The Bear Season 1-2 Talk

[aghst]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:27 PM, ichbin said:

Season 2, Episode 6...yikes! First it was a case of wondering who was going to walk in next..and then came the Emmy submissions.  Intense!

Just watched this episode.  All these actors known for other roles just took me out of the show.

Of course these are other FX or Hulu stalwarts or buddies of the creator, who had Ramy Yousef direct an episode, from their association on that show.

It just makes you aware that the first season was a phenomenon and so all the FX friends wanted to take part in season 2 in some way?

Not that the performances weren't great but not sure if this isn't mostly a standalone episode.  Yes it illuminates Carmy, Richie and Natalie's back stories, shows what kind of crazy, chaotic, emotionally exhausting milieu they came from.

I guess they're all suppose to be survivors of chaos or maybe they thrive despite the chaos or because  of it.  Death of Mikey hangs over Carmy but their mother was something as well.

However, it still seems like the episode was written to work in all these other stars who were interested in appearing on the show.

The main things I learned are that Carmy went to train in Copenhagen and was the great chef that Luka, the guy who was teaching Marcus, couldn't match up to.

So Carmy got his friends at Noma to train Marcus for that trip and it was cousin Michelle (Sarah Paulson) who got Camry the hell out of Chicago, probably helped him get gigs in NY and become the Michelin chef.

As dysfunctional as the family is, that is why it's harder to understand why Camry comes back to take over the sandwich place and now is building his restaurant.

How did Mikey, who never finishes anything, put aside that much money?

[ichbin]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

How did Mikey, who never finishes anything, put aside that much money?

I thought it was from the money he had borrowed from Uncle Jimmy. 

[blixie]

What is the 'thing' Francine Fak did!!!! I loved that even Fak got an arch helping host FOTH. Matty Matheson is so good in this role.

An absolutely beautiful season of television, I never expected to cry so many times, Richie sing TSwift in the car, Pete's heart breaking over Donna and Natalie. The I laughed really hard when Alex Moffat as Josh was caught smoking meth and claimed it kept him sharp. Just a perfect season of television.

 

[paramitch]

One thing in case it helps others from throughout the thread -- Christopher Storer gave an interview to IndieWire about the S1 finale that really answered a bunch of questions about how the tomato-can-money worked. He also confirmed that it was the loan from Jimmy that was mutually beneficial -- it would help Mikey (who was trying to save up to franchise or transform the restaurant with Carmy later on), and also help launder money for Jimmy. But Mike's addiction and mental illness led him to abandon believing he could do it, so he left his dream for Carmy to take on.

Meanwhile, Storer specifically addresses the biggest question people had -- how the tomato-can-money  got there and the believability of it:

There is a semi-automatic electric can-seamer at the restaurant, which is a quick process and very easy to use. Michael was most likely instructed to not put the money in the bank for myriad tax reasons. In his scattered state, the processing of the tomato cans really felt like he was starting to build something, felt more like a real plan of action to him. A safe felt too safe, too obvious.

I know it sounds completely absurd, but in researching various kitchens, I was really shocked how many stories and articles I had come across or heard about where money or drugs were found in sealed aluminum tomato cans. I guess the police dogs can’t smell anything over the acidic tomatoes and I definitely think Michael had heard some version of that somewhere.

This was really interesting and -- hey, it works for me. I'm fine with it.

16 hours ago, aghst said:

Just watched this episode.  All these actors known for other roles just took me out of the show.

Of course these are other FX or Hulu stalwarts or buddies of the creator, who had Ramy Yousef direct an episode, from their association on that show.

It just makes you aware that the first season was a phenomenon and so all the FX friends wanted to take part in season 2 in some way?

Not that the performances weren't great but not sure if this isn't mostly a standalone episode.  Yes it illuminates Carmy, Richie and Natalie's back stories, shows what kind of crazy, chaotic, emotionally exhausting milieu they came from.

I'm divided on the celebrity-stuffed episode 6. I do think it was a beautifully acted, if very painful and unpleasant, stressful episode that deftly showed how Carmy, Mike, Richie, and Sugar/Nat all ended up the people they are today.

But I would agree that there is a "showiness" to the casting that did take me out of it a little. I kept thinking, "That's Sarah Paulson! That's Jamie Lee Curtis! That's Bob Odenkirk!" etc., just a little.

However, evidently Storer did it that way as a kind of shorthand -- because there were so many characters and family members in that episode, he cast it with a bunch of familiar faces so we would know who they all were much, much faster, and I agree that on this front, it did work. I was never confused about who was who (although at first I thought Bob Odenkirk was their Dad, not Uncle Lee -- oops).

I'm still divided on it. Part of me does feel that it was a little "look how many people love our show now!" that wasn't really necessary. And the entire episode is my least favorite of the season, although I appreciate what we learned from it about these people.

The irony is, I did very much love the "celebrity casting" in episodes 4 and 7, and thought both Will Poulter in 4 and Olivia Colman in 7 were absolutely lovely, unshowy, and quietly generous in their performances -- never pulling focus from the other regular show actors.

13 hours ago, ichbin said:

I thought it was from the money he had borrowed from Uncle Jimmy. 

It was. Most of the "tomato money" came directly from Jimmy's loan to Mikey, set aside in small increments to hide/wash the cash, and in $5k increments that were easier to hide on multiple fronts.

Edited June 29, 2023 by paramitch
fixed URL

[Catfi9ht]

I've been thinking about this show alot since finishing season 2 especially in reference to my own fucked up childhood. One of my favorite writers' strike picket signs sums this season up nicely.

The character-driven writing in this show is so good. I didn't rewatch season 1 before watching season 2 and I probably should have. So I rewatched both seasons 1 and 2 again. Here are some thoughts.

Notable Callbacks I Saw During Season 1 Rewatch

• Fak describing Richie. he's a nice guy; he's just sad inside.
• Carmen giving Tina his knife was a callback to episode 1 when Tina hid Carmen's knife as payback for changing things.

I realized the actor who plays Richie was the hacker in The Punisher. Between this show, The Punisher, and Andor, he's really shown he has range. I'm super impressed.
This show and The Punisher have some of the most realistic group counseling scenes I've watched. Obviously, the shows come at trauma from very different angles, but they're both very deep and real when showing what some folks go through.

Didn't know what a chaos menu was so I looked it up and found this article: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2023/06/23/the-bear-chaos-menu-meaning-and-recipes-food-anarchy-explained/ 
"Chaos cooking is a term used to define a combination of ingredients that don’t typically go together in a cohesive dish, but that can have surprisingly positive results.
It can be thought of as a more aggressive take on classic ‘fusion’ cuisine with an emphasis on taking food less seriously, finding hidden gems, and giving customers a unique experience."
There are also recipe examples and ideas which helped me understand the definition better.

I think the crux of Carmen's and Sydney's issues are they have opposite communication styles. Sydney has paralysis by overcommunication and Carmen undercommunicates so his motives are misunderstood. Carmen should have given her more details about bailing on food tasting to let her know it was a friend that needed help during a specific time. Sydney should have understood the walls needed to come down because of rotting and mold which was a necessity and not really a decision point she and Carmen needed to discuss.

I'm in a very different place in my life regarding work-life balance. It's family ALWAYS comes first. I work to keep a roof over my head and my family fed. I don't owe work anything. I'm lucky enough to be able to leave jobs that don't share my philosophy and currently have an employer that believes family comes first too. I really can't relate to Carmen believing he let everyone down because he forgot to get the fridge handle fixed. Accidents/mistakes will happen and he has a crew that can pick up the slack when shit happens. That's a GOOD THING. He and Sydney built that; there's nothing to freak out about. If this show is trying to say that Carmen hanging out with Claire is a bad thing, I don't agree. What I do think it's trying to show is Carmen self-sabotaging because he's ALWAYS used to bad things happening because something good happens in his life. I don't think Claire or Carmen did anything wrong by hanging out together and letting Carmen have a life outside of work. We've seen how having stable companions benefits the Berzattos like Natalie having Paul.
 

On 6/27/2023 at 11:31 AM, aghst said:

Then Sydney pitched the idea of having dinner service, with fancier menu items, to Carmy.  Then they found the money so I guess Carmy decided to get back into the fine dining game again.

The restaurant change isn't only Sydney's idea. In season 1, Sydney presents a business plan that shows the restaurant could make more money if they switch to a dinner menu at dinner instead of serving sandwiches and their other lunch items all day. Carmen agrees. They decide on high end dining because of the other restaurants in the area are higher end at night. They both decide to change the restaurant after they find the money in the cans. They were only going to use the money in the cans, but then Natalie put a business plan together and the costs were higher than what they had. That's why they asked Jimmy for more money. They needed the money in the cans (about $330k) and an additional 500k because the place was such a wreck. The higher end restaurant may have been Sydney's suggestion, but Carmen agrees at multiple points it's a good idea that would ensure the restaurant stayed open.

With regards to the expenses for Marcus and Richie, Carmen called in favors for them to stage at those restaurants. In an earlier episode, Sydney asks if Carmen still had miles, and in the Christmas episode, Carmen mentions living on a boat in Denmark. Based on this information, the experiences for Richie and Marcus didn't cost the restaurant anything. They don't mention about the cost of the cooking schools, but it looked like those programs were only a few weeks while the restaurant was closed so it didn't seem unbelievable to me they could afford them. 

Marcus is such a sweet person. My heart goes out to him and those missed phone calls about his mom in the last episode. I hope he's had enough time to come to terms with her passing. It's one of those things though; you never know until it happens.

As someone with Italian family members, it's so nice to see Italian folks who aren't obsessed with mafia culture. My family abhors Italian-Americans' obsession with mafia shows and culture. I'm so glad these folks are not Jersey shore caricatures and more like real people.

I wish we got to see more of the amazing personality everyone says Mikey has. He's been able to surround himself by all these people that loved him and talk about how amazing and cool he was. The scenes we've seen him in, he acts like Richie so I don't get all the love for him. I get why he and Richie were best friends, but I don't get this magnetism everyone says he had when they talk about him. The characters in this show are SO great; that's really the only very tiny nitpick I have.

[Hanahope]

So trying to place Noma and Copenhagen in the timeline and figure out the connections.

We know Carmie used to work with Chef Terry.  Was the Noma sous-chef shown in Forks the same chef who we saw yelling/berating Carmie in S1?  or was that chef from another restaurant?  they looked similar to me and the Noma sous-chef certainly showed he could yell at the staff about 'the smudge.'

did chef Luca also work at Noma or with chef terry at the same time as Carmie?  otherwise, why was the photo of Carmie and Luca at Noma?  How otherwise did Luka and Carmie meet? 

Carmie also went to Copenhagen.  Is that where they met?  or did Carmie go to Copenhagen first, and then told Luca about it? or vice versa, because how did Carmie learn about Copenhagen?  does luca own the boathouse or another person that Carmie somehow met?

 

[blixie]

Quote

If this show is trying to say that Carmen hanging out with Claire is a bad thing, I don't agree.

I don't think they are saying it's bad emotionally for Carmy, but that it is kind of bad for Sydney, because the stakes are different for them vis a vis The Bear as a going concern. Carmy is a name chef so part of me is bit irritated that he goes to Jimmy because with his connections he could almost certainly find funding elsewhere, Sydney doesn't have the same cache, and this will be the second time she's tried to make a business happen. As a white man with a name reputation and widely respected and young black woman who is trying to make a name for herself, they simply can't ever be truly equal partners in terms of what they risk.

I don't think he let everyone down but he did fail Sydney often but your right it's not really about Claire, it's about Carmy's issues with communicating and managing things. I suspect he could of just as easily stood her up or not fixed the fridge w/o Claire in the picture and worth noting I don't think Sydney's believes that was the reason either. It's Carmy making that wrong connection, instead of as Richie pointing out the generational trauma that affects all his relationships, that we inherit behavior patterns for good and ill from those who raised us. I really liked the note that a man who has tried to fight the "chaos" of his familial life, was against a chaos menu.

[blixie]

Quote

Was the Noma sous-chef shown in Forks the same chef who we saw yelling/berating Carmie in S1?  or was that chef from another restaurant?  they looked similar to me and the Noma sous-chef certainly showed he could yell at the staff about 'the smudge.'

I'm not sure what your asking the chef who yelled at Carmie in S1 was a head chef and was played by Joel McHale and I believe that was supposed to be French Laundry/Keller, but I guess could have been a sous of Keller. The chef who yelled about the smudge worked for Terry at her place and I'm not sure we had seen him before. 

My sense is that Terry's place was where he and Will Poulter worked together first they both went to Noma and then Carmie moved to French Laundry while Poulter stayed in Copenhagen.

[aghst]

7 hours ago, paramitch said:

I'm still divided on it. Part of me does feel that it was a little "look how many people love our show now!" that wasn't really necessary. And the entire episode is my least favorite of the season, although I appreciate what we learned from it about these people.

The irony is, I did very much love the "celebrity casting" in episodes 4 and 7, and thought both Will Poulter in 4 and Olivia Colman in 7 were absolutely lovely, unshowy, and quietly generous in their performances -- never pulling focus from the other regular show actors.

I feel it did pull focus from the regular cast.  No Sydney, no Marcus, none of the other regular actors were in this episode since it was a flashback.

That's fine, the other cast are featured enough.  But I'm not so sure that the actors playing Carmy and Richie hold up in scenes with the more well-known actors.

Olivia Colman was great but she's overkill.  I think Richie had been converted by the time he ran into her peeling those mushrooms.  Another way to show that real actors loved the show.

 

[aghst]

2 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

The restaurant change isn't only Sydney's idea. In season 1, Sydney presents a business plan that shows the restaurant could make more money if they switch to a dinner menu at dinner instead of serving sandwiches and their other lunch items all day. Carmen agrees. They decide on high end dining because of the other restaurants in the area are higher end at night. They both decide to change the restaurant after they find the money in the cans. They were only going to use the money in the cans, but then Natalie put a business plan together and the costs were higher than what they had. That's why they asked Jimmy for more money. They needed the money in the cans (about $330k) and an additional 500k because the place was such a wreck. The higher end restaurant may have been Sydney's suggestion, but Carmen agrees at multiple points it's a good idea that would ensure the restaurant stayed open.

With regards to the expenses for Marcus and Richie, Carmen called in favors for them to stage at those restaurants. In an earlier episode, Sydney asks if Carmen still had miles, and in the Christmas episode, Carmen mentions living on a boat in Denmark. Based on this information, the experiences for Richie and Marcus didn't cost the restaurant anything. They don't mention about the cost of the cooking schools, but it looked like those programs were only a few weeks while the restaurant was closed so it didn't seem unbelievable to me they could afford them. 

I didn't rewatch so my recollection of how they came to decide to do a fine dining place.

But the Original Beef was mostly a lunch place for local customers from a working-class neighborhood.  They attracted some customers from other parts of the city, because of the rep it had, people who were willing to deal with the traffic to get there.

For this high-end place, they're going to have to attract affluent clients from other parts of the city.  Maybe when high end restaurants open with chefs who had the reputation that Carmy has, people would come anyways, including from other parts of the country or even the world.

I don't go to fine dining places so I don't know, I know there are some hardcore fans who save up or have so much money that they can chase these places with great reps, even if they're sometimes hard to reach.

I would trust that the writers did the research so maybe fine dining restaurants in working class neighborhoods aren't as rare as one might think.

That place where Richie worked, they boasted of having a 5000 people waiting list and if people drop out, they send a car to fetch people next down on the waiting list.

I don't know if that's a real thing, if there are people who are ready to drop whatever plans they may have to go to some place where they will spend hundreds or thousands on a meal.

Or if 3 Michelin stars means the entire staff is obsessive, has drunk the Kool Aid.

It's entertaining episode but not sure how real the scene it depicts is.

[aghst]

Not saying it doesn't happen.

But those people have a weird hobby or passion.

Or too much money.

Or both.

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, blixie said:

I'm not sure what your asking the chef who yelled at Carmie in S1 was a head chef and was played by Joel McHale and I believe that was supposed to be French Laundry/Keller, but I guess could have been a sous of Keller. The chef who yelled about the smudge worked for Terry at her place and I'm not sure we had seen him before. 

My sense is that Terry's place was where he and Will Poulter worked together first they both went to Noma and then Carmie moved to French Laundry while Poulter stayed in Copenhagen.

ok, maybe i have my restaurant names mixed up.  and ok, the chef in "forks" is not the chef that yelled at Carmie in S1 at a high end restaurant (and i don't know either restaurants' names - i thought chicago was noma, but maybe i'm wrong).

so the chicago restaurant in forks is where Richie worked for a week (or so), and had the photo of Carmie and Luca.  Luca is now in Copenhagen working at some restaurant and i don't know the name.  

i am still wondering how the photo of Carmie and Luca came to hang in the Chicago restaurant in Forks.  did both carmie and luca work for Chef Terry in chicago, or somewhere else?  did Chef terry previously have a restaurant or work in Copenhagen and that's where they all met?

[buttersister]

My sense was that Carm and Luca worked together (at Chef Terry's?) and that Carm was the chef Luca referred to when telling Marcus that he'd thought he was hot shit until he worked with someone who was (Carm) and it sent him on his way towards humility and hard work. Lovely episode.

Quote

I don't get this magnetism everyone says he had when they talk about him.

I think casting Jon Bernthal was meant to be a shortcut for showing more of that.

[Catfi9ht]

13 minutes ago, buttersister said:

I think casting Jon Bernthal was meant to be a shortcut for showing more of that.

I'd love to see it! I know he's more than capable. 

[blixie]

Quote

did both carmie and luca work for Chef Terry in chicago, or somewhere else?

Chef Terry is fictional as is the restaurant she owns, in the show called Ever. French Laundry and Noma are real restaurants, Noma is in Copenhagen, that's why the show is vague about specifics re: who McHale was playing, they insinuate Luca and Marcus are working in a Noma but it's not clear that's the case it's possible Luca has opened his own place in Denmark. The photo in Ever implies Luca/Carmy worked together at Ever in Chicago, we also know Carmy worked in Copenhagen and Luca is still there. I think it's reasonable to assume they both worked at Ever and then moved to Noma. Then went separate ways when Carmy was tapped for French Laundry where he was screamed at by Joel McHale. I don't think it matters much in the scheme of anything narratively so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Worth noting though that while the industry is notoriously riddled with bad apples in kitchens, I have not heard anything bad about either Thomas Keller or Redzepi being tyranical and in fact seem pretty chill even given Noma's vibe even monastic.

[MsNewsradio]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Not saying it doesn't happen.

But those people have a weird hobby or passion.

Or too much money.

Or both.

My friend and I ate at what was then the number one restaurant in the world a few years ago. It took strategy to plot out how to get a reservation, as they only released them a few months ahead of schedule and had minimal seating (I think 12 tables total in the restaurant, with only two seatings each day). We’ve also taken the time to eat at quite a few Michelin starred restaurants when we travel. The staff at all of them have been extremely dedicated to service - like the show says, every day is their Super Bowl. 

We have neither a weird passion or hobby, nor are rolling in money. We saved specifically for those experiences, and some of them weren’t actually that expensive (Michelin starred restaurants don’t *always* equate to insanely expensive - a lot of times, yes, but not always). We balanced those once-in-a-lifetime meals with far more economical choices for our other meals when traveling. 

While it may not be your thing, I don’t think you need to go so far as to disparage those for whom it is an interest. I personally don’t understand why a person would want to go on a cruise, for example, but different strokes for different folks. To take a line from Amy Poehler “Good for them - not for me”.

I enjoyed this season so much more than season one (and I enjoyed that season quite a bit). Was really great to see characters get fleshed out more. Looking forward to what comes next!

[aghst]

5 minutes ago, MsNewsradio said:

 

While it may not be your thing, I don’t think you need to go so far as to disparage those for whom it is an interest. I personally don’t understand why a person would want to go on a cruise, for example, but different strokes for different folks. To take a line from Amy Poehler “Good for them - not for me”.

Sorry if I offended.

Just the whole ritualistic and sybaritic depictions have Satyricon vibes, excesses  of a decaying empire -- in the episode where Sydney goes to taste all these restaurants in one day, you wonder if she's purging in between these tastings, just as wine connoisseurs are tasting and then spitting out several different types of wines in a day, as in Drops of God.

Yes anyone's inclinations can look odd to others.

Most people can obviously enjoy food without it being prepared by some pedigreed chef or delivered with the kind of obsessive dedication shown in the episode.

But more power to those who do enjoy such experiences.

 

[Hanahope]

I didn't think sydney was eating at all those restaurants in one day.  i took it to cover like a week or at least several days.  

I don't know if i'll ever get to an official star restaurant, though i'd like to try it once for the experience.  but my husband is definitely not one to spend $$$$.  the best i might be able to do is convince him to go to Gordon Ramsay Steak in AC when our youngest daughter graduates high school because she is a huge fan and is begging for that to be her graduation gift. 

[Baltimore Betty]

3 hours ago, MsNewsradio said:

My friend and I ate at what was then the number one restaurant in the world a few years ago

OMG! What restaurant was it? If you are wondering which side of the fence I am on for this issue, it is yours!  

I am sad that Carmy is trying to make a high end restaurant, the type of place where it became unhealthy for him to work in, the pressure was insane as we saw in a flashback last season, I wish he had gone in a different direction.

[MsNewsradio]

15 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

OMG! What restaurant was it? If you are wondering which side of the fence I am on for this issue, it is yours!  

It was Osteria Francescana in Modena, Italy. (And it was worth every penny…absolutely phenomenal meal)!

[Daisychain]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:32 AM, peeayebee said:

Loved Tina's karaoke performance. Wow, what a beautiful voice. And of course it was wonderful to see her grow and excel in the kitchen.

This is a very pertinent point that we haven't expressed enough on this board.  It was gorgeous to hear her sing so lovely.  And her colleagues loved it also, and then she realized they were her friends.  She had new friends.  It was wonderful.  

I have been rewatching Season 1 and Tina was in no way a charmer - remember when she just shat up the temp on Sydney's (sauce, I don't recall if it was anything else?)  Anyhow Tina just reached over and yanked the temp up to high.  Same fear of change and of the future that all of the characters (and most of us have), writ LARGE.  Happy she got to the next step through effort and insight.

Fun - I have been divorced only recently, but my ex and I went together a few years ago to Alinea in Chicago.  We got tickets because it was Lollapalooza in the city and other people cancelled.  We had such a good time.  My ex-spouse, a good friend, would be happy to have a piece of salmon and sweet potato once a night for the rest of his life.  So I met him outside and said "there are no substitutions, don't embarrass me."  Nice, right?  (no, not nice.) But he threw himself into the experience and only stuttered on the mushrooms course, which he really doesn't care for.  We got to dessert which was a candy balloon filled with Bubble-Yum Bubble-Gum helium gas and he went straight for it, proclaiming at the top of the male vocal range, "This is just like my gum from my paper route!" Adorbs.  Anyhoo, isn't that what the frozen chocolate banana would do, ultimately?

[meep.meep]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:26 PM, blixie said:

What is the 'thing' Francine Fak did!!!! I loved that even Fak got an arch helping host FOTH. Matty Matheson is so good in this role.

An absolutely beautiful season of television, I never expected to cry so many times, Richie sing TSwift in the car, Pete's heart breaking over Donna and Natalie. The I laughed really hard when Alex Moffat as Josh was caught smoking meth and claimed it kept him sharp. Just a perfect season of television.

 

Fak gave Claire Carmy's real cell phone number.  I loved that line from him.

I loved this season.  The second season is rarely better than the first, but they pulled it off.  Wish they could have more than one Jon Bernthal flashback though.

Why does Claire call Richie "cousin"?

[Emmeline]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:45 PM, Tom Holmberg said:

I must have it on my beef sandwiches.  I believe that last season they were making their own.

[Tom Holmberg]

15 minutes ago, Emmeline said:

I must have it on my beef sandwiches.  I believe that last season they were making their own.

Yes gardiniera is my go-to Italian beef topping.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Why does Claire call Richie "cousin"?

I just assumed "cousin" can be a term for someone not related that you're close to, same as calling someone "Uncle" who is not your uncle. Am I wrong or is Richie not really a cousin of Carmy's?

[Daisychain]

Yes PAB, when I went back to the Season 1, I think Richie and Carmy are not cousins by blood, only by the heart.  I just don't know about Claire and Richie, whether they are actually related or not.

[Catfi9ht]

1 hour ago, Emmeline said:

I must have it on my beef sandwiches.  I believe that last season they were making their own.

Easily the best sandwich I've ever had in my life. Al's Italian Beef hot and dipped.

[Tom Holmberg]

33 minutes ago, Catfi9ht said:

Easily the best sandwich I've ever had in my life. Al's Italian Beef hot and dipped.

Then an Italian Lemonade at Mario's across the street.

[aghst]

Finished the season.  Heard David Chang discuss it, how the chaos is true to real life in serious restaurants.

One member of the crew dropping out to smoke crack could disrupt the whole operation.

Family and Friends nights are rehearsals and one thing to look for is to see who deals well under pressure.  In the finale, Syd kind of crumbled under pressure and Richie saved the day but according to Chang, it doesn't mean it will always be that way.

But I guess this season established the cousin as a key member of the restaurant, not someone looking to find his role.

 

They did a 9-course menu but those T-bone platters seemed huge.  That can't be for one person nor could it be one out of nine courses per diner, could it?

If it's a menu, why was that printer going off with individual orders which Syd was trying to organize?  Pretty much everyone is suppose to have the same set of dishes with a few choices, like for desert and entrees?

And maybe substitutes for people with food allergies?

 

Also have to wonder about the business model.  Natalie said they were booked full for the first week but not the second week and they didn't have a waiting list or the possibility of substituting guests if some of the ones with reservations couldn't make their reservation.

Would they commit as much money as they have to renovate, train, develop extensive menus without some kind of confidence of being able to fill the restaurant for a few weeks at least?  Then again Syd walked by a place that she had visited, so it looks like some of these places with great culinary reps can suddenly shut down.

Presumably, people would go because Carmy had the reputation and maybe some  customers of the Beef would also check out the place.

I guess they're not going to try to get the restaurant critics in there early, to generate demand.  So they're fully relying on word of mouth from the first diners?

Or did they have some publicist try to seed local papers with stories about a Michelin star chef opening a new place?  Maybe have a social media campaign just to create awareness.

Probably done off camera but if only the first week is booked full, that could point to problems ahead.

But in the first season, online ordering became too much of a hit, with that order printer going full tilt -- and it happened again on this episode, though not sure why, the restaurant didn't seem to have that many patrons and they were presumably having similar orders since it was a menu, not a la carte place.

They will be able to bring in income for however many seasons they want to keep the show on the air.  After all if this restaurant fails and the band breaks up, what would they depict on the show?

Carmy and Syd both get out of the restaurant business or she becomes a caterer, maybe reduced to going on reality TV cooking shows?

But if the chaos is what it's like all the time, you would think people would burn out and there's a lot of turnover, including maybe Carmy and Syd gradually moving away from daily hands-on roles.

The other place Richie worked at didn't show chaos.  They were suppose to be a well-oiled machine but how long can staff there drink the Kool Aid?

The junior staff, unless they have a path to get promoted and make more money, would leave for other jobs so maybe the guy who trained Richie would move on in a couple of years.

[callie lee 29]

Carmy's reputation would bring me in, at least initially. He may not have gotten the Michelin stars but he didn't lose them. And it sounds like he's got a really solid cred in the foodie/chef world. 

 

Good service would keep me, though. I can't remember if it was the forks episode or Syds episode but whoever emphasized the importance on front of house they are not lying. I've continued to go to a lot of places that are over priced with mediocre food because the service is fucking outstanding. 

[possibilities]

 

34 minutes ago, aghst said:

If it's a menu, why was that printer going off with individual orders which Syd was trying to organize?  Pretty much everyone is suppose to have the same set of dishes with a few choices, like for desert and entrees?

I thought that might have been Syd having flashbacks to the disaster last season, but it seemed like the fancy place Richie went in Forks also had receipts, so maybe they have a menu but there are tweaks, like little special things such as the chocolate banana, and allergies, and they all know the friends and family preferences. Plus, the tables were starting on a staggered schedule, so she also had to keep track of how many were up and what stage they were at in the meal.

Edited June 30, 2023 by possibilities

[peeayebee]

Yes, I was thrown at first by the ticket printer, but I figured it was, like you said, Sydney having PTSD-like flashbacks.

 

2 hours ago, Daisychain said:

Yes PAB, when I went back to the Season 1, I think Richie and Carmy are not cousins by blood, only by the heart.  I just don't know about Claire and Richie, whether they are actually related or not.

I assume they aren't related, just that they've known each other since childhood.

 

[Daisychain]

@Tom Holmberg, @Emmeline, that youtube was insane and I want it all.  However, I'm a terrible, bad baker so I think I will try the sandwich bread recipe first. (I don't mean that to sound like portents of doom, it just seemed do-able, right?)

[qtpye]

On 6/25/2023 at 9:16 AM, paramitch said:

Wow. I loved season 1, but for me, season 2 blew it out of the water. This season, even more than last season, was about all of the characters, and I loved that so much. Loved how we got the longer season and so many bigger moments for not just Carmy, but for everyone.

Season 2 is amazingly brilliant.

The characters are so bruised and beautiful.

It has been a long time since I have been excited about a show like this.

[qtpye]

Spoilers for S2 E7

I thought Richie was the weakest part of season 1.

I did not understand why this tall good looking charming guy was so tough to be around. I hated the way he bullied people.

This episode made me really feel for the guy. He finally understood what true passion meant.

I loved the restaurant and found the workings absolutely fascinating.

Richie's ex made me feel more during the few minutes she was on this episode than the actress ever did in her whole run during Community.

The directors are geniuses in the way they seem to be able to get top-notch performances out of all the actors.

 

 

[Baltimore Betty]

I love this series, I really do. The controlled chaos in the kitchen was like a ballet. I have worked in kitchens and it can get tense and the personalities of chefs can be brutally nasty (but I learned to be patient with making a reduction thanks to a chef yelling at me, insert facial twitch from that experience) but the thing I have to call bullshit on is Carmy being locked inside a cooler, I have never been in a walk in that did not have an inside door handle.

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

Richie's ex made me feel more during the few minutes she was on this episode than the actress ever did in her whole run during Community.

YES! And yes to all the actors, they were outstanding, kudos to everyone.

Richie finding his purpose was everything, he will be a much happier person.

Not that anyone asked me but I find Carmy very sexy, just me?

I hope Claire understands the self loathing that Carmy has about his life and the huge amount of anxiety and self doubt he has to realize him saying those things while being locked in a walk in on opening night and giving up control to Syd was not really meant, it was just his mind trying to figure out how to deal in that moment.

9 hours ago, qtpye said:

The characters are so bruised and beautiful.

That is a perfect statement.

[peeayebee]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

Richie's ex made me feel more during the few minutes she was on this episode than the actress ever did in her whole run during Community.

The scene with Richie and Tiffany in bed (Christmas ep) was so sweet and tender. It was wonderful seeing Richie like this.

 

1 hour ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I have to call bullshit on is Carmy being locked inside a cooler, I have never been in a walk in that did not have an inside door handle.

Is it possible that the inner handle fell off when the outer one did?

[RoadFullOfPromise]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:25 PM, blixie said:

Chef Terry is fictional as is the restaurant she owns, in the show called Ever. French Laundry and Noma are real restaurants, Noma is in Copenhagen, that's why the show is vague about specifics re: who McHale was playing, they insinuate Luca and Marcus are working in a Noma but it's not clear that's the case it's possible Luca has opened his own place in Denmark.

Ever is very definitely real! I read some comment somewhere noting that the Chicago restaurants shown were stoked for the season to be released.

https://www.ever-restaurant.com
 

And Noma is in Copenhagen so that tracks, but French Laundry is in California and not NY, so is it supposed to be someone other than Thomas Keller and maybe an NYC restaurant?

[Baltimore Betty]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Is it possible that the inner handle fell off when the outer one did?

Well if it did then so much for the safety mechanism,

[IvySpice]

I can overlook the moments of implausibility in most of the episodes because the series does such a great job job with actors/characters and with depicting the spirit of different kitchens. Including, this season, home kitchens.

Spoiler

I loved the Shakespearean tragedy in the finale storylines for both Carmy and Marcus. Macbeth, you want to be king? You can achieve that, but it's a deal with the devil: you will lose your soul and then your life. The Bear crew achieved the opening-night triumph they fought and bled for, but at the cost of Carmy and Marcus sacrificing their connections to the loves of their lives. This is the price of pursuing your ambition to the bitter end.

*chef's kiss*

 

[Catfi9ht]

Loved this little snippet. 

 

[meep.meep]

5 hours ago, RoadFullOfPromise said:

 

And Noma is in Copenhagen so that tracks, but French Laundry is in California and not NY, so is it supposed to be someone other than Thomas Keller and maybe an NYC restaurant?

Keller has Per Se in Manhattan - with 3 Michelin stars.  The chef at Noma, Rene Redzepi, has a reputation for being really laid back, so probably not the model for the yeller.

I thought Richie was going to Alinea, but no Grant Achatz so I guess not.

[aghst]

I think Noma is closed or will shut down?

I thought they were known more for the weird things they grow and the unusual dishes they make out of them, not necessarily for service.

People apparently traveled to Denmark to visit that place.  And also Northern Spain, where there is a place that requires reservations months in advance, according to David Chang.

Chang also said there may be a bubble.  Lot on money being invested but will people always come?  He said especially mid level restaurants, between the mainstream places most people go to or order delivery from and the fine dining Michelin star types of places, may crash.

Thing is, if you travel to these places, there are plenty of other things worthy of your time than going to a world-famous restaurant.

I remember researching my trip to San Sebastian and there was one place which was about 30-60 minutes drive out of the city which had a very big reputation.

Even though I wasn't a foodie, I had good meals in San Sebastian without venturing far.  You could go do a tapas bar crawl, which they're famous for, but those bars were packed and the popular items quickly ran out.

So unless you're really into Michelin star dining, why would you spend your limited time during a trip to go way out of the way for a particular restaurant?

 

 

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

I think Noma is closed or will shut down?

I heard that as well. It's just too expensive to do everything as they want to do it.

 

[buttersister]

Quote

And also Northern Spain, where there is a place that requires reservations months in advance, according to David Chang.

Many, many months. El Bulli, Ferran Adria's Mecca to Modern Gastronomy, was in Northeast Spain. Aka, World's Best Chef/Restaurant, he ran an extraordinary and exacting kitchen that many famous chefs spent time in. He closed it in 2011--the house was full but he felt the need to move on. He's running a creative center currently, as he said, not creating dishes, but creators. 

[Johnny Dollar]

22 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Well if it did then so much for the safety mechanism,

In my admittedly limited experience with these contraptions, the inner handle is basically a panic-bar type device that is connected to the closing mechanism but not connected to the outer handle. These laws were put in place in the 1970’s when Greg and Bobby Brady almost froze to death in Sam the Butcher’s freezer. That moment still haunts me to this day. 

[pasdetrois]

I loved episode 2. The quiet coziness of Carmy and Sydney creating and cooking and getting to know each other in his kitchen. The sad encounter with Carmy's former love, and the regret (?) that White conveyed beautifully. The pain of watching Ebraheim struggle in culinary school. This broke my heart.

And we learn where The Bear gets its name.

White and Moss-Bachrach have those imperfect beautiful faces. The cinematographer could not resist a shot of White's brilliant blue eyes as he tilted his head down in the light.

[ombelico]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:32 AM, peeayebee said:

I like Claire, and I like her with Carmy, but I was kind of pissed off at how she was distracting him from his duties. I know she didn't do it intentionally, and his attention to her was completely understandable, esp since he had no real joy in his life. And this was his first girlfriend! Again, it's understandable that he would often be more focused on her than some other things in the restaurant.

I hope Claire is not completely out of his life. He needs happiness in his life.

Carmy being trapped in the cooler was a great move for the show to take. I certainly felt bad for him and wanted him to get out, but we got to see that they didn't even need him for their opening. Everyone rose to the occasion. As we saw in previous eps, everyone else had grown and improved and found happiness in their endeavors.

I don't think this is the end for Claire and Carmy. Of course she was hurt by what he said while in the freezer but given that she also works in a high-pressure field that requires long days and periods of intense focus, I think with a bit of time she would realize that Carmy was working out the pressure of one of the most intense evenings of his career, and dealing with issues that aren't really about her.

On 6/26/2023 at 12:52 PM, peeayebee said:

Well, I have to say I didn't think Alex Moffat was a good choice. I was interested when we first see him in the interview. I always liked him on SNL. But when he simply ended up being a somewhat comical drug user, I was disappointed and annoyed. I think a less familiar actor should have been cast as this guy.

Agreed - when he first showed up my brain went, "Where is this guy from before? Oh yeah, SNL..." which took me out of the show and in the end he didn't even have any real dialogue beyond saying how crack/meth makes him focus or whatever. 

I wonder if Donna's decision not to go into the restaurant shows that she's done some changing and growing since Mikey died. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by ombelico

[paramitch]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:26 PM, blixie said:

What is the 'thing' Francine Fak did!!!! I loved that even Fak got an arch helping host FOTH. Matty Matheson is so good in this role.

We don't know what Francine did, but I loved that Sugar was like, "NO, AND SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE DID." 🤣 (And Fak obviously knew it too!)

On 6/29/2023 at 5:41 AM, Catfi9ht said:

Notable Callbacks I Saw During Season 1 Rewatch

• Fak describing Richie. he's a nice guy; he's just sad inside.
• Carmen giving Tina his knife was a callback to episode 1 when Tina hid Carmen's knife as payback for changing things.

I realized the actor who plays Richie was the hacker in The Punisher. Between this show, The Punisher, and Andor, he's really shown he has range. I'm super impressed.

It's been terrific to watch Ebon get his big moment in the sun this year (and to see him recognized for "The Bear" and "Andor"), because I've loved him forever as one of those "Hey, it's that guy who's always really good!" types of actors. The weird thing for me was, before "The Bear," I'd only seen him in primarily very gentle, quiet roles (I haven't seen "The Punisher" yet). So his Richie was a shock -- but in a good way. On the shallow side, I love his incredible blue eyes, and I am so thrilled for him that he's getting so much recognition now. (Also, his recent NYT interview seems to paint him as a sweetheart of a guy and with great family and work relationships/divisions.)

Quote

This show and The Punisher have some of the most realistic group counseling scenes I've watched. Obviously, the shows come at trauma from very different angles, but they're both very deep and real when showing what some folks go through.

I so agree. And more on the PTSD aspect farther down, but I definitely think this entire season has been an expansion of the first and how we saw Carmy very much still just trying to reckon with and manage his own PTSD thanks to that villainous chef he worked for. So the therapy scenes are doubly important, and beautifully written (I love that Carmy's monologues there have been these big, quiet, long-take scenes). And White has been terrific there.

Quote

Didn't know what a chaos menu was so I looked it up and found this article: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2023/06/23/the-bear-chaos-menu-meaning-and-recipes-food-anarchy-explained/ 
"Chaos cooking is a term used to define a combination of ingredients that don’t typically go together in a cohesive dish, but that can have surprisingly positive results.
It can be thought of as a more aggressive take on classic ‘fusion’ cuisine with an emphasis on taking food less seriously, finding hidden gems, and giving customers a unique experience."
There are also recipe examples and ideas which helped me understand the definition better.

Thank you for this, this was fascinating! And so apropos to Carmy and Syd's combined sensibilities (and overall to "The Bear").

Quote

Accidents/mistakes will happen and he has a crew that can pick up the slack when shit happens. That's a GOOD THING. He and Sydney built that; there's nothing to freak out about. If this show is trying to say that Carmen hanging out with Claire is a bad thing, I don't agree. What I do think it's trying to show is Carmen self-sabotaging because he's ALWAYS used to bad things happening because something good happens in his life. I don't think Claire or Carmen did anything wrong by hanging out together and letting Carmen have a life outside of work. We've seen how having stable companions benefits the Berzattos like Natalie having Paul.

I honestly don't think the show is telling us that Carmen's relationship with Claire is bad, so much as asking Carmy to examine/overcome the expectation (even underlined by Uncle Jimmy) that to succeed he must give up everything in his life, and I'm with you -- I don't agree with that. I think Claire has been good for Carmy on multiple fronts.

However -- I also was frequently frustrated this season by Carmy blowing off Syd for Claire, and not -- in more than one instance -- simply responding to Claire, "I would really love to, but I made a promise to help Syd/etc with ______." I mean, Claire is an ER doc, for goodness's sake, so I really wanted Carmy to occasionally just tell her "I would love to but I can't" this season and he just seemed unable to do that, which was frustrating. I would argue that he could have done that -- and it seems like Claire would have understood -- and still could have gotten through the opening without sacrificing everything, even love.

But maybe I'm reading things too optimistically? Carmy's final monologue was just devastating. He is the only character in this show that I feel no joy from at all -- ironically, he is a genius at this, but he doesn't seem to feel any visible delight in cooking.

Quote

I wish we got to see more of the amazing personality everyone says Mikey has. He's been able to surround himself by all these people that loved him and talk about how amazing and cool he was. The scenes we've seen him in, he acts like Richie so I don't get all the love for him. I get why he and Richie were best friends, but I don't get this magnetism everyone says he had when they talk about him. The characters in this show are SO great; that's really the only very tiny nitpick I have.

For me, the show has done a nice job of giving us enough anecdotes about Mikey, along with the snippets from S1 and this season's "Fishes" episode, that I have a believable sense that he was both charming and funny and lovable, but also REALLY not mentally well. E6 really broke my heart when we saw Mikey fall apart when he turned down Carmy's request again to work together.

On 6/29/2023 at 7:48 AM, blixie said:

I don't think he let everyone down but he did fail Sydney often but your right it's not really about Claire, it's about Carmy's issues with communicating and managing things. I suspect he could of just as easily stood her up or not fixed the fridge w/o Claire in the picture and worth noting I don't think Sydney's believes that was the reason either. It's Carmy making that wrong connection, instead of as Richie pointing out the generational trauma that affects all his relationships, that we inherit behavior patterns for good and ill from those who raised us. I really liked the note that a man who has tried to fight the "chaos" of his familial life, was against a chaos menu.

This was a great point -- I did think the show believably demonstrated that Carmy frequently let Syd down this season -- not by having a relationship with Claire, but simply by not drawing boundaries. As I mentioned in another reply above, there were several times when he could have simply told Claire, "I would love to but I can't," and instead he didn't say anything about "hello, I love you, but you have to give me space in this incredibly hectic time as I open my restaurant," etc. Carmy's trauma and insecurity meant that he didn't draw those boundaries or support Syd as needed. I definitely do not think Claire had to be his sacrifice for making the restaurant work (I disagree with Uncle Jimmy on that). I mean, they are BOTH working in demanding jobs, so I wanted Claire to be like, "I get it, and I know you will bear with me when I'm on rotation in the ER and you barely see me for two weeks," etc.

There are plenty of ways for their relationship to work if they both worked at it. I didn't love Claire at first, but by the finale I did think she came off like a lovely, kind, supportive person, and I think she would have done her best to understand and support Carmy. He just didn't give her the chance.

On 6/29/2023 at 7:55 AM, blixie said:

I'm not sure what your asking the chef who yelled at Carmie in S1 was a head chef and was played by Joel McHale and I believe that was supposed to be French Laundry/Keller, but I guess could have been a sous of Keller. The chef who yelled about the smudge worked for Terry at her place and I'm not sure we had seen him before. 

My sense is that Terry's place was where he and Will Poulter worked together first they both went to Noma and then Carmie moved to French Laundry while Poulter stayed in Copenhagen.

The McHale chef wasn't literally supposed to represent Keller, just a chef at that level who represented an overwhelmingly common industry type, and who had believably traumatized and abused poor Carmy and (presumably) the rest of his staff.

I definitely don't think it was supposed to be literally The French Laundry so much as "French-Laundry-level."

On 6/29/2023 at 8:40 AM, aghst said:

Olivia Colman was great but she's overkill.  I think Richie had been converted by the time he ran into her peeling those mushrooms.  Another way to show that real actors loved the show.

I disagree. I think Terry (Colman's character) was the person Richie MOST needed to talk to in that moment. He has learned self-respect and joy in his work by that moment, but what Terry does is gently remind him that anyone can start over, and "it's never too late." This silences the last doubt Richie has had about himself -- that it's too late, that he's a fuckup and a loser. Then she gently lets him know that she is very aware of how well he has done the entire time, and that he in fact did live up to Carmy's belief that he would do well there, and that Richie is "good with people." I loved it, and thought it was a lovely, very poignant moment.

I don't think anyone should be too big to play whatever they want, and Colman is an incredible actress who I thought instantly brought warmth and humility to her role here (as did Poulter previously in E4). 

My one slight issue with E6 is that it is so stuffed with famous actors even in small bit roles that it did break immersion for me a bit.

I'm still very divided on E6. I thought it was incredibly necessary, as it really shows us the journeys Carmy, Mikey and Sugar took from this very toxic, arguably abusive environment into now -- as well as showing Richie's journey alongside them, but it's different for him because he was so starved for acceptance and belonging that he was there on purpose while Carmy and Mikey had no choice, if that makes sense.

On 6/29/2023 at 10:10 AM, buttersister said:

My sense was that Carm and Luca worked together (at Chef Terry's?) and that Carm was the chef Luca referred to when telling Marcus that he'd thought he was hot shit until he worked with someone who was (Carm) and it sent him on his way towards humility and hard work. Lovely episode.

 

100% this. I definitely think the genius of that glancing shot over of the picture of Carmy and Luca at Chef Terry's restaurant was to reinforce Luca's story that, yes, the chef he had realized was so far beyond him in talent, as described to Marcus, was in fact Carmy.

On 6/29/2023 at 10:25 AM, blixie said:

Chef Terry is fictional as is the restaurant she owns, in the show called Ever. French Laundry and Noma are real restaurants, Noma is in Copenhagen, that's why the show is vague about specifics re: who McHale was playing, they insinuate Luca and Marcus are working in a Noma but it's not clear that's the case it's possible Luca has opened his own place in Denmark. The photo in Ever implies Luca/Carmy worked together at Ever in Chicago, we also know Carmy worked in Copenhagen and Luca is still there. I think it's reasonable to assume they both worked at Ever and then moved to Noma. Then went separate ways when Carmy was tapped for French Laundry where he was screamed at by Joel McHale. I don't think it matters much in the scheme of anything narratively so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

My interpretation was that Carmy worked for many, many talented and wonderful world-class chefs, and worked with Terry farther back with Luca -- but that the experience became worse and worse the higher his own status progressed. So it wasn't Noma or Chef Terry's experiences, but McHale's whose more recent abuse scarred and changed him.

On 6/29/2023 at 12:54 PM, MsNewsradio said:

My friend and I ate at what was then the number one restaurant in the world a few years ago. It took strategy to plot out how to get a reservation, as they only released them a few months ahead of schedule and had minimal seating (I think 12 tables total in the restaurant, with only two seatings each day). We’ve also taken the time to eat at quite a few Michelin starred restaurants when we travel. The staff at all of them have been extremely dedicated to service - like the show says, every day is their Super Bowl. 

We have neither a weird passion or hobby, nor are rolling in money. We saved specifically for those experiences, and some of them weren’t actually that expensive (Michelin starred restaurants don’t *always* equate to insanely expensive - a lot of times, yes, but not always). We balanced those once-in-a-lifetime meals with far more economical choices for our other meals when traveling. 

While it may not be your thing, I don’t think you need to go so far as to disparage those for whom it is an interest. I personally don’t understand why a person would want to go on a cruise, for example, but different strokes for different folks. To take a line from Amy Poehler “Good for them - not for me”.

Thank you for sharing this -- I loved hearing your story, and it reminded me so much of a good friend of mine, who passed away a few years ago. She loved "Top Chef" and fine dining, and every once in awhile, when she could afford it, she and her friends would check out a famous restaurant in NYC or Chicago and indulge in a fine dining experience. I remember she had a chef's table experience at one of Bryan Voltaggio's restaurants that she raved about for months as life-changing (he was present and very kind and personally interacted with all of the guests, etc.)

On 6/29/2023 at 1:05 PM, aghst said:

Most people can obviously enjoy food without it being prepared by some pedigreed chef or delivered with the kind of obsessive dedication shown in the episode.

Are you arguing against all fine dining, period? It's just an odd argument to me, watching this show. I mean, yes, I think the point is that most people can survive without going to a fine-dining restaurant. But for me, this entire show is about the clash between more "basic" restaurant culture and a desire to aspire to fine dining or a more elevated approach -- and what that requires, what sacrifices may need to be made, and how it affects those who attempt it, etc.

Like, last season, this was the crux of the battle between Richie (and the ghost of Mikey) with Carmy -- Richie just wanted to keep pushing out Chicago Beef sandwiches they way they always had, while Carmy wanted to take it somewhere new. Then this season, Richie is finally on board but Carmy is imploding from the process. 

On 6/29/2023 at 1:08 PM, Hanahope said:

I didn't think sydney was eating at all those restaurants in one day.  i took it to cover like a week or at least several days.  

I went back and re-watched this, and on Sydney's big "restaurant" montage in S2E3 ("Sundae"), I think it seems to start with one very long day that starts with breakfast, followed by a second day. What's a little confusing is that she's wearing the same outfit for the entire thing, but the first montage/day  definitely progresses from breakfast to dinner.

After Carmy bails by text, she starts by ordering several different things at the breakfast place, takes one bite, then starts taking notes. She then moves on to a bunch of grocery stores and seafood suppliers and a butcher shop, has a slice of pizza while walking the city, then she orders a ton of different dinner menu items to taste at Avec (we can see the fading light and we hear the chef referencing the "busy night"), interviews their chef (Donnie), then seems to go on to a later night tasting (Nayia, the chef whose place later closes). We also get a quick flashback to what may have been some other lunch dishes.

She then tries to call Carmy again with no reply, and it's noticeably a new day and she has another day/montage of dishes and dishes and stores, with lots more note-taking, and her flashing back to food moments from her childhood, then with her ending with a simple beautiful decadent sundae.

Regardless of whether it's one day or more, we see a ton of cool dishes, and see her tasting everything and taking notes,  but she is visibly not cleaning every single plate. My take was that she had this amazing time out eating and tasting, then also brought home a ton of doggie bags for some amazing leftovers.

On 6/29/2023 at 4:05 PM, Baltimore Betty said:

I am sad that Carmy is trying to make a high end restaurant, the type of place where it became unhealthy for him to work in, the pressure was insane as we saw in a flashback last season, I wish he had gone in a different direction.

I actually think Carmy is attempting the opposite of what you describe -- to me, he is trying for fine dining, yes, but he is also attempting to nurture and support his team. It is very deliberate and notable to me that he sends everyone out to places that teach and encourage them -- he doesn't send a single person on his team to the kind of abusive Joel McHale chef that broke his own spirit, but instead sends Marcus, Richie, Tina, etc., into situations that will nurture them.

I think what's sad is that even though Carmy is trying so hard NOT to create that kind of place, he still has to battle the fact that he has had some of that abusiveness instilled in him and he has to work against that. We've seen him scream and lose his temper in both seasons, because that is what he absorbed and now has to work against. Which is why I love the ASL "sorry" gesture he and Syd use as a shorthand when he gets emotional this season -- so he can recognize that and pull back.

On 6/29/2023 at 11:42 PM, Daisychain said:

This is a very pertinent point that we haven't expressed enough on this board.  It was gorgeous to hear her sing so lovely.  And her colleagues loved it also, and then she realized they were her friends.  She had new friends.  It was wonderful.  

I have been rewatching Season 1 and Tina was in no way a charmer - remember when she just shat up the temp on Sydney's (sauce, I don't recall if it was anything else?)  Anyhow Tina just reached over and yanked the temp up to high.  Same fear of change and of the future that all of the characters (and most of us have), writ LARGE.  Happy she got to the next step through effort and insight.

Fun - I have been divorced only recently, but my ex and I went together a few years ago to Alinea in Chicago.  We got tickets because it was Lollapalooza in the city and other people cancelled.  We had such a good time.  My ex-spouse, a good friend, would be happy to have a piece of salmon and sweet potato once a night for the rest of his life.  So I met him outside and said "there are no substitutions, don't embarrass me."  Nice, right?  (no, not nice.) But he threw himself into the experience and only stuttered on the mushrooms course, which he really doesn't care for.  We got to dessert which was a candy balloon filled with Bubble-Yum Bubble-Gum helium gas and he went straight for it, proclaiming at the top of the male vocal range, "This is just like my gum from my paper route!" Adorbs.  Anyhoo, isn't that what the frozen chocolate banana would do, ultimately?

I loved Tina's karaoke moment too -- Liza Colon-Zayas is a fantastic actress, and brings so much to Tina. And while I was irritated at her sabotaging Syd early on, I did find it meaningful that she came around pretty fast and now absolutely adores Sydney and her belief in her.

And that is such a lovely description of Alinea! I'm so sorry about your divorce, but am so glad you and your ex had such a wonderful time despite the challenges of the moment.

On 6/30/2023 at 8:25 AM, meep.meep said:

Fak gave Claire Carmy's real cell phone number.  I loved that line from him.

I loved this season.  The second season is rarely better than the first, but they pulled it off.  Wish they could have more than one Jon Bernthal flashback though.

Why does Claire call Richie "cousin"?

Fak gave Claire Carmy's number, but that wasn't what Sugar was referencing -- she was taking about his sister doing something that they all know she isn't past and why she can't come to their family style (and Fak was hilarious because he seemed to expect the reaction).

I thought Claire called Richie "cousin" because they are all from the same neighborhood and grew up together, and it was Carmy's name for Richie. In E6 we find out that Richie and Mike and everyone all know Claire, and that Carmy has had a crush for years.

On 6/30/2023 at 11:42 AM, Daisychain said:

Yes PAB, when I went back to the Season 1, I think Richie and Carmy are not cousins by blood, only by the heart.  I just don't know about Claire and Richie, whether they are actually related or not.

Carmy and Richie are definitely not related, but he was the best friend who basically lived at their house nonstop into adulthood -- I agree that they are cousins "by the heart," which I think is a beautiful way to put it. I don't think Claire is related to Richie, but instead is just using the "neighborhood" nickname for Richie that all the Berzattos called him. We found out in Episode 6 flashback that he and the gang have known her (and hung out with her at least casually) going back several years.

On 6/30/2023 at 1:53 PM, callie lee 29 said:

Carmy's reputation would bring me in, at least initially. He may not have gotten the Michelin stars but he didn't lose them. And it sounds like he's got a really solid cred in the foodie/chef world. 

Good service would keep me, though. I can't remember if it was the forks episode or Syds episode but whoever emphasized the importance on front of house they are not lying. I've continued to go to a lot of places that are over priced with mediocre food because the service is fucking outstanding. 

Chef Donnie tells Syd in E3 ("Sundae") that the thing that will make or break them even more than the food is the front of house and service, that they have to be absolutely extraordinary. I love the way this comes back into play in Ep 7 with Richie ("Forks") and into the end of the season into the big launch, where Richie's talents here cause him to save the day in front and in back of house.

On 6/30/2023 at 2:06 PM, possibilities said:

I thought that might have been Syd having flashbacks to the disaster last season, but it seemed like the fancy place Richie went in Forks also had receipts, so maybe they have a menu but there are tweaks, like little special things such as the chocolate banana, and allergies, and they all know the friends and family preferences. Plus, the tables were starting on a staggered schedule, so she also had to keep track of how many were up and what stage they were at in the meal.

I thought they were definitely taking orders and printing tickets, not just doing a preset tasting menu, which would make sense to me for the Friends and Family soft launch. Otherwise it's not a real rehearsal -- the whole point to me seemed that they would treat it like an opening, take orders, etc. 

On 6/30/2023 at 8:13 PM, qtpye said:

Spoilers for S2 E7

I thought Richie was the weakest part of season 1.

I did not understand why this tall good looking charming guy was so tough to be around. I hated the way he bullied people.

This episode made me really feel for the guy. He finally understood what true passion meant.

I loved the restaurant and found the workings absolutely fascinating.

Richie's ex made me feel more during the few minutes she was on this episode than the actress ever did in her whole run during Community.

The directors are geniuses in the way they seem to be able to get top-notch performances out of all the actors.

I didn't think Richie was a weak part of S1, but would agree that he was often hard to watch. His explosive anger often made me anxious while watching him. Which is why I was really not just happy with his arc this season to becoming a calmer more peaceful person, but I also appreciated that this season seemed to go out of its way to show that "angry Richie" was WORK Richie -- it wasn't who he was with his wife or child. Every scene between Richie and his ex and his daughter showed us a very sweet guy who seemed to be a pretty good dad and husband, even if the marriage ultimately failed. I was honestly really glad to see this, because last season's Richie definitely had me worrying just what kind of dad he was.

On 7/1/2023 at 6:56 AM, peeayebee said:

The scene with Richie and Tiffany in bed (Christmas ep) was so sweet and tender. It was wonderful seeing Richie like this.

I loved that too -- and I thought it was a really necessary and welcome respite to the episode's tension and anxiousness! I also loved what it revealed about Richie in private -- that he was actually a sweet, kind guy (and not always the simmering angry guy we've seen at work).

On 7/1/2023 at 8:00 AM, RoadFullOfPromise said:

Ever is very definitely real! I read some comment somewhere noting that the Chicago restaurants shown were stoked for the season to be released.

https://www.ever-restaurant.com
 

And Noma is in Copenhagen so that tracks, but French Laundry is in California and not NY, so is it supposed to be someone other than Thomas Keller and maybe an NYC restaurant?

I didn't think it was literally supposed to be The French Laundry (in the McHale chef's case) but a place with a similar cachet. It makes sense in terms of navigating the storyline and real world -- show real restaurants in a praiseworthy light, and use a fictional one to show the abusive chef.

On 7/1/2023 at 9:04 AM, IvySpice said:

 

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I loved the Shakespearean tragedy in the finale storylines for both Carmy and Marcus. Macbeth, you want to be king? You can achieve that, but it's a deal with the devil: you will lose your soul and then your life. The Bear crew achieved the opening-night triumph they fought and bled for, but at the cost of Carmy and Marcus sacrificing their connections to the loves of their lives. This is the price of pursuing your ambition to the bitter end.

*chef's kiss*

 

I love this take even if I don't quite agree with it! I don't think the story of the finale was meant to say that the only way for Marcus or Carmy to succeed was for them to lose everything. To me, Marcus missing those messages was simply a way of showing that life goes on, good and bad. And Carmy losing Claire wasn't due to his pursuing his dream, it was rather because he sabotaged himself because of his own trauma.

On 7/1/2023 at 9:06 AM, Catfi9ht said:

Loved this little snippet. 

Thank you for sharing that! Will Poulter just seems like the loveliest guy. I so appreciated how he noted that African cuisine and Black chefs continue to be underpraised and under-awarded when it comes to Michelin stars and the industry as a whole -- and how that needs to change.

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

White and Moss-Bachrach have those imperfect beautiful faces. The cinematographer could not resist a shot of White's brilliant blue eyes as he tilted his head down in the light.

Beautiful and apt descriptions of both men, who I think are really beautiful in these wonderful odd ways. White, to me, seriously has a face like a classical Greek statue. It's really cool -- he's a beautiful guy in an unusual way. And Ebon is a nice-looking guy, but it's those ice-blue eyes of his that I think are extraordinary.

(I still crack up thinking of watching him way back in The Lake House -- my Mom was so  attached to his character, because his eyes always looked so blue and almost teary, like he was always moments away from crying!)

[aghst]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

 

Are you arguing against all fine dining, period? It's just an odd argument to me, watching this show. I mean, yes, I think the point is that most people can survive without going to a fine-dining restaurant. But for me, this entire show is about the clash between more "basic" restaurant culture and a desire to aspire to fine dining or a more elevated approach -- and what that requires, what sacrifices may need to be made, and how it affects those who attempt it, etc.

Like, last season, this was the crux of the battle between Richie (and the ghost of Mikey) with Carmy -- Richie just wanted to keep pushing out Chicago Beef sandwiches they way they always had, while Carmy wanted to take it somewhere new. Then this season, Richie is finally on board but Carmy is imploding from the process. 

I don't usually pursue fine dining, no.  That doesn't mean I can't enjoy shows or movies about it.

I don't usually binge but I went through season 1 fairly quickly and I went through season 2 in about a week to keep up with the discussion.

Certainly Carmy's skills were being wasted making sandwiches, however great they were.  We have seen hints, not the full picture, of what he endured to become great at his craft so I figured he wasn't going to make sandwiches for the rest of his career.

He wasn't necessarily driven to go back to a high-end restaurant but Sydney was, she didn't have his trophies so she yearned for that and maybe re-awakened the desire in Carmy, especially after they found that money.

 

I'm not so sure the show is about fine dining itself.  It certainly depicts that culture but the pursuit pushes these characters emotionally and possibly towards growth.    That is what I suspect the creator wants to show, about interesting characters who immerse themselves in this culture.

They're not interesting characters because they chose fine dining, they already were but they transform themselves, leave behind a lot of baggage in their quest.

The show might suggest that service and delighting clients are the goals.  I don't find that convincing, because the clients are for the most part faceless extras, so while that restaurant Richie staged at prided itself on knowing its clients, how much can they know these people who come there at most a few times?  They hear them talking to each other and pick up ideas, like the deep dish pizza thing.

Similarly, the characters in Succession are not interesting because they want to run this media empire.  They are interesting because they're emotionally damaged and the motivations behind this pursuit.

They don't grow or get better, more effective, as human beings.  Is it because they're just essentially flawed or that Jesse Armstrong doesn't believe people change.

If he wrote for The Bear, Richie doesn't find his calling, doesn't improve.  He's as confrontational and unpleasant as he was at the start of the show.  He certainly wouldn't feel satisfaction from pleasing/delighting customers, sprinting to pick up that pizza and watch for the clients reactions.

I don't think that's Sydney's or Carmy's goal either.  For her, she wants to earn one of the highest stripes in the profession, leave behind her failures, that again they hint at.

For Carmy, he wants to help her achieve that, see Richie grow, support Tina and the rest of the staff, all the people he loves.

But given the amount of money he pours into it and the money he borrows, some of it has to be about making money.  Because if they can't, he will have failed, not just himself but all those others and Mikey who also had a similar dream.