Ghosts of Housewives Past: Jill Zarin, Alex, and the Rest

[islandgal140]

Bethenny defended the strange photo by saying that when your young daughter wants you to put on her clothes, you do it. OK, but I doubt that her daughter insisted that she post the photo online. THAT's the part that's really disturbing...Bethenny's need to show the world absolutely everything she does, no matter how odd or uncomfortable the photo's effect. Her poor daughter will always be playing second fiddle to her mother's Instagram account. Kind of reminds me of Kim Kardashian and North West.

 

When I learned these women were pregnant I really hoped and wished that they had boys. Not that their jacked up self image issues wouldn't have an impact on boys but I just think things tend to be more raw and unfiltered between moms and daughters. Just wait til sexual/attractiveness competition rears its ugly head as the mom ages - watch out! All those hangups about looks and body image are passed damn near with the mother's milk. Bethenny is already at the 'we can wear the same clothes' shit and her daughter is still a doggone toddler!! I very much doubt her daughter asked her to put it on. My bet was B did her usual repeat a question over and over again with the force and frequency of bullets leaving an Uzi and her daughter was like okay sure.  I have hope for B's daughter because of her ex -in-laws. Nori is fucked with Kim as mom, Kanye as a dad and Kris as a grandma and the rest of the Klan surrounding her.  I shouldn't say she is fucked, more rather the deck is stacked against her having valuesm mores and goals differing from her mother. I do hope she finds her own way and voice.  

 

I know this may come off as mean but I have to say this. Bethenny was the one of the most unfortunate looking pregnant women I think I have ever seen. I had never, never, ever seen someone's face and jaw swell up like that with pregnancy. WTF was that?!? Good gravy! I know that women's bodies change with pregnancy. Noses can swell up. Feet come become grotesque - that pic of Kim in those strappy sandals with her feet busting out like a Pillsbury can had been smashed with a hammer is iconic. If I could have it as my signature, I would! But I disgress, never seen a mug like B's do that before. Just Damn!

 

I was glad to see Silex go. They just never fit in with the show. They were more annoying and try hard as opposed to ruthless and nasty so I never had blazing hate for them. They just annoyed me, especially Alex capping for Bethenny towards the end. Every time I see the episode where Jill shows up as a surprise to Scary Island and Alex is shaking like a wet chihuahua I wanna scream BITCH PLEASE! WTF has Jill done to you so terrible to have you doing the crack withdrawal shakes?

 

Alex for sure was no great beauty but in retrospect, I do applaud her confidence and she never put anyone else's looks down to make herself feel better. I will say that as the season's progressed so did polish up nicely and she looked the best she ever looked at the end. Still no model but good by Alex standards. I did love that Simon loved her down to the dirty drawers. That is as it should be.

[sasha206]

Island girl, totally agree about Bethenny.  Many years ago, SNL did a skit where Dan Akyroyd was attacked by a grizzly bear.  I wish I could find the clip or his face, but basically it looked like the face was in a downward droop and reminds me of Bethenny.  She can look decent, but her hair basically has to cover the jaw.

 

Also agree with you on the Silex sitch.  Alex actually looked somewhat attractive in Season 4.  And her husband adores her and that's neat to see.

 

So I'm on Season 4 now and Sonja pretending to be Ramona to prep Kelly was freaking hilarious!

[MatildaMoody]

 

IIRC, I was firmly in Alex's corner over that.  You?

I was on Alex's side of that as well. But, I have to say that I DIED laughing when she met up with Sonja for lunch afterwards and Sonja was acting like a Dynasty-Level bitch for her. It was one of those moments where I kind of rooted for the bad guy because of the way she completely stole that scene.

[sasha206]

IIRC, I was firmly in Alex's corner over that.  You?

 

 

Oh yeah -- Sonja was ridiculous over the whole grand marshall thing.  I don't blame Alex for being pissed.

[LilaFowler]

Great, I'm going to have to re-watch S4 now.  It had so many great and cringe-worthy moments.

 

(Look at Sonja on the left, running away!  LMAO)

 

Edited August 11, 2014 by candy moocher

[ghoulina]

I thought that was another occasion when Alex (and Simon by extension) was in the right, but the way she handled it was all wrong.  It's been awhile, but I feel her reaction made her come across a bit looney tunes. 

 

 

And, yes, I never understood Alex being cagey about having her teeth fixed. I have horrible teeth. My father refused to pay for braces as a kid, and I would love to do Invisalign one of these days to finally correct them. If, and when, that happens - I will shout if from the roof top! What's the big deal? She's lucky she had the means to do that for herself. 

[sasha206]

I thought that was another occasion when Alex (and Simon by extension) was in the right, but the way she handled it was all wrong.  It's been awhile, but I feel her reaction made her come across a bit looney tunes. 

 

 

And, yes, I never understood Alex being cagey about having her teeth fixed. I have horrible teeth. My father refused to pay for braces as a kid, and I would love to do Invisalign one of these days to finally correct them. If, and when, that happens - I will shout if from the roof top! What's the big deal? She's lucky she had the means to do that for herself. 

 

I agree.  I'll never understand how these reality shows celebs (or any celebs) deny having work done when it is so easy to check their previous photos.  Just admit to it like you would if someone asked you if it was your natural hair color!  

[ryebread]

I agree.  I'll never understand how these reality shows celebs (or any celebs) deny having work done when it is so easy to check their previous photos.  Just admit to it like you would if someone asked you if it was your natural hair color!  

Speaking of hair, Lu's looked so much better in the gif above than it does now.  I don't know if the layers are softer, if the color is nicer, texture is better, or what.  The only person who's hair looked worse on those couches was Carole's.

 

Alex looks pretty, here.  I just magnified this pic 300% (for science) and it's clear most, or all, of her teeth have been capped or veneered.  Hair and make-up look great. Photo courtesy of Zimbio.

 

Good times, good times.

[sasha206]

She does look great there.  Did she get some lips too?  She's a case where just a teeny bit of collagen in the lips would help.

[ryebread]

Don't know about the lips - a good liner and lip plumping serum will do that.  But it looks to me like she's done a bit of botox or something in her forehead wrinkles when I  compare the 2 pics.  Maybe she's had her skin resurfaced.  Or perhaps she's just eating better and is less stressed out.

 

Hair makes a difference.  I was watching Jersey Princess or Jersey something or other on Bravo this a.m.  The lead has pin straight, long brown hair that, imo, looks awful.  But in some of her THs, she's got highlights and some natural wave and it looks 5000% better.

[sasha206]

Don't know about the lips - a good liner and lip plumping serum will do that.  But it looks to me like she's done a bit of botox or something in her forehead wrinkles when I  compare the 2 pics.  Maybe she's had her skin resurfaced.  Or perhaps she's just eating better and is less stressed out.

 

Hair makes a difference.  I was watching Jersey Princess or Jersey something or other on Bravo this a.m.  The lead has pin straight, long brown hair that, imo, looks awful.  But in some of her THs, she's got highlights and some natural wave and it looks 5000% better.

 

Agreed on the hair.  The style and color is great on her. I think she looks the best when it is soft and straight like that.  Make-up looks great too.  Huge improvement over seasons 1 & 2.

Watching this show I am amazed at the preponderance of backhanded compliments and just plain rude remarks!

 

Jill goes into Cindy's apartment.  "Oh, it's a place for babies, not parties.  You'll fix it up when they are older" (or something like that).

 

Ramona at dinner with unmarried older woman with children Cindy: "My time with Mario is precious to me.  You'll understand someday when you're married 18 years."

 

We should do a rewatch and keep a running list of these comments.

[sasha206]

Kelly in Season 4 so far is making me laugh.  But this is still early.

Edited August 12, 2014 by sasha206

[sasha206]

Okay, so I'm at the fortune teller in Morocco who tells Ramona there is another woman.  Now, I don't believe in fortune tellers.  I think given there are a lot of men with other women, it's a good bet to place as a "fortune teller" but wow, Sonja's reaction and Ramona's reactions.  Obviously there was something else going on then.

 

Weird to watch all of these and see some of the clues now that you know he was a cheater.

[sasha206]

You'll know exactly why in season 3. Enjoy!!

 

OMG.  I'm on Season 4 and have a very clear understanding.  Jill is so incredibly exhausting.  Every argument = it's over, the end, done, NEVER EVER do that to me again.  Then when she's got no allies, it's the woe-is-me- I'm not perfect. She doesn't listen to what people are telling them.  Cuts them off.  You are either with me or against me.  

[sasha206]

Okay, I am cracking up at the 3rd epi in Morocco where Alex comes bouncing down the stairs to confront LuAnn over poor vulnerable Ramona.  While Alex is getting her ass handed to her by LuAnn, Ramona and Sonja are having a grand old time together.  Then Kelly starts getting pissed at Alex because her Henna tattoo was ruined.  Comes back and tells Alex to shush shush shush you're not angry, you're sad.  Close your eyes.  Okay now open them.  

 

Kelly is still crazy but likeable crazy this season. 

[Rhetorica]

Wasn't that the one where KKB asked, "Who's gonna fix this, Santa?!"

[ryebread]

Wasn't that the one where KKB asked, "Who's gonna fix this, Santa?!"

Hilarious. Yes.

[sasha206]

Wasn't that the one where KKB asked, "Who's gonna fix this, Santa?!"

 

YES!  That was so freaking hilarious!

 

Now I wish they would bring her back to RHONY.

[Rhetorica]

YES! That was so freaking hilarious!

Now I wish they would bring her back to RHONY.

Those days seem so innocent now...

[Satchels of gold]

And of course this gem.....you ruined the fucking surprise! Cue footage of Alex looking very nervous and Simon being furious.

Wait wait one more.....The countess asking Kelly what it takes to let her hair down and Kelly reaching up taking out her hair tie and shaking her head. Cut to the countess TH saying I meant figuratively not literally. Hilarious!

[comatoast]

Wait wait one more.....The countess asking Kelly what it takes to let her hair down and Kelly reaching up taking out her hair tie and shaking her head.

Yes! Like if she was modelling in a Pantene commercial! Love that scene. I don't generally like Kelly, but she has made me laugh a lot. At her.  

 

Sasha206: I remember thinking season 4 was the fakest and the most team-oriented ever, but you're really making me want to give it another chance. Do you think it's better than seasons 5&6? About the same?

Edited August 12, 2014 by comatoast

[SFoster21]

What about jogging down the center of Fifth Avenue? And gummy bears? And trying to make pancakes while her kids laughed at her? And Sea? Kelly gave good value, deluded dummy that she was.

[ghoulina]

My best Kelly moment....ah, hard to pick. I'd say a three way tie between "Al Sharpton!", "Johan face", and when she tries to storm off on the deck of the ship, but gets stuck trying to operate the door. 

 

Ahhhh, I do agree that Kelly provides lots of snark, and I wouldn't mind having her back. I would love to see her and Danielle Staub on the same show. The craziness could not be contained!!!

[ryebread]

Or when she was doing the photo shoot and realized she could be the 'A' in Halloween for her party invitation?  She got so excited about that.

"Johan face, Alex, Johan face."  Dead.

 

 

[zoeysmom]

I thought that was another occasion when Alex (and Simon by extension) was in the right, but the way she handled it was all wrong.  It's been awhile, but I feel her reaction made her come across a bit looney tunes. 

 

 

And, yes, I never understood Alex being cagey about having her teeth fixed. I have horrible teeth. My father refused to pay for braces as a kid, and I would love to do Invisalign one of these days to finally correct them. If, and when, that happens - I will shout if from the roof top! What's the big deal? She's lucky she had the means to do that for herself. 

Alex and Simon talked about Alex's dental work on WWHL.  She had some major gum work done.

 

Jill had been very, very mean to Alex, constantly trying to get her fired and excluding her from scenes.  It wasn't until Jill could not get through to Bethenny and went to Alex and then didn't listen to Alex that Alex lost it with Jill. 

 

I think Alex would have been good with Carole.

[comatoast]

What about jogging down the center of Fifth Avenue? And gummy bears? And trying to make pancakes while her kids laughed at her? And Sea? Kelly gave good value, deluded dummy that she was.

Just to say something positive about her, she did seem to do a good job with her girls. I also liked that in spite of being a model, she didn't seem as absorbed with her face/body as the others. She had her contradictions about diet, but she always worked out. I thought that was key to a healthy attitude about food and body image.

[Satchels of gold]

Or when Kelly ,during her breakthrough, says to Alex that she walked into the venue to confront Jill with Kabuki makeup on. Poor Alex looked so confused and just sort of mumbled an okayyyyy.

Edited August 12, 2014 by nc socialworker

[ryebread]

Just to say something positive about her, she did seem to do a good job with her girls. I also liked that in spite of being a model, she didn't seem as absorbed with her face/body as the others. She had her contradictions about diet, but she always worked out. I thought that was key to a healthy attitude about food and body image.

She's also a huge advocate for animals so I can't hate her.  (Unlike Heather who said "the best thing" she's "ever seen" was a rodeo. WT...?) 

 

I always had a soft spot for Kelly.  In part because I disliked Bethenny so much.  And partly because I think she's on the spectrum and many people that I love are, too.

[sasha206]

Yes! Like if she was modelling in a Pantene commercial! Love that scene. I don't generally like Kelly, but she has made me laugh a lot. At her.  

 

Sasha206: I remember thinking season 4 was the fakest and the most team-oriented ever, but you're really making me want to give it another chance. Do you think it's better than seasons 5&6? About the same?

 

I'm only midway through it, but it to me, it's as good.  Prophetic really!  The clip of Ramona telling Mario about what the fortune teller said was worth the price of admission alone.  Mario had the deer-in-the-headlights look.  I liked Cindy talking about Sonja's interns.  Kelly talking about the crumbling townhouse.  Sonja's bankruptcy.   Alex finding her "voice" and annoying the fuck out of everyone.  The funny thing to me is she found her "voice" is controversial and gets her ass handed to her every.single.time.

[sasha206]

And OMG, I love watching any scene with Kelly in it.  Kelly never lets anyone finish a sentence. The scene where she's having breakfast with Alex and she's telling her everyone is concerned about Alex because she's not doing well. And she lives in Brooklyn!  Incrediblly funny!

[comatoast]

I'm only midway through it, but it to me, it's as good.  Prophetic really!  The clip of Ramona telling Mario about what the fortune teller said was worth the price of admission alone.  Mario had the deer-in-the-headlights look.

That was during the "ramontic (Ha! That typo stays!) scene," right? Poor Avery must have been mortified when it aired. I don't remember some of the other stuff so I definitely have to watch it again. You're making it sound pretty funny!

[sasha206]

That was during the "ramontic (Ha! That typo stays!) scene," right? Poor Avery must have been mortified when it aired. I don't remember some of the other stuff so I definitely have to watch it again. You're making it sound pretty funny!

 

Yes it was!!  Oh my that was uncomfortable.  Did not need to see that!

 

And yes, I think Seasons 1-4 are the best of the best.  I am enjoying it.  We need to do a rewatch together and open up a thread!

[comatoast]

Yes it was!!  Oh my that was uncomfortable.  Did not need to see that!

 

And yes, I think Seasons 1-4 are the best of the best.  I am enjoying it.  We need to do a rewatch together and open up a thread!

Oops. I had started a topic for talking about past seasons, but since it seems to happen here, I just sent Lisin a PM to delete mine if she wants.

 

Back to cringe-worthy scenes, wasn't there an equally horrifying scene with Alex and Simon at some point in that season? 

[sasha206]

Watching Ramona and Sonja together makes me think they should just go full on lesbian.  Based on what I've seen of them, I feel confident they've already gone there. They seem to really love each other.

[ryebread]

Prophetic really!  The clip of Ramona telling Mario about what the fortune teller said was worth the price of admission alone.  Mario had the deer-in-the-headlights look.  I liked Cindy talking about Sonja's interns.  Kelly talking about the crumbling townhouse.  Sonja's bankruptcy.  

 

I wonder if when this show is in it's 9th season we'll be rewatching this season and say...Gee, the writing on the wall for Carole and Heather's friendship imploding was right there.  Or, we always kind of knew that Mario and Sonja had an attraction. Not surprising, really, that they're together now.  Or that Ramona and Sonja are lovers. 

ETA:  LOL, Sasha.  Brilliant minds.  Or is it just really obvious?

Edited August 12, 2014 by ryebread

[sasha206]

Oops. I had started a topic for talking about past seasons, but since it seems to happen here, I just sent Lisin a PM to delete mine if she wants.

 

Back to cringe-worthy scenes, wasn't there an equally horrifying scene with Alex and Simon at some point in that season? 

 

YES!  Same episode where Simon buys her lingerie and she models it for us.  Great healthy self esteem but holy fuck, I don't need to see Alex trying to get sexed up.

[LilaFowler]

Alex always annoyed me with her desperate need to fight other people's battles, specifically Bethenny's and Ramona's.  Neither one of them really gave a damn about her.  Are they all still friends?  Yeah, thought so.  They were just using her, and despite being an intelligent and capable woman in reality, she wasn't cut out for reality tv.

[comatoast]

She's also a huge advocate for animals so I can't hate her.  (Unlike Heather who said "the best thing" she's "ever seen" was a rodeo. WT...?) 

 

I always had a soft spot for Kelly.  In part because I disliked Bethenny so much.  And partly because I think she's on the spectrum and many people that I love are, too.

She also went to Haiti to help somehow, didn't she? She was never a favorite of mine, but I hate to think what season 3 would have been without Kelly.

[ZaldamoWilder]

She also went to Haiti to help somehow, didn't she? She was never a favorite of mine, but I hate to think what season 3 would have been without Kelly.

 

Nodding.  To help build wells as part of a clean water initiative.  It's hard to reconcile the person who made a speech about healthy eating habits while popping a handful of jelly beans and somebody who couldn't figure out how to use a door (™ LaToya Jackson) with this girl here, but I dig that under all the eccentricity she has a really kind heart.

[ryebread]

Alex always annoyed me with her desperate need to fight other people's battles, specifically Bethenny's and Ramona's.  Neither one of them really gave a damn about her.  Are they all still friends?  Yeah, thought so.  They were just using her, and despite being an intelligent and capable woman in reality, she wasn't cut out for reality tv.

I agree.  I cringed with embarrassement when she went to Jill with a message from Bethenny.  Still makes me cringe.  Kristen kind of makes me feel this way but to a lesser degree.  She wants to fit in so she'll go to dramatic lengths to try to make that happen. And I don't think Heather or Carole really care for her.  I do, however, believe she IS cut out for reality TV.

Edited August 12, 2014 by ryebread

[sasha206]

Pardon my language, but holy fuck, I am now watching the Natalie Cole/LuAnn duet.  LuAnn honey, you were so offkey it's amazing Natalie Cole didn't break out in laughter.  

[AKA...CJ86]

Pardon my language, but holy fuck, I am now watching the Natalie Cole/LuAnn duet.  LuAnn honey, you were so offkey it's amazing Natalie Cole didn't break out in laughter.  

...with Ramona and Sonja with a pregnancy test in the bathroom...wasn't Jill stalking outside trying to listen in...

[ryebread]

...with Ramona and Sonja with a pregnancy test in the bathroom...wasn't Jill stalking outside trying to listen in...

This was about the time that NYC went off the rails for me for the first time.

[sasha206]

This was about the time that NYC went off the rails for me for the first time.

 

 

I loved how they had the baby talk during the dinner with Alex and Simon, then suddenly she shows up at Sonja's with a shirt that is cut down to her navel and talks about missing her period by 5 days and now her boobs are huge and sore and she is glowing!  What 54 year old misses her period for 5 days and assumes it isn't anything other than her body going into menopause?  I don't know any woman that delusional to think she's pregnant first at that age and not menopausal.

 

I also loved how Ramona defended thought during the reunion. "I'm on my period now."  

[sasha206]

I wonder if when this show is in it's 9th season we'll be rewatching this season and say...Gee, the writing on the wall for Carole and Heather's friendship imploding was right there.  Or, we always kind of knew that Mario and Sonja had an attraction. Not surprising, really, that they're together now.  Or that Ramona and Sonja are lovers. 

ETA:  LOL, Sasha.  Brilliant minds.  Or is it just really obvious?

 

Ha, we typed that at the same time!

 

To me, I've always thought if Ramona hadn't with Sonja, she was bi-curious.  I think she latched onto Sonja because she thinks Sonja is sexually adventurous and therefore maybe *something* would just naturally happen.  Then at some point, I think it did.  Not only did they "spoon" during the vacation with Aviva, but remember they broke the shower door handle I *think* at Aviva's condo in FL?  Why would two grown women shower together?

 

And no question Sonja swings that way.  She nearly overheated when Kristin was undressing for the spray tan...personally, if I were going to swing that way, Kristen's body wouldn't do it for me!

I really wish Jill wasn't so "I thought you were my friend" because she has a good sense of humor.  But the high maintenance stuff...

[FozzyBear]

Ha, we typed that at the same time!

To me, I've always thought if Ramona hadn't with Sonja, she was bi-curious. I think she latched onto Sonja because she thinks Sonja is sexually adventurous and therefore maybe *something* would just naturally happen. Then at some point, I think it did. Not only did they "spoon" during the vacation with Aviva, but remember they broke the shower door handle I *think* at Aviva's condo in FL? Why would two grown women shower together?

And no question Sonja swings that way. She nearly overheated when Kristin was undressing for the spray tan...personally, if I were going to swing that way, Kristen's body wouldn't do it for me!

I really wish Jill wasn't so "I thought you were my friend" because she has a good sense of humor. But the high maintenance stuff...

Sonja and Ramona are interesting. Apparently they've known each other for years. When you put Harry in the mix it seems that Sonja, Ramona, Luanne, and to a lesser extent Aviva have run in similar circles since they were kids starting out in NYC. I've always wondered if they all ran in the "snag a rich husband" crowd. Especially Ramona, Sonja, and Luanne. I remember that from my NYC days. It wasn't my scene, but I had a few casual friends who ran in that never-date-anyone-who-makes-less-than-a-million-a-year crowd. Believe it or not it's a thing and they all have a tendency to hang at the same bars and know the same people. I found the same to be true when I lived in LA, the girls who wanted to marry well all sort of ran in the same general circle where intentions were more or less known. It's a slightly different crowd than the young up and comers or the young hipsters. I always wondered if that's how they all had this vague connection to each other.

[Maharincess]

I'm loving the mini recaps too.

I remember during Jill's final season that Luann was so far up Jill's but she could see what she had for dinner.

Are they still friends?

[Satchels of gold]

Nodding.  To help build wells as part of a clean water initiative.  It's hard to reconcile the person who made a speech about healthy eating habits while popping a handful of jelly beans and somebody who couldn't figure out how to use a door (™ LaToya Jackson) with this girl here, but I dig that under all the eccentricity she has a really kind heart.

Well, I would expect nothing less from the ambassador for wool.

[sasha206]

I gotta say having watched Season 4 and the reunion, LuAnn can handle herself well in an argument, while poor Alex tries so hard and looks foolish.  Kelly continues to amaze.  Her comment that she was really "hurt" when Sonja didn't have her underwear on was priceless.

 

And wow, Ramona...it *has* to be humiliating how her marriage ended when she went on and on about it, especially in light of the fact that during Season 4 there was a lot of talk about cheating rumors - not just with the fortune teller comment. Must've been pretty well known that he was fooling around on her then and she was in denial.

 

There was even a comment Andy read from a viewer that Mario had a "I've been caught" face when Ramona told him about the fortune teller's comment.  

Edited August 13, 2014 by sasha206

[ryebread]

I remember that from my NYC days. It wasn't my scene, but I had a few casual friends who ran in that never-date-anyone-who-makes-less-than-a-million-a-year crowd. Believe it or not it's a thing and they all have a tendency to hang at the same bars and know the same people.

Gosh, that takes me back.

In the late 80s I had a roommate in NYC who quit her receptionist position and made it her JOB for a year to hook a rich man. If she didn't do it in a year she was moving back home to Savannah. She had $40,000 that was willed to her in the bank.  She bought the 'right' clothes, got her hair and nails done at the right salon, did nothing but work out all day and pay the rent each month. Then she'd hit those upscale bars and restaurants that you refer to above. She time shared a house in the Hamptons that summer with about 30 others.  She was on a mission. It took her 4 months to meet the handsome, charming, moneybags that she's still married to and they live not too far from Yolanda.  I'd say she had a good return on her investment.  Heh.

 

I think you're right on the money that this is the type of lifestyle Sonja and Ramona were living back then. There was a certain circle that hung in the right places. From the minute Sonja made her debut on RHONY and I heard her story, she reminded me of my roommate and those days. I wonder if Morgan was the first really wealthy one that showed her any interest beyond the first few dates.  The age thing makes me scratch my head a little.  She was certainly beautiful and hopefully not that delusional back then.  I think that had she held out a little, she might have found someone else, also very wealthy but maybe she'd still be married?  Who knows.  Sonja might be just as crazy IRL as she is on screen.  Maybe it didn't matter who she married.

 

You didn't happen to be in NYC in the 80s, did you?