S02.E02: Penance

[SnarkShark]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:15 AM, millennium said:

loved Jurati's virtual cat

Was that Patton Oswalt?  It really sounded like Patton Oswalt. 

 

Edit - IMDB confirms it was... Patton Oswalt.

Edited March 12, 2022 by SnarkShark

[millennium]

I wouldn't know Patton Oswalt if I tripped over him.   I just liked the cat.   Meow.

[marceline]

Raffi's "Say what now?" when Seven introduced her husband cracked me up. I like that this show gives us tiny bits of humor without going full Joss Whedon. Just like Picard's reaction to the coffee and of course Spot-73. It's a nice break from the dystopia.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, marceline said:

Raffi's "Say what now?" when Seven introduced her husband cracked me up.

Very smooth... Not breaking cover at all.

[marinw]

Now that it’s been established that Annika is the President of Evil Earth, how does the Government of the “real” Earth work? We sometimes hear that there is some sort of “United Earth Government” but I don’t recall if we know how such a government is appointed or elected. Is Earth a democracy, or some other form of benign, mostly good form of governing we haven’t come up with yet?

There must also be still be some form of money on Earth, if it’s not needed for the essentials than it would be used for luxurious or rare items. I doubt Jean-Luc is giving away all the Chateau Picard.

Edited March 13, 2022 by marinw

[Llywela]

32 minutes ago, marinw said:

Now that it’s been established that Annika is the President of Evil Earth, how does the Government of the “real” Earth work? We sometimes hear that there is some sort of “United Earth Government” but I don’t recall if we know how such a government is appointed or elected. Is Earth a democracy, or some other form of benign, mostly good form of governing we haven’t come up with yet?

There must also be still be some form of money on Earth, if it’s not needed for the essentials than it would be used for luxurious or rare items. I doubt Jean-Luc is giving away all the Chateau Picard.

LOL don't mention the idea of money being used on Earth around any die-hard Trekkies, they get a bit hot under the collar at the very suggestion. 😄 Past Treks have been a bit inconsistent around the concept. Certainly Earth and the Federation consider themselves 'post-scarcity', because replicators mean that no one ever has to go without. But the concept of currency definitely still exists, even within the Federation, and some people clearly have more than others. Rios didn't purchase La Sirena with nothing - and he charged Picard for his services in S1. Even in TNG there were references to some form of a currency system before the whole 'we don't need money any more, we're long past such things' thing ever came up - which as a concept doesn't really hold much water anyway, and raises all kinds of logistical problems when you start to examine it more closely.

As far as Earth government goes, I believe we are supposed to presume it to be democratic and enlightened, because humans had supposedly progressed past such petty things as power grabs and war by TNG days, but as far as I recall they've never gone into any details, which is probably for the best, really. Some things are best left vague!

Edited March 13, 2022 by Llywela

[marinw]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

because humans had supposedly progressed past such petty things as power grabs and war by TNG days, but as far as I recall they've never gone into any details, which is probably for the best, really. Some things are best left vague!

Rodenberry said there would be "no conflict" even amongst crew members.🙄  Although folks in the 23rd/24th/early 25th Centuries seem to be (on average) better behaved than we are, we are never going to move past petty conflicts, power grabs, etc. We can strive to be better, but some parts of Human Nature are too engrained to change complerly. If people don'y need tp compete of resources, we will find something else to compete over, like powerful ranks or jobs, or access or things that are finate, like beachside property on a nice planet.

Competetion to get into Starfleet Acedemy is a plot point in several Trek Episodes,such as TNG's "Coming of Age" we are always told there is a finite number of spaces at Starfleet's various campuses. This may be an artifical form of scracity to keep Starfleet aspirational and prestigous.

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

As far as Earth government goes, I believe we are supposed to presume it to be democratic and enlightened

Agreed, we have a hard time imagning an effective, fair form of government other than a democracy. Some Science Fiction writers do present us with other, new forms of government. (Example: Ada Palmers's excellet Terra Ignota series)

Edited March 13, 2022 by marinw

[dwmarch]

I enjoyed this episode enough to watch it twice which is rare for Star Trek and unprecedented for Picard. Two episodes in and we are off to a solid start here! I could not tell you a single thing about episode two of season one (was that the one where Admiral Evil flipped Picard off?) but this one is a favorite.

Not sure if this was mentioned upthread but the Cardassian skull on display should have been Gul Madred rather than Gul Dukat. Madred was the one who kidnapped and tortured Picard in the "Chain of Command" two-parter. But Dukat is still a solid choice too. For reasons of what I am assuming are villainy, Dukat was shot through the "spoon" with a projectile weapon.

Loved Jurati in this episode. I had to rewind her line about "that torture device really looks like it's gonna hurt" and I got a kick out of her offhandedly quipping at the Borg Queen "tell me about, sister" in response to some temporal technobabble. I also loved how she deflected the Magistrate's suspicions by carpet-bombing him with awkwardness.

I also liked how quickly the crew realized what was up and did their best to adapt. Rios reverse-engineering his purpose was a little lumpy but I loved when Picard walked over to that security officer and just glared at her until she shriveled up. See what happens when you give him coffee instead of tea, Earl Grey, hot?

Seems we have also picked up the pace too. Elnor's girlfriend gets a couple of lines of dialog before getting yeeted out of the story by a stray phaser blast. Last season she would have been in three episodes before getting tortured and killed.

Hearing Patton Oswalt pop up was like a similar moment a franchise over (mild casting spoiler for The Book of Boba Fett):

Spoiler

Danny Trejo appearing as a Rancor wrangler.

No idea I needed that until I saw it and then I was like, yeah!

Annie Wersching's Borg Queen was good. I thought she brought some impressive silent menace when she was beamed up to La Sirena and Jurati plugged her in. I bet the Magistrate is in for a nasty surprise first thing next episode.

Regarding Earth government, Star Trek tends to squish various levels of bureaucracy together with the Federation, Starfleet and presumable but unnamed civil authorities being interchangeable (and Starfleet having inherited their jurisdictional rules from the Hawaii 5-0 task force). But Earth must have a civil government, we just haven't really seen it. I'll have to go back and watch Enterprise's excellent two-parter "Demons/Terra Prime". That was set right before the founding of the Federation and we saw some civil authorities there which should still exist.

[Affogato]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:26 PM, paigow said:

Agnes still sounds like a Whedonite...

Seriously, though, she is really fleshing herself out as a character, one nervous outburst at a time. 

[Ottis]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:06 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

but I don't know if I can take an entire season of Picard: Back to the Future (or is it Star Trek: Flashpoint?).

I'm with you there. This was Q + Mirror Universe + Time Travel. And I'm especially annoyed that the "key change" was done in 2024 - pretty much our time IRL. So now we will end up with our characters wandering around our actual time, saving budget, which is not why I watch Star Trek. 

I thought the Borg Queen was excellent at facial expressions of superiority over the humans, without actually saying anything. I think she has some ability to see what is about to happen so she doesn't need to react to much.

Q seems a bit stressed. Not sure how much of this is a Q test and how much of this is Q in trouble somehow.

Agnes acting like a nut with the First Husband was a reach. Not a lot there to indicate she was a nut in the Mirror time.

On 3/12/2022 at 12:33 PM, paigow said:

I would be all over someone executing that.

 

 

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Q seems a bit stressed. Not sure how much of this is a Q test and how much of this is Q in trouble somehow.

To me, I keep flashing back to his dialogue and his "it's a penance" line. A penance, to be sure, and he implies it is for Picard (or Picard seems at least to infer that). I can't help but wonder if it is a penance for Q somehow.

[starri]

18 hours ago, marinw said:

Now that it’s been established that Annika is the President of Evil Earth, how does the Government of the “real” Earth work? We sometimes hear that there is some sort of “United Earth Government” but I don’t recall if we know how such a government is appointed or elected. Is Earth a democracy, or some other form of benign, mostly good form of governing we haven’t come up with yet?

In alpha canon, they've at least hinted that United Earth is a parliamentary democracy, Nathan Samuels was described as a Minister of some kind indicating a Westminster-type system.  The beta canon (which I guess I always decide is "correct" until it's directly contradicted) expands it even more, stating there's a President who is the head of state, and a Prime Minister, who is the head of government.  The Earth capitol is London.

[salaydouk]

23 hours ago, Llywela said:

LOL don't mention the idea of money being used on Earth around any die-hard Trekkies, they get a bit hot under the collar at the very suggestion. 😄

LOL To which I would say don't mention the name Trekkies to die-hard Trekkers, they get a bit hot under the collar at the very suggestion of Trekkie! 😝

 

23 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Not sure if this was mentioned upthread but the Cardassian skull on display should have been Gul Madred rather than Gul Dukat. Madred was the one who kidnapped and tortured Picard in the "Chain of Command" two-parter. But Dukat is still a solid choice too. For reasons of what I am assuming are villainy, Dukat was shot through the "spoon" with a projectile weapon.

I thought the same thing. It just seemed like they just want to name drop DSP characters into this particular show, am not sure if writers are trying forshadow something, or it could just be most casual fans know Dukat and not Madred. But also re-using all of these characters in these contexts is still strange, because the timeline is different who is to say which characters, aside from Picard of course, would have the same positions/power in the normal timeline and would even be familiar with each other.  I mean I doubt Picard from the altered timeline could ever have been captured and tortured and then escaped/survived.  Because if he was captured, and based on his position in Earth society, the first thing any rebel would have done is kill him no questions asked. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by salaydouk

[Llywela]

37 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

LOL To which I would say don't mention the name Trekkies to die-hard Trekkers, they get a bit hot under the collar at the very suggestion of Trekkie! 😝

😁 I don't mind pissing them off. (I knew it was not the preferred name these days, but I said it anyway, because that's what everyone always said when I was growing up, and honestly, what's the difference? They mean exactly the same thing and neither one sounds any better than the other)

Quote

I thought the same thing. It just seemed like they just want to name drop DSP characters into this particular show, am not sure if writers are trying forshadow something, or it could just be most casual fans know Dukat and not Madred. But also re-using all of these characters in these contexts is still strange, because the timeline is different who is to say which characters, aside from Picard of course, would have the same positions/power in the normal timeline and would even be familiar with each other.  I mean I doubt Picard from the altered timeline could ever have been captured and tortured and then escaped/survived.  Because if he was captured, and based on his position in Earth society, the first thing any rebel would have done is kill him no questions asked. 

Oh yeah, it was absolutely about name-recognition rather than who might logically have come up against General Picard in this reality. We just have to rationalise that Picard came across all those characters in different circumstances than we encountered them in previous Treks!

[paigow]

51 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

But also re-using all of these characters in these contexts is still strange, because the timeline is different

Seems like the chain of command is intact... Sisko and other characters are still subordinate Senior Officers as in TNG!Prime timeline. 

[Llywela]

10 minutes ago, paigow said:

Seems like the chain of command is intact... Sisko and other characters are still subordinate Senior Officers as in TNG!Prime timeline. 

Subordinate? Sisko was referred to as a general - that's equal rank to Picard. When Seven asked for an update on the Vulcan war, the Magistrate automatically says he'll get General Sisko to brief her, implying that Sisko is the highest ranking officer overseeing the conflict. It comes as a surprise to him that Seven instead asks for a report from a lower ranking officer (Rios).

[salaydouk]

41 minutes ago, Llywela said:

😁 I don't mind pissing them off. (I knew it was not the preferred name these days, but I said it anyway, because that's what everyone always said when I was growing up, and honestly, what's the difference? They mean exactly the same thing and neither one sounds any better than the other)

Oh yeah, it was absolutely about name-recognition rather than who might logically have come up against General Picard in this reality. We just have to rationalise that Picard came across all those characters in different circumstances than we encountered them in previous Treks!

Oh I know... I am in the same camp as you and use them interchangably as well.  It was just that you "lobbed a softball" with your comment, I just couldn't help myself from swinging at it.  😆

Rationalize he encountered them all in different circumstances.... I smell books.... lots and lots of Evil Picard books. 😆

24 minutes ago, paigow said:

Seems like the chain of command is intact... Sisko and other characters are still subordinate Senior Officers as in TNG!Prime timeline. 

See Sisko's name being dropped could also still be about name recognition... Sisko only existed because a Prophet("Sarah") inhabited a human woman to engineer his birth/creation.  So in this timeline did the Prophets still send the "Sarah" Prophet to Earth? Seems unlikely the prophets would have chosen their emissary to come from a race so violently xenophobic.  Lastly, would it even be the same Sisko or one that was born to Joseph Sisko and what was in the prime timeline his second wife? 

So like was said earlier we just have to find a way to rationalize how people would follow the same career paths while being sociopaths and wind up in either the same positions or encountering the same people no matter what...  At a high level I completely agree because the show has thus far been fun, but I smell the writers have left room for non-canon books to be written.

Edited March 14, 2022 by salaydouk

[Pallas]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:33 AM, starri said:

Even in the unlikely event that Spock could exist in this world (wouldn't it more likely have been Sybok?), either would have been well over 150 by the time Picard could have crossed paths with them.

Fascism moves fast, and the Earth we saw here may be a recent devolvement. Amanda might have been an Ambassador from a prior, more benign Earth government, given haven on Vulcan when the Thousand Light-Year Reich comes to power. Or Amanda the teacher could have became Amanda the dissident refugee, who Sarek -- characteristically willful, in his worldly way -- chose to marry. His widow may or may not have been Perrin.

[jah1986]

20 hours ago, salaydouk said:

See Sisko's name being dropped could also still be about name recognition... Sisko only existed because a Prophet("Sarah") inhabited a human woman to engineer his birth/creation.  So in this timeline did the Prophets still send the "Sarah" Prophet to Earth? Seems unlikely the prophets would have chosen their emissary to come from a race so violently xenophobic.  Lastly, would it even be the same Sisko or one that was born to Joseph Sisko and what was in the prime timeline his second wife? 

And would this be Benjamin Sisko, because he died at the end of DS9?  Could it be Jake, or Sisko’s son with Cassidy Yates? 
 

I enjoyed this ep but there are a lot of questions in my mind.

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, jah1986 said:

And would this be Benjamin Sisko, because he died at the end of DS9?  Could it be Jake, or Sisko’s son with Cassidy Yates? 

In such a radically different timeline, there's no knowing how Benjamin Sisko's life may have panned out. Certainly the events of DS9 wouldn't have taken place as we saw on screen. Because the rank given was general, same as Picard, I think we are meant to presume Ben Sisko rather than one of his children, who would be young for such a rank - or it could be some other Sisko entirely! Dropping the name was just an Easter egg for fans to pick up and wonder over and run with. How this Sisko's life played out is left for fanfic and novels to explore!

[DisneyBoy]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:59 AM, marceline said:

I like that this show gives us tiny bits of humor without going full Joss Whedon.

See, it's still coming off wannabe Whedon to me. And it's damn annoying. I *hate* the Doctor. I hate her "aren't I relatable?" rambling. I hate her white voluminous coats. I hate it all. Please go away.

Did Elnor seriously slit two throats using the Starfleet communicator badge..?!?!!

WOW.

I wasn't inclined to say the new team has no respect for Star Trek, but...yeah. That's lazy. And so, SO disrespectful.

New Borg Queen looked ridiculous too, dangling and rambling. What a lackluster reintroduction. And since when does a Borg Queen "communicate with herself in alternate realities"...? Since the writers needed her to...? Riiiight. Mmmhmm.

I keep lowering my expectations and yet...apparently not enough.

[Hiyo]

I liked it. This is shaping up to be a good season so far.

[Chaos Theory]

I really like these alternate history stories.  And the idea of Picard becoming some power hungry mad ruthless soldier fits in with the darker parts of his personality so I buy it completly.  As for Seven  we don't know as much about Annika Hanson so we don't really know what kind of person she might have become in a dark despot world.    Honestly I would have watched an entire season of the team wondering through this universe. 

[chaifan]

On 3/18/2022 at 11:25 PM, Chaos Theory said:

As for Seven  we don't know as much about Annika Hanson so we don't really know what kind of person she might have become in a dark despot world. 

All the other characters, except for Elnor, ended up in pretty much their equivalent spaces in the new timeline.  Granted, we don't know what Annika Hanson would have grown up to be if she hadn't been assimilated by the Borg, but I felt making her President was a huge stretch and there only to serve the plot.  We've never seen Seven have any inkling of an interest in politics or power.  In fact, quite the opposite.  But, we have seen Seven (post Voyager) have an interest in getting in fights for the hell of it and being a total fighting badass.  So I think it would have made more sense to make her head of private security or personal bodyguard to the President.  If they needed to elevate her role in the new gov't she could also have been the First Lady (with a female President, naturally).  In that type of dual role, she would have had all the access she needed to do what was done in this episode, and it wouldn't have been so much of a stretch for the character.

My general feeling about time travel and/or mirror universe episode plots is that they're there for when the writers can't come up with anything new/better or have written themselves into a corner.  Or when they want to give the actors a chance to do something different, show a different side to their acting abilities.  I don't like them being used as a reset button so the writers can simply ignore series history/canon.  It's why I stopped watching Discovery - I thought Discovery made a really good sci fi show, but I hated it as a Star Trek show, because it was just too too too different.  So I'm a bit hesitant about this season.  But, I loved this episode, so that's a good sign. 

 

 

[Sandman]

On 3/11/2022 at 1:06 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

I think I am in a different boat than most so far. I really like John De Lancie and Q, and enjoyed the heck out of S1, but I don't know if I can take an entire season of Picard: Back to the Future (or is it Star Trek: Flashpoint?)

“Encounter at Endpoint”?

I enjoyed the heck out of the first season, too, and liked seeing the band back together (and loved Elnor’s chipper observation “I’m a rebel!” this episode) — but I think I’m over Q. His smarmy arrogance and self-righteous manipulations were never cute to me, and watching DeLancie eat all that scenery just makes me so tired. This is only the second episode and it already feels like it’s going to be a long season. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Sandman

[marinw]

The time travel thing has been so DONE. I liked last season because it was trying to do something new and different. To me, one of the most interesting things about Trek is exploring how society and politics evolve (or don't) along with the technology. I want the crew to finish up in 2024 and go...back to the future.

[paramitch]

I really liked this, and am liking the season in general. I was hesitant on the show -- I've heard so much negativity out there, but have enjoyed it, despite some eyerolls here and there.

It's a thoughtful series overall, often beautifully written, and I love seeing PS's Picard again.

Also, speaking as a shallow, shallow, person, I always loved Q, and holy crap, am I here for Silver Fox Q. Good lord. He's even hotter than he was before.

That is all. 

On 3/10/2022 at 4:26 PM, paigow said:

Agnes still sounds like a Whedonite...

I really disagree. People have been writing witty, insecure dialogue for introverts for millennia. It's not like JW was the only one who could do it (Ben Hecht, Rob Thomas, Michael Schur, Amy Sherman-Palladino, and many more would like a word...)

On 3/10/2022 at 10:28 PM, thuganomics85 said:

We've got another Borg Queen in the form of Anne Wersching, I see!  Susanna Thompson and especially Alice Krige will be hard acts to follow, but I do love me some Wersching, so I'm looking forward to seeing more of her take going forward.

I adore Annie Wersching, especially her beautiful and understated work on "24" and "The Last of Us," so I was so very sorry at her passing this past year. It's bittersweet to watch this show now, and her wonderful performance as the Borg Queen, and know she's gone so soon. But what a legacy to leave behind -- she's just as much fun for me in this role as Alice and Susannah were in their own depictions of fabulous scary Borg Queens!

On 3/11/2022 at 3:41 AM, Haleth said:

Loved all the nods to previous series.  Love Annie Wersching so she works for me as the Borg queen.  Love that the gang is back together again for more hijinks.  Maybe "our" Soji isn't there yet because she wasn't present at the rift?  I'm guessing she'll show up at some point as her alt self.  

See above -- adored Annie. I'm okay with them not including Soji as much -- the show had this tendency to go all "Main Character" with her last season, so I am very happy to explore the others here so far.

On 3/11/2022 at 6:42 AM, Llywela said:

One of the issues season one had was that the intense focus on Picard meant there was little screentime left to develop the rest of the cast, and because it took quite literally the entire season to get the entire cast all together in one place, they weren't really able to gel properly as a group. We got tantalising little flashes of potential that for the most part went begging. So, conversely, one of the strengths this season has is that the cast feels much more integrated. Everyone was introduced last year, the relationships were established, even if it did take a long time to get there, so this season is able to build on those foundations - and is doing a great job. The timeskip also helped with that. Only two episodes in and we're already getting a stronger feel for the various different dynamics among the characters than we did in the whole of last season. Raffi's maternal bond with Elnor. The friendship between Seven and Rios. The stalled romances of Seven/Raffi and Rios/Agnes (both of which were thrashed out in a bit more detail here). And Picard himself as the glue between them all, the reason most of them even met in the first place. It's all good stuff.

Wonderful recap of where we are, as always (I have so enjoyed all of your posts on the show so much!), and I agree -- this season really seems to be setting us up for a rich exploration of Picard's crewmates, and I'm here for it. I'm especially looking forward to having Allison Pill back -- I was blown away by her performance on "In Treatment," and think she's just a fantastic actress, and so much more than "I will now be goofy/vulnerable for half an hour" (although she can do that just fine -- see also "The Newsroom," about which I have very very mixed feelings, unsurprisingly).

On 3/12/2022 at 2:44 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

The way Seven confirmed to herself that she wasn't dreaming seemed almost instructive to me.

I loved that, and thought it was really good, nuanced, smart writing. It's also so good to have Jeri Ryan back as Seven. She's a wonderful actress, and so underrated.