S01.E09: Racing Clouds

[NeenerNeener]

A misunderstanding leads to a battle with serious consequences.

So, we finally get to the circumstances that led to the opening scene in the pilot.

[toodywoody]

Well that explains a few things.

I feel so bad for them. I felt bad for new dude and the talk Shea had with him was great. The settlers and Josef and his wife. It is really heartbreaking to think all the settlers went through and the ones that did make it changed their souls completely.

I loved the episode.

[NeenerNeener]

I'm starting to like the new cowhand. 

Is Elsa narrating this from beyond the grave? Did they make it as far as Montana before she died and that's why Yellowstone Ranch is there? Is the other little boy their replacement baby?

[Affogato]

So, yellowstone is yellowhair’s headstone. More permanent than a transient’s wooden cross. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Affogato
Typo

[Affogato]

I was surprised to see the snake out there in the open and coiled. I’d think it would feel them coming. They don’t hang in the open. 
also surprised Elsa had time to learn a bunch o’ Commanche. Her name, okay. But the rest?

maybe there is some moldy bread forElsa. I doubt it. The miracle survival is possibly Josef’s wife. If anyone. 

[oompa]

So, the Duttons had time to have a conversation, change clothes, play with the kid in the grass, and have some more conversation. When they finally decide to get going, the wagon train that's booking it to the fort is only about a couple hundred yards away. No wonder it is taking them so long to get to Oregon. Geesh.

[Sunnykm]

lol this is Yellowstone back story!  Elsa will live and we won't ever mention the arrow again.  She will live on to sleep with a guy in Montana but not before a guy in Wyoming and one in Colorado.

[jamswish]

21 hours ago, Affogato said:

I was surprised to see the snake out there in the open and coiled. I’d think it would feel them coming. They don’t hang in the open. 
also surprised Elsa had time to learn a bunch o’ Commanche. Her name, okay. But the rest?

maybe there is some moldy bread forElsa. I doubt it. The miracle survival is possibly Josef’s wife. If anyone. 

Supposedly, several weeks past that we didn’t see. That’s how they got from tornado in Oklahoma territory to the mountains in view by the end of episode 8. Sam rode with them as he told Elsa he would show her the mountains. She’s a fast learner. 

[Moviesnob]

I'll be damned that I went from being near ready to write off Elsa and her silly storylines to be completely fucking invested. I got much more torn up at Elsa's impending death than I thought I would be, and I really love having her narrate what (I assume) will be the last year of her life. I'm not normally one for such depressing stuff, but this was a hard, depressing time, and having it all fall apart and end with the family settling down where she dies - it's really working for me. 

Damn you, Taylor Sheridan. I'm not supposed to like you, with how you write these male-fantasy storylines and in the majority of scenes you write for women, they are either naked or crying or both, but I just can't fucking quit you.

[Artsda]

I guess Elsa needed to quickie new relationship and marriage to save them all. So Elsa will die, how long will they drag out her death since she's main character and more season coming. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Artsda

[cdnalor]

"...and a good time was had by all."

This was kind of a downer especially since it seemed to me like the finale, but I see on IMDB there's one more show to go.  Maybe Elsa will gain another superpower and fight off the infection.  No wonder antibiotics were called "wonder drugs", almost any wound could prove fatal after the fact because of infection.

Any immigrants who make it to Oregon will certainly have earned it.  I don't know how many are left but it doesn't look good and they still have hard times ahead.

Weird how they keep running across Natives who speaking amazingly good English where almost no White people are found.  Are the showrunners afraid of offending people by having Natives speak broken English?

[The Pretender]

That was an emotional roller coaster for me. I went from 'oh so we're doing this (getting to see what started the show) now and not during the last episode of the season, & so Elsa dies now!?' to 'holly molly she survived with that arrow through the gut' to 'damn you James Dutton for saying she's going to die, Margaret hit him harder' 😢 

I'm usually  not one for miracle savings on TV but darn am I hoping some Navajo concoction can save her. I want her around at least for another season. I do wonder if her brand is the origin of the Yellowstone brand and placed over the heart because it's in her memory... 

I honestly lost track of how Josef & Risa was doing but I'm just hoping for a miracle for them as well. Dang my principles. 

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, jamswish said:

Supposedly, several weeks past that we didn’t see. That’s how they got from tornado in Oklahoma territory to the mountains in view by the end of episode 8. Sam rode with them as he told Elsa he would show her the mountains. She’s a fast learner. 

She sure is a fast learner. 

[blackwing]

Am I the only one that wants Elsa to die?  I have grown increasingly tired of her the past two episodes.  For me, she has become the Jimmy of "1883".  I find her tiresome.  I believe she mentioned it was October.  October in Colorado/Wyoming is not warm... the guys were all in coats.  Yet here she is in a sleeveless Comanche vest that she proudly shows off without a coat to show everyone she is Comanche.  Margaret tells her to put on a dress and she's all "oh no y'all, ahm Native now, it restricts my boobies and ah can't breathe".  Pfffttttt.

I actually don't expect her to die at all.  I think she will make it to the fort and she will recover.  It'd be very strange if Sheridan kills her since she is the main POV character.  I expect her to survive and be even more annoying in the next season.  Now I understand how everyone who dislikes Beth feels every time she appears on "Yellowstone".

I expect that they will get to Montana, she won't die but she will be weak and need rest and can't travel anymore, so they will put down roots there.  Shea and Thomas may or may not take the surviving Germans/Slavs to Oregon or maybe they just settle there too and claim the land.

Thomas' girlfriend, the gypsy woman (I forget her name) did survive.  But what about Josef and his wife?  Did they survive the Lakota attack?  We didn't see them in the aftermath. 

[Affogato]

23 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 

Thomas' girlfriend, the gypsy woman (I forget her name) did survive.  But what about Josef and his wife?  Did they survive the Lakota attack?  We didn't see them in the aftermath. 

Frim what they showed Joseph should be fine. The wife probably not although maybe. The horse would have got the brunt of the venom. If I remember correctly. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Affogato

[mojoween]

New cowhand who is not Wade said when he was burying the lady that her husband was killed, but I am certain her husband drowned when they were crossing the river, and new cowhand wasn’t with them yet.

I liked that industrious sewing lady.  Sad to see her go like that.

The cook’s grave cross had cooking implements tied to it and that was almost the saddest of all.

[Suzee2]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

Am I the only one that wants Elsa to die?  I have grown increasingly tired of her the past two episodes.  For me, she has become the Jimmy of "1883".  I find her tiresome. 

No, you're not, I'm so ready to get rid of her by whatever means possible. If death is the most expedient way, bring it on.

Quote

I believe she mentioned it was October.  October in Colorado/Wyoming is not warm... the guys were all in coats.  Yet here she is in a sleeveless Comanche vest that she proudly shows off without a coat to show everyone she is Comanche.  Margaret tells her to put on a dress and she's all "oh no y'all, ahm Native now, it restricts my boobies and ah can't breathe".  Pfffttttt.

If death brings an end to her wearing the skimpy Commanche vest with nothing on underneath while everyone else with the wagon train is bundled in multiple layers, it can't happen soon enough. Although perhaps Sheridan derived a little schadenfreude from her complaining about her arm-pit restricting, boob-smashing dress, then soon after being shot through with an arrow. I certainly did.

[sashabear21]

Start of next episode voiceover, "Somehow by the hand of God I had survived, if I hadn't been wearing that horrible dress and had been in my native clothing then I surely could have stopped the attack sooner as my character does many improbable things. From this day forward, I vow to never wear another dress again. I will burn every dress I see and turn them to ashes in this godforsaken place!" 

I hope Elsa doesn't die, mainly because she would be the one character that anyone on the show spends more than an hour mourning and it would go on way too long. Plus it still wouldn't make a lot of sense for the story of the Dutton family to be told by some random ass great great great great aunt.  Also you know what's a terrible plan? Leaving to kill horse thieves so the local tribe doesn't mistakenly think you're the horse thieves and kill your whole travel party, except that's exactly what ended up happening. Also, was the head horse thief with the speaking role one of Sheridan's cousins or something? Because the acting was not good, it was making me cringe a little to be honest. 

 

 

[LadyIrony]

8 hours ago, blackwing said:

Am I the only one that wants Elsa to die?  I have grown increasingly tired of her the past two episodes.  For me, she has become the Jimmy of "1883".  I find her tiresome.  I believe she mentioned it was October.  October in Colorado/Wyoming is not warm... the guys were all in coats.  Yet here she is in a sleeveless Comanche vest that she proudly shows off without a coat to show everyone she is Comanche.  Margaret tells her to put on a dress and she's all "oh no y'all, ahm Native now, it restricts my boobies and ah can't breathe".  Pfffttttt.

I actually don't expect her to die at all.  I think she will make it to the fort and she will recover.  It'd be very strange if Sheridan kills her since she is the main POV character.  I expect her to survive and be even more annoying in the next season.  Now I understand how everyone who dislikes Beth feels every time she appears on "Yellowstone".

I expect that they will get to Montana, she won't die but she will be weak and need rest and can't travel anymore, so they will put down roots there.  Shea and Thomas may or may not take the surviving Germans/Slavs to Oregon or maybe they just settle there too and claim the land.

Thomas' girlfriend, the gypsy woman (I forget her name) did survive.  But what about Josef and his wife?  Did they survive the Lakota attack?  We didn't see them in the aftermath. 

Nope not just you. I cannot stand her, she makes what is otherwise a reasonably serious and realistic show into an absolute joke. In fact the only thing that would make me watch Season 2 would be knowing she won't be in it!

When she rode out in that Native sleeveless number I swear I got flashbacks of Deanery's from GOT. Is she meant to be some kind of saviour now? Does Taylor Sheridan realize that Deanery's was a terrible leader?!

I think it could go either way. He was either building her up so we would really miss her (ha, ha) if she died or she was just supposed to be so important to everyone that she would live a mark on them for all eternity. 

I will ride out this season but I am not sure about season 2. 

[mythoughtis]

So it appeared to me that they only have 3-4 wagons left after this?   How many immigrants are there left?  There were 3 graves from the site where the cook was killled, and several more deceased bodies at the site where new cowhand killed the scalped female.    If they keep this up, it will just be Shea, Thomas, Wade and the Duttons. 

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

How many immigrants are there left?

It looked like Noemi and her kids were fine. I think the ones who circled the wagons survived because they were able to fend off the attack. Since they lost most of the wagons, but not any people in the tornado, you have to assume that multiple families were with each wagon. Maybe five or six families are left?

This episode was just weird in terms of its geography. By 1883, there wouldn't have been any random camps of Dakota families in Wyoming - especially not as far west as Casper, which they claimed was six hours away. It's also not likely that the warriors would have spoken Comanche since the two didn't have any overlapping territory. Maybe he spoke Shoshone, which is essentially the same as Comanche, but it's a stretch. Dakota is not a Numic language, so it's not like they are even in the same language family. I know it's picky, but I liked how well done some of the historical aspects were even if it didn't make sense for the time period, so it annoys me when it's off in terms of believability and basic historical accuracy.

[CountryGirl]

I absolutely loved this episode, even as it broke my heart. I am one of the few that hope Elsa won't die, but I don't know how she survives this.

[mythoughtis]

I watched the episode last night.  Then I read a couple recaps online.  Both recaps describe an ending scene in the episode that was not on the episode I watched.  The last scene I watched was Margaret telling James  she needed a minute and him walking back towards the fire - set just a couple minutes after their discussion of staying where they will bury Elsa. The recaps describe a scene the next morning narrated by Elsa.  Did any of you see this scene? 
 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, mythoughtis said:

I watched the episode last night.  Then I read a couple recaps online.  Both recaps describe an ending scene in the episode that was not on the episode I watched.  The last scene I watched was Margaret telling James  she needed a minute and him walking back towards the fire - set just a couple minutes after their discussion of staying where they will bury Elsa. The recaps describe a scene the next morning narrated by Elsa.  Did any of you see this scene? 
 

Yes

[Moviesnob]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I watched the episode last night.  Then I read a couple recaps online.  Both recaps describe an ending scene in the episode that was not on the episode I watched.  The last scene I watched was Margaret telling James  she needed a minute and him walking back towards the fire - set just a couple minutes after their discussion of staying where they will bury Elsa. The recaps describe a scene the next morning narrated by Elsa.  Did any of you see this scene? 
 

Amazon Prime tried to shuffle me to something else before this last scene - I had to click it away and let it finish the episode. That may have happened to you.

[Guy Incognito]

So as each episode passes and they lose more and more immigrants, I keep wondering how many of the Cattle are still alive.  They dont appear to have killed many for food, but they keep losing people they were going to have to feed. 

Im actually starting to think the entire Dutton fortune was built on the fact that John and his family end up with a bunch of leftover cattle that the Wagon Train never had to eat simply because they will be one of the few survivors of the journey.

[CountryGirl]

1 minute ago, Moviesnob said:

Amazon Prime tried to shuffle me to something else before this last scene - I had to click it away and let it finish the episode. That may have happened to you.

That was so annoying! But yep, I saw it. It may very well be that Elsa dies just as they reach Montana and perhaps she's the reason why they opted for Montana vs Oregon.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

I watched the episode last night.  Then I read a couple recaps online.  Both recaps describe an ending scene in the episode that was not on the episode I watched.  The last scene I watched was Margaret telling James  she needed a minute and him walking back towards the fire - set just a couple minutes after their discussion of staying where they will bury Elsa. The recaps describe a scene the next morning narrated by Elsa.  Did any of you see this scene? 
 

Yes.  Elsa was narrating something about how she knew from the way that her parents were talking and looking at her that she was going to die.

Elsa dying will also explain why she didn't appear in the scene set in 1893 on "Yellowstone" last season.  I am fully expecting that she won't die though.  She will survive and torment me in Season 2.  I'm really so tired of the "Elsa, Elsa: a young woman's strange and unbelievable journey from Texas to Montana by way of Comanche" show. 

They set root in Montana because she can't go any farther and needs rest, the last scene of the season will be some narration about how the land is wild and tough but beautiful and giving and how she knew it was going to be their home.  I guess in the 1893 scene maybe she had moved back to Kansas to live with Sam.

[mythoughtis]

I do not believe she will ever  be back with Sam.  The recap of the scene I haven’t  actually seen yet said she woke up with a fever.  So she will either die, or be sickly for some time.  Plus Margaret isn’t  going to let James take her back to Kansas on his own, leaving her and John on their own in Montana after this trek. Elsa sure can’t make it back on her own.   She managed to get herself shot with an arrow in 10 minutes. Being the wife of a Comanche several days away isn’t going to stop her being kidnapped by a different tribe.   Sam isn’t going to know where she is to come find her. Then there’s the inevitable PTSD of being a survivor of an Native American attack, scarred for life by the arrow and the cauterization and then seeing Sam the next time. 

Sheridan has built Elsa up to be this super pioneer woman, but he didn’t actually give her a background for all this GI Jane behavior of hers. Sure, she can sit a horse- but she rides it as a formal rider ( look at the way she holds the reins).  She played classical music  on that piano.   She spent the first few episodes in a sparklingclean dress, wandering through the meadow while the rest of the women did all the camp work, and all looked dirty as hell.   Never even took care of her brother once. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by mythoughtis

[LadyIrony]

I had to laugh at Elsa’s speech about the dress squashing her womanhood. That dress showed her curves and bust more than the rather dubious Native American sleeveless top and pants with chaps.For once Elsa actually looked feminine.

and the tribe allowed her to live even after she kills two of their warriors? And this tribe speak the same language as the Comanche? Not to mention they readily believe she is married to a Comanche brave? We are seeing a lot of 2022 race relations and attitudes in this show.

I couldn’t understand the point of the men going off to kill the group who massacred the village either. They sure do love the full frontal assault too, heavily outnumbered and yet come out of it 9  a scratch. That sure was a good thing to do, wouldn’t want the NA’s thinking your group killed their women and children! As if they would know or care to stop and ask anyway. 

I think James is writing Elsa off a little too quickly. She probably will die but to write her off before she even shows signs of illness? I think I would still want to take her to a doctor. Understandable an operation back then would be dangerous but some meds wouldn’t be a bad idea.

I wonder if Shea and Thomas will end up staying on with James and become the first branded men on the Yellowstone ranch. 
 

I agree with @mythoughtis there isn’t anything about Elsa that suggests she should be a pioneer/warrior woman. Margaret seems more capable of that than Elsa. I think Sheridan is just fantasising as per usual. 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by LadyIrony

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Sheridan has built Elsa up to be this super pioneer woman, but he didn’t actually give her a background for all this GI Jane behavior of hers. Sure, she can sit a horse- but she rides it aa a formal rider ( look at the way she holds the reins).  She played classical music  on that piano.   She spent the first few episodes in a sparkling clean dress, wandering through the meadow while the rest of the women did all the camp work, and all looked dirty as hell.   Never even took care of her brother once. 

 

29 minutes ago, LadyIrony said:

I had to laugh at Elsa’s speech about the dress squashing her womanhood. That dress showed her curves and bust more than the rather dubious Native American sleeveless top and pants with chaps. For once Elsa actually looked feminine.

and the tribe allowed her to live even after she kills two of their warriors? And this tribe speak the same language as the Comanche? Not to mention they readily believe she is married to a Comanche brave? We are seeing a lot of 2022 race relations and attitudes in this show.

I couldn’t understand the point of the men going off to kill the group who massacred the village either. They sure do love the full frontal assault too, heavily outnumbered and yet come out of it 9  a scratch. That sure was a good thing to do, wouldn’t want the NA’s thinking your group killed their women and children! As if they would know or care to stop and ask anyway. 

I think James is writing Elsa off a little too quickly. She probably will die but to write her off before she even shows signs of illness? I think I would still want to take her to a doctor. Understandable an operation back then would be dangerous but some meds wouldn’t be a bad idea.

I wonder if Shea and Thomas will end up staying on with James and become the first branded men on the Yellowstone ranch. 
 

I agree with @mythoughtis there isn’t anything about Elsa that suggests she should be a pioneer/warrior woman. Margaret seems more capable of that than Elsa. I think Sheridan is just fantasising as per usual. 

 

Agree about Elsa.  Not sure when or how she was transformed into this paragon of pioneer womankind, able to do anything and everything.  We do see that James basically treats her as a son.  She was obviously their only child for a while, and he trained her how to ride and help out with riding tasks.  He takes her hunting, and when the team needed another rider to help with the cattle rustling, he took her.  Then she forced her way into riding with him when they were going to confront the cattle thieves.  Ennis died, and she shot the guy who killed him.  This past episode, she wanted to go with James to hunt down the Indian killers, and he was firm with her and said "no.  We already done that once." and she stayed behind.  

The writing for her is all uneven.  Not sure what kinds of ideas are going through her head or where she gets them from.  What put the idea for wearing pants into her head?  I don't think women usually wore pants in those days, except for people like Calamity Jane.  Why does Elsa want to wear pants and dress like a man?  But at the same time, she tells her mother that she is now a woman and can make her own choices as to who she opens her legs for.  I just don't fully get her.  Is she an early feminist?  Is she a bratty young adult?  Or does she just hate her mom?

Her role model should be her mother, and yet it seems to me that she despises her mother for refusing to break societal norms.  It is obvious that she hates Margaret and everything she stands for.  When, as pointed out above, Margaret seems to be the true pioneer woman.  Driving the wagon seemed like something that only men did, and yet she was doing it and was very skilled at it.  James commented in one episode that Margaret could drive a wagon backwards into a saloon if she had to.  Margaret is skilled in camp life, she can shoot a gun and she is a fierce mother who will do anything to protect her children.

I wish Margaret had a larger role in this series other than always having to be Elsa's put upon mother.  When they announced casting for this series I was skeptical of Faith Hill's acting abilities.  But she has really brought it and hit it out of the park.  She has been great.  Isabelle May, on the other hand, is the pits.  She's terrible.

[LadyIrony]

40 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Agree about Elsa.  Not sure when or how she was transformed into this paragon of pioneer womankind, able to do anything and everything.  We do see that James basically treats her as a son.  She was obviously their only child for a while, and he trained her how to ride and help out with riding tasks.  He takes her hunting, and when the team needed another rider to help with the cattle rustling, he took her.  Then she forced her way into riding with him when they were going to confront the cattle thieves.  Ennis died, and she shot the guy who killed him.  This past episode, she wanted to go with James to hunt down the Indian killers, and he was firm with her and said "no.  We already done that once." and she stayed behind.  

The writing for her is all uneven.  Not sure what kinds of ideas are going through her head or where she gets them from.  What put the idea for wearing pants into her head?  I don't think women usually wore pants in those days, except for people like Calamity Jane.  Why does Elsa want to wear pants and dress like a man?  But at the same time, she tells her mother that she is now a woman and can make her own choices as to who she opens her legs for.  I just don't fully get her.  Is she an early feminist?  Is she a bratty young adult?  Or does she just hate her mom?

Her role model should be her mother, and yet it seems to me that she despises her mother for refusing to break societal norms.  It is obvious that she hates Margaret and everything she stands for.  When, as pointed out above, Margaret seems to be the true pioneer woman.  Driving the wagon seemed like something that only men did, and yet she was doing it and was very skilled at it.  James commented in one episode that Margaret could drive a wagon backwards into a saloon if she had to.  Margaret is skilled in camp life, she can shoot a gun and she is a fierce mother who will do anything to protect her children.

I wish Margaret had a larger role in this series other than always having to be Elsa's put upon mother.  When they announced casting for this series I was skeptical of Faith Hill's acting abilities.  But she has really brought it and hit it out of the park.  She has been great.  Isabelle May, on the other hand, is the pits.  She's terrible.

I don't understand either, one moment she is this dreamy young woman waxing lyrical about her experiences while sitting in a field and the next she is shooting it out with the bad guys. Then she goes back to wanting to be some kind of prim and proper woman again except she doesn't want to wear a dress. 

I wonder if Sheridan is actually writing her as a satire of the modern woman who doesn't really know who she is but wants to be everything anyway? 

Feminist or not to be so open sexually at that time, especially with parents and others fully aware and even in view is a huge thing to do even now. Then to also do the same with an Indian? I don't think so. 

I am really wondering who the target audience for this show is. Elsa is obviously aimed at the younger woman who thinks she can do anything at all but I feel she is a bit of a joke for most people who are older and know that life just isn't that easy. I feel Faith Hill is doing fine in the role much better than Isabel May who doesn't even sound like her parents. 

I find Shea and Thomas to be more interesting characters overall. Even some of the immigrants could do with some back story added. The Gypsy woman and the leader of the Immigrant group. It would be good to see some flashback scenes of Europe and how they come to leave. 

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, LadyIrony said:

wonder if Shea and Thomas will end up staying on with James and become the first branded men on the Yellowstone ranch. 

They may stay- but the branded men are all criminals. Rip killed his dad.  Jimmy was a thief and arsonist.  Lloyd’s crime is unknown. .  Walker was branded as soon as he got on the ranch from prison.  The bunkhouse crew were branded after they killed the men who attacked Teeter and the guy whose name I forgot. Kacey got his girlfriend pregnant ( not a crime, but John branded him anyway). 

Edited February 22, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Duke Silver]

Didn't realize I was signing up for Wonder Woman on the Prairie when I started watching this.

 

I'll watch the finale at some point in all likelihood, but this show is simply not meant for me.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, Duke Silver said:

Didn't realize I was signing up for Wonder Woman on the Prairie when I started watching this.

 

I'll watch the finale at some point in all likelihood, but this show is simply not meant for me.

Yep.  When they announced the premise of this series, my concern was that it all sounded so bleak.  And it has indeed been bleak.   Nasty Aunt Clara picked a fight with some dudes who killed a bunch of the pioneers.  She gets her daughter killed and kills herself.  The German/Slavs getting sick from the water.  One woman dying after getting bit by a snake while taking a pee.  Being forced to get rid of almost all of their stuff.  People dying in the river.  Losing lots of stuff in the tornado.  Being attacked by horse thieves.  Ennis dying.  Being attacked by Indians.

I realise that historically, this kind of trip was indeed bleak and fraught with death and danger.  But this is a TV show.  There needs to be some balance.  Where are the good parts?  About the only good piece of luck was finding some wild cattle.  Where are the scenes of the immigrants being happy around a campfire, singing their local songs and dancing?  Where are the scenes of James and Margaret and Elsa and John being happy together as a family?  Where are the scenes of happy pioneer life, discussion of their hopes and dreams and looking forward to the future?  Poor John.  What does that kid do all day, every day?  We never see what he is doing, he's always just in the way or an afterthought.

My fear is that all of the "happy parts" are supposed to be connected with Elsa and her self-discovery as a woman/cowboy/Comanche.  Ugh.  If that's what we are supposed to find hope in, then no thanks.

I too am not sure if this show is for me if Elsa lives and is going to continue to be the show's voice.  For Season 2, I want to see a traditional Western with a fledging Western town.  I want to see how James and Margaret build a home.  How they survive.   What the threats are and how they deal with those threats.  I want to see town life, with a saloon and a player piano and James confronting his rivals.  I want to see how Margaret finds her place in the community.  I want to see Shea and Thomas working with/for James.  I want to see them taking those nasty rivals to the original "train station".

My feeling is that this show doesn't need Elsa to do that.  In fact, I think Elsa will only bring the show down.  What is Elsa going to do in Montana besides just finding yet another man to discover herself with, while lamenting the fact that she isn't with Sam?

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Yep.  When they announced the premise of this series, my concern was that it all sounded so bleak.  And it has indeed been bleak.   Nasty Aunt Clara picked a fight with some dudes who killed a bunch of the pioneers.  She gets her daughter killed and kills herself.  The German/Slavs getting sick from the water.  One woman dying after getting bit by a snake while taking a pee.  Being forced to get rid of almost all of their stuff.  People dying in the river.  Losing lots of stuff in the tornado.  Being attacked by horse thieves.  Ennis dying.  Being attacked by Indians.

I realise that historically, this kind of trip was indeed bleak and fraught with death and danger.  But this is a TV show.  There needs to be some balance.  Where are the good parts?  About the only good piece of luck was finding some wild cattle.  Where are the scenes of the immigrants being happy around a campfire, singing their local songs and dancing?  Where are the scenes of James and Margaret and Elsa and John being happy together as a family?  Where are the scenes of happy pioneer life, discussion of their hopes and dreams and looking forward to the future?  Poor John.  What does that kid do all day, every day?  We never see what he is doing, he's always just in the way or an afterthought.

My fear is that all of the "happy parts" are supposed to be connected with Elsa and her self-discovery as a woman/cowboy/Comanche.  Ugh.  If that's what we are supposed to find hope in, then no thanks.

I too am not sure if this show is for me if Elsa lives and is going to continue to be the show's voice.  For Season 2, I want to see a traditional Western with a fledging Western town.  I want to see how James and Margaret build a home.  How they survive.   What the threats are and how they deal with those threats.  I want to see town life, with a saloon and a player piano and James confronting his rivals.  I want to see how Margaret finds her place in the community.  I want to see Shea and Thomas working with/for James.  I want to see them taking those nasty rivals to the original "train station".

My feeling is that this show doesn't need Elsa to do that.  In fact, I think Elsa will only bring the show down.  What is Elsa going to do in Montana besides just finding yet another man to discover herself with, while lamenting the fact that she isn't with Sam?

100% agree. Surely people back then weren't all that different to people now. How long can you keep pushing yourself if there is no hope, no light moments? At what cost do you just keep pushing forward? To me the immigrants seem very ill prepared which leads me to think that they just aren't tough enough to keep pushing on the way they do. 

Any happiness appears to be reserved for Elsa which makes me dislike her even more. She is spoiled brat playing at being whatever she feels like at the moment. 

I'd like to see the same things you do but yes Elsa does just ruin it. We just know it will be romance after romance and her performing the incredible against great odds. Makes you wonder why she just doesn't lead the wagon train. 

[JayDub1987]

Wow. I didn't realize so many people watched this show while hating the main character. I guess I'm in the minority here, but I enjoy it. I like the Elsa character, think Tim McGraw does a GREAT job (Faith's acting leaves a bit to be desired, but they're a package deal), and anything Sam Elliot does/has ever done/will ever do is gold. 

[rhygirl720]

well, that was something...

I usually like to rewatch before commenting but I don't think I could.

I'm over Teflon prairie barbie... it's all just not believable. Totally agree with someone above who commented on her riding. She rides like she is doing western dressage...not like someone who's been riding forever.... stiff

Whole episode was bleak. I wonder how anyone made it through the prairie.

As much as I love some of the other characters, I'm not sure I could watch another season of this.

[Haleth]

I hope she makes it. I suppose (adult) John could be the narrator next season but I did enjoy a female pov.

I was so impressed with Tim and Faith during their conversation. Their pain was tangible. Very well acted IMO.

[Crashcourse]

2 hours ago, rhygirl720 said:

I'm over Teflon prairie barbie..

What a perfect description!

[loki310]

I’m more interested in the immigrants than I am Elsa and her family. And now it seems like all the immigrants are dead. Bummer. 

[Affogato]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:39 PM, LadyIrony said:

I don't understand either, one moment she is this dreamy young woman waxing lyrical about her experiences while sitting in a field and the next she is shooting it out with the bad guys. Then she goes back to wanting to be some kind of prim and proper woman again except she doesn't want to wear a dress. 

I wonder if Sheridan is actually writing her as a satire of the modern woman who doesn't really know who she is but wants to be everything anyway? 

Feminist or not to be so open sexually at that time, especially with parents and others fully aware and even in view is a huge thing to do even now. Then to also do the same with an Indian? I don't think so. 

I am really wondering who the target audience for this show is. Elsa is obviously aimed at the younger woman who thinks she can do anything at all but I feel she is a bit of a joke for most people who are older and know that life just isn't that easy. I feel Faith Hill is doing fine in the role much better than Isabel May who doesn't even sound like her parents. 

I find Shea and Thomas to be more interesting characters overall. Even some of the immigrants could do with some back story added. The Gypsy woman and the leader of the Immigrant group. It would be good to see some flashback scenes of Europe and how they come to leave. 

This is not a feminist show. I could blather for a while, but ultimately Elsa sounds modern because she is the voice that speaks directly to us about the land and the changing reactions of the people traveling on the land. Her character reminds us that sometimes being a cowboy is fun and riding along the plains is freeing, Native American's are just people, and the hardships eventually frighten you and weigh down on you. She is more of a greek chorus and less of a person. This is a reminder that this pushing west, it is an American epic story and must be given the theatrical respect it desrves. I thought, this episode, that we saw some better acting and more depth from her (and her parents) and I was touched. So far Shea has been the lead this season, but if the reins of leadership pass to the Duttons, the tragedy of Elsa will help give them some gravitas.

[LadyIrony]

15 hours ago, Affogato said:

This is not a feminist show. I could blather for a while, but ultimately Elsa sounds modern because she is the voice that speaks directly to us about the land and the changing reactions of the people traveling on the land. Her character reminds us that sometimes being a cowboy is fun and riding along the plains is freeing, Native American's are just people, and the hardships eventually frighten you and weigh down on you. She is more of a greek chorus and less of a person. This is a reminder that this pushing west, it is an American epic story and must be given the theatrical respect it desrves. I thought, this episode, that we saw some better acting and more depth from her (and her parents) and I was touched. So far Shea has been the lead this season, but if the reins of leadership pass to the Duttons, the tragedy of Elsa will help give them some gravitas.

There is a detachment in her tone when she speaks of what she is experiencing or she is trying very hard to sound poetic. Her mother tells her that this is the most freedom she would ever experience. I would imagine in that respect they would not want to rush the journey too much as the adults know what awaits them is responsibility and rules. 

I feel we are supposed to look to the Dutton's as the main characters but it is odd given Shea steals the show. Perhaps if Sheridan is watching for public opinion he might realize that there are "Break Out" characters in this show that deserve more attention than Elsa in particular and even the Dutton themselves. 

Maybe not feminist but definitely pulp romance novel aimed at young adults.

Edited February 27, 2022 by LadyIrony

[rr2911]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:36 AM, mythoughtis said:

I watched the episode last night.  Then I read a couple recaps online.  Both recaps describe an ending scene in the episode that was not on the episode I watched.  The last scene I watched was Margaret telling James  she needed a minute and him walking back towards the fire - set just a couple minutes after their discussion of staying where they will bury Elsa. The recaps describe a scene the next morning narrated by Elsa.  Did any of you see this scene? 
 

Yes!  I thought Elsa died!  But I read online about the season finale and the the headline read, "Will Elsa die in the season's finale?"  Huh??

[Affogato]

On 2/26/2022 at 4:12 PM, LadyIrony said:

There is a detachment in her tone when she speaks of what she is experiencing or she is trying very hard to sound poetic. Her mother tells her that this is the most freedom she would ever experience. I would imagine in that respect they would not want to rush the journey too much as the adults know what awaits them is responsibility and rules. 

I feel we are supposed to look to the Dutton's as the main characters but it is odd given Shea steals the show. Perhaps if Sheridan is watching for public opinion he might realize that there are "Break Out" characters in this show that deserve more attention than Elsa in particular and even the Dutton themselves. 

Maybe not feminist but definitely pulp romance novel aimed at young adults.

Oh I think that shea is a lead. It isn’t an unintentional breakout. he is one of the POV characters. 

He is one pole and elsa is the other.

The twist is that this is hia last trail and her first trail, but then it is her last trail, too. 

[LadyIrony]

Can we talk about the questionable strategies and tactics by Elsa and the Indians?

Why would Elsa try and lead the Indians away? She is one they are many, she was bound to lose. Why afterward would the tribe allow her to live after she killed two of their warriors? I’m thinking she would have met a far more brutal end.

And why would the Indians breakaway in such a large group after one woman? Surely two at most warriors could have dispatched her? I’m thinking in reality she would not be worth the trouble. Main battle is with the wagons. For a show that likes to lionise Indians it really does make them look stoopid at times.

And what is with going after the men who killed the tribe women and children in the hope it will save your own?!

Too much stoopid going on here.

[ShortyMac]

43 minutes ago, LadyIrony said:

Can we talk about the questionable strategies and tactics by Elsa and the Indians?

Why would Elsa try and lead the Indians away? She is one they are many, she was bound to lose. Why afterward would the tribe allow her to live after she killed two of their warriors? I’m thinking she would have met a far more brutal end.

And why would the Indians breakaway in such a large group after one woman? Surely two at most warriors could have dispatched her? I’m thinking in reality she would not be worth the trouble. Main battle is with the wagons. For a show that likes to lionise Indians it really does make them look stoopid at times.

And what is with going after the men who killed the tribe women and children in the hope it will save your own?!

Too much stoopid going on here.

I was wondering why Elsa didn't yell in Comanche sooner. She could have saved herself, and the others.

[LadyIrony]

2 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

I was wondering why Elsa didn't yell in Comanche sooner. She could have saved herself, and the others.

In Sheridan's vision of the West all the Native Tribes are on good terms but in reality the Comanche were hated as they were the most brutal. I am not so sure that knowing some words in Comanche or any other Native language would have worked. By 1883 the Natives would have encountered many whites who had learned to speak their tongue anyway. They are acting like it's first contact in the very early years of European settlement.

[KAOS Agent]

23 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

I was wondering why Elsa didn't yell in Comanche sooner.

That would have been like yelling Spanish at a Russian. Comanche and Dakota are completely different languages. They aren't even in the same language family. It was ridiculous that the warrior understood what she said unless he happened to know Shoshone (they were once the same tribe as the Comanche), a mortal enemy to the Lakota. And given the whole we kill each other mentality between those two groups, speaking Shoshone would have also triggered an attack. The Shoshone and Crow were on the side of the US Army during the Lakota War and are a big reason why Crook's army didn't end up just like Custer since their scouts provided warning of the coming surprise attack and provided cover for their retreat. A week later, Custer ran into that same group of Lakota/Cheyenne at Little Big Horn. Needless to say, Shoshone and Lakota were not friendly and speaking to one in the language of their enemy would not end well.

[Affogato]

sorry wrong thread

Edited March 10, 2022 by Affogato