxY2Rad05RbWUtTG5na2FXWjVvcjdoVkZ1dHcwd1ZtRXV5ZG5CbGFUeEtYczhydkVySEZYRndhX0JqUA..

Moochass graciolis for the time jump link. Helpful.

[PeterPirate]

10 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Jimmy had a clear moment when he fully turned - after Marco's death when he  consciously put on Marco's ring.  I'm not sure of Kim's moment, but it may be when she left HHM despite Howard's clear support and respect.  I think she understood that she would be stifled from having "fun."  She needed and chose room to operate. 

For me Kim's moment came when Chuck told her about Jimmy switching the numbers on the Mesa Verde paperwork so she could get the account.  She told Chuck he was nuts, but a few moments later when she alone with Jimmy, she slapped him.  Chuck had no proof to back up his allegations, but Kim "knew" Chuck was right.  And she kept Mesa Verde as a client.

10 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

A good person, or bad one, must be determined by actions.  Redemption is ALWAYS an option. 

I wonder what Jimmy/Saul/Gene could do in the last few episodes that could redeem him in the eyes of most viewers.  Could it be as simple as reuniting with Kim, only this time promising to really use their powers for good?  Or would he have to atone for his past  actions and turn himself over to the authorities?  

For that matter, J&K both need redemption and both deserve to be in prison.  Maybe the final scene will have them walking together into the courthouse to turn themselves in.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

Something I haven't seen discussed is how Kim's action of suddenly leaving her profession and presumably Albuquerque is exactly contrary to what Mike told her and Jimmy to do.  They were not even to stare off into space.  We don't know anything about Howard's widow, but this might prompt her to investigate more. There was too much activity at Kim and Jim's apartment that night what with lots of Mike's men running upstairs and coming and going with various supplies and a refrigerator. Somebody in that complex, up late, walking a dog, coming home from wherever, saw some of it. Maybe an observant neighbor, played by a guest star, drops a dime. 

[Lalo Lives]

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

Something I haven't seen discussed is how Kim's action of suddenly leaving her profession and presumably Albuquerque is exactly contrary to what Mike told her and Jimmy to do.  They were not even to stare off into space.  We don't know anything about Howard's widow, but this might prompt her to investigate more. There was too much activity at Kim and Jim's apartment that night what with lots of Mike's men running upstairs and coming and going with various supplies and a refrigerator. Somebody in that complex, up late, walking a dog, coming home from wherever, saw some of it. Maybe an observant neighbor, played by a guest star, drops a dime. 

Wow! This is SO on point.

Mike wanted them to ‘be vanilla’ but Kim chose to do something that may make her actions stand out. And therefore Jimmy’s actions. And potentially Mike and Gus’ actions.

I’m through guessing.

I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the show.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Lalo Lives said:

Wow! This is SO on point.

Mike wanted them to ‘be vanilla’ but Kim chose to do something that may make her actions stand out. And therefore Jimmy’s actions. And potentially Mike and Gus’ actions.

I’m through guessing.

I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the show.

Kim's behavior is certainly likely to reignite Cheryl's suspicions. Hell, maybe even old, slow, Cliff will begin to catch the inkling of a clue.

[Starchild]

But the fact we went through the time jump straight to a seemingly content Saul, the likelihood that anything substantial was uncovered in the wake of Kim's flight is low.

[scenario]

Look at it like a someone who knew Kim might think.

Kim is a workaholic. She's been working for 60,70 or more hours a week for years. She fairly recently was seriously injured when she fell asleep at the wheel and crashed her car because of her working long hours. 

Around that time, she changed her goals. She was sick of working for corporations, slowly killing herself to make rich people richer. So she switched to defending poor people. 

Around that time she married her long time boyfriend but the marriage wasn't working out. 

She had two mentors at HHM, Howard and Chuck. The stress got to Chuck years ago. He was seriously mentally ill and ended up killing himself.  She saw that the stress to Howard was getting to him also. Behind the happy face was a man whose marriage was disintegrating and was turning to drugs. She had seen it but hadn't told anyone and she felt guilty about that.

She's getting disillusioned with working for the poor. For every downtrodden victim she's helping there are 10 criminals she's helping to victimize more people. She still wanted to help but wasn't sure if it was worth it to her. 

Then her other mentor, Howard killed himself. It was partly her fault. Her two mentors both had failed marriages and both killed themselves. Her marriage is failing. She's on the same treadmill that killed them. She had to get off the treadmill or she'd be the one killing herself in a few years.  

Kim had a midlife crisis which has happened to many people. Howard's suicide was the last straw. (As an outsider would see it.)

[ShadowFacts]

49 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim's behavior is certainly likely to reignite Cheryl's suspicions. Hell, maybe even old, slow, Cliff will begin to catch the inkling of a clue.

Yes, and Cliff knows Kim bailed on something very important to her on the same day Howard had his humiliating meltdown. The last day he was seen alive? 

[Starchild]

It's tantalizing. We know there's a post-BB storyline. Perhaps Howard will get some justice after all.

[Constantinople]

50 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, and Cliff knows Kim bailed on something very important to her on the same day Howard had his humiliating meltdown. The last day he was seen alive? 

It seems odd this has been dropped.

I can understand with everything that tapped that Cliff doesn't remember Howard telling him about the phony PI number.

But the Jackson Mercer Foundation was important to Cliff. Cliff is the one who put Kim in touch with them and vouched for her. It's odd he had no reaction at all to Kim blowing off her meeting with them.

[scenario]

47 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, and Cliff knows Kim bailed on something very important to her on the same day Howard had his humiliating meltdown. The last day he was seen alive? 

In the last year or two,

Kim quit HHM to work for another law firm.

Then she quit that law firm to start her own to do corporate law.

Then she got into a serious car crash which almost killed her because she was working so hard.

Then she married her long term boyfriend on a whim. 

Then she stopped doing corporate law to work help poor clients.

It sounds like a woman going through a life crisis to me. She bailed on something very important to her when she decided to change her life around once again like she'd been doing every few months over the last year or two.  

[Milburn Stone]

20 hours ago, scenario said:

Kim had a midlife crisis which has happened to many people. Howard's suicide was the last straw. (As an outsider would see it.)

I think you're probably right.

Question: Resigning from the bar in New Mexico--that's just a state thing, right? Meaning wherever she ends up, presuming it's in another state, she could, if she wishes, take the bar exam of that state and resume her career as a lawyer. If that's so, then her decision is not quite as much a "goodbye to all that" as I first thought.

Edited to change Arizona to New Mexico. D'oh!

Edited July 23, 2022 by Milburn Stone

[scenario]

4 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I think you're probably right.

Question: Resigning from the bar in Arizona--that's just a state thing, right? Meaning wherever she ends up, presuming it's in another state, she could, if she wishes, take the bar exam of that state and resume her career as a lawyer. If that's so, then her decision is not quite as much a "goodbye to all that" as I first thought.

I don't know but she left. She wasn't disbarred. I can't see why not. And if the state she moves to has an agreement with New Mexico she may not have to take the bar. 

[Penman61]

Question about a possibly trivial moment:

At the end of Gus and Mike's meeting in the tunnel, Gus gives Mike one last wordless look back, and Mike returns the look. Then Gus closes the tunnel door.

What was that last look about? 

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, scenario said:

In the last year or two,

Kim quit HHM to work for another law firm.

Then she quit that law firm to start her own to do corporate law.

Then she got into a serious car crash which almost killed her because she was working so hard.

Then she married her long term boyfriend on a whim. 

Then she stopped doing corporate law to work help poor clients.

It sounds like a woman going through a life crisis to me. She bailed on something very important to her when she decided to change her life around once again like she'd been doing every few months over the last year or two.  

She's been job-hopping and married Jimmy without fanfare but there's nothing unusual about the quick wedding. Cliff has a couple other pieces to put together, he was present at two of the set-ups of Howard, and he well knows her husband's propensity for trouble. He should be at least wondering about the disappearance of Howard after the bizarre Sandpiper meeting and the other things he's witnessed.

53 minutes ago, scenario said:

I don't know but she left. She wasn't disbarred. I can't see why not. And if the state she moves to has an agreement with New Mexico she may not have to take the bar. 

She can practice again but I don't know if she would want to. Why did she leave the NM bar at all?  All she had to do was not practice anymore and not pay dues next year. I think it was a statement, a reaction to what happened to Howard who was her mentor and responsible for financing her legal education. 

[gallimaufry]

19 hours ago, BC4ME said:

I'm glad this is being discussed because days later, I'm still taken aback by the statement that if Jimmy stopped the scam, they would break up. I'm not sure whether I don't completely understand or whether I just don't want to understand what's obvious. It's just hard for me to come to terms with that for Kim. I feel like I had her wrong in some ways. I can't imagine how devastating it would be for Jimmy. 

I agree that this is a difficult one.

This is my first attempt at an interpretation, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

If you go back to 510, Jimmy really does sound ready to break up.  He asks Kim "am I bad for you?" and the fact that she quotes back the line makes absolutely clear this was a seminal moment for her.  Jimmy knows he's let Lalo into their lives and he later admits it's just "this time" - he won't change and he will slip up again.  She convinced him not to go home and to stay at the hotel.  She's a smart lady - Jimmy sees himself as toxic (and, let's face it, he's not wrong) and so a next logical step especially with the threat of Lalo is to force a break-up.

She acts, as she so often does, reflexively.  The Howard motif comes immediately after the "this time" conversation.  I still think she was not going after Howard because fundamentally she dislikes Howard.  I don't think she has much love for the guy but as Howard himself said in 607, there were no serious motives.  But overall I think she was indifferent to him.  But she needed a way to keep Jimmy and so she chooses a scam that they can both get on board with - Jimmy because it plays on (and indeed furthers) his existing resentment and she because, as Vince Gilligan likes to say, the juice is worth the squeeze in terms of her pro bono business.  The times they're closest are where they scam together and the times they're driven apart is when they (usually Jimmy) scam separately so there is some credibility to this.  She even matches the finger guns and challenges his preconceptions with "wouldn't I?" -- all to keep Jimmy in the relationship.

What's fascinating about this is we've always seem Jimmy's deep insecurities but by S5 they've really evaporated.  He doesn't need an office to prove Kim's love - they have marriage vows.  But Kim, who from the flashbacks with her hot-and-cold, unreliable mother, has seemingly never had that kind of devoted love in her life.

In 510, when Howard confronts Kim with what Jimmy has been doing, she knows that he is on a destructive course that she can't control and that does no good.  There are dark issues there that they need to face, that Jimmy refused to deal with in therapy, that Jimmy has never discussed (until, ironically, he talks about his jealousy over Howard to Cheryl Hamlin and Rhea Seehorn plays that reaction magnificently - it's like she's been kicked in the guts that now he can open up about this terrible wound).  So she presents a scam they can both get invested in that keeps them together.

This then is the reason for the 606 U-turn.  If she was not involved in the execution of the plan, not only would she lose control of it, but it would cease to be an achievement they have together and it would separate them.  A pro bono practice might be everything she wants in a career sense and she often talks as though her career is her centre, describing a career win as the best day of her life.  But really, and perhaps on some level even she can't fully enunciate as emotionally repressed as she is, it's love of Jimmy.   This opportunity would take her away from Jimmy and lead to their break-up and that's unconscionable.

I'll have to look back to see if it tracks but I certainly feel it's a stronger explanation than Howard's assumptions in 607 (although some of those were pretty accurate, considering).

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree that this is a difficult one.

This is my first attempt at an interpretation, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

If you go back to 510, Jimmy really does sound ready to break up.  He asks Kim "am I bad for you?" and the fact that she quotes back the line makes absolutely clear this was a seminal moment for her.  Jimmy knows he's let Lalo into their lives and he later admits it's just "this time" - he won't change and he will slip up again.  She convinced him not to go home and to stay at the hotel.  She's a smart lady - Jimmy sees himself as toxic (and, let's face it, he's not wrong) and so a next logical step especially with the threat of Lalo is to force a break-up.

She acts, as she so often does, reflexively.  The Howard motif comes immediately after the "this time" conversation.  I still think she was not going after Howard because fundamentally she dislikes Howard.  I don't think she has much love for the guy but as Howard himself said in 607, there were no serious motives.  But overall I think she was indifferent to him.  But she needed a way to keep Jimmy and so she chooses a scam that they can both get on board with - Jimmy because it plays on (and indeed furthers) his existing resentment and she because, as Vince Gilligan likes to say, the juice is worth the squeeze in terms of her pro bono business.  The times they're closest are where they scam together and the times they're driven apart is when they (usually Jimmy) scam separately so there is some credibility to this.  She even matches the finger guns and challenges his preconceptions with "wouldn't I?" -- all to keep Jimmy in the relationship.

What's fascinating about this is we've always seem Jimmy's deep insecurities but by S5 they've really evaporated.  He doesn't need an office to prove Kim's love - they have marriage vows.  But Kim, who from the flashbacks with her hot-and-cold, unreliable mother, has seemingly never had that kind of devoted love in her life.

In 510, when Howard confronts Kim with what Jimmy has been doing, she knows that he is on a destructive course that she can't control and that does no good.  There are dark issues there that they need to face, that Jimmy refused to deal with in therapy, that Jimmy has never discussed (until, ironically, he talks about his jealousy over Howard to Cheryl Hamlin and Rhea Seehorn plays that reaction magnificently - it's like she's been kicked in the guts that now he can open up about this terrible wound).  So she presents a scam they can both get invested in that keeps them together.

This then is the reason for the 606 U-turn.  If she was not involved in the execution of the plan, not only would she lose control of it, but it would cease to be an achievement they have together and it would separate them.  A pro bono practice might be everything she wants in a career sense and she often talks as though her career is her centre, describing a career win as the best day of her life.  But really, and perhaps on some level even she can't fully enunciate as emotionally repressed as she is, it's love of Jimmy.   This opportunity would take her away from Jimmy and lead to their break-up and that's unconscionable.

I'll have to look back to see if it tracks but I certainly feel it's a stronger explanation than Howard's assumptions in 607 (although some of those were pretty accurate, considering).

This is a really intriguing theory--my one question about it is how it tracks with Kim's admission that she couldn't let him go because she was having too much fun? Because here it seems like she's scamming to keep him, rather than because it's fun.

[Starchild]

One thing I'm a little confused about, when Kim breaks up with Jimmy, she says that if she told him about Lalo, three things would happen:

1. Jimmy would want them (or at least her) to hide until she could be safe
2. while hiding, they would have to drop the con against Howard
3. they would break up

I can see how 1 & 2 make sense with Lalo at large, but I'm not exactly sure what she means with 3. 

Which of them is she thinkin would initiate the breakup in this scenario?

Does she mean Jimmy would break up with her? Why? Because she lied about Lalo? Doesn't seem likely. I think she knows Jimmy would value their relationship more than that.

Or does she mean that she would break up with Jimmy? Again, why? Because he would force the cessation of the con against Howard? Was she so fixated on destroying Howard at that moment that she would break up her marriage to do so? As wild a thought as that is, it seems more likely than Jimmy leaving her in that scenario.

[SimplexFish]

Kim is not gone until shes gone...all we saw was her packing and leaving Jimmy, nothing more. I think she has a different fate awaiting her besides what was possibly eluded to in the last episode. We will see her in at least one more show sooner or later

Edited July 22, 2022 by SimplexFish

[gallimaufry]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This is a really intriguing theory--my one question about it is how it tracks with Kim's admission that she couldn't let him go because she was having too much fun? Because here it seems like she's scamming to keep him, rather than because it's fun.

Good point though I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive.  She loves scamming and they're never closer than when they're scamming.  She didn't pick Howard as a target because she couldn't get on board and love the grift.  She deliberately picked it because they both enjoy it and it would bond them -- and it did as 607 showed.  However, I'm not sure the impetus was the grifting so much as solving a problem with the relationship.

[gallimaufry]

19 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Which of them is she thinkin would initiate the breakup in this scenario?

Does she mean Jimmy would break up with her? Why? Because she lied about Lalo? Doesn't seem likely. I think she knows Jimmy would value their relationship more than that.

Because he feels he's toxic and would push Kim away to save her.  Frankly, that would be the most logical move -- if a sociopath is on the prowl looking for you, you would want your loved ones far away from danger.  Certainly PTSD Jimmy of 510 was starting a line of discussion that had a ring of finality to it.

I'm not sure Kim's judgment is necessarily right on this but she doesn't see Jimmy in the same way we do, following the ins and outs of the scenes.  She sees there's a logical solution to this and it's one she expects he might take - but it's not one she can countenance.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Question about a possibly trivial moment:

At the end of Gus and Mike's meeting in the tunnel, Gus gives Mike one last wordless look back, and Mike returns the look. Then Gus closes the tunnel door.

What was that last look about? 

I agree that stuck out as strange.  I've just rewatched the scene and my first go at an interpretation is in the subtext.

The mood of the scene drops once Gus wants to reopen the lab.  Mike has said "for all practical purposes, it's over" and I think feels like the whole thing is over - Lalo is dead and the immediate problem that Mike was recruited for in 505 is now dealt with.  Gus however immediately pushes onto resuming construction of the superlab which of course led Mike to quit in 501 and now is associated in his mind with the deaths of not just Werner but also Cesar and Howard.  Mike seems to take a beat to swallow his disgust and realise that, of course, this is the next step - Gus has no deep concern for the fates of these people (and, as he said in 505, never claimed to).  Mike gives practical difficulties by way of resistance but doesn't say no so Gus pushes on.

At this point, it's clear that Mike disapproves and it's on him to say something.  He left Gus' employ before over this issue.  So I feel like Gus is basically giving him the opportunity to say more, which Mike doesn't do.  This confirms that while Mike may disapprove, he still consents - without this last look, Gus could have a question in his mind about Mike's willingness to comply.  This allows Gus to shut the door and end the discussion safe in the knowledge that Mike is sound on the plan.  But actually what interests me most is the end of the following sequence when you see Mike's shadow hanging like Nosferatu.  It's a really ugly piece of imagery showing how Mike is presented as literally a shadow of his former self.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, and Cliff knows Kim bailed on something very important to her on the same day Howard had his humiliating meltdown. The last day he was seen alive? 

Before this ep I thought Cliff might want to dig into things. But seeing how emotional, how overwhelmed he was from Howard's "suicide," I don't think he'll do anything. He seemed impotent. Despite everything Howard told him after the meeting, Cliff believes that Howard was using drugs. And now he feels guilty for not doing more about it, whatever that could have been, but something to help Howard and save him. I think Cliff is consumed with these feelings and doesn't have room for rational thought.

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Question about a possibly trivial moment:

At the end of Gus and Mike's meeting in the tunnel, Gus gives Mike one last wordless look back, and Mike returns the look. Then Gus closes the tunnel door.

What was that last look about? 

In Courtney's video recap/analysis (see Media Thread), she connects this look with the one at Don Eladio's pool, when Eladio told Gus he saw a little hate in his eyes. Courtney suggests that Gus was looking at Mike to see if there was hate in HIS eyes. 

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This is a really intriguing theory--my one question about it is how it tracks with Kim's admission that she couldn't let him go because she was having too much fun? Because here it seems like she's scamming to keep him, rather than because it's fun.

I'm taking Kim at her word, that if she told Jimmy, the scam would fall by the wayside, and she didn't want that. Then she would be so pissed at not finishing the scam that she would resent Jimmy and break up with him. Yes, she enjoyed scamming with him. It was certainly more fun with a partner. But I disagree that she was doing the scam as a bonding experience with Jimmy, and that if the scam ended, the bond would as well.

5 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

But actually what interests me most is the end of the following sequence when you see Mike's shadow hanging like Nosferatu.  It's a really ugly piece of imagery showing how Mike is presented as literally a shadow of his former self.

 I too thought of Nosferatu! I wondered how intentional that was. Love your observation that this is a shadow of his former self.

[gallimaufry]

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

In Courtney's video recap/analysis (see Media Thread), she connects this look with the one at Don Eladio's pool, when Eladio told Gus he saw a little hate in his eyes. Courtney suggests that Gus was looking at Mike to see if there was hate in HIS eyes. 

That's a great catch.

3 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

 I too thought of Nosferatu! I wondered how intentional that was. Love your observation that this is a shadow of his former self.

I've just noticed as well that the first scene with Manuel has a wide shot where there is a reflection of him in the glass of the car he's working on.  But the reflection is almost a perfect representation of him, down to the orientation.  It's such a self-conscious shot (27:30) and mirrors are so key to vampire mythology that I feel like the counterpoint must have been deliberate.

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Or does she mean that she would break up with Jimmy? Again, why? Because he would force the cessation of the con against Howard? Was she so fixated on destroying Howard at that moment that she would break up her marriage to do so? As wild a thought as that is, it seems more likely than Jimmy leaving her in that scenario.

This may sound kind of dopey and obvious, but I wonder, given the flashback with her mother, if the scamming isn't some kind of love language for Kim. She sees it as a way of pleasing the one she loves and is afraid that if she doesn't have that she won't have a way of connecting to that person. So, as a preemptive strike, feeling their connection is gone, she would break up with Jimmy. The scamming IS the relationship for her, her way of both showing and receiving love. I dunno. Just a thought.

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

But actually what interests me most is the end of the following sequence when you see Mike's shadow hanging like Nosferatu.  It's a really ugly piece of imagery showing how Mike is presented as literally a shadow of his former self.

Great observation.

[scenario]

Kim and Jimmy left evidence of their crimes at HHM. But HHM is in the process of being dismantled. Half the employees are being laid off. All the important files are being copied and the extra computers are being wiped and sold off. 

One thread that they left behind is the incorrect phone number.

"How did this number change?"

"I don't know. Jane probably did it." 

"Can I talk to Jane?"

"She was laid off. I have no idea where she went. Last I heard she was thinking about moving back home to Wisconsin or was it Ohio. I can't remember."

Over time the evidence is blowing in the wind even if Howard's wife suspects something, much of the evidence pointing to Jimmy and Kim is gone. 

[Lalo Lives]

6 hours ago, scenario said:

Look at it like a someone who knew Kim might think.

Kim is a workaholic. She's been working for 60,70 or more hours a week for years. She fairly recently was seriously injured when she fell asleep at the wheel and crashed her car because of her working long hours. 

Around that time, she changed her goals. She was sick of working for corporations, slowly killing herself to make rich people richer. So she switched to defending poor people. 

Around that time she married her long time boyfriend but the marriage wasn't working out. 

She had two mentors at HHM, Howard and Chuck. The stress got to Chuck years ago. He was seriously mentally ill and ended up killing himself.  She saw that the stress to Howard was getting to him also. Behind the happy face was a man whose marriage was disintegrating and was turning to drugs. She had seen it but hadn't told anyone and she felt guilty about that.

She's getting disillusioned with working for the poor. For every downtrodden victim she's helping there are 10 criminals she's helping to victimize more people. She still wanted to help but wasn't sure if it was worth it to her. 

Then her other mentor, Howard killed himself. It was partly her fault. Her two mentors both had failed marriages and both killed themselves. Her marriage is failing. She's on the same treadmill that killed them. She had to get off the treadmill or she'd be the one killing herself in a few years.  

Kim had a midlife crisis which has happened to many people. Howard's suicide was the last straw. (As an outsider would see it.)

This ALSO WORKS!

[PeterPirate]

4 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree that this is a difficult one.

This is my first attempt at an interpretation, but I'm open to be convinced otherwise.

If you go back to 510, Jimmy really does sound ready to break up.  He asks Kim "am I bad for you?" and the fact that she quotes back the line makes absolutely clear this was a seminal moment for her.  Jimmy knows he's let Lalo into their lives and he later admits it's just "this time" - he won't change and he will slip up again.  She convinced him not to go home and to stay at the hotel.  She's a smart lady - Jimmy sees himself as toxic (and, let's face it, he's not wrong) and so a next logical step especially with the threat of Lalo is to force a break-up.

She acts, as she so often does, reflexively.  The Howard motif comes immediately after the "this time" conversation.  I still think she was not going after Howard because fundamentally she dislikes Howard.  I don't think she has much love for the guy but as Howard himself said in 607, there were no serious motives.  But overall I think she was indifferent to him.  But she needed a way to keep Jimmy and so she chooses a scam that they can both get on board with - Jimmy because it plays on (and indeed furthers) his existing resentment and she because, as Vince Gilligan likes to say, the juice is worth the squeeze in terms of her pro bono business.  The times they're closest are where they scam together and the times they're driven apart is when they (usually Jimmy) scam separately so there is some credibility to this.  She even matches the finger guns and challenges his preconceptions with "wouldn't I?" -- all to keep Jimmy in the relationship.

What's fascinating about this is we've always seem Jimmy's deep insecurities but by S5 they've really evaporated.  He doesn't need an office to prove Kim's love - they have marriage vows.  But Kim, who from the flashbacks with her hot-and-cold, unreliable mother, has seemingly never had that kind of devoted love in her life.

In 510, when Howard confronts Kim with what Jimmy has been doing, she knows that he is on a destructive course that she can't control and that does no good.  There are dark issues there that they need to face, that Jimmy refused to deal with in therapy, that Jimmy has never discussed (until, ironically, he talks about his jealousy over Howard to Cheryl Hamlin and Rhea Seehorn plays that reaction magnificently - it's like she's been kicked in the guts that now he can open up about this terrible wound).  So she presents a scam they can both get invested in that keeps them together.

This then is the reason for the 606 U-turn.  If she was not involved in the execution of the plan, not only would she lose control of it, but it would cease to be an achievement they have together and it would separate them.  A pro bono practice might be everything she wants in a career sense and she often talks as though her career is her centre, describing a career win as the best day of her life.  But really, and perhaps on some level even she can't fully enunciate as emotionally repressed as she is, it's love of Jimmy.   This opportunity would take her away from Jimmy and lead to their break-up and that's unconscionable.

I'll have to look back to see if it tracks but I certainly feel it's a stronger explanation than Howard's assumptions in 607 (although some of those were pretty accurate, considering).

I pretty much agree with this.  I think Kim's primary motivation in pushing the Howard scam was to avoid answering Jimmy's question.  Because, obviously, the answer was Yes.  Because of her association with Jimmy, she became a criminal.  And not just any ordinary criminal.  Una Amiga del Cartel.  Had the scam been stopped and she was forced to face that fact, she would have had to run away.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by PeterPirate

[PeterPirate]

Here is an absolutely awesome essay about the episode.  

He made the following observations that were new to me:

1.  The new trash can represented the Saul persona.  
2.  Kim's "You were his wife" words to Cheryl were just as applicable to herself.
3.  In the end, Jimmy became his brother, a man with nothing but his work.  

There's a lot more, and it's a great but melancholy take.  

***** 

Also, I posted the question about why Kim thought they would break-up to Courtney's video, and she replied:

Quote

Jimmy would have broken up with her. He was about to at the end of Season 5 in the hotel room after Lalo paid them that visit and he asked if he was bad for her. I think Kim came up with the Howard scheme in part as a way to cheer Jimmy up and to save the relationship. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

18 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

The scamming IS the relationship for her, her way of both showing and receiving love.

I don't know if it's a love language exactly, but it has been shown a few times that it is a sexual turn-on for her. She said to Jimmy that she had the time of her life and loves him but so what. Love and fun have now been superseded by the harm they inflict on others together. After seeing Howard shot in the head in front of her, she would not get the same fun and turn-on from ruining people. That response might be extinguished.

[peeayebee]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Here is an absolutely awesome essay about the episode.  

He made the following observations that were new to me:

1.  The new trash can represented the Saul persona.  
2.  Kim's "You were his wife" words to Cheryl were just as applicable to herself.
3.  In the end, Jimmy became his brother, a man with nothing but his work.  

There's a lot more, and it's a great but melancholy take.  

Thanks for posting that. Very good. One aside: I ended up "watching" this video with my eyes closed. The video itself was distracting to me, and I found the narration difficult to follow. I've found that with Pete Pepper's videos, too. Too monotone or something. Courtney's, on the other hand, are very "user-friendly."

In addition to the observations you highlighted, there were a few things this guy says that struck me:

"Saul needs the constant chatter of work in his ear to make sure he never gets a chance to think about what he's lost."

We see the final moments of the main characters' humanity. Of course there's Jimmy turning completely into Saul. Then there's Mike, believing he is different from the rest of the cartel guys, then being told by Manuel that he's not. 

And Gus. As the guy in the video says, we see the closest thing to humanity in him in the bar scene, but he chooses to walk away, despite his huge win at Eladio's pool. He still wants to pursue revenge.

(I would add that, in my view, Kim chooses to try to save her humanity.)

The videographer also cites a scene betw Chuck and Jimmy where Chuck tells him to stop with the sad faces and empty words and just embrace who you are. Yup. That's what he does.

BTW, I just noticed that Manuel says his final words to Mike in Spanish. "You gangsters and your justice. You're all the same." Mike had told him his Spanish wasn't very good, so I wonder if Mike understood. I think he generally got the gist of it, but it's curious the writer had Manuel deliver these parting words in Spanish.