S06.E23: Reunion Part 3

[WireWrap]

Thank you for your perspective in this, MatildaMoody. I also saw a glimmer of acknowledgment with she picked up Aviva's leg and gave it back to her, but then she lost me again.

Agreed. But we also don't know if she engaged in even more of the Aviva-like behavior either. That might have been edited out as well.

With that one, I would be willing to bet it was more of:

Of course there is no wrong way to answer that, but how she answered it informed my opinion about her.

I believe Carol's behavior is being judged through the lens of Aviva's behavior, instead of as the separate entity that it is. If you take Aviva out of the equation, Carol's behavior is clearly inexcusable; however, in this case it is the result of anger from inexcusable actions against her so it is accepted and rationalized. I wonder if the situation was reversed and someone more likable had been the one to spread the ghostwriter rumors about someone less likeable and if the claims of Munchausen had come from someone like Aviva towards someone like Carol, what the reaction would have been.

If you remove the "Aviva" factor from Carole this season, would there be much to complain about Carole? For the most part, she has been harmless, crude a few times, yes, but for the most part, quite harmless. Until this season, we have NOT seen Carole get into any long lasting nasty fights with anyone. UNLIKE Aviva, who we have seen turn on a dime against Ramona/Sonja last season and against anyone that defended Carole this season, even when a HW, Kirsten, did NOT want to pick a side. My question is, what horrid behavior is Carole guilty of that was not a direct reaction to Aviva and her lies?

[comatoast]

But, was that Dr.s note good enough for the Producers/Andy/Bravo? I do NOT think they bought that note either, hence her missing from 7-8 episodes, the opening credits and blogs for those same episodes. Had Aviva really been ill, uncontrolled asthma, they could/would have filmed her getting treatment and or medical care while the others were in Montana.

 

 

I think all of them except maybe Carole said they thought she had asthma, but didn't believe it would have prevented her from going to Montana.  

We only have Carol's word about Reid's call to the producers, so we have to give her the benefit of the doubt, which I will, just because it's not raining. But that leaves us with the producers word! Maybe the producer was truthful, and maybe not. I would not put it past the producers of any of the Real Housewives shows to embellish for the sake of drama; however, for argument's sake, lets say the producer was also truthful. So what? 

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe doctors give out letters JUST to state a patient is sick. In my experience, the whole point of those letters is that it is their professional opinion that the patient in question shouldn't do something in their condition, or that the patient's condition simply makes them unable to do a particular task. 

 

So, going by my experience, Reid saying he would deliver Aviva for a spot on the show next year only tells me that she is enough of a desperate fame whore to go against her doctor's recommendation no matter the impact on her health. Shallow? Hell. Yeah. But it doesn't tell anyone anything about how sick she was or wasn't. Only the doctor’s note does. So I still have the opinion that they showed great arrogance in questioning just how sick Aviva was, even though they knew there was a doctor's note.

 

And if it wasn't enough for the producers, Andy and Bravo, then they were quite arrogant, also.

 

Scoobie, I do agree that she was overly dramatic and ridiculous. That's why some of us viewers where laughing as much as Luann.

Edited August 19, 2014 by comatoast

[ryebread]

I also didn't see Heather in that clip doing anything to incite Carole. She was telling her what Aviva had said, nothing more.

Where I thought Heather was inciting Carole is at the 23 second mark, when she was reminding Carole that she has "a career.  A career as a writer.  A cah-reeeer" and Carole says:

"You know?  I know. You don't have to explain to me.  I'm a writer."  

I interpreted Carole, putting her hands up, shaking her head and interrupting Heather to say, "I can't. No...I can't with her" to mean: 

I don't want to hear anymore right now. 

 

But Heather kept right on going.  Sometimes what a friend needs, Heather, is just for you to shut up and listen.  LIke Carole said in the other clip posted, Heather talks a lot.  That's why I felt Heather was ramping the situation up.  And then Ramona happened.

 

If Carole has felt steamrolled by Heather it will only become really obvious or not, if they're brought back for another season.  Hope so. 

[comatoast]

If you remove the "Aviva" factor from Carole this season, would there be much to complain about Carole? For the most part, she has been harmless, crude a few times, yes, but for the most part, quite harmless. Until this season, we have NOT seen Carole get into any long lasting nasty fights with anyone. UNLIKE Aviva, who we have seen turn on a dime against Ramona/Sonja last season and against anyone that defended Carole this season, even when a HW, Kirsten, did NOT want to pick a side. My question is, what horrid behavior is Carole guilty of that was not a direct reaction to Aviva and her lies?

My point is that Carol's behavior should NOT be judged by the fact that it was in direct reaction to Aviva. That shouldn't factor in when thinking about her behavior. But we agree on the rest of your post.  

Edited August 19, 2014 by comatoast

[Mozelle]

My point is that Carol's behavior should NOT be judged by the fact that it was in direct reaction to Aviva. That shouldn't factor in when thinking about her behavior. But we agree on the rest of your post.

I'm genuinely curious: Is it possible to make judgments on someone's behavior without any context (i.e., reaction to a given situation and/or person)?

[jelliebean]

 

I believe Carol's behavior is being judged through the lens of Aviva's behavior, instead of as the separate entity that it is. If you take Aviva out of the equation, Carol's behavior is clearly inexcusable; however, in this case it is the result of anger from inexcusable actions against her so it is accepted and rationalized. I wonder if the situation was reversed and someone more likable had been the one to spread the ghostwriter rumors about someone less likeable and if the claims of Munchausen had come from someone like Aviva towards someone like Carol, what the reaction would have been.

 You can't take Aviva out of the equation. If you took Aviva out of the situation there would be no situation. Carole's reaction is not a separate entity. It is a direct reaction to a woman who took glee spreading gossip because in her sad twisted mind Carole didn't give her a parade with a marching band. Aviva seems to think that everything she does deserves adulation. She is sick.

[WireWrap]

My point is that Carol's behavior should NOT be judged by the fact that it was in direct reaction to Aviva. That shouldn't factor in when thinking about her behavior. But we agree on the rest of your post.  

Even Carole has admitted she could have done/said some thing's differently, hindsight and all, but given the aggressive manor that Aviva used toward Carole, I am not sure anyone would have reacted any better than Carole. But again, had it NOT been for Aviva's lies and her relentless attacks against Carole, I highly doubt that we would have seen Carole fight back and I do not think one can separate her behavior from Aviva's onslaught. JMO

I'm genuinely curious: Is it possible to make judgments on someone's behavior without any context (i.e., reaction to a given situation and/or person)?

I do not think you can! Action - reaction, it takes an action to get a reaction!

[jelliebean]

Where I thought Heather was inciting Carole is at the 23 second mark, when she was reminding Carole that she has "a career.  A career as a writer.  A cah-reeeer" and Carole says:

"You know?  I know. You don't have to explain to me.  I'm a writer."  

I interpreted Carole, putting her hands up, shaking her head and interrupting Heather to say, "I can't. No...I can't with her" to mean: 

I don't want to hear anymore right now. 

 

But Heather kept right on going.  Sometimes what a friend needs, Heather, is just for you to shut up and listen.  LIke Carole said in the other clip posted, Heather talks a lot.  That's why I felt Heather was ramping the situation up.  And then Ramona happened.

 

If Carole has felt steamrolled by Heather it will only become really obvious or not, if they're brought back for another season.  Hope so. 

 

Where I thought Heather was inciting Carole is at the 23 second mark, when she was reminding Carole that she has "a career.  A career as a writer.  A cah-reeeer" and Carole says:

"You know?  I know. You don't have to explain to me.  I'm a writer."  

I interpreted Carole, putting her hands up, shaking her head and interrupting Heather to say, "I can't. No...I can't with her" to mean: 

I don't want to hear anymore right now. 

 

But Heather kept right on going.  Sometimes what a friend needs, Heather, is just for you to shut up and listen.  LIke Carole said in the other clip posted, Heather talks a lot.  That's why I felt Heather was ramping the situation up.  And then Ramona happened.

 

If Carole has felt steamrolled by Heather it will only become really obvious or not, if they're brought back for another season.  Hope so. 

Carole talked over Heather and Heather talked over Carole. In the end they both agreed that Aviva was worthy of an eye roll and a minute of sympathy. 

[motorcitymom65]

I'm genuinely curious: Is it possible to make judgments on someone's behavior without any context (i.e., reaction to a given situation and/or person)?

I don't think that you can.  Yes, this is an extreme example, but would anyone anywhere think it is OK to lock someone in a small cell, taking them away from their family and most of society for years on end? No, but if you understand that this is a reaction to whatever action they took, it becomes more easy to understand. There is no way to look at the situation with Carole and Aviva and take Aviva out of the equation to look at how Carole reacted. As others have said, without Aviva's action, there is no reaction for others to judge and analyze.

 

The lesson here seems to be that character matters, and that perhaps intent matters more. If the question is, would Carole's reaction have been the same had someone different, someone with less of a vile track record and evil intent have mentioned the Ghost, would the reaction by Carole and the fans have been different? Again, this is almost impossible to ascertain as we have probably never seen anyone like Aviva before.

[jelliebean]

Did we ever find out why Aviva was "deeply hurt" by Heather? 

[ginger90]

Did we ever find out why Aviva was "deeply hurt" by Heather? 

Do you mean this little tirade? Aviva to Heather,

 “Do you know what hurt me?

Do you know?

You don’t have any idea?

Do you want me to tell you?

Should I say it?

I have something that hurt me that I want you to know what it is and you should know but you don’t so do you want me to tell you or not or maybe tomorrow?”. 

I don't think she ever actually said what it was. Poor, poor Aviva.

[jelliebean]

Do you mean this little tirade? Aviva to Heather,

 “Do you know what hurt me?

Do you know?

You don’t have any idea?

Do you want me to tell you?

Should I say it?

I have something that hurt me that I want you to know what it is and you should know but you don’t so do you want me to tell you or not or maybe tomorrow?”. 

I don't think she ever actually said what it was. Poor, poor Aviva.

Yes! This is what I was referencing. F'ing Dramatic. 

Edited August 19, 2014 by jelliebean

[archer1267]

And that's why I don't believe they'll get rid of Aviva. She does cause drama, for better or worse.

 

If Andy can get rid of Jill, surely he can get rid of Aviva. He's referenced the harsh reception George got on Twitter and he'd be a tone-deaf idiot to not realize that anything involving George is going to keep the audience away. And without George, what does Aviva have? She went for her Oscar moment at the upstate farm (complete with mustering moist eyes on her Botoxed face), she threw her leg - where does she go from here?

 

Aviva is not a team player and I think that's the bottom line for Bravo. Look how pissed off Andy got when Ramona didn't want to talk about her marriage at the reunion. I'm sure Aviva's failure to participate in ANY of the trips this season was not unnoticed - and I'm sure Andy didn't appreciate Reid trying to broker a deal on her behalf.

 

(I hope I'm not giving Andy too much credit here.)

[motorcitymom65]

If Andy can get rid of Jill, surely he can get rid of Aviva. He's referenced the harsh reception George got on Twitter and he'd be a tone-deaf idiot to not realize that anything involving George is going to keep the audience away. And without George, what does Aviva have? She went for her Oscar moment at the upstate farm (complete with mustering moist eyes on her Botoxed face), she threw her leg - where does she go from here?

 

Aviva is not a team player and I think that's the bottom line for Bravo. Look how pissed off Andy got when Ramona didn't want to talk about her marriage at the reunion. I'm sure Aviva's failure to participate in ANY of the trips this season was not unnoticed - and I'm sure Andy didn't appreciate Reid trying to broker a deal on her behalf.

 

(I hope I'm not giving Andy too much credit here.)

This deal with Aviva is the real Trifecta. Production hates her, as evidenced by them removing her from the credits on the episodes she missed, the fans for the most part detest her, and her co-workers - even one of the gals that still films with her - believes she is vile. If she survives this then I will assume she has some compromising photos of a Bravo executive stashed away.

[Almost 3000]

Aviva is friends with Jill. I wouldn't be surprised if they both come back.

[ScoobieDoobs]

and I'm sure Andy didn't appreciate Reid trying to broker a deal on her behalf.

 

Well, ladies, picture your husband approaching your boss, saying he'll "deliver you" (apparently what charmless Reid did say) to work -- only if your boss guarantees you'll still have a job.  Think that would go well with any boss?  And these producers seem like exceptionally nasty assholes -- every last one of 'em, including (and most of all), the queen bee, Andy Cohen.

[comatoast]

Responding to Mozelle, Jelliebean and WireWrap:

 

Yes, context matters. However, in this particular situation the context is resulting in a white-wash of Carol's behavior, in which the severity of two of her actions, in particular, is not being recognized. That's where I say you have to take the polarizing figure and her actions out of the equation and just look at what Carol's actions were.

 

Those two actions that, in my opinion, elevated Carol's behavior to the beyond the pale level's of Aviva's behavior, were: the face-grab in the staircase, and the claims of a specific mental disorder on national TV.

 

[Mozelle]

Responding to Mozelle, Jelliebean and WireWrap:

 

Yes, context matters. However, in this particular situation the context is resulting in a white-wash of Carol's behavior, in which the severity of two of her actions, in particular, is not being recognized. That's where I say you have to take the polarizing figure and her actions out of the equation and just look at what Carol's actions were.

 

Those two actions that, in my opinion, elevated Carol's behavior to the beyond the pale level's of Aviva's behavior, were: the face-grab in the staircase, and the claims of a specific mental disorder on national TV.

 

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying. That said, I'm not whitewashing Carole's face grab. I think she had no business putting her hands on Aviva, and it's unfortunate that she ever took it there. I think it was a low moment for Carole. As far as her comment about Munchausen goes, I still don't think it's any worse than someone saying (on any of the HWs shows or any other reality TV show), "That bitch is crazy!" or "She's a hypochondriac!"

 

Could someone take offense to the term "crazy" or "hypochondriac"? Certainly, but I'm not taking it as any of these women giving a specific diagnosis of another woman. 

[comatoast]

Oh, OK. I see what you're saying. That said, I'm not whitewashing Carole's face grab. I think she had no business putting her hands on Aviva, and it's unfortunate that she ever took it there. I think it was a low moment for Carole. As far as her comment about Munchausen goes, I still don't think it's any worse than someone saying (on any of the HWs shows or any other reality TV show), "That bitch is crazy!" or "She's a hypochondriac!"

 

Could someone take offense to the term "crazy" or "hypochondriac"? Certainly, but I'm not taking it as any of these women giving a specific diagnosis of another woman. 

See, had she just stuck to "that bitch is crazy!" I would have been co-signing left and right. But we agree on one out of two, not bad.

[WireWrap]

Responding to Mozelle, Jelliebean and WireWrap:

 

Yes, context matters. However, in this particular situation the context is resulting in a white-wash of Carol's behavior, in which the severity of two of her actions, in particular, is not being recognized. That's where I say you have to take the polarizing figure and her actions out of the equation and just look at what Carol's actions were.

 

Those two actions that, in my opinion, elevated Carol's behavior to the beyond the pale level's of Aviva's behavior, were: the face-grab in the staircase, and the claims of a specific mental disorder on national TV.

 

The problem is that Carole's REACTION would NOT have occurred had it not been for Aviva's initial ACTION! We have not seen Carole act out in that manor during the prior season or even in this season with anyone else BUT we have seen Aviva go stark raving mad over nothing with other HWs.

 

Carole WAS wrong to grab Aviva's face, that is never a good idea or an acceptable reaction. We do NOT know if she apologized for doing so because we did not hear or see it done but the mere fact that Aviva did not keep bringing it up suggests that she did, my guess it occurred at their beach sit down. As for Carole's claim that Aviva has a mental illness, I did not think it was that big a deal, others, including Ramona/Sonja, have questioned Aviva's mental health for 2 seasons now.

 

Again though, have we seen Carole act like this to ANY other HW in the 2 seasons she has been on? NO! Have we seen Aviva act in this manner to ANY other HW in the 2 seasons she has been on? YES! For me, just me, Carole's reactions to Aviva were ABNORMAL for her, whereas Aviva's actions toward Carole were NORMAL for her. Carole, herself, has already said she made mistakes in dealing with Aviva through all of this, "bookgate". We have yet to hear anything close to that from Aviva.

Edited August 19, 2014 by WireWrap

[ryebread]

That's where I say you have to take the polarizing figure and her actions out of the equation and just look at what Carol's actions were.

 

Those two actions that, in my opinion, elevated Carol's behavior to the beyond the pale level's of Aviva's behavior, were: the face-grab in the staircase, and the claims of a specific mental disorder on national TV.

The Munchausen thing didn't stand out for me as much because it was more of the same:  the others thinking they knew that Aviva was lying about her illnesses.  Just more of the same. ZzZZzzzz

 

In addition to the face grab, I'm going to add Carole's blog entry when she attacks Reid's career.  Sure, she wouldn't have done it if there'd never been an Aviva, but she went there.  In light of how horrible career trashing is, she still went there. Which just shows she's capbable and not above it.

[Diane Mars]

... Could someone take offense to the term "crazy" or "hypochondriac"? Certainly, but I'm not taking it as any of these women giving a specific diagnosis of another woman. 

"Hypochondriac" is a mental illness and is at the same level than "Münchausen". That's a kind of diagnosis too...

 

Regarding the "face grab", I think we should keep in mind that Carol and Aviva are supposed to be close, as, if I'm not mistaken, carol is the godmother of Aviva's son ! That could explain that kind of... familiarity !

Edited August 19, 2014 by Diane Mars

[Trooper York]

The funniest part of the video when Carole grabbed Aviva's face on those steep stairs was edited out. If you read her lips Carole said "Who is gonna check me Boo."

[mmepeacock]

In addition to the face grab, I'm going to add Carole's blog entry when she attacks Reid's career.  Sure, she wouldn't have done it if there'd never been an Aviva, but she went there.  In light of how horrible career trashing is, she still went there. Which just shows she's capbable and not above it.

I've seen this referenced and need to ask: when exactly did Carole trash Reid's career? I don't remember her doing this even as a hypothetical, but I do zone in and out of this stuff to preserve some brain cells....

 

In terms of reactions, I support Carole in all her feelings and most of her reactions.

 

I do stand by my thoughts that it would have been much smarter to be cool about the situation and not give the storyline any strength. That goes for Carole and Heather. It was barely an insult. Aviva doesn't matter.

 

But Carole was clearly too outraged to just roll her eyes and avoid Aviva as a non-well-wisher. And, of course, Carole the Real Housewife needed a storyline. She gets to play protagonist to Aviva's antagonist, so it's great for her to let Aviva loose and be cool.

 

Her best move? Handing back the leg, carefully. Otherwise, that would have been another "moment" for Aviva--to get the leg back, limp around, make dramatic motions for sympathy-and Carole managed a moment of grace. (I don't discount it for saying Aviva needs help. Without knowing ANYTHING, I'd say a person who pulls their own EXPENSIVE artificial limb off, throws it on the table, then towards someone onto the floor, is BTSC or drunk)

 

But the face-grab? Not cool in these circumstances, not cool in almost any circumstance (I might make an exception if someone spit on me, but then again, I might also be too busy beating them over the head with a fake leg)

 

Back to my original point. Aviva engaged in malicious gossip. Has Carole done the same re: Aviva?

Edited August 19, 2014 by mmepeacock

[sasha206]

Carol and Heather (and Kristin and Ramona) showed great arrogance when they continued to question Aviva's health, even AFTER they were all aware of the doctor's note. The letter from the doctor should have been the end of that story. If it is good enough for court and good enough for employers it should have been good enough for Carol, Heather and the rest.

 

Did they stop? Oh, no, they continued as if they knew better than Aviva's doctor what her health condition was at the time. Carol even put forth her own diagnoses. When people don't believe a doctor's diagnosis of his own patient, they are implying that doctor is either incompetent or has no ethics and will just give anyone a note to get out of anything.

 

I totally agreed with this. 

 

And frankly, as much as I don't like Aviva, I cringed when Heather said her only story line was her "fake leg."  

[comatoast]

The Munchausen thing didn't stand out for me as much because it was more of the same:  the others thinking they knew that Aviva was lying about her illnesses.  Just more of the same. ZzZZzzzz

 

I think the reason it stood out for me was how specific it was. There is speculation, there is gossip, and then there is saying this person has this specific disorder and explaining the specific disorder. On national TV.

For a mother in charge of the care of her children, Munchausen in particular, can put into question her competency as a parent and her ability to provide a healthy environment, in a way that saying she can't be without Reid, or that she's crazy, or even that she has many phobias, does not, IMO.  But maybe I'm just reading into it because I know this has happened.

 

We can't say for sure if the rumor will have an impact on Carol's career, and we also can't say for sure if claiming Munchausen will have an impact on Aviva's life, but In my opinion, they were both at the same level of low.

[Mozelle]

I've seen this referenced and need to ask: when exactly did Carole trash Reid's career? I don't remember her doing this even as a hypothetical, but I do zone in and out of this stuff to preserve some brain cells....

 

 

The only thing I recall is from Carole's blog on one of the earlier episodes:

 

Reid is pitching in now, ganging up on me in the Drescher slander/smear campaign, and he's also implicating Simon & Schuster. I’m surprised he would engage in this at all, I'd think he would know better. I expect Reid to understand the nuance of business relationships and slander. Imagine if I went on the show and told Ramona or Kristen that word on the street is Reid’s client’s are suing him for misappropriation of funds, or that word on the street is the SEC is investigating his business practices. Hey you guys, there’s a lot of gossip going around. There are a whole bunch of words, on lots of streets! I would think Reid would understand the implications of what he is saying, even if his wife is clueless. But no.

 

[Almost 3000]

"Hypochondriac" is a mental illness and is at the same level than "Münchausen". That's a kind of diagnosis too...

 

Regarding the "face grab", I think we should keep in mind that Carol and Aviva are supposed to be close, as, if I'm not mistaken, carol is the godmother of Aviva's son ! That could explain that kind of... familiarity !

I've never heard of any Carol, Aviva connection.

[WireWrap]

The Munchausen thing didn't stand out for me as much because it was more of the same:  the others thinking they knew that Aviva was lying about her illnesses.  Just more of the same. ZzZZzzzz

 

In addition to the face grab, I'm going to add Carole's blog entry when she attacks Reid's career.  Sure, she wouldn't have done it if there'd never been an Aviva, but she went there.  In light of how horrible career trashing is, she still went there. Which just shows she's capbable and not above it.

Yes, Carole does mention Reid's legal issue in 1 of her blogs. She mentions something that has been out there in the public since before Aviva/Reid joined the show. As far as I know, Please correct me if I am wrong, there was never a reputable news story that claimed Carole used a GW BEFORE she joined the show. 

Edited August 19, 2014 by WireWrap

[jaync]

I also didn't see Heather in that clip doing anything to incite Carole. She was telling her what Aviva had said, nothing more. The person trying to get Carole to be confrontational, on camera, was Ramona.

Well, Ramona's Ramona,  you know, and apparently the only HW that gets to bring up previously filmed scenes.

 

For a mother in charge of the care of her children, Munchausen in particular, can put into question her competency as a parent and her ability to provide a healthy environment, in a way that saying she can't be without Reid, or that she's crazy, or even that she has many phobias, does not, IMO.

How so? Carole didn't accuse Aviva of having MSbP.

[WireWrap]

"Hypochondriac" is a mental illness and is at the same level than "Münchausen". That's a kind of diagnosis too...

 

Regarding the "face grab", I think we should keep in mind that Carol and Aviva are supposed to be close, as, if I'm not mistaken, carol is the godmother of Aviva's son ! That could explain that kind of... familiarity !

This is from Carole's twitter page. Someone asks her about Sonja's claim that Carole is Aviva's daughter's GM,

 

From Carole's twitter........

Carole Radziwill ‏@caroleradziwill · 14h

No that is not true. She's adorbs but I only saw her a couple times. I don't know them well. I have 5 god kids!

[shoegal]

I think the reason it stood out for me was how specific it was. There is speculation, there is gossip, and then there is saying this person has this specific disorder and explaining the specific disorder. On national TV.

For a mother in charge of the care of her children, Munchausen in particular, can put into question her competency as a parent and her ability to provide a healthy environment, in a way that saying she can't be without Reid, or that she's crazy, or even that she has many phobias, does not, IMO.  But maybe I'm just reading into it because I know this has happened.

 

We can't say for sure if the rumor will have an impact on Carol's career, and we also can't say for sure if claiming Munchausen will have an impact on Aviva's life, but In my opinion, they were both at the same level of low.

I believe if Carole had stated that someone from Aviva's doctors office told her that Aviva had been diagnosed with Munchausen, there would be a case for a comparison.  As it stands now, it's quite a leap.

 

Edited to fix a typo, because "is" is not "if". 

Edited August 26, 2014 by shoegal

[jelliebean]

Responding to Mozelle, Jelliebean and WireWrap:

 

Yes, context matters. However, in this particular situation the context is resulting in a white-wash of Carol's behavior, in which the severity of two of her actions, in particular, is not being recognized. That's where I say you have to take the polarizing figure and her actions out of the equation and just look at what Carol's actions were.

 

Those two actions that, in my opinion, elevated Carol's behavior to the beyond the pale level's of Aviva's behavior, were: the face-grab in the staircase, and the claims of a specific mental disorder on national TV.

Carole did not GRAB Aviva's face. Watch it again. Carole touched her face and Aviva said "don't touch me". As far as Munchausen goes Aviva does rely on her phobias to garner sympathy. Aviva uses what happened to her 40 years ago to dismiss how awful she is. Anyone who calls her out for being a brat is horrible because she lost part of the leg. Aviva thinks she can be as nasty as she wants to be and everyone has to fall in line. Her father is a pig, her first husband is a hot mess and Reid is a schmuck who refers to the other housewives as fat old women gone wild. 

You just can't take that out of the mix.

[ryebread]

Why wasn't Kristen asked about splashing Ramona?  Never got why she got a pass on that-she didn't do it to be playful she did it because she wanted to annoy Ramona and was hoping for a reaction or more likely an over reaction. 

 

Bravo needs to stop pouring energy (especially into a declining franchise) into the person everyone loves to hate.  I was really quite happy when Aviva was NOT on the show.

 

None of the others took the hits they should have.  Does Carole really edit Wiki?  Why does Sonja need to hit on every male aged 17 - 87?  Is the rodeo really the best thing Heather has ever seen? And it's because Bravo was spending too much time on the one that NOBODY wanted to see more of.

 

That's probably the main reason I don't want her back for another season. She is too much of a shield for the other ladies to hide behind.

Interesting.  I was just going to say that maybe they'll rue the day that Aviva was fired (if she has been) because now the heat will be on them.  But no, they hate her  too much and they probably figure that their chances of being the 'Most Hated Housewife EVER' next season will be, what, 1 in 6?  1 in 7?  They probably prefer those odds than having to deal with Aviva for another season. 

[MatildaMoody]

 

Why wasn't Kristen asked about splashing Ramona?  Never got why she got a pass on that-she didn't do it to be playful she did it because she wanted to annoy Ramona and was hoping for a reaction or more likely an over reaction.

I thought Kristen splashed Ramona for the same reason that Heather did, to make her aware that both of them were right there and could hear her trashing Kristen and Josh. 

 

I'm more interested in why Ramona attacked Kristen and not Heather. Maybe she figured that Kristen was much more easily bullied than Heather because Heather is a rooster?

Edited August 20, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[comatoast]

Carole did not GRAB Aviva's face. Watch it again. Carole touched her face and Aviva said "don't touch me". As far as Munchausen goes Aviva does rely on her phobias to garner sympathy. Aviva uses what happened to her 40 years ago to dismiss how awful she is. Anyone who calls her out for being a brat is horrible because she lost part of the leg. Aviva thinks she can be as nasty as she wants to be and everyone has to fall in line. Her father is a pig, her first husband is a hot mess and Reid is a schmuck who refers to the other housewives as fat old women gone wild. 

You just can't take that out of the mix.

 

She had one finger on one side of her face and the others on the other side of her face. It's more of a grab to me, but OK, let's say touch. When she touched her, she was standing above Aviva, who was standing sideways in the middle landing of a stairway with yet more stairs to her right. The touch caused Aviva to take a step back, again, in the middle landing of a stairway with more steps on one side of her.  Anyone could have easily lost their balance. The point remains that it was grossly inappropriate. But if more context is needed: they were arguing, both giving as good as they were getting, and, to the best of my knowledge, Aviva had not touched Carol. So it was also a violation of physical boundaries.

 

As for the rest, I agree with everything else, except she could have just said: “I believe she uses her phobias to garner sympathy.” No need to claim she has a specific disorder. But I'll just have to agree to disagree with those of you who think otherwise.

 

Back on topic:

I'm really curious if the episode that aired on Bravo had all the "fucks" and "fuckers" censored like the episode available for streaming. That was the funniest part for me! The way Heather just kept saying motherfucker to explain what motherfucker is. It had to have been a record number of f-bombs for a reunion, particularly since they weren't even having an angry screaming match at that point.

Edited August 21, 2014 by comatoast

[Souvlaki]

Heather was wrong. Biographies are always written by someone other than the subject. Autobiographies can be ghostwritten and sometimes the ghostwriter is given credit.

I have a question about the publishing world. Does someone who has a book deal already in the works hire an editor or is the editor provided by the publishing company?

I wonder if it wasn't mostly sly digs at Aviva,but I'm not sure. Most of the things (and I'm aware I'm just rationalizing only because I like Heather) were jarring and didn't really sound like they'd come out of her mouth in all sincerity, the mouth of a good friend of a writer. I thought I caught sarcasm in there ... but it can be too hard, sometimes, to read tone through text.

You know that moment, when you're done watching a really nice film and it ends, or let's say, writing online or very focused on something and get an interruption, that momentary strange feeling you get, when your head - miles away from the rest of your senses - suddenly returns, jumps back to where you truly are in reality? I don't think Sonja or Aviva know about that feeling, or it's been quite a long time. Why doesn't Sonja ghost-write a book of fiction? Surely she ain't lacking for imagination, and she's friends with Aviva who can help,they can go to her village. You know what they say about villages, well this one's got two. Wink.

Eta: I must confess I didn't watch the whole reunion, I did the same with BH. First time for everything I guess, you guys who watched, thank you for writing, the posts were so great.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Souvlaki

[jelliebean]

She had one finger on one side of her face and the others on the other side of her face. It's more of a grab to me, but OK, let's say touch. When she touched her, she was standing above Aviva, who was standing sideways in the middle landing of a stairway with yet more stairs to her right. The touch caused Aviva to take a step back, again, in the middle landing of a stairway with more steps on one side of her.  Anyone could have easily lost their balance. The point remains that it was grossly inappropriate. But if more context is needed: they were arguing, both giving as good as they were getting, and, to the best of my knowledge, Aviva had not touched Carol. So it was also a violation of physical boundaries.

 

As for the rest, I agree with everything else, except she could have just said: “I believe she uses her phobias to garner sympathy.” No need to claim she has a specific disorder. But I'll just have to agree to disagree with those of you who think otherwise.

 

Back on topic:

I'm really curious if the episode that aired on Bravo had all the "fucks" and "fuckers" censored like the episode available for streaming. That was the funniest part for me! The way Heather just kept saying motherfucker to explain what motherfucker is. It had to have been a record number of f-bombs for a reunion, particularly since they weren't even having an angry screaming match at that point.

Can't argue that Aviva was standing on a landing with stairs to the left and right of her. So what? Aviva was screaming about how Carole wasn't there for her.  I can argue that both gave as good as they got. Aviva went nasty with the Kennedy reference. Don't do it. JFK Jr was the best man at her wedding. Don't try to denigrate that relationship.  If Aviva wants respect she should give it.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Lisin
fixed quote

[Souvlaki]

I think all of them except maybe Carole said they thought she had asthma, but didn't believe it would have prevented her from going to Montana. Aviva kept changing her story bout that -- to the point where she would have dropped dead on the ground, had she got off the plane & met the wheelchair in Montana. She was so overly dramatic, she sounded ridiculous & silly. Showing the x-rays on the finale was idiotic. It proved nothing, since it didn't actually show she had asthma. That was weird. Tough fuckin' shit, Aviva. I like sayin' that word again cuz it makes me feel like I'm 14. And yeah, Veevs, you are fuckin' weird.

You make me laugh so much sometimes, thank you. Maybe she also why she flipped in Aviballistic fashion, when questioned, maybe it's in those crazy Bravo contracts that they've gotta prove they might suffocate and die on a trip, in order not to go.

As for the Carol face-grab, I thought that was over the line, yes, to invade her space, but let that all go I suppose, when she was the only one seemingly thoughtful enough to retrieve her leg from Aviva after she chucked it.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Souvlaki

[Higgins]

 

I believe is Carole had stated that someone from Aviva's doctors office told her that Aviva had been diagnosed with Munchausen, there would be a case for a comparison.  As it stands now, it's quite a leap.

Holy hipaa violation! That's all kinds of wrong.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Higgins

[shoegal]

Holy hipaa violation! That's all kinds of wrong.

 

Yes, that's all kinds of wrong, because it's a typo.  It should say **if** Carole had stated that some from Aviva's doctors office told her....

 

Clearly, Carole did not state this.  Therefore, it's not all kinds or wrong or a HIPPA violation.  Sorry for the confusion. 

[slade3]

Why is it offensive and inappropriate to call yourself a Christian in the presence of non-Christians?

I found it offensive to say "I can forgive because I'm a Christian" because it implies non-Christians don't have the capacity to forgive. If that is not what Sonja meant, she wouldn't have said it that way. "I am a forgiving person" is sufficient. As a Christian woman married to a Jewish man, I know exactly what people mean when they say that to me, and it has been said often by Christians who don't approve of our marriage and want me to know my husband is different. I assume, by Andy's reaction, he also took it as a slight.

[archer1267]

I'm a Christian and have always found that term "Christian forgiveness" to be ridiculous. How I think Sonja meant it, though, was this: "I can forgive because I am a person of faith, and part of my belief system is to give others a second chance."