S01.E06: Iron Sisters

[SlovakPrincess]

Quote

Fresh out of college and newly employed by Theranos, Tyler Schultz and Erika Cheung discover shocking truths about Elizabeth and the company. Richard and Phyllis work with John Carreyrou to build a case against Elizabeth.

Air Date: March 24, 2022.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[SlovakPrincess]

I liked the subtle theme of two young upstarts who were actually willing to pay their dues and do things the right way ... possibly taking down Elizabeth Holmes, the famous dropout that everyone is celebrating for cutting corners.  And, yes, I know Tyler had the internship given to him because of his family name and wealth, but he at least graduated college first and was willing to do the entry level work in the lab.  I think they handled it nicely, Tyler realizing he should take the hit alone (because he has his family wealth to fall back on), instead of Erica being on the email outlining the unethical lab practices.  

It's nice being able to watch Ebon Moss-Bachrach in something where I don't simply want his character to get hit by a bus (I hated his aggressively annoying Girls character so, so, so much - and he did a fine job with that role, that one-note character just never should've lasted more than one season.)  

The mystery source who jumps into Richard's car at the end - well that was a surprise!   "Can I offer you some water?   ....  I don't have any water - I don't know why I said that."  LOL.  I wish we got a little more info on why Richard's wife divorced him - I assume it's because his obsession with going after Theranos has taken over his life, but a little hint would've been nice.  

I would shrivel up from embarrassment if my birthday party involved masks of my face and a song sung to me about how awesome I am.  And of course we get more creepy Elizabeth and Sunny dancing.  The cringe of it all ...

Poor Rochelle!  She really looked like she was falling apart when Phyllis and Richard showed up at her door.  

The thing with all the armed security escorting Elizabeth everywhere -- completely bizarre.  Is this what CEOs do nowadays?  What do they think will happen to them - get kidnapped for ransom?  

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

The thing with all the armed security escorting Elizabeth everywhere -- completely bizarre.  Is this what CEOs do nowadays?  What do they think will happen to them - get kidnapped for ransom?  

With Elizabeth it was all about appearances. I think she wanted to look like she was more important than she was.  Did Steve Jobs have security? She was probably copying him. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I did not realize that Dr. Phyllis Gardner, Richard, and Ian's widow banded together to take Elizabeth down.  I thought it all started with Tyler contacting John Carreyrou, so I was pleasantly surprised there, ha.  Loved Dr. Phyllis Gardner asking "Why does everybody want to believe in this girl so badly?"  Yes Phyllis, YES, I don't get it either!

Uh, that birthday party with the Elizabeth masks was creepy as hell.  Yikes.  And then requesting that Tyler sing that cheesy ass song twice?  Double-yikes!

Enjoyed Erika chewing Tyler out because he didn't believe (at first) that Elizabeth could have known anything about what was going on at her company.  Tyler seemed like a decent guy, and I'm glad he wanted to protect Erika and her job.  Grandpa Schultz was kind of a delusional A-hole, though.  Like why would you believe Elizabeth over your own grandson (who has a work colleague backing him up)?  Shameful.

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Grandpa Schultz was kind of a delusional A-hole, though.  Like why would you believe Elizabeth over your own grandson (who has a work colleague backing him up)?  Shameful.

I hope Grandpa gave Tyler a huge apology when he was proven right.  

More and more people are being shown knowing it was a fraud and they kept doing it.  And for what? Money?  I would hope if I was ever in that position I would be like Erica and Tyler and blow the whistle.

1 hour ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

 Loved Dr. Phyllis Gardner asking "Why does everybody want to believe in this girl so badly?"  Yes Phyllis, YES, I don't get it either!

When Elizabeth was giving that speech and Gardner said "Oh for fuck sake" I was saying it right along with her.  

[wanderingstar]

This episode was really good. I've followed this story since about 2018, so I pretty much know all the story beats that are coming, but I still think the show is doing a good job of crafting the narrative. The juxtaposition of Elizabeth and Sunny in bed with Erika agonizing over sending the email was perfect. Elizabeth and Sunny are really in their own world. 

The actors playing Erika and Tyler are doing a great job. Their confrontation scene with Sunny gave me a knot in my stomach. 

Laurie Metcalf is absolutely wonderful as Phyllis Gardner. I've watched a few interviews with Dr. Gardner, and the casting couldn't be more perfect. 

 

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I hope Grandpa gave Tyler a huge apology when he was proven right.  

Apparently,

Spoiler

While Grandpa Shultz never apologized to Tyler personally, he eventually told Tyler he was right all along. They eventually reconciled before George died. 

 

[Carolina Girl]

2 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

I hope Grandpa gave Tyler a huge apology when he was proven right.  

According to the Gibney documentary - the "spoiler" in the comment above is correct.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Carolina Girl
Need to clarify re "apology"

[slowpoked]

3 hours ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Grandpa Schultz was kind of a delusional A-hole, though.  Like why would you believe Elizabeth over your own grandson (who has a work colleague backing him up)?  Shameful.

It's the folly of elderly people looking down on younger people thinking condescendingly "How can you know better than me?" I'm George Shultz, been in esteemed positions and served POTUSes for the longest time, etc. And you're saying that I have a bad judgment re: Elizabeth Holmes?!"

Also, if you have read Bad Blood, the book alludes to the mysterious power of Elizabeth being really, really good at convincing people to believe HER, even at the expense of more trusted friends or family members, in Tyler's case. I mean, I see the cognitive dissonance - the cause is so noble, and if proven that it works, it could have been a world game-changer. So powerful people, like Shultz, are desperate to believe in her that she's right, that she cannot be wrong. Or else, this really, really noble cause they believe in would go down in flames. 

[Cinnabon]

51 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

It's the folly of elderly people looking down on younger people thinking condescendingly "How can you know better than me?" I'm George Shultz, been in esteemed positions and served POTUSes for the longest time, etc. And you're saying that I have a bad judgment re: Elizabeth Holmes?!"

Also, if you have read Bad Blood, the book alludes to the mysterious power of Elizabeth being really, really good at convincing people to believe HER, even at the expense of more trusted friends or family members, in Tyler's case. I mean, I see the cognitive dissonance - the cause is so noble, and if proven that it works, it could have been a world game-changer. So powerful people, like Shultz, are desperate to believe in her that she's right, that she cannot be wrong. Or else, this really, really noble cause they believe in would go down in flames. 

What part of the cause was noble, though? How would a different method of drawing blood “save lives?” (As she claimed). When I was uninsured, I once paid out of pocket to have some simple blood panels done at a local lab. All of the results were normal, which was a relief. But if they hadn’t been, how could I have interpreted them as a lay person? When you don’t have healthcare coverage, you usually don’t have a doctor to ask. And you don’t have access to any treatment you might need if the tests show potential issues. Walgreens wasn’t offering Theranos tests for free and didn’t offer access to any healthcare professionals to help interpret any questionable results. 
 

ETA - in order to get a blood test at Walgreens, customers needed their  IDs, their insurance cards, AND orders from their doctors. So this technology didn’t help the uninsured in any way, and the only difference for patients was the finger prick vs traditional blood draw.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Cinnabon

[larapu2000]

3 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

More and more people are being shown knowing it was a fraud and they kept doing it.  And for what? Money?  I would hope if I was ever in that position I would be like Erica and Tyler and blow the whistle. 

It's INSANITY, right?  According to the book,

Spoiler

they would just shuffle people around until they got fired for speaking up or quit out of frustration.  There were also a number of Indian employees whose visas hinged on employment with Theranos, so Sunny was able to manipulate them into shutting up and keeping with the company line out of fear that they would have to return back home.

Just when you think she's done, George Shultz gives her a lifeline.

[AntFTW]

Might be an unpopular opinion but overall, I thought this episode was pretty boring. However, I will say that I chuckled in the first five minutes looking at Amanda Seyfried's face and those subtle movements as the light is shining in her face and she looks into the camera. It just looked like her face was contorting trying so hard to cover the bullshit. I thought that was good.

Laurie Metcalf was the highlight of the episode for me. She is acting her ass off!

6 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I think they handled it nicely, Tyler realizing he should take the hit alone (because he has his family wealth to fall back on), instead of Erica being on the email outlining the unethical lab practices.

I agree. I think they handled it well. When they were together looking at the laptop and reading the email (before the idea came that Tyler should send the email), I thinking "no, Tyler should be the one to send it. He has a backup plan and connections. He can handle being fired while Erica can't. Outside of that, don't be such an a-hole to let Erica take 100% of the heat when it's Tyler's idea too. At the very least, share the blame for the email."

7 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

The mystery source who jumps into Richard's car at the end - well that was a surprise!   "Can I offer you some water?   ....  I don't have any water - I don't know why I said that."  LOL.

I couldn't get Stuart from Big Bang Theory out of my head. I referred to him as Stuart the entire time. When this scene came on I'm like "so his mystery source is Stuart?" When I was thinking back and recapping the episode, my mind said "Stuart moved Erica to Normandy."

My mind: "He's not Stuart. He's not Stuart. *I look at my screen* "Oh Shit. Stuart's the source???"

3 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Laurie Metcalf is absolutely wonderful as Phyllis Gardner.

Nailing it!

46 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

When I was uninsured, I once paid out of pocket to have some simple blood panels done at a local lab. All of the results were normal, which was a relief. But if they hadn’t been, how could I have interpreted them as a lay person? When you don’t have healthcare coverage, you usually don’t have a doctor to ask.

Trying to get healthcare without insurance is b**ch! Paying out of pocket for anything is ridiculously and prohibitively expensive. I had to go through that struggle.

But yes, I agree with this position. I wouldn't do a blood test without going to a doctor because I wouldn't know how to interpret the results. I wouldn't know what the numbers mean or how should they look or what "normal" looks like. Does "normal" look different in different people?

[Cinnabon]

24 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Might be an unpopular opinion but overall, I thought this episode was pretty boring. However, I will say that I chuckled in the first five minutes looking at Amanda Seyfried's face and those subtle movements as the light is shining in her face and she looks into the camera. It just looked like her face was contorting trying so hard to cover the bullshit. I thought that was good.

Laurie Metcalf was the highlight of the episode for me. She is acting her ass off!

I agree. I think they handled it well. When they were together looking at the laptop and reading the email (before the idea came that Tyler should send the email), I thinking "no, Tyler should be the one to send it. He has a backup plan and connections. He can handle being fired while Erica can't. Outside of that, don't be such an a-hole to let Erica take 100% of the heat when it's Tyler's idea too. At the very least, share the blame for the email."

I couldn't get Stuart from Big Bang Theory out of my head. I referred to him as Stuart the entire time. When this scene came on I'm like "so his mystery source is Stuart?" When I was thinking back and recapping the episode, my mind said "Stuart moved Erica to Normandy."

My mind: "He's not Stuart. He's not Stuart. *I look at my screen* "Oh Shit. Stuart's the source???"

Nailing it!

Trying to get healthcare without insurance is b**ch! Paying out of pocket for anything is ridiculously and prohibitively expensive. I had to go through that struggle.

But yes, I agree with this position. I wouldn't do a blood test without going to a doctor because I wouldn't know how to interpret the results. I wouldn't know what the numbers mean or how should they look or what "normal" looks like. Does "normal" look different in different people?

The results will highlight any numbers that weren’t “within normal limits” (higher than or lower than normal). But yes, you’d need a doctor to interpret them beyond that and suggest next steps. I wanted mine just to see if my iron, cholesterol, and blood sugar levels looked ok, because I had been anemic in the past. In Ohio, you can legally request blood panels without a doctor’s order. In many states, you can’t. But again, I don’t see what Theranos was ultimately offering that was so noble or life changing. Most people don’t have a huge fear of traditional blood draws. 

[SlovakPrincess]

Yeah, so much of Theranos' marketing seemed to suggest that people being terrified of a normal blood draw (but being fine with getting the most sensitive part of their finger pricked) was a real problem that was holding too many people back from medical care.  I'm sure there are people for whom this is a very real concern, but is it that widespread of a concern??  As for it being cost-saving -- is how much blood you need for the sample at all correlated to the cost of the testing??    

I dunno, I always felt like I must be missing something about why Theranos was such a genius idea ... like, "ooh, look at our teeny tiny test tube that we call a nanotainer!  Isn't it better than a big stupid test tube?!"  Uh, sure, I guess?   In the end, I suppose I wasn't missing much!

George Schultz's behavior really highlights one of the key issues -- in addition to Elizabeth and Sunny being really good at lying to everyone, the fancy, impressive board members and rich investors all looked around at each other (figuratively) and assumed "well, we can't all be on the wrong track here."  And Schultz thought of Tyler as a kid still - a nice, earnest kid, but one who wasn't nearly as ambitious, self-assured, or "brilliant" as Elizabeth and everyone around her claimed.  It was easy for Schultz to assume that Tyler (and Erika) were simply too young and inexperienced to understand the big picture of what Theranos was doing.  And everyone assumed with all that money, Elizabeth was hiring the best experts to head the research and development ... in reality, she mistreated and drove away the best (for example, Ian).  

 

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yeah, so much of Theranos' marketing seemed to suggest that people being terrified of a normal blood draw (but being fine with getting the most sensitive part of their finger pricked) was a real problem that was holding too many people back from medical care.  I'm sure there are people for whom this is a very real concern, but is it that widespread of a concern??  As for it being cost-saving -- is how much blood you need for the sample at all correlated to the cost of the testing??    

I dunno, I always felt like I must be missing something about why Theranos was such a genius idea ... like, "ooh, look at our teeny tiny test tube that we call a nanotainer!  Isn't it better than a big stupid test tube?!"  Uh, sure, I guess?   In the end, I suppose I wasn't missing much!

 

 

Companies like Quest (who already handle the bulk of blood testing) have been working on reducing the amount of blood needed for accurate testing for decades already. They used to need a couple vials for some tests and now only need 1/3 of a vial. Theranos/Elizabeth didn’t even have a novel idea there. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Cinnabon

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Companies like Quest (who already handle the bulk of blood testing) have been working on reducing the amount of blood needed for accurate testing for decades already. They used to need a couple vials for some tests and now only need 1/3 of a vial. Theranos/Elizabeth didn’t even have a novel idea there. 

I thought about this while watching the first episode. Having done no research on the topic, I just thought "How could she beat the established blood testing companies at this? I'm sure companies like Quest have been trying to reduce the amount of blood needed for tests for years. If they could have done it, I feel pretty confident that they would have" because why not? Only thinking about the business end (because I know nothing about blood testing), I imagine doing that would come with some cost savings, savings that would be multiplied for a firm like Quest.

Edited March 24, 2022 by AntFTW

[xaxat]

 

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Companies like Quest (who already handle the bulk of blood testing) have been working on reducing the amount of blood needed for accurate testing for decades already. They used to need a couple vials for some tests and now only need 1/3 of a vial. Theranos/Elizabeth didn’t even have a novel idea there. 

Is that blood drawn from  a vein? Because I thought Elizabeth's claim of "innovation" was that a valid sample could be drawn from a finger pin prick. (Which was total bullshit.)

As someone with really hard to find veins, that would be a significant quality of healthcare improvement.

[slowpoked]

31 minutes ago, xaxat said:

 

Is that blood drawn from  a vein? Because I thought Elizabeth's claim of "innovation" was that a valid sample could be drawn from a finger pin prick. (Which was total bullshit.)

As someone with really hard to find veins, that would be a significant quality of healthcare improvement.

This is how I understood it too. Instead of a blood draw, it would be a much less painful finger prick. My understanding too, or at least what I remember from the book, is that you don't need a doctor's order to get this process done. Anyone, whenever they feel like it, can just go to Walgreens, tell the technician they want to check their iron, hormones, etc., get a blood sample drawn and then get that result to their doctor. So Theranos wanted to theoretically put the decision to get checked AND be checked directly to the patient, skipping their doctor, thus saving time and cost, to get that doctor's appointment, get checked by the doctor first, and getting that lab order from their doctor.

[Skala]

5 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

What part of the cause was noble, though? How would a different method of drawing blood “save lives?” (As she claimed). When I was uninsured, I once paid out of pocket to have some simple blood panels done at a local lab. All of the results were normal, which was a relief. But if they hadn’t been, how could I have interpreted them as a lay person? When you don’t have healthcare coverage, you usually don’t have a doctor to ask. And you don’t have access to any treatment you might need if the tests show potential issues. Walgreens wasn’t offering Theranos tests for free and didn’t offer access to any healthcare professionals to help interpret any questionable results. 
 

ETA - in order to get a blood test at Walgreens, customers needed their  IDs, their insurance cards, AND orders from their doctors. So this technology didn’t help the uninsured in any way, and the only difference for patients was the finger prick vs traditional blood draw.

Here in Australia we can see the doctor for free and all our blood work tests are free ( funded by government Medicare ) 

I couldn’t imagine having to pay for blood tests for a whole family when required !! 

[Cinnabon]

33 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

This is how I understood it too. Instead of a blood draw, it would be a much less painful finger prick. My understanding too, or at least what I remember from the book, is that you don't need a doctor's order to get this process done. Anyone, whenever they feel like it, can just go to Walgreens, tell the technician they want to check their iron, hormones, etc., get a blood sample drawn and then get that result to their doctor. So Theranos wanted to theoretically put the decision to get checked AND be checked directly to the patient, skipping their doctor, thus saving time and cost, to get that doctor's appointment, get checked by the doctor first, and getting that lab order from their doctor.

You can get blood tests done without a doctor’s order in some states, but not in all states.  
 
In my experience, finger pricks can sometimes be more painful than the traditional venipuncture, depending on the skill of the phlebotomist. 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Cinnabon]

35 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

This is how I understood it too. Instead of a blood draw, it would be a much less painful finger prick. My understanding too, or at least what I remember from the book, is that you don't need a doctor's order to get this process done. Anyone, whenever they feel like it, can just go to Walgreens, tell the technician they want to check their iron, hormones, etc., get a blood sample drawn and then get that result to their doctor. So Theranos wanted to theoretically put the decision to get checked AND be checked directly to the patient, skipping their doctor, thus saving time and cost, to get that doctor's appointment, get checked by the doctor first, and getting that lab order from their doctor.

Patients don’t usually know which specific tests to order , though. And again, most also can’t interpret them without professional help either. Insurance companies wouldn’t be likely to pay for blood panels ordered without a physician’s order. 

26 minutes ago, Skala said:

Here in Australia we can see the doctor for free and all our blood work tests are free ( funded by government Medicare ) 

I couldn’t imagine having to pay for blood tests for a whole family when required !! 

But do you all need doctors’ orders before you get your bloodwork done? You don’t decide which tests you want done without professional input, do you? 

And yes, the US system of healthcare is shameful. At least 27 million citizens here still have no healthcare coverage at all, and even more are underinsured.

 

[SoWindsor]

I watched the ABC report on Elizabeth and they didn’t mention that Ian’s wife, Laurie Metcalf and William H Macy got the ball rolling. I had no idea and thought iI was just Tyler. 

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

But do you all need doctors’ orders before you get your bloodwork done? You don’t decide which tests you want done without professional input, do you? 

In most cases yes, but there are also times where people are like, "I feel there's something wrong with me", or "I'm having this persistent headache for a week now," or "I've been coughing nonstop", and want to have some bloodwork done immediately without the full doctor appointment/approval process

[Samsnee]

After this episode, I am eagerly waiting for the cathartic release when they finally expose her for the fraud she is. 

[Jordan Baker]

I loved this episode. It was suspenseful, poignant, and exasperating. It even had a tiny bit of humor (Sunny, in the background as Tyler was seranading Elizabeth, munching on the cookie decorated with Elizabeth's face).

And the small touches are so well done. When Ian's widow answers the door, she is clearly in a bad state, as anyone experiencing grief might be. She looks like someone who is having a hard time functioning at all, and one small detail that symbolizes her state is that her roots are an inch or so long. The next time we see her, she looks determined and full of purpose. And her roots are gone. 

Kate Burton is wonderful in this small role. As are Laurie Metcalf and William H Macy in their roles. I can't think of anyone in the cast who isn't doing a first-rate job.

So, a question--did Elizabeth make Tyler repeat the song to humiliate him or because she wanted to hear her praises sung (literally) again? Or both?

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jordan Baker

[Cinnabon]

52 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

In most cases yes, but there are also times where people are like, "I feel there's something wrong with me", or "I'm having this persistent headache for a week now," or "I've been coughing nonstop", and want to have some bloodwork done immediately without the full doctor appointment/approval process

Sure, but how would they know exactly which tests/panels to request? I get a lot of headaches - which blood test should I get? Lipid panel? CBC? Basic metabolic panel? Liver panel? Etc etc etc.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by Cinnabon

[MsTree]

6 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

In my experience, finger pricks can sometimes be more painful than the traditional venipuncture, depending on the skill of the phlebotomist. 

As someone with hard-to-find veins that have been blown by a few phlebotomists, I'll take the painful finger prick all day long.

[sandrajane]

5 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I watched the ABC report on Elizabeth and they didn’t mention that Ian’s wife, Laurie Metcalf and William H Macy got the ball rolling. I had no idea and thought iI was just Tyler. 

No, the show is accurate on that account.  Dr. Fiesz was reading a blog about Theranos and their wonky science and then contacted the WSJ journalist.  Fuisz and Gardner knew each other and then eventually met Mrs. Gibbons.  They had a group chat where they would talk about Theranos.  

[BusyOctober]

18 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

hope Grandpa gave Tyler a huge apology when he was proven right.

Spoiler

Sadly, nope. Their relationship was pretty much damaged. He blamed Tyler for the fall of Theranos.  I think he couldn’t admit he was duped so badly, and didn’t want to look like a doddering old senile fool.  Well, Sir, if walks like a duck….

 

[bluegirl147]

15 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I dunno, I always felt like I must be missing something about why Theranos was such a genius idea ... like, "ooh, look at our teeny tiny test tube that we call a nanotainer!  Isn't it better than a big stupid test tube?!"  Uh, sure, I guess?   In the end, I suppose I wasn't missing much!

When Elizabeth was trying to get investors she would say this device would be used on the battlefield and if I'm not mistaken said Thernos had a contract with the Dept. of Defense (although I don't think that contract ever existed).  Not quite sure why people would think a device that could diagnose diseases or give test results for routine things would be needed on the battlefield to help wounded soldiers.  I think a lot of people (almost all men) fell for the salesperson and not the sales pitch.  EH was playing the role of genius inventor and people believed it.  

12 hours ago, xaxat said:

As someone with really hard to find veins, that would be a significant quality of healthcare improvement.

I have very small veins. I'm a very difficult stick.  They almost never get me on the first try.  With that being said I would still prefer a vein draw than a finger prick.  

12 hours ago, slowpoked said:

My understanding too, or at least what I remember from the book, is that you don't need a doctor's order to get this process done. Anyone, whenever they feel like it, can just go to Walgreens, tell the technician they want to check their iron, hormones, etc., get a blood sample drawn and then get that result to their doctor.

So I wonder who is paying for the blood work?  The patient?  The insurance company?  Not quite sure an insurance company would want to pay for blook work just because someone wants to have blood work done.  

Once people started actually looking at the nuts and bolts of Elizabeth's grand vision it was seen as the gigantic mess it really was.

10 hours ago, slowpoked said:

In most cases yes, but there are also times where people are like, "I feel there's something wrong with me", or "I'm having this persistent headache for a week now," or "I've been coughing nonstop", and want to have some bloodwork done immediately without the full doctor appointment/approval process

 

9 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Sure, but how would they know exactly which tests/panels to request? I get a lot of headaches - which blood test should I get? Lipid panel? CBC? Basic metabolic panel? Liver panel? Etc etc etc.  

And let's not forget the machines weren't giving accurate readings.  We have enough people reading Web MD and diagnosing themselves.  This would have just made things so much worse.

[MaggieG]

I liked that this episode really highlighted what it was like to work at Theranos and to see it through Erika. First the multiple NDA's, then covering the camera on her computer so she couldn't be watched, security everywhere, Sunny and that other guy always hovering around, the errors on the machine. Then as soon as Erika questions something, she gets moved. And of course her working alone on Thanksgiving, having a problem, calling that number and some random person shows up to override the machine. I can't imagine what employees went through on a day to day basis. 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:04 AM, SlovakPrincess said:

It's nice being able to watch Ebon Moss-Bachrach in something where I don't simply want his character to get hit by a bus (I hated his aggressively annoying Girls character so, so, so much - and he did a fine job with that role, that one-note character just never should've lasted more than one season.)  

I was wondering where I knew that actor from! Yes, that character was terrible. 

I looooove Dr Gardner and her hatred of Elizabeth. I also loved Rochelle giving her a hug and saying let's take her down.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

So, a question--did Elizabeth make Tyler repeat the song to humiliate him or because she wanted to hear her praises sung (literally) again? Or both?

Mostly the first thing imo but I'm sure she enjoyed the second thing as well lol.

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I think a lot of people (almost all men) fell for the salesperson and not the sales pitch.  EH was playing the role of genius inventor and people believed it.  

The pitch also included "how many women inventors are really out there?". You're right. And these powerful men, loathe to admit they're wrong, stuck with her through the bitter end. 

 

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I have very small veins. I'm a very difficult stick.  They almost never get me on the first try.  With that being said I would still prefer a vein draw than a finger prick.  

I would want the option of a finger prick. 38 years old and I still look away when they do blood draws on me.

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

So I wonder who is paying for the blood work?  The patient?  The insurance company?  Not quite sure an insurance company would want to pay for blook work just because someone wants to have blood work done.  

Once people started actually looking at the nuts and bolts of Elizabeth's grand vision it was seen as the gigantic mess it really was.

EH's pitch was that this service was eventually going to be covered by insurance. Remember there was a little nugget in this episode, or earlier episode probably, about how they're monitoring the progress of Obamacare through Congress. 

Yes, like I said, the vision was noble. Who wouldn't want to know what all their health problems were based on one drop of blood?! But like Ian and the other scientists have told her, the technology was still years away. Which in hindsight, is quite hilarious to me. That was 2011-2013. 9+ years in, and the technology still isn't here. No matter which way it went, Theranos wouldn't have survived for that long. Even in the alternate world that EH didn't lie about the efficacy and effectivity of her invention, or didn't use Siemens machines, or fake readings and tests, investors would eventually start pulling out over an invention that's still not working 10+ years in.

I remember a joke during the height of the covid-19 pandemic that if Theranos had actually worked as its intended to, then covid-19 wouldn't have been as bad as it is. 

[lovinbob]

13 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

I loved this episode. It was suspenseful, poignant, and exasperating. It even had a tiny bit of humor (Sunny, in the background as Tyler was seranading Elizabeth, munching on the cookie decorated with Elizabeth's face).

And the small touches are so well done. When Ian's widow answers the door, she is clearly in a bad state, as anyone experiencing grief might be. She looks like someone who is having a hard time functioning at all, and one small detail that symbolizes her state is that her roots are an inch or so long. The next time we see her, she looks determined and full of purpose. And her roots are gone. 

Kate Burton is wonderful in this small role. As are Laurie Metcalf and William H Macy in their roles. I can't think of anyone in the cast who isn't doing a first-rate job.

So, a question--did Elizabeth make Tyler repeat the song to humiliate him or because she wanted to hear her praises sung (literally) again? Or both?

So agree on this whole post. The cookie bite was delightful. Kate Burton’s roots—subtle and perfect. The team of Gardner, Gibbons, and Fuisz (as Gardner and Fuisz bicker and Gibbons remains laser focused on bringing Elizabeth down. I am not a William H Macy fan but the three of them together were perfect. 

also, I thought Elizabeth in her socially clueless way asked Tyler to sing it again because she thought it would be a compliment to him. 

13 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Sure, but how would they know exactly which tests/panels to request? I get a lot of headaches - which blood test should I get? Lipid panel? CBC? Basic metabolic panel? Liver panel? Etc etc etc.  

Further proving how little people understood the science. Like there could be a magical machine that instantly detects disease from a drop of blood. 

8 hours ago, sandrajane said:

No, the show is accurate on that account.  Dr. Fiesz was reading a blog about Theranos and their wonky science and then contacted the WSJ journalist.  Fuisz and Gardner knew each other and then eventually met Mrs. Gibbons.  They had a group chat where they would talk about Theranos.  

I love this so much.

I thought the Erica Cheung actress stole the episode. That aspect of the story is so compelling. 

It was interesting what a poor job Elizabeth was doing with the filming. Just shows that the media machine is what made her. She wouldn’t have been able to pull off this huge fraud without the help of her image makers and powerful people. 

Sam Waterston was an odd choice to play Schulz, but he sure does do a great job with the befuddled, smitten old guy. 

[Rootbeer]

16 hours ago, slowpoked said:

This is how I understood it too. Instead of a blood draw, it would be a much less painful finger prick. My understanding too, or at least what I remember from the book, is that you don't need a doctor's order to get this process done. Anyone, whenever they feel like it, can just go to Walgreens, tell the technician they want to check their iron, hormones, etc., get a blood sample drawn and then get that result to their doctor. So Theranos wanted to theoretically put the decision to get checked AND be checked directly to the patient, skipping their doctor, thus saving time and cost, to get that doctor's appointment, get checked by the doctor first, and getting that lab order from their doctor.

As noted above, there are state laws governing blood work.  In some states, you need a pratitioner's order (doctor, physician assistant or nurse practitioner).  

The main advantage of Theranos' machine that I could see was that it was small and compact, and if it had worked, it could have been used in situations, such as in underserved areas.  For example, people who live in isolated areas could go to the doctor and get the blood work right there rather than having to drive miles and miles to a lab.  Of course, they probably drove miles and miles to get to the doctor in the first place.  The small quantity of blood needed would make it easier to run large numbers of tests on a single patient, but most people don't need 100 tests at a time.

I do some medical volunteer work in underdeveloped countries and I could see some use for it there, but, even so, it's value would be limited, especially without practitioners to order the proper tests and interpret the results.

Quote

 And again, most also can’t interpret them without professional help either. Insurance companies wouldn’t be likely to pay for blood panels ordered without a physician’s order. 

Even with a doctor's order, insurance companies can refuse to cover testing.  They tell people stuff like, 'if your doctor feels it is necessary, we will pay for it'.  They forget to mention that they sometimes disagree that a test is necessary, in which case, they won't pay, no matter what the doctor thinks.  Try to get an insurance company to approve an MRI sometime, I've purchased cars with less paperwork.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Rootbeer

[slowpoked]

14 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

I loved this episode. It was suspenseful, poignant, and exasperating. It even had a tiny bit of humor (Sunny, in the background as Tyler was seranading Elizabeth, munching on the cookie decorated with Elizabeth's face).

I must say, I think Amanda Seyfried is killing it. I didn't really follow this series from the start, but I binge-watched the first five episodes and I'm now all caught up. Is this the series where Kate McKinnon was supposed to star as EH?

I would have preferred Amanda's voice to be lower, but there's only so much you can do with that. I love the dancing scene with Sunny because it brought the cringe it was supposed to do. The audience was supposed to cringe at that scene, just like how the public cringed when the personal texts of EH and Sunny became public. And I did cringe at the dancing. Naveen is also doing great work as Sunny. I'm loving this series so far, now that they're deep into the fraud of the whole saga.

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

Is this the series where Kate McKinnon was supposed to star as EH?

Yup

[Cinnabon]

11 hours ago, MsTree said:

As someone with hard-to-find veins that have been blown by a few phlebotomists, I'll take the painful finger prick all day long.

Unfortunately, blood in the veins and capillary blood (fingertips) isn’t quite the same. For some tests, blood from the veins is necessary. Something Theranos also ignored. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Cinnabon

[bluegirl147]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Unfortunately, blood in the veins and capillary blood (fingertips) isn’t quite the same. For some tests, blood from the veins is necessary. Something Theranos also ignored. 

I'm sure anyone that brought that to their attention was cast out.  

I know I keep saying it but I'm just baffled so many otherwise intelligent people just bought what this woman was saying.  

[lovinbob]

Here's a question I meant to ask. Is Elizabeth that pretty? Blond, fit, big eyes, but ... nothing to write home about. Certainly not someone who I'd think would be capable of making the rich and powerful swoon. 

It would have been very interesting to see Kate McKinnon in this role, possibly too comical? (Another SNL performer, Chloe Fineman, does a great impression.)  Regardless, Amanda Seyfried is killing it.

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Unfortunately, blood in the veins and capillary blood (fingertips) isn’t quite the same. For some tests, blood from the veins is necessary. Something Theranos also ignored. 

Yep - as one expert in the field pointed out on a show I watched - capillary blood passes through layers of tissue and is contaminated with things such as skin cells, topical applications, etc.

[Carolina Girl]

7 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I'm sure anyone that brought that to their attention was cast out.  

I know I keep saying it but I'm just baffled so many otherwise intelligent people just bought what this woman was saying.  

The trick was that outside of Theranos, no one knew nothing was working.  Walgreen's thought the samples were being run on the Edison (they probably didn't even know at headquarters everything was being sent to Palo Alto to be run on the Siemens machines).  It was the local phlebotomists in Arizona that were voicing concerns (but not too loudly, as I'll bet you anything THEY had to sign NDA's as well because they were going to be within six feet of Holmes' nonfunctioning (and probably not plugged in) cubic foot paperweight in the wellness center. 

And since she had those contracts with Walgreen's and Safeway, claimed that Defense Department contracts had been signed, and the the FDA had approved them, everyone assumed the technology was viable and actually up and running.  It was the allegations being made by Carreyou in the Journal that started everyone questioning.  I hope they get into Carreyou's deposition by the Bois lawyers - I've seen clips - he had them running around in circles.

And really - who the hell is comfortable at a birthday party where everyone's wearing a mask of YOUR face? I got the skeeves just watching it.  

[Cinnabon]

12 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

It was the local phlebotomists in Arizona that were voicing concerns (but not too loudly, as I'll bet you anything THEY had to sign NDA's as well b

Just the fact that they needed to hire trained phlebotomists should have been suspicious to Walgreens. You don’t need to be a trained phlebotomist to do finger stick testing. I did it myself when I worked in a clinic 25 years ago, with no formal medical training at all. It’s very simple to do. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Cinnabon

[qtpye]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:26 AM, SonofaBiscuit said:

I did not realize that Dr. Phyllis Gardner, Richard, and Ian's widow banded together to take Elizabeth down.  I thought it all started with Tyler contacting John Carreyrou, so I was pleasantly surprised there, ha.  Loved Dr. Phyllis Gardner asking "Why does everybody want to believe in this girl so badly?"  Yes Phyllis, YES, I don't get it either!

Uh, that birthday party with the Elizabeth masks was creepy as hell.  Yikes.  And then requesting that Tyler sing that cheesy ass song twice?  Double-yikes!

Enjoyed Erika chewing Tyler out because he didn't believe (at first) that Elizabeth could have known anything about what was going on at her company.  Tyler seemed like a decent guy, and I'm glad he wanted to protect Erika and her job.  Grandpa Schultz was kind of a delusional A-hole, though.  Like why would you believe Elizabeth over your own grandson (who has a work colleague backing him up)?  Shameful.

Sunny, "I am your King"

Me: Bwaaa haaaa haaa

You are just another stupid old man she was conning. Now you will probably take all the blame for the company because she claims you "manipulated and abused her"

1 hour ago, lovinbob said:

Here's a question I meant to ask. Is Elizabeth that pretty? Blond, fit, big eyes, but ... nothing to write home about. Certainly not someone who I'd think would be capable of making the rich and powerful swoon. 

It would have been very interesting to see Kate McKinnon in this role, possibly too comical? (Another SNL performer, Chloe Fineman, does a great impression.)  Regardless, Amanda Seyfried is killing it.

You would be surprised at how just having blonde hair and being trim just shoots you into being beautiful with most men in America.

Also, I felt like these rich guys thought "she's one of us" which is the elite beautiful people were taken in by her supposed intelligence and compassion. I feel like George looked at her as a granddaughter.

George came off like a doddering old fool in the book and the same can be said for here.

Love Tyler and Erica. My heart breaks for Ian's widow.

Edited March 25, 2022 by qtpye

[Carolina Girl]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I did it myself when I worked in a clinic 25 years ago, with no formal medical training at all. It’s very simple to do. 

Not to mention every diabetic in America .....

Interesting that you mention this because I didn't catch that little fact.  

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Now you will probably take all the blame for the company because she claims you "manipulated and abused her"

That certainly seemed to be an important part of her defense strategy at trial.

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

My heart break's for Ian's widow.

When she reached out to hug Phyllis, I felt the tears well up.  I'd have told Richard he could fucking wait outside, due to his rude failure to call before coming over - "I wasn't sure she'd see us".  Not US, Mr. Man - YOU.  It was YOUR effing bruised ego and that patent that got that whole lawsuit ball rolling to begin with.  She was far more gracious to you than I would have been.

[Madding crowd]

They did a good job of showing the atmosphere of fear and intimidation they had at Theranos. Besides the way employees were not allowed to talk to each other and the constant spying, there was the way people were called into Sunny's office where he was very threatening. I felt so bad for both Ericka and Tyler although I was surprised Sunny and Elizabeth were so forceful with Tyler considering they wouldn't know how his grandfather would react. In regard to her supposed invention: yes it was something new but I don't see anyway it would revolutionize the medical world at all. Most diseases cannot be diagnosed with just a blood test and there really is no value in letting people just order their own blood tests for any reason. If anything, it would lead to a lot of panicked calls to doctors and people worried about minor anomolys. 

I'm not even sure how Walgreens and Safeway would make so much money on this as most of the doctors and hospitals already have contracts with labs and there would be a lot of push back on transferring business to Walgreens. The thing that is the most annoying is Elizabeth constantly saying "It will no longer be too soon to say goodbye" when blood tests aren't going to detect cancer or other diseases on their own and if people are having symptoms, their doctor is already ordering tests. She also talks a lot about her uncle with skin cancer, but a blood test wouldn't have caught that, he needed an earlier biopsy perhaps or maybe nothing could have been done. 

[bluegirl147]

12 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I'm not even sure how Walgreens and Safeway would make so much money on this as most of the doctors and hospitals already have contracts with labs and there would be a lot of push back on transferring business to Walgreens.

If this thing had really worked it would have made sense for actual labs to use it.  But we know it didn't work and that is why Elizabeth wanted it placed in "wellness centers" so there wouldn't be as much oversight.  

[Cinnabon]

55 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

If this thing had really worked it would have made sense for actual labs to use it.  But we know it didn't work and that is why Elizabeth wanted it placed in "wellness centers" so there wouldn't be as much oversight.  

And either way the blood is procured,  by finger stick or venipuncture, the samples still must be packed up, picked up, and brought to a lab. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Cinnabon

[qtpye]

Hilarious and worth a watch, even if you hate James:

Amanda S is doing a great job but I think we are missing two things:

1. Holmes was part of a prestigious family that lost its money but still had access to an elite inner circle

2. The charm she had that convinced people she could do what she said

Tim Draper is a respected VC who still believes her to this day. He used to be her neighbor

Quote

 

Through thick and thin, scandal after scandal, Draper has been there by Holmes’s black-turtlenecked side, dismissing Theranos’s critics as haters, using the rather Trumpian “witch hunt” to describe any negative reporting on the company, and alleging that Wall Street Journal reporter John Carreyrou, who wrote a series of damning reports exposing the company’s phony technology, has a “vendetta” against Theranos. In 2016, the company told regulators that it had voided “all” of the blood-testing results from its Edison machines from 2014 and 2015. Tens of thousands of patients may have been given incorrect blood-test results, and their doctors may have administered unnecessary or potentially harmful treatment as a result. One tech investor I spoke with called Holmes “a criminal who should be in prison.” But Draper is a family friend, who lived in the same neighborhood as the Holmeses. His children grew up playing with Elizabeth. Where others saw a corrupt scheme to part credulous investors from their money, Draper saw a visionary ahead of her time.

And so, with a song in his heart and a bitcoin-patterned tie around his neck, Draper re-emerged to defend Holmes again on CNBC Thursday, in spite of the company’s recent troubles. “I feel we have taken down another great icon,” he said sadly. When asked if he was willing to admit he had been wrong about Theranos, Draper doubled down. “Absolutely not,” he said. But, the hosts of Closing Bell persisted, investors lost about $900 million on Theranos, which is said to be on the verge of bankruptcy. “And look what she did!” Draper interjected. “She created an amazing opportunity.”

 

This is the part I love:

Quote

 

Draper is right: aside from burning through hundreds of millions of dollars, dealing with a slew of federal investigations, not creating a marketable product, and attempting a series of failed pivots, Holmes did all right. She certainly had a vision. As for the future of the company, Draper is sure there’s more to come, despite the fact that as part of her settlement with the S.E.C. (in which she and Theranos were not required to admit wrongdoing), Holmes agreed to surrender voting control of Theranos and comply with a 10-year ban from serving as director or officer of a public company.

“It’s going to happen,” he said, of Theranos’s glorious future. “I am thrilled with what she’s done.”

 

 

[Carolina Girl]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

Tim Draper is a respected VC who still believes her to this day.

If I were an investor, I'd put pulling my money out of Tim Draper's organization ASAP.