S02.E06: Two of One

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

With the help of Tallinn, Picard and the crew infiltrate a gala on the eve of a joint space mission, to protect one of the astronauts they believe to be integral to the restoration of the timeline -- Renee Picard. Kore makes a startling discovery about her father's work.

Dropping Thursday, April 7, 2022.

[NeenerNeener]

If that actually was Pill singing, she's got one hell of a voice.  Maybe she should consider changing careers.

[paigow]

How does Jurati know Pat Benatar songs? The band should know Sinatra... but how would she know a 40 / 400 year old song? 

[dwmarch]

I am enjoying this show so far but I have to call out that clutch musical number by Agnes. Consider this sentence for a moment: the Borg Queen distracts a room full of guards by getting one of Picard's crew to perform Pat Benatar karaoke. Although I guess it wasn't really a solo because the band joined in during an impressive display of their "hum a few bars and we'll fake it" skills. Or did the Borg Queen assimilate them too? It would have been hilarious to pan around behind the band members to see each one had a cord plugged in to the back of their necks.

Also did they really enable stealth mode on JLP just by pinning a name tag to him? All the guards were after him and then all of a sudden they just forget. He really does belong to the night!

What good is that synth body of Picard's? That car should have bounced right off of him (if it even hit him at all, I thought Teslas had some collision avoidance automatic braking system). But instead he bleeds, he has cardiac problems and he ends up in a coma so we can have the obligatory walk through Picard's psyche episode. Worst of all, unlike Data, Picard doesn't have an on/off button.

Speaking of on/off buttons, I am under the impression that an EMP fries electronics, it doesn't just momentarily inconvenience them. I guess the Borg have special ones that don't burn things up.

NotLaris sure got used to taking orders from Picard with the quickness. I guess he's just got that much of a commanding presence.

We missed a golden opportunity for another awkward TNG title drop here when Picard was telling Renee about "the light" and somehow whiffed on describing it as "the inner light". Don't get caught up in a conspiracy, abide by your code of honor and stay away from the place where silence has lease! That way you can have the best of both worlds!

So the Borg Queen, now in control of a new body, just wants to make out with Rios, sing karaoke and walk around barefoot on the streets of LA? Well, that's not so bad I guess. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Speculation as to where this season is heading and I hope I am wrong: so Picard's mother was in an abusive relationship and that is why Picard was never seriously involved with anyone? Because he's afraid that he might abuse a spouse? Look, production team. Just because Picard wore a wife beater in Insurrection does not mean you have to make him a literal wife beater. It's not the kind of character development I thought he was lacking.

Edited April 7, 2022 by dwmarch
emphasis

[paigow]

Renee Picard must be very confused that the nice old security guard is Admiral

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Speculation as to where this season is heading and I hope I am wrong: so Picard's mother was in an abusive relationship and that is why Picard was never seriously involved with anyone? 

I'm pretty sure we'll eventually learn just the opposite - that Picard thinks he has memories of an abusive relationship between his parents, but he is remembering through the eyes of a child who didn't understand what was happening. I think we will learn that something else entirely was going on, and realising that and letting go of what he's always believed will be cathartic for him. (I also don't think he's held back from love for fear of becoming abusive, but I do think a lot of his rigid self-control stems from not wanting to turn into his father, who we already know from TNG was a very difficult man, and that has fed into his fear of commitment)

It was established in season one that the new-style synthetic bodies are basically flesh and blood, little different than ours, just created instead of born. The golem Soong created for himself and then donated to Picard was grown in a vat. We've seen that this style of synthetic can be killed - look how easily Sutra killed that other synth last season, just by stabbing her in the eye. Dahj and Soji were given slightly tougher bodies and greater fighting skills, necessary for their undercover mission, but even they were vulnerable. Dahj was badly burned by acid before being blown up, the gas Narek released would have killed Soji if she hadn't escaped. And they both passed as fully human for several years without anyone realising they were synths, including themselves. So Picard's new synthetic body being as vulnerable as any other flesh and blood body tracks with what has been established for this new generation of synthetics.

Of course, the body he is currently wearing isn't his own but Confederation Picard's - but the Confederation is so intensely xenophobic, so intensely human supremacist, it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that they'd want any synthetic bodies they transplanted their minds into to be fully human, as far as possible, with no nasty alien augmentation. Or whatever.

This episode was a bit short, there were a few places they could have done with a bit more explanation - where did Renee go after the accident? how did the gang get Picard to the clinic? Answering those questions would have bulked out the run time a bit - but there were some lovely character interactions. Raffi and Rios hanging out, being best buddies like last season - Rios being a goofy, excited nerd about 21st century stuff and so proud of Theresa's accomplishments, Raffi teasing him about his crush on Theresa and then warning him about his crush on Theresa, confiding in him about Seven, that little forehead kiss. 😍 Seven enjoying being so carefree without her Borg implants and Raffi also enjoying it for her. Rios worrying about Agnes and their whole little chat - he was not into that kiss, though, he might still care about her and worry about her, but he is definitely over her. Picard's lovely little talk with Renee. The looks on everyone's faces when Tallinn suggested going into Picard's mind to help him resolve whatever's going on in there. I don't even care about minor plot niggles when I'm getting character interactions like this! But character interactions like this do make me wish the season was more episodic - what I wouldn't give to see this gang just hanging out, bickering and bantering and bonding through a few lower stakes adventures. They need that. They deserve that. I want my spin-off already! (Pretty please, CBS, let us have a spin-off with these characters. Or at least some of them).

Edited April 7, 2022 by Llywela

[thuganomics85]

So, either Agnes or the Borg Queen are a fan of Pat Benatar.  Not sure which one would be more interesting (really, with the collective at her disposal, the Borg Queen should know everything about pop culture now: human and otherwise!)  Not surprised it all ended with the Queen officially taking over Agnes' body, which I'm sure is just going to b a bit of a problem going forward!

Looks like the gang briefly thwarted Q's attempts to make Renee quit, but it comes at a cost of Picard getting hit by a car (courtesy of Dr. Soong), and is now in a coma.  But, hey, it looks like The Observer/NotLaris is just going to make a quick trip into his mind and fix all of that!

Yeah, Rios, if you want to impressive the nice hot doctor, maybe don't try to frame her son for the mysteriously exploding medical equipment.  And then swear that you and your shady gang are totally the good guys.  Need to brush up on your flirting skills there, Casanova.

Kore figures out that she is actually a clone more or less and that Dr. Soong pretty much just sees her as his creation and not his actual daughter.

Wish I was a fly on the all during the Picard/Soong scene because knowing how close the New Generation crew is, I can only imagine the antics that were going down with Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner, and Jonathan Frakes in the directing chair.  Must have felt like old times!

[Stardancer Supreme]

I am perfectly okay with Agnes Borg Queen singing Pat Benatar. They clearly have taste.

So Adam Soong is just as nutty as the other Soongs.  I want to know how he was able to generate so many clones of a daughter long dead... And what are the odds that every clone had something wrong with her?

Seeing JLP on the ground and flashing back to what actually happened was jarring for me, at least.  Having Soong just roll up on him at the party was creepy as hell! Then I was pissed off at him attempting to run Renee over.  Did Q mean for him to kill Renee Picard?

What this episode needed was Q.  I still want to know what his deal is and why he can't use his powers here to his satisfaction.

And where is Borg Queen Agnes going? 

 

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

This episode was a bit short, there were a few places they could have done with a bit more explanation - where did Renee go after the accident? How did the gang get Picard to the clinic? Answering those questions would have bulked out the run time a bit - but there were some lovely character interactions. Raffi and Rios hanging out, being best buddies like last season - Rios being a goofy, excited nerd about 21st century stuff and so proud of Theresa's accomplishments, Raffi teasing him about his crush on Theresa and then warning him about his crush on Theresa, confiding in him about Seven, that little forehead kiss. 😍 Seven enjoying being so carefree without her Borg implants and Raffi also enjoying it for her. Rios worrying about Agnes and their whole little chat - he was not into that kiss, though, he might still care about her and worry about her, but he is definitely over her. Picard's lovely little talk with Renee. The looks on everyone's faces when Tallinn suggested going into Picard's mind to help him resolve whatever's going on in there. I don't even care about minor plot niggles when I'm getting character interactions like this! But character interactions like this do make me wish the season was more episodic - what I wouldn't give to see this gang just hanging out, bickering and bantering and bonding through a few lower stakes adventures. They need that. They deserve that. I want my spin-off already! (Pretty please, CBS, let us have a spin-off with these characters. Or at least some of them).

Agreed. I did enjoy the crew interaction.  Raffi does need to tell someone that she is seeing Elnor everywhere she goes.  Maybe she needs to have that grief breakdown before it ends up impacting the mission.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

And where is Borg Queen Agnes going? 

The current location of 10 Forward... maybe Alt!Guinan has not finished closing it down....

[MissLucas]

Looks like that was really Alison Pill singing - she had several singing parts in her career. Here is she singing Time after Time.

As I said last week - I'm so over Dr Soong and his defunct offspring. Now we have another android with an identity crisis at our hands. 

The interesting plots are Raffi and her visions of Elnor and the Jurati-Borg Queen combo. Of course we now have Jurati being compromised by another alien for the second time but it took some unexpected turns I quite enjoyed. I liked Raffi pointing out how Seven must enjoy to travel lightly - and it seems the Borg Queen is seeking something similar by way of using Jurati. Of course she's also plotting evil schemes, she can multitask.

What exactly was Talin doing all those years when she never interfered and the code won't allow her to do that? How's that protecting? And did we get an explanation why she looks like Laris?

I wish I was more interested in Picard's childhood trauma.

[marinw]

Sir Patrick still looks good in a tux.

Kore never researched Dad's work before?

[Lokiberry]

Am I understanding this right: the Eugenics War, Khan and his followers, were all caused (or at least the genetic experiments that created them) by Soong and his wacky experiments? If so, wow, that family is a menace. What's Q's role in all this? Is he going to give Soong something to make Kore stable, and thus create a race of supermen which all leads to Ricardo Montalban trying to take over the world? 

I can't help wondering if what's going on with Renee is a red herring. With Mad Scientist Soong and Agnes and The Borg Queen, there's just so many shenanigans at play it's hard to see what's the actual endgame. 

 

[paigow]

23 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Am I understanding this right: the Eugenics War, Khan and his followers, were all caused (or at least the genetic experiments that created them) by Soong and his wacky experiments?

If this is the Prime TOS time;ine, Khan and crew left 30 years ago... 

[salaydouk]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

 there were some lovely character interactions. Raffi and Rios hanging out, being best buddies like last season - Rios being a goofy, excited nerd about 21st century stuff and so proud of Theresa's accomplishments, Raffi teasing him about his crush on Theresa and then warning him about his crush on Theresa, confiding in him about Seven, that little forehead kiss. 😍 Seven enjoying being so carefree without her Borg implants and Raffi also enjoying it for her. Rios worrying about Agnes and their whole little chat - he was not into that kiss, though, he might still care about her and worry about her, but he is definitely over her. Picard's lovely little talk with Renee. The looks on everyone's faces when Tallinn suggested going into Picard's mind to help him resolve whatever's going on in there. I don't even care about minor plot niggles when I'm getting character interactions like this! But character interactions like this do make me wish the season was more episodic - what I wouldn't give to see this gang just hanging out, bickering and bantering and bonding through a few lower stakes adventures. They need that. They deserve that. I want my spin-off already! (Pretty please, CBS, let us have a spin-off with these characters. Or at least some of them).

Agreed the character interactions where fun... and I second the want for a spinoff with these characters without Picard.  Though I am starting to wonder if Rios' is going to say in 2024? 

11 hours ago, paigow said:

How does Jurati know Pat Benatar songs? The band should know Sinatra... but how would she know a 40 / 400 year old song? 

Well if you go by that logic, then how did the TNG crew know about Mozart and Beethoven or want to attend string quartet playing their music at 10-Forward?  Some things just transcend time... I am mean Sinatra was at his peak nearly 90 years ago, Elvis was at his peak nearly 70 years ago and the Beetles were peaking 50-60 years ago but I guarantee there are _huge_ numbers of people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s that are very familiar with the majority of the musical catalogs for all three.  And my goodness Tony Bennet had a resurgence in the 90s that continued up until recently when he was forced to retire for health reasons. So I don't see anything odd about someone knowing a song that happened well before his/her "time."  Also it is was Pat Benatar - I mean you can't get more 80s cool then that!

But my best fun in this episode happened on re-watch on my computer when I got a better view of Rio's "passport" - just classic.... Apparently Rios's alterego's name was Villalobos Xavier Vicente instead of Xavier Vicente Villalobos. They decide to not read the passport headers first and put the given names in the surname section.  

Also is it just me... but I could have sworn Rios went from having then not having a name tag on his suit coat and it was happening well before he supposedly gave his name take to Picard so he could talk to Renee.  So I kept getting confused if he was supposed to be a guest, a security guard, or a waiter.   Because if he was supposed to either of the last two he would not have been coming in via the front door, no?

[Llywela]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Yeah, Rios, if you want to impressive the nice hot doctor, maybe don't try to frame her son for the mysteriously exploding medical equipment.  And then swear that you and your shady gang are totally the good guys.  Need to brush up on your flirting skills there, Casanova

I mean, it's consistent characterisation. He had no idea how to flirt with Agnes last season, either. The man spent 10 years alone on his ship, avoiding other people as much as possible. His romance skills are rusty!

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Seeing JLP on the ground and flashing back to what actually happened was jarring for me, at least.  Having Soong just roll up on him at the party was creepy as hell! Then I was pissed off at him attempting to run Renee over.  Did Q mean for him to kill Renee Picard?

Q tasked Soong with keeping Renee off the mission and left the how up to him. Running her over was his own idea.

8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

What exactly was Talin doing all those years when she never interfered and the code won't allow her to do that? How's that protecting? And did we get an explanation why she looks like Laris?

There may not have been much to protect Renee from, up till now, or perhaps any previous hazards were easier to resolve from a distance. She didn't say she'd never interfered, just that she has never spoken to Renee in person, has always just protected from the shadows, always present, always unseen.

They haven't explained why she looks like Laris yet, no.

7 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Am I understanding this right: the Eugenics War, Khan and his followers, were all caused (or at least the genetic experiments that created them) by Soong and his wacky experiments? If so, wow, that family is a menace. What's Q's role in all this? Is he going to give Soong something to make Kore stable, and thus create a race of supermen which all leads to Ricardo Montalban trying to take over the world? 

No, Soong isn't about to kick off the Eugenics War. That should have already happened by now, almost 30 years ago. It's the reason his genetic experiments are illegal, which is why he had his licence revoked last episode. What they are implying is that he was already involved in that work back at the time of the war, and has continued his illegal research ever since. Which is 100% consistent with how the Soong family have always been portrayed! Every Soong we've ever met has been morally ambiguous in the name of furthering his research. Except Data, who was pure sunshine and therefore clearly the black sheep of the family!

6 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Agreed the character interactions where fun... and I second the want for a spinoff with these characters without Picard.  Though I am starting to wonder if Rios' is going to say in 2024? 

Also is it just me... but I could have sworn Rios went from having then not having a name tag on his suit coat and it was happening well before he supposedly gave his name take to Picard so he could talk to Renee.  So I kept getting confused if he was supposed to be a guest, a security guard, or a waiter.   Because if he was supposed to either of the last two he would not have been coming in via the front door, no?

He'd better not stay in 2024, I want my Stargazer spinoff! Another character note, though, that he finds it so easy to see the positives around him despite having had such a traumatic experience with ICE. Which, I guess, is another sign of how much his mental health has improved since last season, when he was still mired in depression and cynicism. No wonder Raffi was so bemused by his good mood - up till now she's never known anything but the depressed side of him.

I'm not clear where that name badge came from either. Rios wasn't wearing it, he arrived at the gala as a guest. He must have nicked it from one of the actual guards? Another missing scene! There have been quite a few this season, little connections not quite made. Like not having even a tiny scene with Rios, Raffi and Seven together after the bus rescue. And how the first option after Picard was run down should have been to get him and Agnes back to La Sirena for treatment there - going to the clinic should have been the last resort when they couldn't find Agnes, but we didn't see them even attempt to call her, which made it a bit jarring. I'm more forgiving of little details like that for this season, though, because I know they were filming under really strict covid conditions and that will have had a huge impact and is probably why some of these episodes are running short. They worked wonders making the season as good as it is, in the circumstances.

[marinw]

Yep, Rios is absoutely becomming his own ancestor. Is it still time-travel incest if there is the four hundred year time difference?

[greekmom]

15 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Kore figures out that she is actually a clone more or less and that Dr. Soong pretty much just sees her as his creation and not his actual daughter.

I just got the reference on the name. Duh.

How many ancestors of Soong are we going to meet? Shocked none of them popped up in Time's Arrow.

The rest of it was just a meh mess.  I hate the "queen" and Jurati is an idiot.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Yep, Rios is absoutely becomming his own ancestor. Is it still time-travel incest if there is the four hundred year time difference?

I don't think he is about to become his own ancestor, no. For one thing, millions of people could be traced back to a common ancestor if you go back 400 years, that's a lot of generations, far too far removed for incest to be a concern even if it did turn out there was a connection, which seems highly unlikely to me. And although loads of people seem to think the show is gearing up to leave Rios behind, I don't think that's going to happen. Seems to me they are building up to a more standard Star Trek time travel storyline about the heartbreak of falling for someone from another era and then having to leave them there, knowing what their future holds (in this case, World War III is on the horizon).

I stand prepared to be corrected if the show does go that way, but I also think it would be a ridiculous thing to do. Firstly, for all the same reasons Marvel was criticised for sending Steve Rogers back in time - if it is tough to avoid changing history when you are only there a few days, how much harder would it be to avoid changing history if you are living in it permanently? And secondly, future-proofing the franchise by having all the main cast alive and active back in 2401 when this season is done and dusted seems like a no-brainer to me, to have them available for at least the possibility of future use when this show ends. A Seven spin-off might be more likely than a Rios and Stargazer spin-off, at this stage, if only because Seven already has a built-in fanbase from her Voyager days, but surely it would be to the benefit of any potential spin-off to be able to draw on the characters from Picard, who already have established relationships and backstories to build on.

[marinw]

So are all of Adam Soong's "Children" geentically engineered humans and not andriods? The way technology is being retconned in this version of 2024 it's hard to tell. (Europa is 2024. As if.)

Edited April 8, 2022 by marinw

[Llywela]

24 minutes ago, marinw said:

So are all of Adam Soong's "Children" geentically engineered humans and not andriods? The way technology is being retconned in this version of 2024 it's hard to tell. (Europa is 2024. As if.)

Yes, Adam Soong is into genetic engineering - the development of androids that can pass as humans is still 4 centuries away. Adam's predilection for genetic engineering ties in with Star Trek canon for this era, which places the Eugenics War in the 1990s - we've already seen that Adam's ongoing genetic experiments are illegal, and his licence has been revoked as a result; he was probably up to his neck in the Eugenics War and has continued that work on the down low ever since. Previous Treks have introduced other Soongs in other time periods who were also into similar dodgy stuff, so this is bang on trend for the family.

I've seen fans getting in a twist about this Europa mission in 2024 meaning Star Trek can't be set in our own future, which is apparently a concept they badly want to hold onto, but I've been watching Star Trek since TNG aired in the late 80s, and honestly, I have never once in my life believed that it represents our own future. It represents a possible future, but not ours - it can't be our future because we've already passed key milestones that haven't been the same in the real world, like the Eugenics Wars. Inevitable for any sci fi show that portrays the near future and then catches up with it!

[chaifan]

OK, I knew someone would end up on stage singing at some point, but I assumed it would be Seven.  (Since we've seen her sing in TNG oops, Voyager.)  I did not expect Agnes at all. 

Here's my explanation for Agnes' performance:  Agnes didn't know Pat Benatar, the Queen knew the song, from when she was listening to all the voices over the cell towers.  Somewhere in there she picked up an "oldies" (ahem, '80's) station, and she retains everything.  She took over Agnes for the performance, which is why the Queen was on stage taking the bow with her. 

Why was this episode so short?  37 minutes.  (And I think that includes the "previously on" and opening credits.)  As some people have commented above, there were a few things that seemed dropped, and they had time to fit in those things.  So why such a short episode?  They could have fit in a great "lets go shopping for tuxes and ball gowns" montage!  With Agnes picking rather plain dresses until the Queen takes over for a few moments and makes her try on the red one.  😁

I do love the little details, like the Queen taking off her shoes to walk the streets of LA.  I mean, after not having legs for so long, I think you'd want to be as comfortable as possible. 

Wheaton's The Ready Room has Frakes and Spiner on this week.  It's a fun interview, and also includes a montage of all the times Trek characters have dressed up in other timelines.  Frakes also explains Pill's involvement in picking the song. 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by chaifan

[Hiyo]

Quote

OK, I knew someone would end up on stage singing at some point, but I assumed it would be Seven.  (Since we've seen her sing in TNG.)

You mean Voyager.

[Llywela]

17 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Here's my explanation for Agnes' performance:  Agnes didn't know Pat Benatar, the Queen knew the song, from when she was listening to all the voices over the cell towers.  Somewhere in there she picked up an "oldies" (ahem, '80's) station, and she retains everything.  She took over Agnes for the performance, which is why the Queen was on stage taking the bow with her. 

The Borg Queen wasn't in control of Agnes until after the song - we saw the moment she was able to take control. The Queen was shown alongside Agnes a few times, including on stage, to help us understand how Agnes was perceiving the experience of having the BQ in her brain. Most of Agnes's story in this episode was a balancing act, trying to get the BQ to cooperate and help without handing over the steering wheel, so to speak - the BQ asserted herself a few times without permission, most notably when she forced Agnes to pull Rios into that kiss against his will, trying to get the endorphins she needed to assume full control - but overall Agnes was in charge right up until the moment her eyes turned black.

As far as which of them knew the song, jury is out. Maybe Agnes has a fondness for old music - or one of her parents had a fondness for old music so she grew up hearing it. Maybe the Queen knew the song because the Borg once assimilated someone who knew it. But it was Agnes singing, she still had control of her own body at that point. Having the BQ in her brain gave her the confidence boost she needed to do it, though.

ETA - I think some of the episodes are running short because they were filmed under strict covid regulations and that restricted a lot of what could be achieved. They did well to make the season as good as it is, really. This episode must have been really difficult because there were so many people all together in one place, and so much interaction between characters who have been split into separate shooting bubbles for the last few weeks. I imagine it was tricky to pull it all off, so I don't begrudge them a few extra scenes they couldn't quite manage (although I can see the gaps where perhaps a bit more was needed).

Edited April 8, 2022 by Llywela

[chaifan]

@Llywela, yes, that is what I meant - not a total take over, since we saw that at the end, but that the Queen was in Agnes' head for the performance.  Everything we've seen & know about Agnes says she wouldn't be doing that on her own, or at least not with that level of confidence.  So, I'm just going to make the leap and say the Queen was also supplying the song, that performance was mostly the Queen, which is why she took the bow.  And, I still say the Queen chose the dress.  😁

Rios - I don't think he'll stay in 2024, just because there's still a Season 3.  If this were the last season, I'd say there would be some reason that one member of the crew has to stay behind to fend off the bad guys or flip the switch or do whatever so the rest can get home.  But I think all of the main cast will leave 2024.  I hope they don't go down the being your own ancestor line with him, but it certainly looks like that's where it is heading.  I'd rather see the doctor and her son return with Rios, and give Rios a family for Season 3.  Maybe the clinic gets bombed and he transports them out just before they get killed, so the timeline isn't affected. 

So is Soong also adding genetic modifications to ensure that all males born in the Soong line - forever - will look exactly like him?  😄 Because if Kore is his only "child", I don't know how we get the Soongs back to all looking like 2024 Soong.  Or does Kore end up cloning Soong for a son (um, ew), and so on and so on? 

 

 

[Llywela]

18 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I hope they don't go down the being your own ancestor line with him, but it certainly looks like that's where it is heading

In what way does it look like they are heading toward a 'being your own ancestor' storyline? Sorry, but I just don't see it. There has been nothing in the story so far to suggest any familial connection between Rios and Theresa whatsoever. It is a star-crossed romance story, and one that Trek has told before - whenever they do a time travel story to the modern era, there is always some kind of romance with a local, complicated by the lies that must be told, followed by the heartache of having to leave them behind while knowing what the future holds for them. Everything we've seen so far has tallied with that. The familial story being told is that of Picard and his ancestor, and the show has been very clear about the connection between them. There is too much else going on at this point to also introduce some familial connection between Rios and Theresa, there has been no build-up to such a thing, and nor is there any need for it - there's barely enough screentime to do the star-crossed lovers, never mind anything else. Quite frankly, this show just isn't Rios-centric enough for a story like that!

As for the Soongs, their involvement with genetic experimentation does seem a likely explanation for why they are all always identical! But I hope the show never explains it. I just want it to be one of those things that just is. There is always another Soong to pop up, in every era, and they always look the same. 😄

Edited April 8, 2022 by Llywela

[chaifan]

25 minutes ago, Llywela said:

In what way does it look like they are heading toward a 'being your own ancestor' storyline?

In my mind, any time travel show that shows a potential love interest between time traveler and present day person has a great chance of turning into a becoming your own ancestor plot.  It's just been done sooooo many times, rarely with any foreshadowing.  It piggy backs onto the star crossed lovers plot.  The lovers have sex, the time traveler goes back to his/her own time, brokenhearted he/she has to leave their lover behind.  And shortly after, someone does the research, finds an old photo, etc., and realizes his/her great great great great (grandmother/father) was the person he/she met in the past.  There's really no additional plot, just a throwaway line after the time traveler returns.  Just saying, it's been done, so now I sort of expect it.

 

 

[dwmarch]

46 minutes ago, chaifan said:

So is Soong also adding genetic modifications to ensure that all males born in the Soong line - forever - will look exactly like him?  😄 Because if Kore is his only "child", I don't know how we get the Soongs back to all looking like 2024 Soong. 

Back in the Enterprise days there was a fan theory that I liked that came around after we met Arik Soong. Arik at one point mentions hiding out in the Briar Patch. So it is possible he hid on the planet from Insurrection and reverse aged himself while reinventing himself as Noonien Soong. Insurrection supports this with a moment where Picard is trying to explain what Data is in really dumbed down terms and the Ba'ku tell him that they are quite familiar with positronic beings. So for a while there it was possible that there was just one Soong but then this show came along to say all Soongs are Brent Spiner. If that is the case, genetic tampering would actually fit nicely.

[Llywela]

7 minutes ago, chaifan said:

In my mind, any time travel show that shows a potential love interest between time traveler and present day person has a great chance of turning into a becoming your own ancestor plot.  It's just been done sooooo many times, rarely with any foreshadowing.  It piggy backs onto the star crossed lovers plot.  The lovers have sex, the time traveler goes back to his/her own time, brokenhearted he/she has to leave their lover behind.  And shortly after, someone does the research, finds an old photo, etc., and realizes his/her great great great great (grandmother/father) was the person he/she met in the past.  There's really no additional plot, just a throwaway line after the time traveler returns.  Just saying, it's been done, so now I sort of expect it.

It's a plot that's happened, sure, but it isn't the only time travel plot ever. It certainly isn't the singular inevitable outcome for any story featuring a time traveller falling for someone in the past. And what you describe would be the through plot for a lead character, which in this show would be Picard. Rios's interest in Theresa is a side story. It's not going to go that deep.

[marinw]

@Llywela if this future isn't our future let's hope we avoid the Post Atomic Horror😬

Edited April 8, 2022 by marinw

[paigow]

5 hours ago, marinw said:

Yep, Rios is absoutely becomming his own ancestor.

Kyle Rios Reese  - although it was never confirmed if John Connor fathered Kyle Reese

[Hiyo]

Quote

It's just been done sooooo many times

Has it really? I think it's more of an exaggerated trope than an actual one.

 

[benteen]

There's nothing wrong with Picard but he's still in a coma...damn, it sounds like Revenge of the Sith territory. Medically she's fine but she's lost the will to live. That's about how legit the medicine is here.

There was some good stuff here but I feel like the storyline has been in a real slog the past few episodes. Now we will waste an entire episode with a "fantastic voyage" through Picard's head to find out something he's been repressing for 80 years. After First Contact, there hasn't been much good coming out of the TNG years once Patrick Stewart got more creative control.

Some good stuff for Allison Pill (and of course Annie Wersching) save for her terrible rendition of that Pat Benatar song. I'm finding Raffi to be annoying as hell. She's a pain in the ass whenever someone suggests a course of action, in this case getting Picard out of his "coma". I guess that's better than her shitting on him for something, liking be born rich or getting Elinor killed. She constantly acts like she's the expert on everything. She acts like she's the only person who has list anyone EVER, ignoring the fact that Seven also lost someone close to her.

It was cool to see Picard confront Soong but I'd rather he come confront Q instead. Q's best scenes were always with Picard and I haven't liked the way they've used him this season.

I liked the scene with Picard and Renee but did she even bother to ask if she could go to the hospital with him after he saved her life.

I appreciate the fact that this show has 10 episodes as more and more shows are doing less and less. But it looks like they have about two episodes of actual storyline this season.

Edited April 11, 2022 by benteen

[norcalgal]

22 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Wish I was a fly on the all during the Picard/Soong scene because knowing how close the New Generation crew is, I can only imagine the antics that were going down with Patrick Stewart, Brent Spiner, and Jonathan Frakes in the directing chair.  Must have felt like old times!

Yeah, that would be great to see.

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

I just got the reference on the name. Duh.

Can someone clue me in on Kore's name?  I don't get the significance.

33 minutes ago, benteen said:

I appreciate the fact that this show has 10 episodes as more and more shows are doing less and less. But ot looks like they have about two episodes of actual storyline this season.

That's how I feel.  And I still enjoyed S1 more than S2...so the rest of this season's episodes will have to really step it up for me to want to watch a S3.

[paigow]

1 minute ago, norcalgal said:

Can someone clue me in on Kore's name?  I don't get the significance.

Could be wrong ...  rhymes with Lore

[Cthulhudrew]

7 hours ago, greekmom said:

IHow many ancestors of Soong are we going to meet? Shocked none of them popped up in Time's Arrow.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable reveal of the tyrannical clone ancestor named Khan Noonien Soong.

[MissLucas]

8 minutes ago, norcalgal said:

Can someone clue me in on Kore's name?  I don't get the significance.

Kore refers to a type of sculpture from the archaic period in Greek history - here's the full Wikipedia entry. But that's not what they were going for. Kore is also another name for Persephone. And here are the names that show Kore saw on the clips in Dad's cabinet of genetic horror:  Persephone, Despoina, Persephetta (also another name for Persephone) and Artemis. There were more names but the clips were overlapping and I couldn't understand their names but Persephone and Artemis were both daughters of Zeus so Soong had enough choices . As I said last week - dude has a knack for preposterous names and a big ego.

 

[Llywela]

56 minutes ago, paigow said:

Could be wrong ...  rhymes with Lore

Kore is pronounced like Corey, so it doesn't rhyme with Lore. As MissLucas says, Kore is another name for Persephone in Greek mythology, it means 'daughter'. All the clone daughters who died seemed to have names from Greek mythology.

[salaydouk]

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

He'd better not stay in 2024, I want my Stargazer spinoff! Another character note, though, that he finds it so easy to see the positives around him despite having had such a traumatic experience with ICE. Which, I guess, is another sign of how much his mental health has improved since last season, when he was still mired in depression and cynicism. No wonder Raffi was so bemused by his good mood - up till now she's never known anything but the depressed side of him.

I'm not clear where that name badge came from either. Rios wasn't wearing it, he arrived at the gala as a guest. He must have nicked it from one of the actual guards? Another missing scene! There have been quite a few this season, little connections not quite made. Like not having even a tiny scene with Rios, Raffi and Seven together after the bus rescue. And how the first option after Picard was run down should have been to get him and Agnes back to La Sirena for treatment there - going to the clinic should have been the last resort when they couldn't find Agnes, but we didn't see them even attempt to call her, which made it a bit jarring. I'm more forgiving of little details like that for this season, though, because I know they were filming under really strict covid conditions and that will have had a huge impact and is probably why some of these episodes are running short. They worked wonders making the season as good as it is, in the circumstances.

Agreed, I completely enjoyed seeing Rios being able to see the good side of 2024 instead of the ICE experience.  Though I still dont really understand how he is even walking after the fall he took and his tasering. 

Regarding the name badge the problem is/was Rios was alternating wearing it and then not wearing it even before he gave it to Picard.  I even checked that the name on the name badge was the same when it was on Rios and Picard.  At the top of the episode Rios is wearing it and then in the next scene he is not?!?? Agreed I can let it it slide, but I just don't see the point if Rios having it at all to start out with... and honestly I was a bit annoyed that of the entire group it was the Latino going into the party as a worker and not a guest - because you know every Latino in LA in 2022/4 is working class only.  🤬  Please note that last statement is meant/said being extremely POed and dripping  with sarcasm. 

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

In my mind, any time travel show that shows a potential love interest between time traveler and present day person has a great chance of turning into a becoming your own ancestor plot.  It's just been done sooooo many times, rarely with any foreshadowing.  It piggy backs onto the star crossed lovers plot.  The lovers have sex, the time traveler goes back to his/her own time, brokenhearted he/she has to leave their lover behind.  And shortly after, someone does the research, finds an old photo, etc., and realizes his/her great great great great (grandmother/father) was the person he/she met in the past.  There's really no additional plot, just a throwaway line after the time traveler returns.  Just saying, it's been done, so now I sort of expect it.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

It's a plot that's happened, sure, but it isn't the only time travel plot ever. It certainly isn't the singular inevitable outcome for any story featuring a time traveller falling for someone in the past. And what you describe would be the through plot for a lead character, which in this show would be Picard. Rios's interest in Theresa is a side story. It's not going to go that deep.

While that is a very common time travel occurrence for to have someone to wind up their own ancestor and Rios is not the main character...

Spoiler

But since this season has leaned in SO heavily with ST:TVH and Rios is starting to look like a love sick puppy, a cute one to be sure but one none the less, and it seems like Teresa might be catching on( though don't know about her son.)  If Rios does not stay in 2024, it could also be possible that Teresa jumps into the transporter stream with Rios, ala Dr Gillian Taylor, right as he is leaving and they have no choice but to take her and her son back with them to the 24th Century. 

 

[marinw]

Very shallow commentary: Everyone looked fantastic all dressed up. Even the BQ hanging out in Agnes's body. Still not sure how that works.

Edited April 8, 2022 by marinw

[greekmom]

4 hours ago, norcalgal said:

Yeah, that would be great to see.

Can someone clue me in on Kore's name?  I don't get the significance.

That's how I feel.  And I still enjoyed S1 more than S2...so the rest of this season's episodes will have to really step it up for me to want to watch a S3.

In Greek mythology, Persephone was also called Kore which means maiden. Kore is also a term given to Greek freestanding female statues of  Archaic period.  Kore pronounced kóri also means daughter in modern Greek.

Given that his other children were called Persephone, Despoina, Persephassa ,Artemis, Proserpina and Thalia which are tied to the Greek gods, Soong sees himself as Zeus.

 

 

[Chyromaniac]

On 4/7/2022 at 6:27 PM, marinw said:

Sir Patrick still looks good in a tux.

Kore never researched Dad's work before?

I think during the swimming lesson, Soong tells her that she’s missed a decade or two of life experiences- maybe he’s being more literal than she knows.  What if Kore has undergone accelerated aging/memory implantation as a result of whatever genetic engineering he’s done with her and her sisters?  I know we see a couple of decades worth of Brent Spiner aging in those photos, but it sounds like she’s had even more names- Kore might only be a few years old, if that.  Speaking of names…

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

In Greek mythology, Persephone was also called Kore which means maiden. Kore is also a term given to Greek freestanding female statues of  Archaic period.  Kore pronounced kóri also means daughter in modern Greek.

Given that his other children were called Persephone, Despoina, Persephassa ,Artemis, Proserpina and Thalia which are tied to the Greek gods, Soong sees himself as Zeus.

I was curious about the names, so I did some digging- and yeah, when I looked up “Kore” and Persephone popped up it set off a big red alert for me.  From what I could make out, at least three of the names (those two plus Persephetta) were hers, so there’s significance there.  I read that she was seen as a symbol of immortality, given how she always returned from the underworld- and Soong kept referring to Kore as “my life’s work.”  It reminds me of a conversation between a different Dr. Soong and his creation about why humans have children.

Otherwise the other names I heard are curious- although it seems like they were (at least in some cases) associated with Persephone, and/or Demeter.  Despoina was the child of Demeter and Poseidon, so a half-sister to Persephone.  Kore is the “maiden,” while Despoina and Demeter are mistress and mother of the house, respectively.   And Artemis is typically presented as a child of Zeus and Leto- but I saw one reference to Demeter as well, specifically related to Artemis being a symbol of fertility and an aid in childbirth.  So maybe it’s not just about Soong playing god as Zeus- perhaps there’s a Demeter at the root of it all as well.  A wife, or maybe a mother he’s trying to recreate?  He and Picard should talk more- maybe Q can start a therapy group for them…

[marinw]

Q as a therapist is wrong on so many levels.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

Q as a therapist is wrong on so many levels.

Tapestry!Q was therapeutic... without the Freudian / French accent...

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 4/8/2022 at 7:13 AM, marinw said:

Yep, Rios is absoutely becomming his own ancestor. Is it still time-travel incest if there is the four hundred year time difference?

 

22 hours ago, paigow said:

Kyle Rios Reese  - although it was never confirmed if John Connor fathered Kyle Reese

To borrow from Futurama:

"And if history doesn't care that our degenerate friend Fry is his own grandfather, then who are we to judge?"  :)

[Joimiaroxeu]

Jurati's got quite a rack. Meanwhile, did we know Agnes could sing? I really liked her cover of Shadows of the Night.

Data no! Not Jean-Luc! 😉

TMW you find out you're a clone. At least Soong hasn't been making copies of copies. That can't end well, lol.

How much worse could it possibly get, Raffi? The Borg Queen roaming the streets of L.A., that's how much worse. Better hope she doesn't run into Ye.

Quote

How does Jurati know Pat Benatar songs? The band should know Sinatra... but how would she know a 40 / 400 year old song? 

Per reddit:

Quote

"These are not the plot holes you're looking for..."

Edited April 9, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu

[MissLucas]

I honestly don't know why Jurati choosing a Pat Benatar song is such a miracle. Maybe the 24th century still knows YT reaction clips and there are still folks getting their mind blown by 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Jurati strikes me as the type who has some geeky interests we haven't heard about yet.

More than one holodeck scene featured songs from the 20th century - most of them from the 1940s IIRC. I guess they were cheaper or had no copyright at all.

Edited April 9, 2022 by MissLucas

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I honestly don't know why Jurati choosing a Pat Benatar song is such a miracle. Maybe the 24th century still knows YT reaction clips and there are still folks getting their mind blown by 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Jurati strikes me as the type who has some geeky interests we haven't heard about yet.

More than one holodeck scen featured songs from the 20th century - most of them from the 1940s IIRC. I guess they were cheaper or had no copyright.

Exactly. It is well established in Star Trek lore that some 24th century people take a keen interest in historical Earth culture. Picard himself had a penchant for 1940s detective novels, so much so that he had regularly role played those novels on the holodeck. Tom Paris in Voyager was obsessed with 20th century culture (and is probably the reason Seven knows how to drive a car). Data used to enjoy playing Sherlock Holmes on the holodeck. The TNG crew used to throw concerts for one another, and those always featured classic music. I really don't see why Jurati knowing a Pat Benatar song seems so outrageous to some fans (well, other than the fake geek boys who like to bitch about everything just for the sake of it, of course, I know why they do it). Jurati knowing a 20th century song is very typical of Star Trek, in fact.

Not to mention that the humans of today, here in 2022, regularly play music and songs composed several hundred years ago. It really shouldn't be surprising to anyone that the humans of the Star Trek era might do the same!

[Hiyo]

Quote

well, other than the fake geek boys who like to bitch about everything just for the sake of it, of course, I know why they do it

But if there was no Pat Benetar song, what would they have to complain about on this week's ride on the waambulance?

[marinw]

Who is the worst therapist: Q or the BQ?

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I honestly don't know why Jurati choosing a Pat Benatar song is such a miracle.

It's nice to think that her music would keep on going!  I would hope that would be the case with someone as talented as Pat Benatar though.  A true rock and roll pioneer for women.  Much respect.