S02.E05: An Unthinkable Fate

[Door County Cherry]

Airs March 25, 2022

[LadyChaos]

Lady Featherington just does not take responsibility and keeps digging that hole deeper and deeper.

I don't think Edwina really loves Anthony, I think she loves the idea of him.

Eliose is gonna get herself into trouble.

 

[Door County Cherry]

I am not a fan of the weird camera angles they employ with the almost kisses.  Especially since they don't really build up to it.

[SonofaBiscuit]

It was pretty obvious that Kate would conveniently need to be the engagement ring model for the jeweler. I’m only surprised that they didn’t have Anthony place the ring on her finger, LOL.

It makes me sad to think of Kate returning to India alone. I don’t think that’s going to happen, but the thought still makes my heart hurt :(

Ooh, Lady Danbury…a scandal, you say? Yes, please. It would probably be better for Edwina to end the engagement, but I’m not sure she’s going to do that.

I see you Anthony, trying to use the mess of a dinner with the Sheffields as your excuse to end the engagement. Unsuccessful, but nice try.

*fans self* Whew! The way that the Kate/Anthony stuff is playing out is much preferable to the Simon/Daphne ladder sex and stair sex and outdoor picnic sex, etc. I can’t believe the restraint Anthony has shown, quite honestly. Figured a kiss would have happened by now. And yeah, some strange camera work during the scene where Anthony tells Kate just how much he wants her.

Like, are they going to try something with Lady F and the cousin??? I am just getting a weird feeling 😂

Edited March 26, 2022 by SonofaBiscuit

[bijoux]

On rewatch this is one of the strongest episodes. There must have been at least one whiteboard in the writers' room outlining Kate and Anthony paralleling each other. It's not just their pull when they're together, it's things like Kate almost dropping her cup of tea while thinking of Anthony in the beginning of the episode and the same then happening later to Anthony when Hyacinth mentions Kate. It's him practically parroting what she told him about her wishes and feelings not having weight in the last episode to Violet when she wisely tried to bring the engagement to an end.

I gasped the first time I saw Anthony Head as Lord Sheffield, the big bastard. Although I admit to judging Lady Sheffield more harshly. But what a good episode for Mary that was after being a non-entity for the first four. First her excellent conversation with Kate and then just laying it all out at dinner. Justice for Mary.

Naturally, then comes Anthony's hero moment. He was like a pressure cooker there at dinner and then finally and painfully obviously blew when Kate was bearing the brunt of the attack. No matter how pissed and frustrated he was at her, that was simply unacceptable. When I thought there'd be nothing I loved more in this episode than the river scenes, with his fixation and 'that's my hand to hold, my laughter to drink up' written clearly in his 100 yard stare (really, I cannot imagine Daphne not smacking him upside the head had she been there) and that ridiculous flex about knots and sliding in to helo Kate out of the boat in front of Dorset's proffered hand, along comes this. Jesus, take me now.

I know people, rightly, point put the similarities to Pride and Prejudice, but damn if I don't see a lot of Sense and Sensibility's Elinor and Edward in them, being so bound by their obligations that they're unable to reach for what they want.

 

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Eliose is gonna get herself into trouble.

More likely, IMO, Pen/Lady Whistledown will get Eloise in trouble first.
Pen seems like a jealous little byotch under that sunny exterior.
And yet, perhaps Lady Whistledown blowing the whistle on Eloise's clandestine meetings will ultimately save Eloise from becoming pregnant. IDK. Would Eloise want to be "saved"? Probably not.

 

12 hours ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

*fans self* Whew! The way that the Kate/Anthony stuff is playing out is much preferable to the Simon/Daphne ladder sex and stair sex and outdoor picnic sex, etc. I can’t believe the restraint Anthony has shown, quite honestly. Figured a kiss would have happened by now.

Anthony repeatedly reminds both Kate and himself "I am a gentleman," and yet in the early scenes of this season, we see him leaving money with prostitutes. 
I like to think Eloise's boy friend (Calam Lynch as Theo Sharpe, printing press assistant) would respect women too much to hire prostitutes, but given the hard class divisions, I presume that if the pressman had the money for prostitutes, he would not be a pressman, and perhaps not so enlightened.
And/or maybe Theo would just pay them better out of respect, anyway.🤷‍♀️

Kate rose to new heights in my estimation when she told Anthony at the end that their passions would fade. I mean, they've only known each other a short time. 
Early in the season Lady Danbury told Kate that it was better to have loved and lost. 
If Kate can continue to exist in reasonable comfort alone, having lusty memories of Anthony seems better than later mourning his loss like Violet mourned Edmund.
But, alas, Mary's estranged mother-in-law turned out to be the ultimate wicked step-mother--perhaps even the prototype for all wicked step-mothers/Mommy Dearists.
And yet the Wicked Mother-in-law prevented Anthony from marrying the wrong sister (in the eyes of the viewers, at least). 
But really. If Anthony had married Edwina and he had forever pictured Kate when they had sex, is that not more common than not within marriages? 

So. 
Is it better to have meddling gossip columnists and mother figures, or not?

Edited March 26, 2022 by shapeshifter

[bijoux]

36 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

 Anthony repeatedly reminds both Kate and himself "I am a gentleman," and yet in the early scenes of this season, we see him leaving money with prostitutes. 

...
But, alas, Mary's estranged mother-in-law turned out to be the ultimate wicked step-mother--perhaps even the prototype for all wicked step-mothers.
And yet the Wicked Mother-in-law prevented Anthony from marrying the wrong sister (in the eyes of the viewers, at least). 
 

Actually, that was perfectly acceptable for gentlemen then. I mean, Eloise can be annoying, but she's not wrong. Ladies and gentlemen don't just live by different rules, they live on separate universes.

Oh, it's actually much worse. That was Mary's own mother.

 

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Oh, it's actually much worse. That was Mary's own mother.

Oh! Right! I edited my post a bit to reflect that.

20 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Actually, that was perfectly acceptable for gentlemen then. I mean, Eloise can be annoying, but she's not wrong. Ladies and gentlemen don't just live by different rules, they live on separate universes.

Yes, but I think they were wrong to consider themselves "gentlemen" just as, for instance, slave owners considered themselves "gentlemen." 
But I guess we were supposed to hear Anthony's "I am a gentleman" as trying to convince himself so that he might not cross the line he has drawn for himself to ultimately protect himself from *love* and the pain that can ultimately bring.
To be fair to Anthony, it's not his own pain he believes he is trying to prevent, but that of his future wife.

[bijoux]

26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Oh! Right! I edited my post a bit to reflect that.

Yes, but I think they were wrong to consider themselves "gentlemen" just as, for instance, slave owners considered themselves "gentlemen." 
But I guess we were supposed to hear Anthony's "I am a gentleman" as trying to convince himself so that he might not cross the line he has drawn for himself to ultimately protect himself from *love* and the pain that can ultimately bring.
To be fair to Anthony, it's not his own pain he believes he is trying to prevent, but that of his future wife.

Some of that, but a lot of not tangling with a respectable unmarried young woman. That was the line in the sand. Prostitutes, actresses, singers, willing widows and even married women who'd given birth to an heir and a spare that was undoubtedly the husband's a-ok. Still a gentleman. Young miss whose reputation and marital prospect will ne ruined. Scoundrel.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I love the Kate/Anthony post-disaster-dinner-scene so much. Anytime those two walk into a room alone or find themselves in a room alone, I know it’s going to be good. Ha, he’s trying to use that disastrous dinner as his excuse for calling off the engagement, but she’s not having it. He’s visibly displeased/highly irritated after Kate tells him there will be no plan made to call it off. The whole thing was so sexy, with him making clear that he wants her, and a marriage with her sister will do nothing to stop the feelings he has for her. The marriage will only make him a dishonorable man, as he fears he will not be able resist his pull towards Kate. Whew.

 

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, but I think they were wrong to consider themselves "gentlemen" just as, for instance, slave owners considered themselves "gentlemen." 

I guess it depends on how you see sex work.  Sex work is work. It's a service.  And as long as the women (or men) are treated well or ethically, I think they can still call themselves gentleman.  Sex trafficking is an issue but there are a lot of sex workers who make the choice.  

[Enero]

10 hours ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

I love the Kate/Anthony post-disaster-dinner-scene so much. Anytime those two walk into a room alone or find themselves in a room alone, I know it’s going to be good. Ha, he’s trying to use that disastrous dinner as his excuse for calling off the engagement, but she’s not having it. He’s visibly displeased/highly irritated after Kate tells him there will be no plan made to call it off. The whole thing was so sexy, with him making clear that he wants her, and a marriage with her sister will do nothing to stop the feelings he has for her. The marriage will only make him a dishonorable man, as he fears he will not be able resist his pull towards Kate. Whew.

 

 I completely agree. And their after dinner scene, I have no words whatsoever. So good.

That said, this situation is an utter mess for all involved. And I agree with whomever upthread who said Edwina doesn’t love Anthony just the idea of him. She doesn’t even know him really. Granted that was not uncommon for wives to not really know their husband’s back then. But I think if these two marry, Anthony and Edwina, she will be in for a rude awakening about who he truly is. Not saying he would be a horrible husband but I could definitely see him being a neglectful husband. He has no romantic interest in her whatsoever. And is obviously in love with someone else. He will do his duty in producing an heir or two but outside of that will spend as much time as possible away from Edwina, which of course will make her very unhappy. 

On 3/25/2022 at 6:21 PM, LadyChaos said:

Lady Featherington just does not take responsibility and keeps digging that hole deeper and deeper.

 I know right. The investment in the worthless mines scheme is a good one, but then what happens when those investors don’t see a return on their investment? That will create a another set of problems. 

I wish Penelope would get over Colin already. Her fixation on him really has gotten pathetic, not that it ever wasn’t. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

The point of Anthony saying he's a gentleman is his recognition that lusting after and eventually sleeping with his sister-in-law would dishonor both Kate and Edwina. 

He doesn't want to do that but he doesn't trust either himself or Kate to not give in to their attraction to each other eventually. And he's right that it would be a terrible way to live, even if they were able to keep their hands off each other.

Edited March 27, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[dubbel zout]

On 3/26/2022 at 12:23 PM, shapeshifter said:

I think they were wrong to consider themselves "gentlemen" just as, for instance, slave owners considered themselves "gentlemen." 

It's part of the class divide. I don't think a shopkeeper, for instance, no matter how honest or hardworking, would be considered a gentleman.

13 hours ago, Enero said:

On 3/25/2022 at 6:21 PM, LadyChaos said:

Lady Featherington just does not take responsibility and keeps digging that hole deeper and deeper.

 I know right. The investment in the worthless mines scheme is a good one, but then what happens when those investors don’t see a return on their investment? That will create a another set of problems. 

She's desperate. I don't condone what she's doing, but I understand why she's doing it. She's usually a bit savvier about her schemes, though, and I agree she hasn't thought it through.

[Kirsty]

I am loving this season and that was a good episode. The problem is trying not to watch them all at once!

Eloise and the printer's assistant are cute. I don't know why she's keeping it from Penelope, but I suspect Penelope is about to ruin it for her via Lady Whistledown.

I guess the show is setting Benedict up to be the central character next season. He's cute and funny, but he seems pretty wishy-washy compared with Anthony. Still, I'm prepared to be won over. 😉 Daphne said he avoids conflict so I expect that's what the show will give him. In spades.

I really enjoyed Anthony's jealousy when Kate went walking and boating with Mr. Dorset at the river. What a shitshow! To be standing next to your fiancée but in an agony of jealousy over her sister. Getting pissy about nautical knots before falling into the water is a delicious, low level of non-violent jealousy that I can enjoy.

I liked the way Anthony shut down the Sheffields at dinner. And I loved what he said to Kate in the scene afterwards. First, that was an extremely romantic declaration of passion and Kate must be made of strong stuff not to succumb right there and then, sister or no sister.

Second, he's finally come to his senses! Anthony was seeing clearly in this episode. He admitted that marrying Kate's sister would be a disastrous decision and he spelled out the reasons why. And in that scene and in their final scene together, you could see that he had accepted his feelings for Kate. In the previous episode he was at his wit's end, railing against his feelings and his predicament. In this one he seemed resigned to his feelings for her. It looked like the only reason he agreed to stay engaged to Edwina at the end is because Kate begged him. And he literally couldn't say no to her even if what she's asking will make his life miserable.

So now it's Kate's turn to be an idiot. She's doing a terrible disservice to her sister as well as to herself by not being honest. I would love to get a flashback episode about her family,  but I'm not expecting one with only three episodes left.

Was that an Alanis Morissette cover at the end? It sounded like You Oughta Know.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Kirsty

[peridot]

I'm not enjoying the relationship between Kate and Anthony at all.  No matter what they decide, they would end up hurting Edwina.  Anthony wasn't being discrete either when he was staring at Kate and Dorset in the lake.  I'm surprised that Edwina didn't pick up on that.  Though it seems she caught the fact that Kate was staring at Anthony when he was in his wet shirt.

Eloise seems to take people for granted.  She was constantly dragging Penelope around to discuss her complaints, but can't bother to tell her that she made other plans for the day?  I worry about what Penelope will do to her now.

Does Lady Featherington really think that committing a crime will remedy all the ills in her life?  She's just hastening her family's downfall.

[shapeshifter]

23 minutes ago, peridot said:

Anthony wasn't being discrete either when he was staring at Kate and Dorset in the lake.  I'm surprised that Edwina didn't pick up on that. 

Ironically, Edwina could have assumed Anthony was staring at Kate disapprovingly because Edwina and Anthony have been told by Kate that she has no intention of finding a match for herself, and so Edwina could presume that Anthony was concerned that his friend should not waste time courting Kate. IDK. I have not read the books, but I imagine if I was reading this drama in book format, the author omniscient text would make Edwina’s thoughts clear.

[andromeda331]

Well, that family dinner sure blew up. I wonder if that's what Danbury had in mind. Mary's parents especially her mother are so horrible. No wonder she ran of with a clerk from India. I'm glad we got to see more of Mary this episode and hope there's more of her in the following episodes. She hasn't really done much. I do love Mary correcting her family that she has two daughters. Good for her. I do love that Mary and Kate do really seem to love each other. 

I do love the scenes between Kate and Anthony and feel bad for Edwina. She's really going to be hurt when that finally comes out. 

I can't see any way for Lady Featherington's scheme to end except badly. I do feel bad for her. Her husband blew all their money and her with nothing. Her house and everything goes to the new heir who won't listen to her and turns out to be just as broke. The mess just keeps getting bigger.

I'm glad Eloise is finally doing something. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by andromeda331

[tennisgurl]

Oh boy, bless whoever decided to add in that ridiculously shameless bit of fanservice where Anthony falls into the water. 

Kate: "Don't stare!"

Also Kate: Stares even harder.

At least Anthony has finally got his attraction to Kate out in the open, even if it was after the dinner from hell and has just continued to push them apart. I just want Daphne to lock them both in a broom closet and just let them finally get on with things, they are both so clearly into each other but are both unwilling to give it a try due to their own hang-ups. They're both standing in the way of their own happiness even when its right there, snarking in front of them. Every scene with them I swear, its somehow both insanely hot and insanely frustrating. Its amazing how much sexier Kate and Anthony's intense stares and arguments are then so many of Daphne and Simons sex scenes. 

I really like Eloise's flirtation with the cute printer guy, even if I cant even imagine what Anthony would say if he heard about his sister flirting with a working class boy. I am glad that she's doing something more with her rebellious tendencies than just sighing and obsessing over Lady Whistledown. Speaking of, Penelope wouldn't narc on her own best friend via Whistledown would she? It would seriously damage the reputation of not just Eloise, but the whole family. Is Eloise ready for that kind of push back?

[bijoux]

Can we talk about the fact that Anthony looks at Kate as he's flexing about his nautical skills?

What a piss poor knot. Would you look at this bozo, Kate?

I am. It's you. You're the bozo.

 

 

[kittykat]

On 3/27/2022 at 11:27 AM, Kirsty said:

Was that an Alanis Morissette cover at the end? It sounded like You Oughta Know

Bingo!  I've been loving the covers this season.

Online haters be damned I officially love this season better than the first.  Good character development all around.  I was glad that we finally saw more of Mary standing up to those odious Sheffields (why Giles?) But I do fear poor Edwina is headed for heartbreak.  I get that Anthony was using the dinner to try and end the engagement but it's not surprising Edwina fell even further since he defended them.

 

[Eeksquire]

One thing that I find very interesting about this season is the amount of time that Kate and Anthony are spending alone, with the knowledge of other people, and no one seems to be screaming about him "ruining" her, a la the Featherington entrapment plan. They were alone on the hunt, they were alone while playing Pall Mall, Daphne caught them alone in the library after they both publicly left the dance floor, they were alone in the gardens, they've had private conversations all over the damn place and not a whisper of Kate being ruined! I realize she's a spinster, but still: a RESPECTABLE spinster, still eligible for Regency-era ruining!

I guess we're just to take it on faith that all of the people who could have (or did!) "catch" them have no motivation for scandal, but still. 

I am loving this season, but: truly, there must be some actual action soon or I will scream! (Though... I plan to watch the last three tonight, so hopefully I'll no longer be "vexed"!)

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

One thing that I find very interesting about this season is the amount of time that Kate and Anthony are spending alone, with the knowledge of other people, and no one seems to be screaming about him "ruining" her, a la the Featherington entrapment plan. They were alone on the hunt, they were alone while playing Pall Mall, Daphne caught them alone in the library after they both publicly left the dance floor, they were alone in the gardens, they've had private conversations all over the damn place and not a whisper of Kate being ruined! I realize she's a spinster, but still: a RESPECTABLE spinster, still eligible for Regency-era ruining!

I guess we're just to take it on faith that all of the people who could have (or did!) "catch" them have no motivation for scandal, but still. 

I am loving this season, but: truly, there must be some actual action soon or I will scream! (Though... I plan to watch the last three tonight, so hopefully I'll no longer be "vexed"!)

It really is because those who "caught" Kate and Anthony alone did not press the issue.  Lady Featheringtone's whole plan was to put the new Lord F. and Prudence in a compromising situation and force the issue.  That's why she made sure she had multiple witnesses when she "discovered" them in the orangery.  The Pall Mall scene happened when it was just the Bridgertons, Lady Danbury, and the Sharmas.  It was a more relaxed family gathering where no one cared if both Kate and Anthony were alone in the woods.  They were all playing a game. The men on the hunt are not going to press the issue either.  They do not want something similar to happen to them. If they would have caught Kate and Anthony in an actual compromising position, then they would have reacted differently.  Daphne could have forced the issue in the library, but she chose to allow her brother to do the right thing and propose to Kate.  

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

One thing that I find very interesting about this season is the amount of time that Kate and Anthony are spending alone, with the knowledge of other people, and no one seems to be screaming about him "ruining" her, a la the Featherington entrapment plan. They were alone on the hunt, they were alone while playing Pall Mall, Daphne caught them alone in the library after they both publicly left the dance floor, they were alone in the gardens, they've had private conversations all over the damn place and not a whisper of Kate being ruined! I realize she's a spinster, but still: a RESPECTABLE spinster, still eligible for Regency-era ruining!

I guess we're just to take it on faith that all of the people who could have (or did!) "catch" them have no motivation for scandal, but still. 

I am loving this season, but: truly, there must be some actual action soon or I will scream! (Though... I plan to watch the last three tonight, so hopefully I'll no longer be "vexed"!)

I think because Kate is the de facto matchmaker for her sister, people would tend to assume that is why she is talking to Anthony.
But it does seem Lady W would mention it.

[CountryGirl]

Another good episode. 

Anthony and Kate continue to smolder. Even that first moment where he greets her as if she is a stranger, but their fingers nearly touch, the crackle of electricity in the air. 

Anthony in his copper soaking tub…….

Anthony falling into the pond. Why I do believe he broke Colin’s memory. Firth, of course. Not brother Colin, who is becoming duller by the day. Tsk, tsk to Kate admonishing Edwina not to stare, even as she ripped that revealing, clinging shirt clean off him with her own eyes. Same, girl, same  

Poor Mary. Her parents were awful and I’m glad Anthony told them off and kicked them out. 

One quibble is their conversation in front of Mr. Brooks, the jeweler. No matter how soft their whispers, he had to have caught a whiff of their conversation. And of course, there was the trope of Kate getting the ring stick on her finger, a “sign” that they are meant to be. 
 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

Another good episode. 

Anthony and Kate continue to smolder. Even that first moment where he greets her as if she is a stranger, but their fingers nearly touch, the crackle of electricity in the air. 

Anthony in his copper soaking tub…….

Anthony falling into the pond. Why I do believe he broke Colin’s memory. Kate admonishing Edwina not to stare, even as she ripped that revealing, clinging shirt clean off him with her own eyes. 

Poor Mary. Her parents were awful and I’m glad Anthony told them off and kicked them out. 

One quibble is their conversation in front of Mr. Brooks, the jeweler. No matter how soft their whispers, he had to have caught a whiff of their conversation. And of course, there was the trope of Kate getting the ring stick on her finger, a “sign” that they are meant to be. 
 

That jeweler was too into his cake to overhear anything.   Their conversation was a risk.  The jeweler is also one of those tradesmen who know a lot of shit about the Ton, and chooses to keep it to himself.   He's the one making the jewels for mistresses, he may also discreetly buy pieces from those who need cash, also sell them back just as discreetly.   

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It really is because those who "caught" Kate and Anthony alone did not press the issue.  Lady Featheringtone's whole plan was to put the new Lord F. and Prudence in a compromising situation and force the issue.  That's why she made sure she had multiple witnesses when she "discovered" them in the orangery.  The Pall Mall scene happened when it was just the Bridgertons, Lady Danbury, and the Sharmas.  It was a more relaxed family gathering where no one cared if both Kate and Anthony were alone in the woods.  They were all playing a game. The men on the hunt are not going to press the issue either.  They do not want something similar to happen to them. If they would have caught Kate and Anthony in an actual compromising position, then they would have reacted differently.  Daphne could have forced the issue in the library, but she chose to allow her brother to do the right thing and propose to Kate.  

Also, the Bridgerton boys don't seem all that bright. I'm not sure they'd figure it out unless they saw Anthony and Kate having sex. Maybe not even then. 

[Haleth]

Man, Edwina is sweet but she isn't too bright.  Neon lights start flashing whenever Anthony and Kate are in the same room.

What was it that Anthony said to Kate?  "You are the bane of my existence and the source (?) of all my desires."  Youza.  The man is going to spontaneously combust next time he almost kisses Kate.

I agree that this season is bringing the emotions even more than the first.  There was an article on the Primetimer homepage bemoaning the lack of sexy scenes, saying it made this season a failure.  I couldn't disagree more.  The slow burn and unfulfilled passion is much more interesting to watch than the sex scenes.  (Although any Regé-Jean Page is a good thing. <fans self>)

Eek, Lady Featherington's latest scheme is going to end badly, as is Eloise's interest in the newspaper kid, as is Pen's jealousy about Eloise's new interest.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I was rewatching this episode and realized that this is where the Sheffield dowry subplot starts making things a little incoherent. 

Because in the episode, Violet has a conversation with Anthony about not marrying Edwina because he's so clearly not that into her. And Lady Danbury talks to Kate about not harboring feelings for Anthony. But it doesn't make much sense that both of the older women wouldn't be pushing for the Kate/Anthony match. If Kate marries Anthony, then the financial issues totally disappear and the Sheffields' dowry becomes moot.

And it's obvious to everyone except Edwina apparently that Anthony and Kate are really into each other. Lady Danbury still pushing for Edwina to marry when she knows that will likely be a recipe for disaster doesn't make much sense. (Of course I do get that the Queen is now involved and broken engagements are scandalous things - but so is the Viscount and his sister-in-law engaging in an affair, which was definitely the direction they were headed, no matter how much both protested).

I also don't really even understand why Kate kept that provision from Mary and Edwina, except that it shows that like Anthony, Kate can be a little bit of a control freak. Anyway, that's why they had to shift to Edwina having feelings for Anthony because otherwise this plot point doesn't make much sense after this point, IMO.

[katha]

Yeah, I think they overcomplicated matters and I'm not sure it was necessary. They could have constructed a plot that differed from season one and forced marriage blah blah without stretching quite so much. Everyone has to act a bit nonsensical for it to go on as long as it does. 

[shapeshifter]

47 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

. But it doesn't make much sense that both of the older women wouldn't be pushing for the Kate/Anthony match. If Kate marries Anthony, then the financial issues totally disappear and the Sheffields' dowry becomes moot.

I think the Queen declaring Edwina the "Diamond" meant Edwina would have to be matched with Anthony.

[Nidratime]

I have to keep reminding myself that Lady Mary did not know about the deal that the Sheffields offered to Kate. Otherwise, I don't think Lady Mary would've agreed to return to England. I think Kate feels a responsibility to return Lady Mary and Edwina to the world and life they deserved before Lady Mary ran off with Kate's father. Not that she regrets having Lady Mary and her half-sister in her life, but she feels they don't deserve to live in potential poverty in India due to their connections to Kate and her father, after his death. I think she was trying to "right the ship" so to speak.

As for just deciding to upend the goal and have Kate and Anthony marry instead. Well, the Sharmas' intention from the first was to find Edwina -- who has just come into marriageable age -- a good husband who she loves and can provide for her and, presumably, Lady Mary as well. Apparently, the opportunities to do so via the British social season were better than in India. (How they roped Lady Danbury into it, I don't know. Unless it was totally due to Lady Mary's previous friendship with Danbury.) In any event, Kate at 26, is definitely seen as past the first blush of maidenhood. So, not exactly a great choice for a first coming out, especially as she is not actually Lady Mary's biological daughter and has no actual connection to the ton. Kate has always claimed that what would make her happy is to remain single and return to India. By the time Anthony had made up his mind to find a wife from that season's young ladies, Edwina had her coming out and was declared the diamond, and Anthony made his decision to court her, it was a little late to turn everything on its head and propose to her "spinster" sister who is not British and has no connection to the ton other than via a marriage that was considered a scandal.

 

11 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I think the Queen declaring Edwina the "Diamond" meant Edwina would have to be matched with Anthony.

I don't think they had to be matched. Anthony isn't necessarily the most eligible bachelor of the season ... although he might be. I think it was more that Anthony declared he wanted to court "the diamond".

Edited April 3, 2022 by Nidratime

[shapeshifter]

23 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

...Lady Mary did not know about the deal that the Sheffields offered to Kate. Otherwise, I don't think Lady Mary would've agreed to return to England. I think Kate feels a responsibility to return Lady Mary and Edwina to the world and life they deserved before Lady Mary ran off with Kate's father. Not that she regrets having Lady Mary and her half-sister in her life, but she feels they don't deserve to live in potential poverty in India due to their connections to Kate and her father, after his death....

I kind of glossed over this point👆 of the Sheffields specifically offering the deal to Kate. I don't plan to read the books, but if this story were in a book I was reading, I imagine there would be some author-omniscient paragraphs telling us how Kate was guilt-tripped by the Sheffields into following this plan.
Those crafty Sheffields! This is all their fault!

[Nidratime]

You can tell I just watched this episode.... I think I may need to rewatch the dinner scene because I can't remember what spurred on Lady Mary's mother into her diatribe. She clearly thought that Lady Mary knew about the deal, but did she think everyone at the table did? Or, did she just get heated and had little self-control.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

41 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

I have to keep reminding myself that Lady Mary did not know about the deal that the Sheffields offered to Kate. Otherwise, I don't think Lady Mary would've agreed to return to England. I think Kate feels a responsibility to return Lady Mary and Edwina to the world and life they deserved before Lady Mary ran off with Kate's father. Not that she regrets having Lady Mary and her half-sister in her life, but she feels they don't deserve to live in potential poverty in India due to their connections to Kate and her father, after his death. I think she was trying to "right the ship" so to speak.

As for just deciding to upend the goal and have Kate and Anthony marry instead. Well, the Sharmas' intention from the first was to find Edwina -- who has just come into marriageable age -- a good husband who she loves and can provide for her and, presumably, Lady Mary as well. Apparently, the opportunities to do so via the British social season were better than in India. (How they roped Lady Danbury into it, I don't know. Unless it was totally due to Lady Mary's previous friendship with Danbury.) In any event, Kate at 26, is definitely seen as past the first blush of maidenhood. So, not exactly a great choice for a first coming out, especially as she is not actually Lady Mary's biological daughter and has no actual connection to the ton. Kate has always claimed that what would make her happy is to remain single and return to India. By the time Anthony had made up his mind to find a wife from that season's young ladies, Edwina had her coming out and was declared the diamond, and Anthony made his decision to court her, it was a little late to turn everything on its head and propose to her "spinster" sister who is not British and has no connection to the ton other than via a marriage that was considered a scandal.

I don't think they had to be matched. Anthony isn't necessarily the most eligible bachelor of the season ... although he might be. I think it was more that Anthony declared he wanted to court "the diamond".

Sure, that was the intention but the goal, at least from at least Kate's perspective, was to use the marriage to solve their financial problems. Heck, Anthony even mentions their financial issues when he proposes to Kate for the first time. Anthony doesn't need Edwina's dowry, which Kate even says to him after the dinner with the Sheffields.

A marriage between Kate and Anthony would help to solve the Sharmas financial problems. Yeah, sure, it would have been a  bit of a scandal at first but the Bridgertons are wealthy and not only that, one of them is a Duchess. People would have gotten over the scandal pretty quickly (as they obviously did by the time Kate and Anthony actually did marry).

The main obstacle would have been the Queen - and yes, I don't think Anthony had to marry the Diamond, he just decided to because it made the job of picking who he was going to pursue a lot easier. But the Queen didn't order them to marry. Again, though, she likely would have found some other gossip to distract her eventually. 

Having Edwina say she loves Anthony was motivation for Kate to push him to continue the engagement but of course, doing so created more problems for them. But the narrative needed that because otherwise, it doesn't make sense to rest on the financial reasons.

Edited April 3, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[eleanorofaquitaine]

5 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

You can tell I just watched this episode.... I think I may need to rewatch the dinner scene because I can't remember what spurred on Lady Mary's mother into her diatribe. She clearly thought that Lady Mary knew about the deal, but did she think everyone at the table did? Or, did she just get heated and had little self-control.

I think she just lost control. Quite honestly, she was being unforgivably rude even before she mentioned the dowry. Her anger at her daughter was such that she couldn't control her temper enough to stop talking about stuff that happened 20 years earlier. Lord Sheffield even tried to rein her in initially but she was bound-and-determined to play the victim, despite the discomfort it was causing everyone. 

Edited April 3, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

You can tell I just watched this episode.... I think I may need to rewatch the dinner scene because I can't remember what spurred on Lady Mary's mother into her diatribe. She clearly thought that Lady Mary knew about the deal, but did she think everyone at the table did? Or, did she just get heated and had little self-control.

Mary came to the defense of her daughters, plural, saying how she was glad that her parents cast her out because she could raise her children not to focus merely on titles and money. That's when the shoe about the dowry dropped. But it's true, she was a prickly snide witch the entire time.

[Nidratime]

12 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Having Edwina say she loves Anthony was motivation for Kate to push him to continue the engagement but of course, doing so created more problems for them. But the narrative needed that because otherwise, it doesn't make sense to rest on the financial reasons.

I've only watched up to episode five, so I don't know how they're going to get around all of these "obstacles". But, I agree. They don't *have* to be obstacles in the long run. These characters started on a certain course in the beginning and can't seem to see passed it. And, you're right. What's drawing this out for now is that Edwina thinks she loves Anthony and Kate will never hurt Edwina.

Anthony has never said I love you to Edwina, that I can recall. So, it's possible he could finally just say what his true intentions were from the start ... to find a suitable young woman to marry who he doesn't love so that he never has to feel anything if tragedy strikes. The problem is, he chose a young woman who apparently does feel something, so clearly someone's going to get hurt -- marriage or not. But, she may break it off if he confesses his true feelings or she may stubbornly think that she can make him fall for her eventually.  That's the chance he'll have to take in confessing.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Nidratime

[eleanorofaquitaine]

You'll see more in the next episode, @Nidratime, but I think it is fair to say that Anthony is never really misleading to Edwina about his feelings for Edwina. He's just not particularly forthcoming about his feelings for Kate, and that has consequences. 

[dubbel zout]

4 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I also don't really even understand why Kate kept that provision from Mary and Edwina,

Edwina had to marry a titled man to get the dowry, right? I think Kate genuinely wanted her to marry for love and not feel obligated to marry to the first lord she meets. In some ways, Kate can't win here: She tells Edwina about the dowry and Edwina does feel obligated to marry the first lord she meets (and Kate goes back to India). She doesn't tell Edwina and when it comes out, Edwina is furious. 

[Haleth]

I hate the trope of one person about to tell another a deep, dark secret only to be interrupted, then the second person is angry when the secret comes out. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Edwina had to marry a titled man to get the dowry, right? I think Kate genuinely wanted her to marry for love and not feel obligated to marry to the first lord she meets. In some ways, Kate can't win here: She tells Edwina about the dowry and Edwina does feel obligated to marry the first lord she meets (and Kate goes back to India). She doesn't tell Edwina and when it comes out, Edwina is furious. 

Eh, I think that is why Edwina had a legitimate reason to be angry with Kate. Sure, Edwina might have felt obligated to marry the first lord she met but that should have been her choice. More likely, had Kate told her (and Mary), they could have strategized together.  But in either case, Kate was treating her like a child instead of as an adult and yet, Edwina is the one who would have to live with the adult consequences. I think Edwina was right to call Kate out for that once she found out.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

So, not exactly a great choice for a first coming out, especially as she is not actually Lady Mary's biological daughter and has no actual connection to the ton. Kate has always claimed that what would make her happy is to remain single and return to India. By the time Anthony had made up his mind to find a wife from that season's young ladies, Edwina had her coming out and was declared the diamond, and Anthony made his decision to court her, it was a little late to turn everything on its head and propose to her "spinster" sister who is not British and has no connection to the ton other than via a marriage that was considered a scandal.

They never said anything about Kate's biological mother, but if she wasn't a capital-L Lady, doesn't that make Kate technically ineligible to participate in the marriage market of the 'ton anyway? Edwina is only eligible through her mother, and even then, she's tainted by scandal. Without the Queen declaring Edwina the "diamond", she would probably not have been considered a good match for the men of the Ton unless the Sheffield dowry was truly a marvel. 

(... and I think I just answered my earlier question about this season about why Kate wasn't "ruined" despite her many alone-times with Anthony - if she was not a gentlewoman, she wouldn't have been considered ruin-able anyway*.)

*Note: obviously, all this is Regency era bullshit and does not reflect my own opinions, just trying to figure out the weird structure of this society.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

They never said anything about Kate's biological mother, but if she wasn't a capital-L Lady, doesn't that make Kate technically ineligible to participate in the marriage market of the 'ton anyway? Edwina is only eligible through her mother, and even then, she's tainted by scandal. Without the Queen declaring Edwina the "diamond", she would probably not have been considered a good match for the men of the Ton unless the Sheffield dowry was truly a marvel. 

Edwina's dowry would have been a draw for some men of the Ton.  The younger sons all needed to find rich brides so they could continue to live their indolent lives or to supplement their incomes.  They had little options of employment--the church, the army, law, or medicine. This was a time when gentlemen did not dirty their hands in trade.  Edwina's less than perfect pedigree would not be a deterrent to these men.  

Kate had zero intentions in finding a husband. She was there to help Edwina find a husband.  She could dance and flirt with them gentlemen at parties, balls, the races, etc.  

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Eh, I think that is why Edwina had a legitimate reason to be angry with Kate. Sure, Edwina might have felt obligated to marry the first lord she met but that should have been her choice. More likely, had Kate told her (and Mary), they could have strategized together.  But in either case, Kate was treating her like a child instead of as an adult and yet, Edwina is the one who would have to live with the adult consequences. I think Edwina was right to call Kate out for that once she found out.

I agree. I understand that Kate wanted Edwina to find love and not just pick the first lord she met. But Edwina still deserve to know the truth and it was for her to decide what to do. Mary should have known the truth too.

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

Mary came to the defense of her daughters, plural, saying how she was glad that her parents cast her out because she could raise her children not to focus merely on titles and money. That's when the shoe about the dowry dropped. But it's true, she was a prickly snide witch the entire time.

I love that Mary said that. It's even nicer that she meant it. I really like seeing a stepmother and stepdaughter that love each other so much that they don't see each other as "step" but mother and daughter. 

[Plums]

one thing I'm a but confused on is the timeline of Kate's dowry deal with the Sheffields. When did she initially reach out to them? Was it basically however long it took after their father died for the money to start getting tight? A few months maybe? Because it must have taken years for Edwina to be trained to be the perfect prospective aristocratic bride. I wonder if she wrote when she was in the promoted-to-parent phase of her mother's grief, just like Anthony was during Violet's grief. would explain why she never told them about it- Edwina would have just been a child and Mary would have been too into her mourning for Kate to want to burden her. And then after you keep a secret like that initially, it becomes more and more impossible to disclose it. Especially since the plan was for Edwina to fall in love with a nobleman so that she'd never need to know. 

But then, there was that talk about how they used the last of their money to sail to England and find Edwina a husband as if it was a last, desperate effort and not the culmination of a years long plan. It's just not that clear to me.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. I understand that Kate wanted Edwina to find love and not just pick the first lord she met. But Edwina still deserve to know the truth and it was for her to decide what to do. Mary should have known the truth too.

I think eventually Edwina feels that Kate was projecting onto Edwina her own feelings about "true love" and that's not fair to Edwina. That's, I think, the whole point of the conversation between Kate and Edwina at the art exhibition - Kate's been pushing the narrative of true love onto Edwina but Kate is not allowing herself to be vulnerable to let herself fall in love. 

Kate seemingly wants Edwina to have a fairy tale marriage while she has independence. And maybe that's okay but it's not on Kate to make decisions on Edwina's life, especially without Edwina's input.

[Cetacean]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:27 PM, Kirsty said:

Was that an Alanis Morissette cover at the end? It sounded like You Oughta Know.

Yes.  In closed captioning (I need that for most British shows) it said "classical rendition of You Oughta Know".

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think eventually Edwina feels that Kate was projecting onto Edwina her own feelings about "true love" and that's not fair to Edwina. That's, I think, the whole point of the conversation between Kate and Edwina at the art exhibition - Kate's been pushing the narrative of true love onto Edwina but Kate is not allowing herself to be vulnerable to let herself fall in love. 

Kate seemingly wants Edwina to have a fairy tale marriage while she has independence. And maybe that's okay but it's not on Kate to make decisions on Edwina's life, especially without Edwina's input.

Yes, it's still Edwina's choice to decide what she wants to do with her life.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, it's still Edwina's choice to decide what she wants to do with her life.

Reading this sentence made a little lightbulb go off in my mind regarding Edwina being perhaps the most powerful female in the series with regards to making a decision that will effect the rest of her life. Probably even the Queen never had that option. But as long as Edwina is kept in the dark regarding Anthony's and Kate's mutual feelings, Edwina's power is void.