S02.E04: Watcher

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

With time running out to save the future, Picard takes matters into his own hands and seeks out an old friend for help. Meanwhile, Rios ends up on the wrong side of the law and Jurati makes a deal with the Borg Queen.

Dropping Thursday, March 24, 2022

[salaydouk]

Someone please explain to me how 2024 Guinan doesn't know who Picard is immediately!??!?!?  Considering she first met him in Time's Arrow which took place in 1893?!?!  I mean her reaction should have been more akin to, "This isn't right... you should not be here."  Or could it be that they are saying that since the divergence took place the Time's Arrows events did not take place so Guinan never met him until just then?  Hmm...

And I thought Guinan in ep1 stated that she could age herself... okay that is fine. But I did not get the impression that it would be possible to de-age herself... or can she?  So how are we to work out that Guinan in Time's Arrow circa 1893 looked like Whoopi but now in 2024 looks younger?!?!?   So again... same question about divergence causing the difference... basically can Guinan can look different here because Time's Arrow did not occur so the image we have of Guinan "never happened" and has to be discarded?  Nice trick writers, nice trick... 

But this episode was really tongue in cheek...

• They really leaned in hard to Voyage Home... A bus, a mohawk puck, a boom box play the exact same song... at least they let us know that they know that we know they were being cheeky...
• Dixon Hill!!!! 
• Raffi the vigilante.... so much fun!  
• Raffi and Seven the bickering couple... even more fun! 
• And Rios channeling Sarah Connor... priceless! 
• And WOW "The Changeling" shoutout with the Jackson Roykirk Plaza... sweet!  

[millennium]

3 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Someone please explain to me how 2024 Guinan doesn't know who Picard is immediately!??!?!?  Considering she first met him in Time's Arrow which took place in 1893?!?!  I mean her reaction should have been more akin to, "This isn't right... you should not be here."  Or could it be that they are saying that since the divergence took place the Time's Arrows events did not take place so Guinan never met him until just then?  Hmm...

I think we mindmelded because you just posted what I came here to ask, right down to "Someone please explain to me ..."

I'm not sure if the divergence would have affected Guinan's being in San Francisco in 1893.  But if the divergence happens in 2024, it means Picard never became Captain of the Enterprise in the 24th century and thus never traveled back to 1893 in Time's Arrow, so it follows he never met Guinan.  The thing is, Guinan knows when she is in the presence of time anomalies and situations that are wrong in time.   She knew it very distinctly in Yesterday's Enterprise.   This Guinan should have intuited that.

Guinan's personality, speech patterns and mannerisms have been consistent --  in 1893, aboard the Enterprise when Kirk was caught in the Nexus, a century later aboard Picard's Enterprise, and in the year that Star Trek: Picard is set.   I don't know why the writers altogether abandoned that persona in favor of the one in this episode.

I thought Rios' description of Picard as a "flesh and blood robot" sounded bigoted.  Am I wrong in remembering that synthetic lifeforms were recognized as persons in Measure of a Man?   I know they later rebelled, but did they lose their standing and their rights to respect as sentient lifeforms and now it's okay to disrespect them as "robots?"  I guess it could be argued that he used "flesh and blood robot" to be more easily understood by the oafish ICE agent, but he didn't dumb down anything else he said.  

The homage to "The Voyage Home" aboard the city bus played a bit lame.

I was hoping for somebody else to be the Watcher, preferably a surprise appearance by someone from TNG.

It would have been funny if Q snapped his fingers and the only result was a waiter bringing him a menu.

Best line again goes to Jurati, doing Picard-as-a-child: "Milk, chocolate.  Hot."

Edited March 24, 2022 by millennium

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, salaydouk said:

And I thought Guinan in ep1 stated that she could age herself... okay that is fine. But I did not get the impression that it would be possible to de-age herself... or can she?  So how are we to work out that Guinan in Time's Arrow circa 1893 looked like Whoopi but now in 2024 looks younger?!?!?   So again... same question about divergence causing the difference... basically can Guinan can look different here because Time's Arrow did not occur so the image we have of Guinan "never happened" and has to be discarded?  Nice trick writers, nice trick... 

Simple - it was too expensive to digitally de-age Whoopi Goldberg for an entire episode, and even if they had tried people would have bitched about the dodgy effects.  Using present day Whoopi?  People would have bitched about how she went from young in the 1890s to older in the 2020s back to young in TNG.  

3 hours ago, salaydouk said:

They really leaned in hard to Voyage Home... A bus, a mohawk puck, a boom box play the exact same song... at least they let us know that they know that we know they were being cheeky...

It was the same guy (Kirk Thatcher) too.  36 years later and he still enjoys lugging around a boombox.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

It was the same guy (Kirk Thatcher) too.  36 years later and he still enjoys lugging around a boombox.

He is the true Watcher... Anyone that tells him to turn off the song MUST be from the future

5 hours ago, salaydouk said:

• And Rios channeling Sarah Connor... priceless! 

The Doctor is Sarah Connor and Rios is Kyle Reese from the future to impregnate her and guarantee his own eventual birth....

 

5 hours ago, millennium said:

The thing is, Guinan knows when she is in the presence of time anomalies and situations that are wrong in time.   She knew it very distinctly in Yesterday's Enterprise.   This Guinan should have intuited that.

Never expect anything from Akiva Goldsman to be consistent with canon - Batman, Lost In Space etc...

[MissLucas]

I'm with Janeway when it comes to time-travel shenanigans. Don't think about it too much and just go with the flow. The actress playing 'young' Guinan did a good job and looked really striking even though I prefer older and more mellow Guinan.

The best scenes were between Agnes and the Queen. The ongoing buddy movie that is Raffi and Seven was also great. It's so much fun to see Seven being the one with social grace for a change. And the powerplay between Agnes and the Queen has just started, that's something to look forward too.

Can't wait for Seven and Raffi to get Rios out - his plot was way too predictable. I suppose they will keep the Doctor around in some capacity. Time travel plots normally require someone in the know.

I see that Patrick Stewart's love for pit bulls has made it into the show. Judging from pics that wasn't his dog though. The 'identity' of the Watcher became clear right after the intro. Why else bring up Laris? Still not interested in Picard's mummy issues. 

Q's finger-snap not working was probably the most intriguing thing. Maybe he screwed up the timeline bad enough that it's now affecting him too? 

Edited March 24, 2022 by MissLucas

[Zonk]

I never thought they would sink so low to recast Guinen. Boo.

7 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Someone please explain to me how 2024 Guinan doesn't know who Picard is immediately!??!?!?  Considering she first met him in Time's Arrow which took place in 1893?!?! 

One thing you should realise: These writers don't know Star Trek. They have watched a few tentpole episodes but that is it.

I mean when Data told Guinan in 1893 that he is an android and they'll serve on a star ship in the future together, she was like "yeah k, whatever". When Picard told her here she had a way, way, way too strong reaction for the character. Even before, when she thought he was just an alien.

7 hours ago, salaydouk said:

But I did not get the impression that it would be possible to de-age herself... or can she? 

They never said anything to that effect. They made it seem like she could only chose to age faster, not age backwards.

Also shape changing was never on the table. So recasting her was just a dick move. She looked the same in 1893 as she did in the 24th century, so why does she look completely different in 2024? It doesn't even seem like she will be much in this season. They really must have had a massive budget cut. Being set in the 2020s cuts down on scifi sets and they still can't even spring for a few minutes of de-aging CGI.

7 hours ago, millennium said:

I'm not sure if the divergence would have affected Guinan's being in San Francisco in 1893.  But if the divergence happens in 2024, it means Picard never became Captain of the Enterprise in the 24th century and thus never traveled back to 1893 in Time's Arrow, so it follows he never met Guinan.

Is that how time travel works? I don't think it used to be that way. But I guess how time travel works changes from episode to episode. So whatever.

7 hours ago, millennium said:

Guinan's personality, speech patterns and mannerisms have been consistent --  in 1893, aboard the Enterprise when Kirk was caught in the Nexus, a century later aboard Picard's Enterprise, and in the year that Star Trek: Picard is set.   I don't know why the writers altogether abandoned that persona in favor of the one in this episode.

Probably because that was all Whoopie Goldberg and the writers and director don't actually know Guinan enough to make it consistent. *sigh*

7 hours ago, millennium said:

It would have been funny if Q snapped his fingers and the only result was a waiter bringing him a menu.

Just like if with the "let me catch up"-line in episode one he had first into a halloween skeleton, before turning into current day de Lancie.

Sadly the writers don't get the humor that always came with Q.

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

People would have bitched about how she went from young in the 1890s to older in the 2020s back to young in TNG.  

They could have just changed the line in episode one from "yeah I sped up my aging" to "yeah, we don't actually age slowly, we can control our age at will. I like to mix it up." That would have explained the fluctuating age and would have been less dumb than her to die 1000 years earlier just because people looked at her funny for not aging.

Recasting was unnecessary and disrespectfull.

[salaydouk]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

I think we mindmelded because you just posted what I came here to ask, right down to "Someone please explain to me ..."

I'm not sure if the divergence would have affected Guinan's being in San Francisco in 1893.  But if the divergence happens in 2024, it means Picard never became Captain of the Enterprise in the 24th century and thus never traveled back to 1893 in Time's Arrow, so it follows he never met Guinan.  The thing is, Guinan knows when she is in the presence of time anomalies and situations that are wrong in time.   She knew it very distinctly in Yesterday's Enterprise.   This Guinan should have intuited that.

Guinan's personality, speech patterns and mannerisms have been consistent --  in 1893, aboard the Enterprise when Kirk was caught in the Nexus, a century later aboard Picard's Enterprise, and in the year that Star Trek: Picard is set.   I don't know why the writers altogether abandoned that persona in favor of the one in this episode.

Best line again goes to Jurati, doing Picard-as-a-child: "Milk, chocolate.  Hot."

Yeah definitely mindmelded because I came to the same conclusion myself.  And totally agree that Guinan should have known the minute she saw Picard something was wrong.  Heck in actually she should have been thinking every since 1893 something was "off" and Picard showing up in 2024 should have confirmed it immediately. 

Agreed, the personality change in Guinan was a bit much. But perhaps that is a function of how long she had been on Earth.  I can't remember if we were told in Time's Arrow just how long she had been on Earth by then. But perhaps she had been on Earth for so long that by 2024 she was just completely jaded and had changed.  And that it took the 400 years of human evolution for her to go back to her serene self. 

Loved the hot chocolate line too... 

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Simple - it was too expensive to digitally de-age Whoopi Goldberg for an entire episode, and even if they had tried people would have bitched about the dodgy effects.  Using present day Whoopi?  People would have bitched about how she went from young in the 1890s to older in the 2020s back to young in TNG.  

It was the same guy (Kirk Thatcher) too.  36 years later and he still enjoys lugging around a boombox.

Yeah I get all the technical reasons why they did what they did... but really since they could have just had Guinan say she can age herself as well as de-age herself and that would have been the end of that line of disconnect. 

So it was the _same_ guy... I thought he looked familar but wasn't sure... But that now makes his very quick agreement to turn the boom box off make sense. 

2 hours ago, paigow said:

The Doctor is Sarah Connor and Rios is Kyle Reese from the future to impregnate her and guarantee his own eventual birth....

He was more like Sarah when he was ranting about the future and his mission and basically spilling the truth to the ICE agent... just like the video shown of Sarah in T2 talking to her shrink about what was going to happen in the future..  But yeah everything else about that subplot screams The Terminator. 

 

 

[paigow]

33 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

He was more like Sarah when he was ranting about the future and his mission and basically spilling the truth to the ICE agent

Maybe Rios is supposed to die here... like Data getting his head blown off in San Francisco...

[salaydouk]

13 hours ago, Zonk said:

I never thought they would sink so low to recast Guinen. Boo.

One thing you should realise: These writers don't know Star Trek. They have watched a few tentpole episodes but that is it.

I mean when Data told Guinan in 1893 that he is an android and they'll serve on a star ship in the future together, she was like "yeah k, whatever". When Picard told her here she had a way, way, way too strong reaction for the character. Even before, when she thought he was just an alien.

Also shape changing was never on the table. So recasting her was just a dick move. She looked the same in 1893 as she did in the 24th century, so why does she look completely different in 2024? It doesn't even seem like she will be much in this season. They really must have had a massive budget cut. Being set in the 2020s cuts down on scifi sets and they still can't even spring for a few minutes of de-aging CGI.

Is that how time travel works? I don't think it used to be that way. But I guess how time travel works changes from episode to episode. So whatever.

Recasting was unnecessary and disrespectfull.

Yeah these writers don't know Star Trek.  The rant there is... this is SciFi which by in large attacts people who enjoy and appreciate long story arcs and are into details. So when no attention is paid ... lets just say I get really irked! :) 

Agreed hated the recast and it makes no sense and the fact that they did not setup ahead of time in anyway is just annoying. 

As for time travel aspect... everything up to 2024 would have occurred normally to an extent. But after the divergence what we know happened didn't happen and based on the 24th century we saw it is unlikely the time trip that Picard took to 1893 ever happened. So Picard and Guinan would not have met until in the bar in this Alt-Timeline.  That said... because Picard did not go back it doesn't mean that the events of Time's Arrow not including the Enterprise's involvement did not take place.  So the timeline post 1893 should also be "different" as well.  But just how much we will not ever be told within the confines of this show.  

Now for a slight rant.... 

In Episode1, I let it go that Guinan's future bar had an address of 10 Forward in the "Histortic Foward District." I let it go becuase this was occuring after the events of TNG( where we first heard the term 10 Forward in ST canon)  and so it was easy to think Guinan found a way to place her bar using a name that "had meaning."  But to now find out that Guinan has probably run/owned a bar at an address of 10 Forward for at least 400 years just doesn't make sense.   The usage and the reason for the name 10 Foward was 100% related to the Enterprise and the bar's location on the ship which in turn is based on real world US Navy nomenclature - the bar was on Deck 10 in the forward section of the ship.  She could not have named her bar something for which she had absolutely no context/knowledge of and the coincidence is not believeable

 

12 hours ago, paigow said:

Maybe Rios is supposed to die here... like Data getting his head blown off in San Francisco...

Maybe... And like Elnor when the timeline is rectified he will be alive again... 

Edited March 25, 2022 by salaydouk

[Zonk]

8 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

The usage and the reason for the name 10 Foward was 100% related to the Enterprise and the bar's location on the ship which in turn is based on real world US navy nomenclature - the bar was on Deck 10 in the forward section of the ship.  

Yeah, the writers don't know that. It already came up sometime last season, I'm pretty sure. They think it's just a name and probably thought they were clever to show here "what the origin of the name is".  -.-

[salaydouk]

15 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Yeah, the writers don't know that. It already came up sometime last season, I'm pretty sure. They think it's just a name and probably thought they were clever to show here "what the origin of the name is".  -.-

I will need to go back to watch season one... if they did drop something. 

Agreed writer's are totally off and think they are cute... when they are just 💩

It is just super funny and annoying because I specifically remember the start of TNG Season 2 when they announced the character of Guinan. I recall seeing a few of the TNG actors in interviews discussing the new set of "10 Forward" and why it had that name and explaining the US Navy's habit of referring to certain locations aboard ship simply by its location instead of function. So if the actors can get it... why can't the writers. Just 💩! 

Edited March 24, 2022 by salaydouk

[dwmarch]

That dude has been riding around on the bus for almost 40 years playing the same song? I think he's the real Watcher. Interesting that this is only the second time anyone has ever told him to knock it off. You'd think the bus drivers would be wise to his shit by now especially since he's the only dude walking around with a vintage boombox. A boombox is not a toy.

This episode leaned a little heavier into humor than any previous episodes (I don't think there was much humor in season 1 at all except for Pimpin' Picard on Freecloud) but I'm glad we're not taking ourselves too seriously here. I especially liked this exchange:

Seven: you can do that (starting up the cop car) but you can't just unlock the door?!
Raffi: oh, I could have but that was more fun.

Too bad they never played Grand Theft Auto (like Rios did!) or they might have thought of turning on the sirens. You just got off a ship called La Sirena!

[Zonk]

16 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

I will need to go back to watch season one... if they did drop something. 

I might be wrong. Might be I'm conflating it with the first episode of this season. Time seems to be meaningless at the moment. Probably not worth to go back and suffer through season 1.

[salaydouk]

1 minute ago, Zonk said:

I might be wrong. Might be I'm conflating it with the first episode of this season. Time seems to be meaningless at the moment. Probably not worth to go back and suffer through season 1.

Yeah I was not relishing the idea of watching Season 1 again... 

 

13 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

This episode leaned a little heavier into humor than any previous episodes (I don't think there was much humor in season 1 at all except for Pimpin' Picard on Freecloud) but I'm glad we're not taking ourselves too seriously here. I especially liked this exchange:

Seven: you can do that (starting up the cop car) but you can't just unlock the door?!
Raffi: oh, I could have but that was more fun.

Too bad they never played Grand Theft Auto (like Rios did!) or they might have thought of turning on the sirens. You just got off a ship called La Sirena!

Yeah and I found the levity to be fun.  

Also a fun was the shout out to the movie Starman during the Cop chase/Seven driving... 

Seven:  Wait what does the yellow light mean?

Raffi: Go faster... No red means stop! No red means stop! No red means stop! 

Starman  - Jeff Bridges Alien character, "Red light stop. Green light go. Yellow Light go very fast. "

 

[Llywela]

Wow, you guys are buzzkills. So much negativity. 😟

Guinan doesn't recognise Picard because the timeline has been changed. The change hasn't happened yet, but the impact has, and it rippled both forward and backward in time. The team travelled back in time from the Confederation timeline, in their Confederation bodies, from a Confederation future that will remain the default unless they prevent the change from taking place - in that Confederation future, Picard never became friends with Guinan and never travelled back in time to meet her in the 19th century, which is why she doesn't recognise him here. Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. There are lots of different ways time travel can be shown to work in film and TV. We saw though that she reacted to him repeating her own future words back to her, and she had a strong reaction to his name, demonstrating that despite being affected by the timeline change, something deep in her subconscious does recognise him.

Guinan was recast for the 2024 sequence because digital de-aging isn't good enough yet for such an extensive role. It isn't disrespectful. It's just practical. Her lines as written were fine for a jaded, world-weary Guinan who has lived through too many Earth atrocities by this point, I could easily imagine Whoopi Goldberg delivering most of her lines, it was just that the actress, although excellent, doesn't have Whoopi's distinctive voice and didn't quite capture her style of delivery.

The writers know the history of the show as well as any of us. But they also have to balance that with the dramatic requirements of the story they are telling now, and sometimes that means making compromises.

Guinan's bar being at 10 Forward Ave and the cameo by the bus guy are just fun little Easter eggs for fans. There's no point in over-thinking them. (10 Forward bar did not come up at all last season, no. The bar at 10 Forward Ave is new for this season.)

I am really enjoying this season. I enjoyed this episode, which zipped along with a nice blend of action, drama and humour. Multiple sub-plots mean there is always something going on, and the covid bubbling isn't too obvious, although it is apparent. Raffi and Seven make for quite the double act!  I did feel like we missed a step with them, as they have clearly abandoned their assigned mission to trace the Watcher in favour of trying to find Rios and we didn't see them make that decision on-screen, but we can fill in the gaps easily enough. Poor Rios is having a rough time of it! "Why does the past hurt so much?" They should manage to spring him next episode, though, so they can all get back on mission. And I'm intrigued to see how Agnes and the Queen's sparring plays out. It's all good stuff. 🙂

Edited March 24, 2022 by Llywela

[DrBriCa]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

I thought Rios' description of Picard as a "flesh and blood robot" sounded bigoted.  Am I wrong in remembering that synthetic lifeforms were recognized as persons in Measure of a Man?   I know they later rebelled, but did they lose their standing and their rights to respect as sentient lifeforms and now it's okay to disrespect them as "robots?" 

I believe the ruling on sentience in "Measure of a Man" was more applicable to Soong-type androids with the positronic brains. (At least, I remember in the novels that was how they kept going back to it.) The synths on Mars seemed to have more basic programming. Voyager much later also had a similar ruling on sentience for The Doctor, but in that instance they specified that they were only applying it to The Doctor and not to other holograms unless on a case-by-case basis. But in any case, I didn't find the comment too pejorative but more like Rios still wrapping his brain around a synth with human memories in a super-lifelike body that will continue to age & die.

3 hours ago, salaydouk said:

As for time travel aspect... everything up to 2024 would have occurred normally to an extent. But after the divergence what we know happened didn't happen and based on the 24th century we saw it is unlikely the time trip that Picard took to 1893 never happened. So Picard and Guinan would not have met until in the bar in this Alt-Timeline.  That said... because Picard did not go back it doesn't mean that the events of Time's Arrow not including the Enterprise's involvement did not take place.  So the timeline post 1893 should also be "different" as well.  But just how much we will not ever be told within the confines of this show.  

I definitely think they needed Picard to make a side comment like “Of course! My team from the altered future likely never met Guinan in the 1890s....” I was WAY too distracted all episode by her otherwise not remembering him, even more so than the recast.

It does make for an interesting timey-whimey thought, though. Why should the team be so concerned about 'butterflies' if there are already alterations caused by the lack of temporal incursions from Picard (and presumably Kirk, Janeway, and even Quark)? Even this 2024 is a slight alteration from how their 2024 should be if Guinan can't remember Picard. I suppose since the Devidians were only targeting already-dying people in 1890's SF, there wouldn't have been much change had the Enterprise-D team been around to not stop them...

I could watch spinoffs of Raffi/Seven and Agnes/Borg Queen all day!

 

[Zonk]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Guinan was recast for the 2024 sequence because digital de-aging isn't good enough yet for such an extensive role.

It is good enough. It's just very expensive. Guess that shows where their priorities are.

Also, as already stated, they could have just used current day Whoopy Goldberg, with a little tweak to her explaination in episode 1.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

It isn't disrespectful.

It very much is.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

It's just practical.

It's lazy. They were even too lazy to make sure that she acted like the real Guinan.

Then again, Picard doesn't act like Picard, so I guess that's par for the course.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Her lines as written were fine for a jaded, world-weary Guinan who has lived through too many Earth atrocities by this point, I could easily imagine Whoopi Goldberg delivering most of her lines, it was just that the actress, although excellent, doesn't have Whoopi's distinctive voice and didn't quite capture her style of delivery.

She didn't capture the character at all. I could see a Guinan who has given up on humanity, but this wasn't it.

The writing didn't work, so yes even her lines were wrong. Compare how she reacted to an Android in 1893, who told her about their andventures on a future spaceship, to how she reacted to an old man in her bar.

But yes, also her delivery was wrong, for which I blame mostly the director and not the actress.

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

The writers know the history of the show as well as any of us. But they also have to balance that with the dramatic requirements of the story they are telling now, and sometimes that means making compromises.

You are giving them waaaaaay too much credit. It is apparent all the time that they don't know much. It has nothing to do with balancing requirements. You can see it all over the place. Just from this episode, how did storytelling require that Guinan's bar is in 10 foreward? There is no reason for it, other than the writers trying to be clever and revealing how dumb they are in the process.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Zonk

[salaydouk]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Wow, you guys are buzzkills. So much negativity. 😟

The writers know the history of the show as well as any of us. But they also have to balance that with the dramatic requirements of the story they are telling now, and sometimes that means making compromises.

I am really enjoying this season. I enjoyed this episode, which zipped along with a nice blend of action, drama and humour. Multiple sub-plots mean there is always something going on, and the covid bubbling isn't too obvious, although it is apparent. Raffi and Seven make for quite the double act!  I did feel like we missed a step with them, as they have clearly abandoned their assigned mission to trace the Watcher in favour of trying to find Rios and we didn't see them make that decision on-screen, but we can fill in the gaps easily enough. Poor Rios is having a rough time of it! "Why does the past hurt so much?" They should manage to spring him next episode, though, so they can all get back on mission. And I'm intrigued to see how Agnes and the Queen's sparring plays out. It's all good stuff. 🙂

Come on... forum sites are all about negativity. 😜

And I would say the jury is really out on if they really know the show... There are too many _large_ compromises.  

But generally speaking I am also enjoying this season as well... I am not sure if Raffi and Seven are really a mis-step - their subplot is more akin to the Voyage Home and rescuing Chekov from the hospital.

8 hours ago, DrBriCa said:

I definitely think they needed Picard to make a side comment like “Of course! My team from the altered future likely never met Guinan in the 1890s....” I was WAY too distracted all episode by her otherwise not remembering him, even more so than the recast.

It does make for an interesting timey-whimey thought, though. Why should the team be so concerned about 'butterflies' if there are already alterations caused by the lack of temporal incursions from Picard (and presumably Kirk, Janeway, and even Quark)? Even this 2024 is a slight alteration from how their 2024 should be if Guinan can't remember Picard. I suppose since the Devidians were only targeting already-dying people in 1890's SF, there wouldn't have been much change had the Enterprise-D team been around to not stop them...

Saying something would have been welcome. I had the distraction problem for the timeline circle more then the recast as well. Considering that in Yesterday's Enterprise Guinan noticed the change immediately.  And she should have been feeling a change for over 100 years by this point and seeing Picard should have been like getting hit by a tractor-trailer.  At some point during her meeting Picard this should have come up... she should not have had to have Picard repeat back words to her before she had confirmation something was wrong/believe him. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by salaydouk

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

It's lazy. They were even too lazy to make sure that she acted like the real Guinan.

When TNG had the transporter accident that turned Picard & Guinan into teenagers... that actress should have been tracked down to play a 35-40 year old Guinan...

[salaydouk]

1 minute ago, paigow said:

When TNG had the transporter accident that turned Picard & Guinan into teenagers... that actress should have been tracked down to play a 35-40 year old Guinan...

Yes!!!  She had an uncanny resemblance to Whoopi and had the personality down too.  

The episode you are thinking about is titled "Rascals" and is one of my personal favorites.  Side note, the kid they had playing Ro Laren was on point as well. Which leads to another side note wondering if Season 3 will bring about the return of Ro Laren.  I don't believe there is anything in canon that states what happen to her after she joined the Maquis.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Compare how she reacted to an Android in 1893, who told her about their andventures on a future spaceship, to how she reacted to an old man in her bar.

An excellent point.

[Zonk]

44 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

But generally speaking I am also enjoying this season as well...

I have to say, this season is a lot better than the last one so far (although if I were mean I'd say that that is not saying much) and I am enjoying it for the most part. Still, there is just so much wrong with current Trek (except Lower Decks) and I need a place to blow off steam and that place is here. Sorry... not sorry. 😜

Edited March 24, 2022 by Zonk

[marinw]

So the original Picard Estate didn’t get destroyed in the fire referenced in Generations. The house is different than the one in “Family” Fair enough, things filmed thirty years apart are going to look different. It bends my mind that more time has passed between TNG and Picard than between TOS and TNG

2024 Guinan is much younger that the 1893 Guinan. So the 1893 version time travelled back in time for some reason.

Leaving poor Agnes alone with the Queen seems like a very bad idea.

Still no sign of Dahj/Soji. 

[chaifan]

OK, so is Watcher Laris actually Laris?  Or is she just in Laris form?  Or mostly Laris form?  And if so, what's the point?  Whatever the answer is, I will admit they got me with that one.  I didn't expect Laris at all.  I honestly had no idea who to expect.  I'm interested to see where it goes from here, because the Watcher is a real dick.  And I like Laris, so I'm happy to see the character and actress back for at least part of this season.

I am going to agree with the theories, above, that the events in TNG's Time's Arrow never happened in this timeline, so there is no reason for Guinan to remember Picard.  But there's no reason to believe that Guinan was not on Earth and palling around with Mark Twain, looking all of about 40 years old in the 1800's.  So they really should have come up with something, something!, that explains why she looks 20 something in 2024.  I mean, come on writers!  You're writers!  Science fiction writers!  That's your job!  Honestly, since this seems to be a one episode bit for 2024 Guinan, it didn't really need to be Guinan, and they could have had the same actress just play her sister or cousin or whatever, with Guinan being "out of town" that week.  It would have required a little more dialog for Picard to convince her that he knew (will know) Guinan, but they would have ended up in the same place - leading Picard to the Watcher - and I think it would have made the fans happier than this mishmashretconmess they ended up with. 

I went to IMDB and looked up young Guinan from TNG Rascals.  She's only played 2 roles - both being a young Whoopi.  TNG in 1992 and Sister Act the same year.  I think Will Wheaton should track her down for his show. 

I loved the Raffi & Seven scenes.  It's hard to watch old Voyager episodes with Seven now, seeing her so stiff and constrained.  I feel bad that Jeri Ryan was given so little to work with as that version of Seven.  It must have been rather boring (not to mention uncomfortable, as she's said in various interviews).  She really seems to have fun with the role now. 

And speaking of having fun... Alison Pill is really rocking it, especially with her banter with the Borg Queen.  Agnes is such a better character this season.  I'm assuming at some point the Queen is going to take over Agnes, even temporarily, because that's what they do.

Oh, poor Q.  His effectless finger click was so "oh, I swear, that's never happened before".  I wonder if the Continuum has a little blue pill for that...

So Rios' communicator badge is still hanging around the doctor's office.  I think that's how we're going to see the doctor again at some point.

 

[Stardancer Supreme]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Wow, you guys are buzzkills. So much negativity. 😟

Guinan doesn't recognise Picard because the timeline has been changed. The change hasn't happened yet, but the impact has, and it rippled both forward and backward in time. The team travelled back in time from the Confederation timeline, in their Confederation bodies, from a Confederation future that will remain the default unless they prevent the change from taking place - in that Confederation future, Picard never became friends with Guinan and never travelled back in time to meet her in the 19th century, which is why she doesn't recognise him here. Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. There are lots of different ways time travel can be shown to work in film and TV. We saw though that she reacted to him repeating her own future words back to her, and she had a strong reaction to his name, demonstrating that despite being affected by the timeline change, something deep in her subconscious does recognise him.

Guinan was recast for the 2024 sequence because digital de-aging isn't good enough yet for such an extensive role. It isn't disrespectful. It's just practical. Her lines as written were fine for a jaded, world-weary Guinan who has lived through too many Earth atrocities by this point, I could easily imagine Whoopi Goldberg delivering most of her lines, it was just that the actress, although excellent, doesn't have Whoopi's distinctive voice and didn't quite capture her style of delivery.

The writers know the history of the show as well as any of us. But they also have to balance that with the dramatic requirements of the story they are telling now, and sometimes that means making compromises.

Guinan's bar being at 10 Forward Ave and the cameo by the bus guy are just fun little Easter eggs for fans. There's no point in over-thinking them. (10 Forward bar did not come up at all last season, no. The bar at 10 Forward Ave is new for this season.)

I am really enjoying this season. I enjoyed this episode, which zipped along with a nice blend of action, drama and humour. Multiple sub-plots mean there is always something going on, and the covid bubbling isn't too obvious, although it is apparent. Raffi and Seven make for quite the double act!  I did feel like we missed a step with them, as they have clearly abandoned their assigned mission to trace the Watcher in favour of trying to find Rios and we didn't see them make that decision on-screen, but we can fill in the gaps easily enough. Poor Rios is having a rough time of it! "Why does the past hurt so much?" They should manage to spring him next episode, though, so they can all get back on mission. And I'm intrigued to see how Agnes and the Queen's sparring plays out. It's all good stuff. 🙂

I think what is happening in these forums and on social media is that folks want the perfect Trek that resides in their heads instead of enjoying the Modern Trek that we are given.  I liked the actress cast as Young Guinan and can handwave the differences as the time/space travel shenanigans that all captains hate so much.

Now I will only quibble about Rios' treatment in the past thus far.  Why have him in a precarious situation knowing that he can't get healed instantaneously and complete his mission.  Hell, that drop could have killed him!  Continuing the torture (him getting tased) is also not my jam.  Seven and Raffi are hitting it out of the park, as well as Agnes and Borg Queen.  I can see the strings coming together in regards to what happens in the future.  Q said that all of this was a result of JLP's choices; maybe blowing up the Stargazer wasn't the right choice?  The Future BQ told Picard to "Look up", which doesn't track with Agnes being the FBQ (as a result of this time/space shenanigan) causing the ruckus on the Stargazer and requesting his help.   But the writers are bringing Picard's mother into this narrative for a reason, so I will just hope that it is written well.

So the Watcher is Laris and Q's powers don't work in this timeline?  I want to see more of that next week.

[Zonk]

38 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I think what is happening in these forums and on social media is that folks want the perfect Trek that resides in their heads instead of enjoying the Modern Trek that we are given. I liked the actress cast as Young Guinan and can handwave the differences as the time/space travel shenanigans that all captains hate so much.

Nah, I just want good writing and competent show runners.

DS9 wasn't a perfect utopia. It showed the boundaries of federation ethics in the face of war. It's the best Trek show there is, imo.

Modern Trek has just been horrible television for the past few years, that would have been cancelled after half a season if it didn't have the Star Trek name attached. Discovery got a bit better this last season and it seems Picard is doing so as well, but it's still not great TV. Kinda mediocre, entertaining schlock. That is a huge step up from before, but it's still not where good Trek, or TV in general, should be.

I think regarding recast Guinan I've said my piece.

[salaydouk]

4 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I think what is happening in these forums and on social media is that folks want the perfect Trek that resides in their heads instead of enjoying the Modern Trek that we are given.  I liked the actress cast as Young Guinan and can handwave the differences as the time/space travel shenanigans that all captains hate so much.

I can't/won't say there isn't a contingent of persons on these forums who are as you describe.  However speaking for myself, I ain't expecting perfection  What I am expecting however is a Trek that has consistent storytelling and that holds itself to ST canon( otherwise why have it?) and at the very least explains itself when it "fudges."  This particular ST show is about a much beloved character who has a rich backstory that is well known to ST viewers in very nuanced detail. This show is/was banking on that nostalgia to lure viewers - so if you want the older viewers you have to "do your homework".  So while I am all for the occasional "fudge", in my opinon the "fudges" in this episode are a bit extreme and  hard to just wave off - it makes me think the writers were writing for ST newbies instead of long running fans. But juxtaposing that idea against the in-jokes/references to Voyage Home in the episode makes my head hurt.  So basically, you shouldn't be dropping "easter eggs" if you are not holding yourself to canon.  Again just my two cents. 

4 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Now I will only quibble about Rios' treatment in the past thus far.  Why have him in a precarious situation knowing that he can't get healed instantaneously and complete his mission.  Hell, that drop could have killed him! 

Yeah I had the same thought that he could have been killed by that fall, my laughing pretty hard when I first watched that scene in the last episode aside. 😬  I honestly just don't like the subplot which just seems like a giant in-joke/reference to Voyage Home instead of being important to the story.   But I guess we will have to wait out the remaining episodes to know.  

Edited March 25, 2022 by salaydouk

[Starchild]

Minor point: those Confederation communicator badges are freakin' HUGE!

Major point: Seven and Raffi are the buddy cop movie I never knew I always needed.

[thuganomics85]

Heh, definitely got a kick out of the callback to Voyage Home and the boombox punk, only it ending with Seven just scaring him into shutting it off instead of getting nerve-pinched.  And hearing that it was the same actor means that, yep, I'm totally going with him being the same guy and not wanting a repeat of that situation!

So, the coordinates lead to Picard finding Guinan after-all, but she isn't the Watcher and was a younger, non-Whoopi Goldberg version instead.  I guess they didn't want to de-age her here or didn't want to try and find an explanation to just have her be the age of current Whoopi.  The actress was solid enough, but I don't think I can see her being the same Guinan that we will see in the future/Next Generation.  But, whatever, I'm not that concerned over it.  But it looks like the Watcher is actually some kind of version of Laris?  Not sure what to make of that yet.

Rios is still in ICE's clutches and his on his way to the border now.  But fear not: Raffi and Seven are on the case!  Well, as long as it doesn't involve Seven having to drive an "ancient" vehicle that ends with them baring avoiding several wrecks and getting chased by the police!

Aww, Agnes might have found a new friend and admirer!  Too bad it's the Borg Queen...

As untrustworthy as he is, Q potentially losing his powers is very troubling.  What could be strong enough to accomplish that?

[Stardancer Supreme]

Amazon X-Ray tells us who that woman was in Q's scene. I wondered who she was... 

Spoiler

Renee Picard.

 

[salaydouk]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Amazon X-Ray tells us who that woman was in Q's scene. I wondered who she was... 

  Reveal spoiler

Renee Picard.

 

Spoiler

Ah...are you talking about Picard's nephew Rene Picard?

The actor who played Rene, and also Picard in "Rascals", is David Tristan Birkin (yes nephew of Jane Birkin) is nearly 45 years old now.  So in all aspects I am not understanding how Amazon is saying what it is saying?!?!?!?

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by salaydouk

[DrBriCa]

22 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

  1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Amazon X-Ray tells us who that woman was in Q's scene. I wondered who she was... 

  Reveal spoiler

Renee Picard.

 

  Reveal spoiler

Spoiler

I would assume that "Renee" Picard would be a distant but noteworthy great-great-great (etc.) grandmother to Jean-Luc & Robert, which would then have led the latter to continue the name in the masculine form "Rene" for his son/JL's nephew.

 

[Chyromaniac]

14 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Too bad they never played Grand Theft Auto (like Rios did!) or they might have thought of turning on the sirens. You just got off a ship called La Sirena!

Interesting connection.  Although, I’m fairly sure that in this case, La Sirena means “The Mermaid.”

I’m good with “young Guinan”- I thought Ito Aghayere did a great job in the role, and I feel like the writing and performance fits how she might feel about living through contemporary America.  El-Aurians are “listeners,” so she almost can’t help but take in all the negativity and discord that surrounds us.  I’m just now watching Daredevil, and she reminds me of Matt talking about how he does what he does because he hears every cry for help around him.  This is a Guinan who’s heard enough from us - and can you blame her?  So sure, it takes someone like Jean-Luc Picard to shake her out of her cynicism and show her the possibility of the future.  At least it’s enough for her to help him now- and hopefully by the end of this arc, she’ll be back on course to becoming the Guinan of TNG and beyond.

Otherwise, I’m fine with the idea that whatever timeline fracture happened to create the dystopian Earth of 2400 somehow resulted in a “younger” Guinan (funny, considering Ito is roughly only 3 years younger than Whoopi was in her first appearance) residing in 2024 LA, than she would have been in Time’s Arrow, the Enterprise B incident, and so on. If they choose to address all that in the show, that’s fine- but honestly, “how this fits into canon” is a pretty low priority for me in terms of storytelling.  Canon has its uses- but I feel like when the writers try to logic their way into resolving every little continuity issue, we often end up with stories that doesn’t say anything of value about the characters or situations at hand.  I just rewatched Voyager’s Time and Again for a podcast I enjoy- and that’s a show that does a good job of maintaining continuity between what happens to Paris & Janeway in their time displacement, and what the others discover in the aftermath.  But in the end they hit the reset button, and go along their merry way without saying anything about the crisis on the planet of the week, or making many lasting insights into the crew.  So for Star Trek Picard, what matters to me is the story being told in this show, and right now I think it’s really getting interesting.

Beyond that, the battle of wills between Agnes and the Queen is heating up nicely.  Raffi and Seven navigating the past continues to be fun, and I enjoyed their chase scene.  I’m curious to see how they plan to bust Rios off a prison bus on foot- but I guess we’ll find out soon enough.  And then there’s the implications of Orla Brady playing the Watcher- or is it supervisor?  Hmm- have we heard that term somewhere before?  For people who don’t know anything about Star Trek, these writers seem to be making some deep cuts…

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, Zonk said:

DS9 wasn't a perfect utopia. It showed the boundaries of federation ethics in the face of war. It's the best Trek show there is, imo.

And back in the day DS9 was roasted for not being real Trek.  Real Trek is supposed to be about exploring strange new worlds, not fighting a war.  And what's with the sinister side of Starfleet?  Section 31?  Sisko dragging the Romulans into the war?  The Federation is supposed to be what we aspire too, not something that should be dragged down to match what we are now.  God, those writers didn't know a thing about what Trek is supposed to be.  Plus this serialized format is stupid - are we really supposed to watch every episode to keep up?  Sound familiar?

If they can work out the scheduling Ito should be a guest on the View.  She and Whoopi can discuss whether or not casting her was this grand, disrespectful act or not.

[Llywela]

11 hours ago, Zonk said:

It is good enough. It's just very expensive. Guess that shows where their priorities are.

No, it really isn't good enough. Even when done well, with massive amounts of budget thrown at it, the results still come off stiff and lacking in emotion. And this show does not have anything like that kind of budget. Casting a younger actor to play a younger version of a character is not disrespectful at all, it is standard industry practice and always has been.

7 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Now I will only quibble about Rios' treatment in the past thus far.  Why have him in a precarious situation knowing that he can't get healed instantaneously and complete his mission.  Hell, that drop could have killed him!  Continuing the torture (him getting tased) is also not my jam.  Seven and Raffi are hitting it out of the park, as well as Agnes and Borg Queen.  I can see the strings coming together in regards to what happens in the future.  Q said that all of this was a result of JLP's choices; maybe blowing up the Stargazer wasn't the right choice?  The Future BQ told Picard to "Look up", which doesn't track with Agnes being the FBQ (as a result of this time/space shenanigan) causing the ruckus on the Stargazer and requesting his help.   But the writers are bringing Picard's mother into this narrative for a reason, so I will just hope that it is written well.

I kind of think Rios's story needed to be this blunt, because by the standards of Past Trek we are now living in the future and that future is every bit as bad as the Treks of 20-30 years ago predicted it would be at this point, if not worse, and that's a lesson that deserves to be underlined. Also, I've seen loads of people grumbling that this show needs more filler to flesh out the characters and let them breathe a bit, which is exactly what the Rios sub-plot is giving us, both for him and for Raffi and Seven, as they try to rescue him. Watching Rios attempt to navigate this dangerous situation all alone with no recourse is fleshing out his character a lot, cementing things we already knew about him and filling in additional details along the way. It has demonstrated his impulsiveness, his recklessness, his kindness and his courage - trying to help when he sees people in need is hard-wired in him, he can't not do it, even at cost to himself; we saw examples of that back in season one, even while he wanted so badly to convince the universe that he no longer cared about anything, and we've seen it again this season, multiple times now, he sees someone in trouble and tries to help even when he has no idea what he is getting himself into, even if it means putting himself in harm's way. Starfleet to the core, just as Picard recognised back when they first met. We've seen both his laid-back charm and his biting snark on full display. We've seen again that he over-acts when called on to play a role (see: his exaggerated reaction to the cookies while trying to entice the kid into giving back his comm badge, a call-back to how awkward he was when asked to play the part of a...what did they call it? A Facer, in Stardust City Rag, which was a perfect demonstration of what happens when you send an introvert to a bar and tell them to be outgoing!) Last week he told that little story about his mother teaching at the Academy and how he beat the top score in the simulator when he was only 8, and this week he confirmed that his mother is now dead, which builds on what we learned in season one, that he latched onto Captain Vandermeer as a father-figure, implying that he didn't have a father in his life when he was growing up. And so on, all valuable character information, which was sorely needed, since season one didn't do the best job of establishing the new characters. 

And with Seven and Raffi on his trail together, the storyline is also fleshing out their relationship, giving us an up close and personal look into how they interact, how they relate to one another, how beautifully they balance each other out - whenever one starts to spiral, the other is there to ground her - and also how they rub each other up the wrong way. All sorely needed, since season one only hinted at a connection between the two of them in their final scene, and then season two jumped forward a couple of years to a point where they are already in an established relationship but struggling to make it work. Now we're getting to see that struggle in practice. I love that Seven could handle the mechanics of driving a car, just about - she did spent a few years on Voyager with Tom Paris, after all - but had absolutely no idea how to handle driving in traffic. 😄 That was perfect. Also, watching Raffi stressing out about Rios being kidnapped by ICE is also a timely reminder that despite barely interacting at all so far this season, those two were established last season as having a long and close friendship. So with Elnor already lost (and yeah, that was a relationship that needed more groundwork - even a single scene together in the season premiere would have helped), I guess we can understand that Raffi is really, really not prepared to lose anyone else she cares about. I do think the episode could have underlined that point a bit more and made it clearer why they decided to go looking for Rios instead of continuing their assigned mission to search for the Watcher - the end of last week laid the groundwork, showing us that they were struggling to find any traces that might be the Watcher, and then picked up a signal from Rios's comm badge behaving oddly, but there was a bit of a leap from there to them actually going to the clinic in search of him, which might have benefitted from a line or two of dialogue to acknowledge that they were abandoning the search for the Watcher for now, because a) it's proved to be a dead end anyway, and b) they are worried about Rios. It probably could also have been clearer that they were so alarmed to hear of his arrest that they forgot all about the comm badge, which they knew damn well was at the clinic, but that's a minor detail, easily extrapolated from context anyway. They are probably going to have to go back to retrieve it now.

I thought Ito Aghayere did a fine job of portraying a younger, more disillusioned Guinan, one who had no memory of meeting Picard in 1893 to give her hope for humanity's future, a Guinan who has lived through all the atrocities of the last 130 years without that hope and only sees things getting worse rather than better. I think both storylines - Rios and Guinan - are 100% Star Trek, shining a light onto the darkness and saying 'yes, things are bad, but they can get better.' Change can come - our characters, visiting 2024 from a much brighter future, stand as proof that a brighter future is possible. Sometimes that change comes later than we hope it will, it can be a long and painful road to get there, but Star Trek always insists that change is possible, that it will happen, we just have to keep fighting for it. Which is what this season is all about, so far - fighting to make a change, fighting for the hope of a brighter tomorrow.

A lot of this episode was setup for payoff down the track, but that's fine, it did its job and was entertaining along the way. Thumbs up from me.

[Zonk]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

No, it really isn't good enough. Even when done well, with massive amounts of budget thrown at it, the results still come off stiff and lacking in emotion.

Marvel did it 99,9% convincing 6 years ago. The technology is good enough. Also it wouldn't have been necessary anyway. They just took the lazy way out.

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

And this show does not have anything like that kind of budget. Casting a younger actor to play a younger version of a character is not disrespectful at all, it is standard industry practice and always has been.

Where has that been industry practice? We aren't talking flashbacks, where the older actor is still very much in the show or a reboot here.

It is especially disrespectfull since Whoopie Goldberg is right there. Since they gave some wonky explaination for her aging anyway, there was no reason to not have her reprise her role in 2024. Except that it seems they wanted someone "young and hip", which is not Guinan and never was, even when she was turned into a child.

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

And back in the day DS9 was roasted for not being real Trek.  Real Trek is supposed to be about exploring strange new worlds, not fighting a war.  And what's with the sinister side of Starfleet?  Section 31?  Sisko dragging the Romulans into the war?  The Federation is supposed to be what we aspire too, not something that should be dragged down to match what we are now.  God, those writers didn't know a thing about what Trek is supposed to be.  Plus this serialized format is stupid - are we really supposed to watch every episode to keep up?  Sound familiar?

I can't speak to stupid people from 30 years ago, sorry.

But that's also not my argument. Not sure if you are deliberately misrepresenting it or didn't understand it. New Trek being different is fine (although I question why you'd want to be generic scifi #893 instead of being unique). What isn't fine is that the writing is/was mostly hot garbage. What also isn't fine is ignoring canon. You have to give reasons why you are different. Otherwise don't call your show "Star Trek".

TNG was quite different from TOS, DS9 was quite different from TNG. That's all fine. It just has to be good.

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If they can work out the scheduling Ito should be a guest on the View.  She and Whoopi can discuss whether or not casting her was this grand, disrespectful act or not.

Sure, actors are always honest about their feelings in public talk shows.

Even if Whoopie Goldberg doesn't think it's disrespectfull, I think it is.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Zonk

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Zonk said:

It is good enough. It's just very expensive. Guess that shows where their priorities are.

I just don’t understand why this is a bad thing. Spending massive amounts of their set budget de-aging a character here is unnecessary from a story standpoint. 

7 minutes ago, Zonk said:

It is especially disrespectfull since Whoopie Goldberg is right there. Since they gave some wonky explaination for her aging anyway, there was no reason to not have her reprise her role in 2024. Except that it seems they wanted someone "young and hip", which is not Guinan and never was, even when she was turned into a child.

This assumes Whoopi actually wanted to reprise her role in a more substantial way. Unless she says that she felt disrespected and wanted to play the younger version of herself it feels premature to get upset on her behalf. Fans often have pie in the sky expectations of what movies and shows should do that ignores real world limitations. 

[Stardancer Supreme]

9 minutes ago, Dani said:

I just don’t understand why this is a bad thing. Spending massive amounts of their set budget de-aging a character here is unnecessary from a story standpoint. 

This assumes Whoopi actually wanted to reprise her role in a more substantial way. Unless she says that she felt disrespected and wanted to play the younger version of herself it feels premature to get upset on her behalf. Fans often have pie in the sky expectations of what movies and shows should do that ignores real world limitations. 

Whoopi was recovering from sciatica at the time of filming and may not have been able to move around well.  If she says she was disrespected on the set of ST:P, then I will light fires. I'm sure Sir Patrick treated Whoopi like the Queen she is.  

[MissLucas]

Well, here's TPTB's explanation why Guinan did not recognize Picard. In short: Picard & Co did not just travel back in time but they are in an alternate timeline where there never was a Federation *pops one of Janeway's time-travel aspirins*

As for recasting Guinan - as long as Whoopi is okay with the decision I'm okay with it too. She has enough clout to speak her mind.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

Marvel did it 99,9% convincing 6 years ago. The technology is good enough. Also it wouldn't have been necessary anyway. They just took the lazy way out.

Where has that been industry practice? We aren't talking flashbacks, where the older actor is still very much in the show or a reboot here.

You are comparing a Marvel movie to a TV show? But no, even with a Marvel budget, there was still a degree of uncanny valley, still a degree of flatness. We have already seen the level of de-aging this show can afford. It isn't nearly good enough for what this role required. If you want your character to be able to emote even a little bit, you need an actual actor. Unless you'd rather they aired six minutes of immaculately de-aged Whoopi and 40 minutes of blank screen because there was no budget for anything else?

Also, I'm not doing your homework for you. How do you think the industry coped before de-aging tech began to be developed? There are plenty of examples out there. You can go away and research them for yourself if you don't believe me. There was no disrespect. Casting a younger actor to play a younger version of a character, whether in flashback or not, is a very, very normal thing to do. I don't know why you are so bent out of shape over it. It just doesn't pay to get so caught up in the gears of the storytelling that you lose all sight of the bigger picture. Be generous instead, suspend your disbelief, and just enjoy the story being told. What matters is that it is the same character, so why waste time debating the very practical production choice to re-cast when we could instead be talking about how hard it must have been for Guinan to live through the events of the last 130 years, especially in a timeline where she didn't get to meet Picard in 1893 to give her hope for the future?

Edited March 25, 2022 by Llywela

[mrspidey]

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But it looks like the Watcher is actually some kind of version of Laris?  Not sure what to make of that yet.

 

Here's an idea, based on the smoky portal sfx:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDyTVvPzNzU

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by mrspidey

[Chaos Theory]

If you are not going to butterfly effect the shit out of time then what is the point of going back in the first place? Heck you can Sisko time or maybe just Ferengi it. 

The funniest thing about time travel shows is that technologically advanced races with computers that calculate anything don't have detailed information on the 21st century or at least people don't read them.  But then again going blindly into danger is the fun.

I kinda like bitter Guinan

“You and I trade sad sack stories in between pressing catastrophes.”   If that does not signal the start of a beautiful friendship or the start of a fanfic community I don’t know what does?

Patrick Stewart is one of the executive producers and a friend of Whoopie Goldberg.   If they both wanted Whoopie to be in more episodes she would have been.   Sometimes recasting a young version of a character makes sense for the show.  It just does.  Its like saying "Why isn't Patrick Stewart playing the child version of himself?"

Edited March 25, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

If Alt!Guinan failed to recognize Picard, Alt!Laris has no idea who this old dude is either... 

[Starchild]

On the topic of de-aging tech, everything I've seen, I've been able to see the wires, until recently.

The ad with LeBron James talking to his younger self? That fooled me.

[Chaos Theory]

I really really don’t want to get into the debate but people bitch and moan when an actress has a nose job or a nip and a tuck.  And other shows where there was “deaging”. People complain about how it “takes them out of the show.”     What to do about Guinan?    A character with a long history on TNG that. PICARD  wanted to make as a young angry POC outsider alien tired of humans  one bad day away from leaving earth forever only to have the only person who could get her to stay enter her bar.    Do you make her as old as Picard is?   Do you some really bad special FX on her face to soften features we all know are there,  or do you hire a younger actress to play a younger version of the character who we can all believe has never met Picard because this version of history has changed.  If Picard isn’t Picard then Guinan wouldn’t be Guinan .     What came first the chicken or the egg?

Edited March 25, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

do you hire a younger actress to play a younger version of the character who we can all believe has never met Picard because this version of history has changed. 

TNG!Guinan had met Q before Picard met Q... would Alt!Guinan recognize this Q?? 

[SnarkShark]

I've taken craps that were better than this episode.  So stinky.  

Going with an actress even younger than Whoopi was when she was on TNG and living in the 19th century is the LEAST issue with this. I mean I get recasting younger Guinan rather than long extended CGI and it's no problem at all.  But actress Ito Aghayere is 29, and looks even a bit younger.   Whoopi was 37 in Time's Arrow and arguably looked older.  Aghayere appears to be a good forceful actress though, which is why I can ignore this I guess.

But Time's Arrow somehow didn't happen because the 21st century was changed?  How?  I mean unless both Guinan AND Picard were manipulated to magically forget it.  If the explanation winds up being that Picard never traveled to the past previously, because of the timeline changes, that is bullcrap, because the other timeline HAS TO still exist (split off) for THIS Picard with these memories to be able to operate.  This Picard existing means Time's Arrow happened.  Except, duh. Seven isn't in the same body (but Picard is, with a lame explanation).  A stupid contradiction.

My brain hurts considering this much stupid.

But there was much more stupid in this episode.  I'd have a huge post if I listed it all.  Everything from ICE acting like a certain guy is still in Office in 2024, to a Dixon Hill reference that seems horribly out of context from the person who made it, to the Agnes/Queen head games now being really tiresome, and so so much more stink.

I was skeptical a few episodes ago when people theorized Mama Picard is the Masked Borg Queen, but now I'm starting to believe the show might do something that dumb. We've been given the suggestion something terrible happened at Chateau Picard when Kiddie Jean-Luc lived there, but we've also over years been told that The Borg didn't know much about Earth (originally nothing, until Seven was introduced) and the idea of them having BEEN there to kidnap someone was silly. I mean it would be easy to make Mama Picard into a Starfleet officer assimilated in Space, but then why all the Chateau Picard drama?

As for the ending?  I'm already rolling my eyes at the possible explanation.  I'm assuming shapechanging or image from your mind type of alien.  I guess this isn't as bad as many of the episode choices, since Trek does both those things a lot.

Edited March 26, 2022 by SnarkShark

[Hiyo]

On 3/24/2022 at 10:23 PM, Llywela said:

Wow, you guys are buzzkills. So much negativity. 😟

Guinan doesn't recognise Picard because the timeline has been changed. The change hasn't happened yet, but the impact has, and it rippled both forward and backward in time. The team travelled back in time from the Confederation timeline, in their Confederation bodies, from a Confederation future that will remain the default unless they prevent the change from taking place - in that Confederation future, Picard never became friends with Guinan and never travelled back in time to meet her in the 19th century, which is why she doesn't recognise him here. Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey. There are lots of different ways time travel can be shown to work in film and TV. We saw though that she reacted to him repeating her own future words back to her, and she had a strong reaction to his name, demonstrating that despite being affected by the timeline change, something deep in her subconscious does recognise him.

Guinan was recast for the 2024 sequence because digital de-aging isn't good enough yet for such an extensive role. It isn't disrespectful. It's just practical. Her lines as written were fine for a jaded, world-weary Guinan who has lived through too many Earth atrocities by this point, I could easily imagine Whoopi Goldberg delivering most of her lines, it was just that the actress, although excellent, doesn't have Whoopi's distinctive voice and didn't quite capture her style of delivery.

The writers know the history of the show as well as any of us. But they also have to balance that with the dramatic requirements of the story they are telling now, and sometimes that means making compromises.

Guinan's bar being at 10 Forward Ave and the cameo by the bus guy are just fun little Easter eggs for fans. There's no point in over-thinking them. (10 Forward bar did not come up at all last season, no. The bar at 10 Forward Ave is new for this season.)

I am really enjoying this season. I enjoyed this episode, which zipped along with a nice blend of action, drama and humour. Multiple sub-plots mean there is always something going on, and the covid bubbling isn't too obvious, although it is apparent. Raffi and Seven make for quite the double act!  I did feel like we missed a step with them, as they have clearly abandoned their assigned mission to trace the Watcher in favour of trying to find Rios and we didn't see them make that decision on-screen, but we can fill in the gaps easily enough. Poor Rios is having a rough time of it! "Why does the past hurt so much?" They should manage to spring him next episode, though, so they can all get back on mission. And I'm intrigued to see how Agnes and the Queen's sparring plays out. It's all good stuff. 🙂

[marinw]

I can accept the casting change, but Guinan going from chill, philosophical Guinan to angry Guinan is a bit much. I know people are shaped by thier life experience and wisdom perspective can be gained from these experience's, but Guinan's baseline personality is just so different here. Is she on Earth before or after her home planet got Borged? Who knows.

Edited March 26, 2022 by marinw