S06.E06: Axe and Grind

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Yes...I was referring to Mike allowing the POS Tyrus know who she is, Mike should have had his boys there but not under the Gus protection plan. 

Gus had Mike under surveillance for an extended period of time, before Mike ever met Gus, so it's pretty reasonable for Mike to assume that Gus already had knowledge of his grandaughter and DiL.

[SimplexFish]

6 minutes ago, suzeecat said:

While I appreciate every detail that the writers, directors and producers painstakingly include, I was wondering, and still do, why we had to put up with Mike stargazing with his granddaughter.  They move so slowly through scenes like this, like we're supposed to be watching v-e-r-r-y closely for clues, but I think this was just a distraction.  Or, do they call it a "red herring"?

Maybe just a filler for time...

[Adiba]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Am I the only one here who saw Howard’s incredibly patronizing, arrogant behavior when he followed Kim off that elevator to “warn” her about Jimmy’s bowling ball shenanigans? He really thought she needed his guidance and protection. She’s a grown, strong, incredibly intelligent, independent woman and didn’t need his advice or protection. Most people really don’t appreciate someone who thinks they’re doing them a favor by tattling on their spouses. If Howard thought Jimmy was cheating on Kim, would he have rushed over to warn her? Even if true, most people will resent the messenger. Would Howard have made a point to warn a male friend about their wife’s alleged activities in the same way?

But Kim in turn wants to advise her clients about what they should and should not do as well? Doesn’t Kim feel the “poor”need her guidance and protection?  She and Jimmy lied to her client with the pregnant wife to get him to take the guilty plea. Would Kim appreciate it were it done to her? Kim is lying to Jimmy about Lalo to “protect” him— she’d rip him a new one if Jimmy did that to her.

Now, I’m not saying that Kim shouldn’t advise her clients to do the best thing legally according to her knowledge of the system. But Howard probably thought he was looking out for Kim—the hard-working, by-the-book Kim that wanted out of the mailroom. He was wrong. So, Kim resents him, doesn’t like him, OK. But the hatred? It ‘s as if she’s using Howard as the receptacle of all her anger and frustration at the unfairness in the world. And that, in itself, is not fair.

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Adiba said:

But Kim in turn wants to advise her clients about what they should and should not do as well? Doesn’t Kim feel the “poor”need her guidance and protection?  She and Jimmy lied to her client with the pregnant wife to get him to take the guilty plea. Would Kim appreciate it were it done to her? Kim is lying to Jimmy about Lalo to “protect” him— she’d rip him a new one if Jimmy did that to her.

Now, I’m not saying that Kim shouldn’t advise her clients to do the best thing legally according to her knowledge of the system. But Howard probably thought he was looking out for Kim—the hard-working, by-the-book Kim that wanted out of the mailroom. He was wrong. So, Kim resents him, doesn’t like him, OK. But the hatred? It ‘s as if she’s using Howard as the receptacle of all her anger and frustration at the unfairness in the world. And that, in itself, is not fair.

Kim's obviously flawed. Once you're predisposed to hate someone, as Kim has good reason to be, it doesn't take much to add fuel to the fire, and the fuel may not be rational.

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, Adiba said:

Who is to say that some of the pro bono clients she helps aren’t going to view her the same way that she views Howard, et al? She is a pretty, blond, white educated woman who will be telling them what’s best for them, what they should do— something Kim herself hates others to do to her.

Exactly what Archer(?), the ol' coot squatter, saw her as. She tried to commiserate with him about being evicted and he saw right thru her. She has all the breaks handed to her; someone paid for her to go to Law School! Who gets those breaks? Is Howard supposed to suffer for what her mommy did to her 20 years ago? These folks (J&K) hate success, Gus does so much to build and maintain respectability, and these two spit at every chance of getting what they want handed to them.

[peeayebee]

 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

She did shoplift, but got caught. Then her Mom flummoxed the store owner and got him on Kim's side to the point where she didn't get punished by the store and wouldn't be paying anything back.

I didn't really understand what exactly happened when I first watched, but I generally agree with you. Kim shoplifted on her own and got caught. I'm not sure at what point her mom decided to trick the store manager. Seems she planned on playing the tough-love, outraged mother before she got to the store, but for what end? Just to soften up the manager? Probably. I don't think she had a plan to steal the jewelry. It just presented itself to her when he left it on the desk. ETA: Kim's mom probably just liked tricking someone for its own sake, just like Kim got a thrill out of being Giselle.

So, I rewatched the ep and caught a couple of things...

At the vets when Jimmy is testing out the drug, he says that his skin's a little dry where the vet put it on, so it's not a substance you ingest, but that is topical. Jimmy just needs to put the stuff where Howard will touch it. Door knob? Something like that.

I saw Kim wearing the earrings in other scenes in addition to the final one.

In the Lalo/Caspar scene, behind the business card Lalo is showing him, he's holding a razor blade. Lalo first slices Caspar's face with it, then he grabs the ax and chops off his foot.

Although I wasn't enamored with the Mike/Kaylee scene, it did strike me that while Kaylee is looking thru a telescope at the stars, Mike is looking thru binoculars at Kaylee.

The Post-It Note board has a bunch of intriguing notes. I couldn't see them all. In order, here's what I saw (though again there are gaps):

- drawing of magnifier glass (crossed out)
- drawing of scales of justice (crossed out)
- drawing of camera (crossed out)
- drawing of eye [dilated?] (crossed out)
- T -1 (crossed out)
- D-Day
- drawing of violin
- DOUBLE?
- BPU?
- drawing of cell phone
- drawing of atomic mushroom cloud
- SF or ABQ?
- MAKEUP? FACE PUTTY?
- RED BULL?
- 7 + PC 842159
- $
- DRUG TRIAL
- HHM
- drawing of moustache
- TIMING? 25 min
- Delivery [something] ?

Oh and, that little dog at the vet's is SO CUTE!!!!

Edited May 17, 2022 by peeayebee

[Cinnabon]

36 minutes ago, Sharper2002 said:

She sees the Howards and Kevin of the world as doing as they please, collateral damage be damned

Exactly this. And that’s what they do. I wish she was going after Kevin instead of Howard though. 

[SimplexFish]

9 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

 

 

The Post-It Note board has a bunch of intriguing notes. I couldn't see them all. In order, here's what I saw (though again there are gaps):

- drawing of magnifier glass (crossed out)
- drawing of scales of justice (crossed out)
- drawing of camera (crossed out)
- drawing of eye [dilated?] (crossed out)
- T -1 (crossed out)
- D-Day
- drawing of violin
- DOUBLE?
- BPU?
- drawing of cell phone
- drawing of atomic mushroom cloud
- SF or ABQ?
- MAKEUP? FACE PUTTY?
- RED BULL?
- 7 + PC 842159
- $
- DRUG TRIAL
- HHM
- drawing of moustache
- TIMING? 25 min
- Delivery [something] ?

Oh and, that little dog at the vet's is SO CUTE!!!!

Wow! Good job!

Yes the pupper was awesome! 

Edited May 17, 2022 by SimplexFish

[SimplexFish]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly this. And that’s what they do. I wish she was going after Kevin instead of Howard though. 

Me too

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

So the only new information from the two scenes is the tension between Tyrus and Gus.

Mike is remembering the Cousins showing up at Kaylee's playground. He is NEVER taking his guys off Alameda St. ..."One minute"

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly this. And that’s what they do. I wish she was going after Kevin instead of Howard though. 

Again, Kevin is an example of good writing, this time of a secondary character, something most shows put little effort into. Yes, he's prvileged and his demeanor off-putting, but his overt behavior? He wants to expand a business by offering a needed service in a superior fashion, which will create hundreds of jobs. He obviously has no problem in giving real authority and power to women. On balance, people like that are a significant net positive to society. Even if they enforce contracts that grouchy old bastards want to conveniently forget that they voluntarily agreed to.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Bannon

[JudyObscure]

11 minutes ago, Adiba said:

But Kim in turn wants to advise her clients about what they should and should not do as well? Doesn’t Kim feel the “poor”need her guidance and protection?  She and Jimmy lied to her client with the pregnant wife to get him to take the guilty plea. Would Kim appreciate it were it done to her? Kim is lying to Jimmy about Lalo to “protect” him— she’d rip him a new one if Jimmy did that to her.

Good points all!  You've reminded me of what a fine line there is between helping and patronizing and  while some of her clients will be grateful to Kim others will see her as a privileged white savior type and resent her.

Kim's attitude to Howard's warning about Jimmy always makes me suspect she's thinking, "Jimmy doesn't ruin me! I ruin me!"

[gallimaufry]

I think it's telling that my post garnered two really interesting and thoughtful, but completely different interpretations.  And to be fair, clearly there's some Venn diagram overlap in Kim between a personal dislike of Howard and a dislike of what he more broadly represents, but I'm not sure either feels like enough to root a character on.

Absolutely the cornfields thing was the wrong move and even Chuck acknowledged it but I just never got any sense that this was the root of some burning enmity.  Even going back to the scene where she quits, the way it's played is not of some seething undercurrent of resentment.  And I just don't see why a slight two years ago that ultimately backfired badly is worth torpedoing your dream in the here and now.  (And just narratively, if they wanted us to make that connection, I think even as internal a show as this one would at least mention the cornfields incident obliquely after all this time.)

The idea that he represents something is interesting and is certainly consistent with the way Kim went after Kevin.  I think this is where they'll go with it but she's spent all this time fitting into that world and although I could see this as a motivation, I don't think it justifies such a radical break.

My own view was that Kim could take a perfectly rational -- if unethical and highly ill-judged -- rationale that scamming Howard was for the greater good.  A "career setback for one lawyer", especially one who probably had it coming anyway, absolutely could be seen in a utilitarian worldview as acceptable collateral damage in something that will clearly do so much good.  I also thought there was an element of her looking to turn Jimmy's penchant for trouble-making to her own ends and thereby control an otherwise loose cannon.  But this final scene basically blows that motive up.

My worry is that the way Peter Gould talks he seems to think it would be reductive to add details that would really explain her motive.  I'm just sure that's true though.  I don't think Hamlet is less complex because his motives are crystal clear to the audience.  More to the point, Gus was a much stronger character in BB where we found out new things about him at a fairly steady cadence than here where we really have no major new biographical insight in the past four years.  Or Mike who was deeply enriched by "Five-O".  The worry seems to be that explaining will be disappointing but if you explain well, it's enriching, as the show itself has proved.

Anyway, we'll see, and I certainly hope they do manage it.

There a lot of other good bits to note.  I love that the earrings get an origin.  It amazes me how many little objects get whole backstories on this show.

I also love the "cross" shot of them driving off on D-Day.  Didn't catch what was causing the cross - will need to rewatch.

49 minutes ago, suzeecat said:

While I appreciate every detail that the writers, directors and producers painstakingly include, I was wondering, and still do, why we had to put up with Mike stargazing with his granddaughter.  They move so slowly through scenes like this, like we're supposed to be watching v-e-r-r-y closely for clues, but I think this was just a distraction.  Or, do they call it a "red herring"?

I feel like this was really just about showing the sacrifices Mike is making.  This is completely of his own doing -- both in "Talk" and in early S5 we learned that he's unable to handle his pain.  And it's led him to erect a literal as well as a metaphorical barrier between him and his loved ones.  Mike/Kayleigh scenes can border on the twee but this works for me and I think it's important.  It's also, frankly, nice to see Mike's character existing in his own right, not just as an agent of Gus as he has been for most of the season.

[scenario]

I get the feeling that Kim's revenge on Howard is something she's driven to do. There isn't any real logic to it. She's hated him for a long time with no real reason and every little real or imagined insult has made the hatred grow. 

In her mind, she's finally going to get this demon off of her and be free. Then she can turn the corner and everything will be perfect. One last unpleasant thing she has to do before she can change her life around. She's not really enjoying it now that its real. It's something she has to do. 

Then Jimmy tells her that the plan wasn't going to work and she through everything away. This was her last chance at redemption but her demons were more important. 

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I think it's telling that my post garnered two really interesting and thoughtful, but completely different interpretations.  And to be fair, clearly there's some Venn diagram overlap in Kim between a personal dislike of Howard and a dislike of what he more broadly represents, but I'm not sure either feels like enough to root a character on.

Absolutely the cornfields thing was the wrong move and even Chuck acknowledged it but I just never got any sense that this was the root of some burning enmity.  Even going back to the scene where she quits, the way it's played is not of some seething undercurrent of resentment.  And I just don't see why a slight two years ago that ultimately backfired badly is worth torpedoing your dream in the here and now.  (And just narratively, if they wanted us to make that connection, I think even as internal a show as this one would at least mention the cornfields incident obliquely after all this time.)

The idea that he represents something is interesting and is certainly consistent with the way Kim went after Kevin.  I think this is where they'll go with it but she's spent all this time fitting into that world and although I could see this as a motivation, I don't think it justifies such a radical break.

My own view was that Kim could take a perfectly rational -- if unethical and highly ill-judged -- rationale that scamming Howard was for the greater good.  A "career setback for one lawyer", especially one who probably had it coming anyway, absolutely could be seen in a utilitarian worldview as acceptable collateral damage in something that will clearly do so much good.  I also thought there was an element of her looking to turn Jimmy's penchant for trouble-making to her own ends and thereby control an otherwise loose cannon.  But this final scene basically blows that motive up.

My worry is that the way Peter Gould talks he seems to think it would be reductive to add details that would really explain her motive.  I'm just sure that's true though.  I don't think Hamlet is less complex because his motives are crystal clear to the audience.  More to the point, Gus was a much stronger character in BB where we found out new things about him at a fairly steady cadence than here where we really have no major new biographical insight in the past four years.  Or Mike who was deeply enriched by "Five-O".  The worry seems to be that explaining will be disappointing but if you explain well, it's enriching, as the show itself has proved.

Anyway, we'll see, and I certainly hope they do manage it.

There a lot of other good bits to note.  I love that the earrings get an origin.  It amazes me how many little objects get whole backstories on this show.

I also love the "cross" shot of them driving off on D-Day.  Didn't catch what was causing the cross - will need to rewatch.

I feel like this was really just about showing the sacrifices Mike is making.  This is completely of his own doing -- both in "Talk" and in early S5 we learned that he's unable to handle his pain.  And it's led him to erect a literal as well as a metaphorical barrier between him and his loved ones.  Mike/Kayleigh scenes can border on the twee but this works for me and I think it's important.  It's also, frankly, nice to see Mike's character existing in his own right, not just as an agent of Gus as he has been for most of the season.

I don't think, at this point, that the writers want the audience to "root" Kim on. I think we're meant to see her as a complex human being with significant virtues and significant flaws, with an uncertain mix of rational and irrational motivations. The irrational motivations are murkiest at this point, as they often are for people in real world, but I have a better sense of it than I did when the plot against Howard was first hatched. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Bannon

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Oh, absolutely, especially after Kim previously expressed her rage at Howard, for going out of his way to let Jimmy know that Chuck died in agony, not painlessly from inhaling toxic smoke.

IMO telling Jimmy that was sadistic.

[tennisgurl]

The title of the episode also makes me think of an axe to grind, which certainly applies to Kim, who's all consuming and irrational hatred of Howard is clearly leading her to her downfall. Its truly sad, Kim really did have good intentions at one point but she is giving it up for petty revenge and the rush of being bad. This is obviously not really about Howard as a person anymore, he's just a convenient scapegoat to every authority figure she has ever hated so that she can keep messing with this guy while telling herself she's fighting the good fight, not dicking with someone because its exciting to her. And this has to be for fun, or else this ridiculously complicated fifteen part plan to mess with Howard would seem like a complete waste of time, there have to be easier ways to discredit a person.

The scene with Jimmy and Kim at the vet was interesting, I think it said a lot about both Jimmy and Kim. Jimmy is all about the hustle, he cant understand why the vet would be intentionally giving up something so profitable, while Kim is all about drive, she can understand someone giving up easy money for something your passionate about that makes you personally satisfied. Jimmy will easily screw people over, but its not all that personal, its just a part of the hustle, while Kim feels things ridiculously hard and takes things VERY personally, she shoots to kill. As others have said much more articulately than me, Jimmy's the grind, she's the axe. He loves the game, she loves the victory. Its what she does at the end, deliberately turning away the obviously profitable thing for the thing that makes her feel personally satisfied. 

Kim's flashback with her mom was great, I can imagine that having a mom who gives her positive attention when she engages in petty crime must have left a mark on her. She tries to do what society says is the right thing, she tries to be the responsible one compared to her flighty screw up mom, but she feels special when she does something bad and gets praise for it. Her moms "didn't know you had it in you" did certainly sound like something Jimmy might have said to Kim during their early minor cons they used to run in hotel lobbies. She really likes that "nice girl gone bad" vibe, ever since she was a kid. Kudos to the casting, Kim's moms looks so much like Kim I thought that she was played by the same actress for a second, and young Kim really nails her mannerisms. 

In a cast full of fascinatingly morally grey characters, Lola is so evil that he really pales in comparison to everyone else. Not helped by the fact that he is basically on another show than everyone else, he's just running around being evil.

Edited May 17, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Maybe just a filler for time...

Part of the character study.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

IMO telling Jimmy that was sadistic.

Absolutely, and completely, rationally, worthy of extreme contempt, even hatred, in response.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

But Kim in turn wants to advise her clients about what they should and should not do as well? Doesn’t Kim feel the “poor”need her guidance and protection?  She and Jimmy lied to her client with the pregnant wife to get him to take the guilty plea. Would Kim appreciate it were it done to her? Kim is lying to Jimmy about Lalo to “protect” him— she’d rip him a new one if Jimmy did that to her.

Now, I’m not saying that Kim shouldn’t advise her clients to do the best thing legally according to her knowledge of the system. But Howard probably thought he was looking out for Kim—the hard-working, by-the-book Kim that wanted out of the mailroom. He was wrong. So, Kim resents him, doesn’t like him, OK. But the hatred? It ‘s as if she’s using Howard as the receptacle of all her anger and frustration at the unfairness in the world. And that, in itself, is not fair.

Kim’s clients COME TO HER for help. If I go see a doctor, I’m looking for their advice.  Kim didn’t seek out any “advice” from Howard. She’s not approaching people on the street offering unsolicited advice.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

But Howard probably thought he was looking out for Kim

And THIS is the problem. He was a patronizing, arrogant man thinking the clueless woman needed his “help” and “protection” from her own husband. Did he expect a thank you for that?

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Exactly what Archer(?), the ol' coot squatter, saw her as. She tried to commiserate with him about being evicted and he saw right thru her. She has all the breaks handed to her; someone paid for her to go to Law School! Who gets those breaks? Is Howard supposed to suffer for what her mommy did to her 20 years ago? These folks (J&K) hate success, Gus does so much to build and maintain respectability, and these two spit at every chance of getting what they want handed to them.

Lol at Gus working so hard to look responsible. He’s a ruthless killer who manufactures and sells poison that ruins lives. I cant compare anything Jimmy and Kim have done to that. They’re not even in the same universe. But Saul gets close in BB.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cinnabon

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Kim's flashback with her mom was great, I can imagine that having a mom who gives her positive attention when she engages in petty crime must have left a mark on her. She tries to do what society says is the right thing, she tries to be the responsible one compared to her flighty screw up mom, but she feels special when she does something bad and gets praise for it. Her moms "didn't know you had it in you" did certainly sound like something Jimmy might have said to Kim during their early minor cons they used to run in hotel lobbies. She really likes that "nice girl gone bad" vibe, ever since she was a kid. Kudos to the casting, Kim's moms looks so much like Kim I thought that she was played by the same actress for a second, and young Kim really nails her mannerisms. 

 

And as if she's internalized that people like her mom consider good girls suckers, so she's proving even while she's a hard worker, she can beat mom at her own game too.

That's an interesting theme in this series--like Jimmy and Chuck and their dad. Chuck was a stickler for following the rules, but everybody loved Jimmy. Kim's mom held her in contempt except when she proved she wasn't Chuck.

[Colorado David]

i think there's a lot of misdirection going on on the show, based on all the discourse i'm reading. i think we all have it wrong, and it's going to hit us all out of left field.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Exactly what Archer(?), the ol' coot squatter, saw her as. She tried to commiserate with him about being evicted and he saw right thru her. She has all the breaks handed to her; someone paid for her to go to Law School! Who gets those breaks? Is Howard supposed to suffer for what her mommy did to her 20 years ago? These folks (J&K) hate success, Gus does so much to build and maintain respectability, and these two spit at every chance of getting what they want handed to them.

I don’t think they hate success, they hate the obscene inequity in our cutthroat capitalist world.  A world where the rich will always be able to do what they want without many, if any, consequences. A country in which millions are literally homeless while a few elite have multiple homes. One in which a billion dollar company like Amazon can make obscene profits during a pandemic while fleecing its customers and treating their employees like disposable chattel. Where a few “succeed” solely because of nepotism and expect respect and entitlements  for that. Etc etc etc etc. I don’t understand how Gus could be considered “successful,” either. If that’s success, I’d rather fail with the knowledge that I’m not a literal murderous psychopath. Gus is barely human, imo.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cinnabon

[carrps]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Oh and, that little dog at the vet's is SO CUTE!!!!

That's what I was going to say ... what no love for adorable Fernando???

[Ellaria]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

The title of the episode also makes me think of an axe to grind, which certainly applies to Kim, who's all consuming and irrational hatred of Howard is clearly leading her to her downfall. Its truly sad, Kim really did have good intentions at one point but she is giving it up for petty revenge and the rush of being bad. This is obviously not really about Howard as a person anymore, he's just a convenient scapegoat to every authority figure she has ever hated so that she can keep messing with this guy while telling herself she's fighting the good fight, not dicking with someone because its exciting to her. And this has to be for fun, or else this ridiculously complicated fifteen part plan to mess with Howard would seem like a complete waste of time, there have to be easier ways to discredit a person.

Interesting! Kim’s choices aren’t rational right now. She is throwing away an amazing opportunity for something that is likely undefinable for her. Howard represents what she hates but she isn’t seeing past her petty revenge plan. She isn’t evaluating the alternatives. What happens if it backfires? Has she considered that option?

15 minutes ago, scenario said:

I get the feeling that Kim's revenge on Howard is something she's driven to do. There isn't any real logic to it. She's hated him for a long time with no real reason and every little real or imagined insult has made the hatred grow. 

In her mind, she's finally going to get this demon off of her and be free. Then she can turn the corner and everything will be perfect. One last unpleasant thing she has to do before she can change her life around. She's not really enjoying it now that its real. It's something she has to do.  

As you say, there is no logic to it. I do not believe that the successful execution of this plan - whatever it is - will provide her with what she is seeking. It will not enable her to turn her life around. The opportunity for her to turn her life around was in Santa Fe and she literally turned away from it.
 

42 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

My worry is that the way Peter Gould talks he seems to think it would be reductive to add details that would really explain her motive.  I'm just sure that's true though.  I don't think Hamlet is less complex because his motives are crystal clear to the audience.  More to the point, Gus was a much stronger character in BB where we found out new things about him at a fairly steady cadence than here where we really have no major new biographical insight in the past four years.  Or Mike who was deeply enriched by "Five-O".  The worry seems to be that explaining will be disappointing but if you explain well, it's enriching, as the show itself has proved.

I would like to understand her motivations a bit better. Rough childhood, OK, but that doesn’t completely explain her actions now. I would like to know more but I don’t think we will get…at least not in a way that will help me now. 

[Eulipian 5k]

12 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t understand how Gus could be considered “successful,” either.

Have you tried the Curly Fries? Gus is a pillar of the community, makes great, tasty chicken, and takes pictures with the DEA, runs a clinic in Mexico, etc. You can't make great chicken without slitting a few throats! (or Victor's).

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Have you tried the Curly Fries? Gus is a pillar of the community, makes great, tasty chicken, and takes pictures with the DEA, runs a clinic in Mexico, etc. You can't make great chicken without slitting a few throats! (or Victor's).

Victor did deserve that, I must say 🤣.

[Penman61]

46 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I don't think, at this point, that the writers want the audience to "root" Kim on. I think we're meant to see her as a complex human being with significant virtues and significant flaws, with an uncertain mix of rational and irrational motivations.

This is such an interesting point about "rooting." These creators are so, so good at exploiting that audience desire: They get us engaged with a heist-plot or con-plot minutiae, and, momentarily distracted from the morally outrageous outcome, we "root" for the cleverness of the plan.

The most extreme version of this that I recall was BB's "Dead Freight," where we were all totally transfixed by and rooting for these criminals to pull off their methylamine train robbery. And when they succeed: They're whooping, we're whooping--and then an innocent kid is shot to death.

I'm afraid we're in for another such Zen slap very very soon, though I expect it to be a bit more muffled. But who knows?

 

[Cinnabon]

Watching Jimmy and Kim slowly destroy what they have is like watching a Shakespearean tragedy. The heroes create their own downfalls because they’re extremely flawed and proud (like most human beings) and all we can do is watch and enjoy the journey.

[PeterPirate]

41 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Lol at Gus working so hard to look responsible. He’s a ruthless killer who manufactures and sells poison that ruins lives. I cant compare anything Jimmy an Kim have done that. They’re not even on the same universe. But Saul gets close in BB.

Kim and Jimmy may not be "as bad", but they are in the same universe as Gus and Lalo.  Jimmy just  schlepped $7 million of Lalo's money so he could jump bail on a murder charge.  All with Kim's complete knowledge.  

[Adiba]

51 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Kim’s clients COME TO HER for help. If I go see a doctor, I’m looking for their advice.  Kim didn’t seek out any “advice” from Howard. She’s not approaching people on the street offering unsolicited advice.

I get your point, Kim didn’t ask for Howard’s advice about Jimmy. But Howard ‘s intentions, while flawed in their basis, were those of someone who thought they were helping. He wasn’t trying to hurt Kim, he just assumed (wrongly) that she needed to know about Jimmy —yes, a little patronizing and irritating—but not evil. 

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t think they hate success, they hate the obscene inequity in our cutthroat capitalist world.  A world where the rich will always be able to do what they want without many, if any, consequences. A country in which millions are literally homeless while a few elite have multiple homes. One in which a billion dollar company like Amazon can make obscene profits during a pandemic while fleecing its customers and treating their employees like disposable chattel. Where a few “succeed” solely because of nepotism and expect respect and entitlements  for that. Etc etc etc etc. I don’t understand how Gus could be considered “successful,” either. If that’s success, I’d rather fail with the knowledge that I’m not a literal murderous psychopath. Gus is barely human, imo.

Yeah, I don't think their hatreds are anything close to being that selfless, avoiding any political debate in this forum.

[Armchair Critic]

8 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Seriously, no question that misogyny will always inform our discussions about Kim. (Note the policing of her hair in this thread!)

I was the one who posted about her ponytail. No misogyny here (I am female), just somebody who once worked in an upscale law firm and if a 40+ coworker always wore a ponytail with a curl I would have snarked on them too.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Watching Jimmy and Kim slowly destroy what they have is like watching a Shakespearean tragedy. The heroes create their own downfalls because they’re extremely flawed and proud (like most human beings) and all we can do is watch and enjoy the journey.

Agree with this completely.

[Arkay]

So Kim’s mom approved of her committing petty crime, and as an adult lawyer, Kim grew up to represent people who are like she was; poor, unable to defend themselves properly.

That Kim, and the hard-working Kim of days of yore, I like. This Kim, the U-turn Kim, I really don’t like. Putting aside everything she claimed to want, and the ability to represent poor criminals, so she can satiate her unreasonable hatred for Howard completely undermines any sympathy I ever had for her.

I think Jimmy and Kim are completely overreacting, all this juvenile stuff with hiring actors and seeking veterinarian’s drugs, just for a vendetta against Howard. 

Kim’s mother didn’t think she had it in her, and Howard and Cliff have no idea she has this in her, either.

Cliff is offering her what she claims to want, but her actions show she wants to cause pain more than she wants to help the downtrodden.
 

 

[Cinnabon]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yeah, I don't think their hatreds are anything close to being that selfless, avoiding any political debate in this forum.

It wasn’t meant to be political, just a reflection on the cutthroat current state of the world. I understand the rage and depression many feel. That doesn’t mean I agree with what Kim and Jimmy are doing. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Arkay said:

So Kim’s mom approved of her committing petty crime, and as an adult lawyer, Kim grew up to represent people who are like she was; poor, unable to defend themselves properly.

That Kim, and the hard-working Kim of days of yore, I like. This Kim, the U-turn Kim, I really don’t like. Putting aside everything she claimed to want, and the ability to represent poor criminals, so she can satiate her unreasonable hatred for Howard completely undermines any sympathy I ever had for her.

I think Jimmy and Kim are completely overreacting, all this juvenile stuff with hiring actors and seeking veterinarian’s drugs, just for a vendetta against Howard. 

Kim’s mother didn’t think she had it in her, and Howard and Cliff have no idea she has this in her, either.

Cliff is offering her what she claims to want, but her actions show she wants to cause pain more than she wants to help the downtrodden.
 

 

Jimmy and Kim are engaged, no doubt, in pure idiocy. Jimmy even knows this on some level, even as much as he hates Howard. He just can't stand in the path of Kim, if Kim wants it so badly. Kim's oblivious, as even very smart people are, when their anger, grief, and/or fear are dominating their view of the world. I've seen it many times, most often in bitter divorces and child custody battles.

[Cinnabon]

7 minutes ago, Arkay said:

So Kim’s mom approved of her committing petty crime, and as an adult lawyer, Kim grew up to represent people who are like she was; poor, unable to defend themselves properly.

That Kim, and the hard-working Kim of days of yore, I like. This Kim, the U-turn Kim, I really don’t like. Putting aside everything she claimed to want, and the ability to represent poor criminals, so she can satiate her unreasonable hatred for Howard completely undermines any sympathy I ever had for her.

I think Jimmy and Kim are completely overreacting, all this juvenile stuff with hiring actors and seeking veterinarian’s drugs, just for a vendetta against Howard. 

Kim’s mother didn’t think she had it in her, and Howard and Cliff have no idea she has this in her, either.

Cliff is offering her what she claims to want, but her actions show she wants to cause pain more than she wants to help the downtrodden.
 

 

I think she had what she thought she wanted, after years of hard work, but found working in that environment didn’t make her happy and often made her feel guilty and disgusted, even though she was very well compensated. When Jimmy wondered why the vet was giving up the shady deals and moving away to simply work as a vet , he couldn’t understand why he would give up all of that extra money. And Kim responded that the vet “knew what he wanted.” Not everyone finds happiness in making lots of money. Kim didn’t, and she seemed to have found a way to change that. It’s hard to watch her go down the wrong road when she was getting so close to a happier, more fulfilling life.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I think she had what she thought she wanted, after years of hard work, but found working in that environment didn’t make her happy and often made her feel guilty and disgusted, even though she was very well compensated. When Jimmy wondered why the vet was giving up the shady deals and moving away to simply work as a vet , he couldn’t understand why he would give up all of that extra money. And Kim responded that the vet “knew what he wanted.” Not everyone finds happiness in making lots of money. Kim didn’t, and she seemed to have found a way to change that. It’s hard to watch her go down the wrong road when she was getting so close to a happier, more fulfilling life.

Not infrequently, one of the most dispiriting, crushing, and utterly disorienting events a person can experience is to achieve a life long dream that the person has labored mightily to obtain for many, many, years. Failure to get there can be a significantly lesser emotional, even cognitive, setback.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Not infrequently, one of the most dispiriting, crushing, and utterly disorienting events a person can experience is to achieve a life long dream that the person has labored mightily to obtain for many, many, years. Failure to get there can be a significantly lesser emotional, even cognitive, setback.

I think that me part of Kim's anger. She fought tooth and nail to get to the top and when she finally got there, she hated it. Since it has to be someone's fault, she picked Howard. 

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, scenario said:

I think that me part of Kim's anger. She fought tooth and nail to get to the top and when she finally got there, she hated it. Since it has to be someone's fault, she picked Howard. 

Oh, I think it likely that plays a significant role.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Watching Jimmy and Kim slowly destroy what they have is like watching a Shakespearean tragedy. The heroes create their own downfalls because they’re extremely flawed and proud (like most human beings) and all we can do is watch and enjoy the journey.

Yup...I think that is the writers goal.

[SimplexFish]

Is it just me, or does it seem that Mikes grand daughter Kayleigh is not aging at the same rate of the BCS/BB series timelines?

Edited May 18, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Gobi]

10 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Is it just me or does it seem that Mikes grand daughter Kayleigh is not aging at the same rate of the BCS/BB series timelines?

I think they realize that her age in BCS and BB can’t be reconciled, so they’re ignoring it.

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Yeah.  I suppose the point of the scene was that Kim had it in her to commit a crime.  

I think the point isn't that a teen can commit a petty crime.  Many teens have done petty, juvenile stuff like shoplift and never committed another crime.  Teens do stupid things. She didn't even look satisfied when her mom gave her the earrings so I don't think material good was the goal.  I do think the earrings are a symbol of her mother's approval.  That she valued.

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Am I the only one here who saw Howard’s incredibly patronizing, arrogant behavior when he followed Kim off that elevator to “warn” her about Jimmy’s bowling ball shenanigans?

I would sure as hell want someone telling me if my partner were out there recklessly destroying property.  I wouldn't think it condescending that some would think me, as a law follower, would want to know about it.  I'd be concerned and want to get my partner help.

Is it condescending to think a lawyer would be concerned about her partner committing crimes and acting out?  Not IMO.  Especially when there was no advantage to doing it except to break things.

 

18 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Not everyone finds happiness in making lots of money. Kim didn’t, and she seemed to have found a way to change that. It’s hard to watch her go down the wrong road when she was getting so close to a happier, more fulfilling life.

Jimmy has always been about enriching himself. Sometimes he helps himself but that was more about paying the bills than wanting to do good.  Kim went into banking instead of another branch of law. 

On that note, I don't think working pro bono to help people would bring Kim a more fulfilling life. She's helping people who can't afford a good lawyer now and I don't look at her and think "there goes a happy woman." 

She loves the dream of it.  In fact, she looks happiest when discussing the theory of it.  She also looked happy at the theory of landing Mesa Verde. But the reality of legal aid involves actual people.  People who won't take her advice about taking a plea deal.  People who don't appreciate her efforts to "help" them. Stupid people. Greedy people.

I think she'd sour on it too eventually.

[Cinnabon]

When she got home from one of her first full days as a pro bono lawyer, she said it was probably the best day she had ever had at work. But doing that for minimum wage for any length of time isn’t easy. The system is shameful. Would she stay so fulfilled if she continued this work? Maybe. Unfortunately it looks like she’ll never know.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Kim’s clients COME TO HER for help. If I go see a doctor, I’m looking for their advice.  Kim didn’t seek out any “advice” from Howard. She’s not approaching people on the street offering unsolicited advice.

The Sandpiper clients didn't come to Kim for advice. Yet Kim has no problem deciding what's best for them.

[Irlandesa]

22 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

When she got home from one of her first full days as a pro bono lawyer, she said it was probably the best day she had ever had at work.

I have no doubt she had a honeymoon phase.