S14.E08: Striking a Balance

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I don't think it's fair to judge a person we've never seen and the only thing we know about is from Lindsey, which, consider the source.

Actually, I would consider that our job.  Or at least the producers' expectation of us.

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I don't think it's fair to judge a person we've never seen and the only thing we know about is from Lindsey, which, consider the source. I would have been prone to think like you and judge parents for kids behavior until I had a special needs kid that has social and behavior issues. You cannot see her issues outwardly - she looks like your average teenager. If you met her, you might think my husband and I are terrible people having raised a rude, uncouth, anti-social kid, but I have spent blood, sweat and tears trying to help this kid with meds and therapy, both for myself and her. Conversely, if you met my son, you would think differently - he's the sweetest, kindest person I know. Yet we are the same people raising completely opposite kids. Many times the apple's behavior has nothing to do with the tree it fell from. Lindsey is a grown woman. Her mother is not responsible for her at this point. The only one responsible for Lindsey's behavior is Lindsey.

That's what we do here on this board - judge people we haven't met based on what we see of them on a TV show so I don't think I'm out of bounds or unfair for suspecting what I do about Lindsey or her mother.  Usually it works the other way around, that people like her become the way they are largely because of their upbringing and life experiences.  And if she were born with a "special need" why has that not come out about her before this?  If her parents spent that much time trying to help her I'd have a hard time believing it would be that much of a secret to anyone interviewing her as an adult and it would have come out about her by now. 

I personally think her issues arise from an abusive and perhaps in some way neglectful parent or parents leading up to severe abandonment issues that trigger her verbal tirades when she is most afraid of losing someone yet again (in this case Mark).  She acts consistent with a person that is very vindictive over wrongs done to her because she feels like she was screwed over in life in some way, and she may actually have been.  I don't see her as someone that is just rude because she is "special needs".  I'm not willing to let her parents off that easy.  I've known people similar to her and in all cases there was some kind of abuse and/or neglect going on.  Your experiences may differ.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Yeah No

[Gator Stud]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:57 PM, Tunia said:

I suspect that a good part of Noi's concern ever Steve's freelance style may be the lack of concrete stability, the lack of a base to his employment that would provide such things as maternity benefits, medical plans, etc. that she doesn't want to be responsible for providing long term.

Why does Noi think that Corporate America is secure? Didnt she just hear about Steve getting laid off? Noi wants to force Steve back on the Hamster Wheel but Steve has better plans that Noi is incapable of understanding. There is no such thing as concrete stability in Corporate America.  Noi has been brainwashed and is unable to think bigger.

[Gator Stud]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:19 PM, Racj82 said:

I think Katina's bad behavior will escalate now that she's learned her husband prefers white women. 

O never said he prefers White women.  He said White women seem attracted to him so that is who he dated/sexed.  That's a huge difference. O doesnt seem like the type to put in the hard work, so he took the easy prey. More vulture than eagle. 

[Gator Stud]

On 2/25/2022 at 10:57 AM, Racj82 said:

If he had that he would of said that. Since he hasn't, that's not something he's going to say or do

What makes you think this?  Many people are very uncomfortable talking about their money, especially on national TV. Maybe he does have bank, but just doesn't want to tell everybody about it. NOI is a recruiter.  She should know better about how Corporate America is insecure. Why does she assume if Steve gets a "job" with some corporation, that he wont again get laid off when the company needs its stock price to go up? Noi is in fantasy land.

[Gator Stud]

On 2/25/2022 at 11:11 AM, ByTor said:

Self-employed is not the same as unemployed, and if that's how he meant it then he's not that great at explaining himself. Plus, if he was self-employed, why the mentions of "I can always get a job?" Sounds like a jobless person to me. And like someone who doesn't want to look for a job.

America really seems brainwashed that you have to be a slave to a company in order to be a valued member of society. Doing things on your own is considered "bad" and "unsafe".

 

On 2/25/2022 at 1:14 PM, Lindz said:

Why couldn't Kat say, "I'm uncomfortable with the sexual innuendos. Please stop."

You mean the Kat whos husband brags publicly about threesomes and banging mother/daughter teams?  That Katrina? She is uncomfortable with sexual innuendos? 

[Racj82]

1 hour ago, Gator Stud said:

O never said he prefers White women.  He said White women seem attracted to him so that is who he dated/sexed.  That's a huge difference. O doesnt seem like the type to put in the hard work, so he took the easy prey. More vulture than eagle. 

If you say so. O said something. Doesn't make it true. Women of all races would be attracted to him. Especially in their 20s. Come on now. It's a reason to at least give some pause as a black woman hearing that. She seems to be cool with it. We don't know if that's a front or not. Her friend sure wasn't.

1 hour ago, Gator Stud said:

What makes you think this?  Many people are very uncomfortable talking about their money, especially on national TV. Maybe he does have bank, but just doesn't want to tell everybody about it. NOI is a recruiter.  She should know better about how Corporate America is insecure. Why does she assume if Steve gets a "job" with some corporation, that he wont again get laid off when the company needs its stock price to go up? Noi is in fantasy land.

I'm talking about in private. He would have told her. Since they are married you know. That is something you disclose. Especially when your spouse is so worried about stability. If had a million in the bank or something like that to calm her nervousness I'm sure he would have. I'm sure he has saved well but is it enough for Noi? Probably not.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Racj82

[Gator Stud]

21 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Because she's planning for the future, which living on savings is the opposite of.

On 2/28/2022 at 6:10 PM, Gator Stud said:

What about what Steve wants for his future?  Does that count?  Or does she want to force Steve to make $3M for the 3 kids she insists on? Steve just got off of the Hamster Wheel (or was forced off), and here is Noi demanding that he slave away at Corporate America so she can have 3 kids.  Maybe Noi is the selfish one.  What about Steve's needs? Is he just a sperm donor/$$ provider to her? What is in it for Steve besides the sex?  Steve just got burned out and Noi wants him to repeat the same mistakes, just so she can have 3 kids.  
 

After my divorce and when I was dating in LA, nobody was sweating me like Noi is, even though I was an "unemployed" beach bum. Women saw the potential.  Not once was I asked why I didn't have a job. And I was crashing with my female friend, so I guess I was "homeless". Noi is being completely unrealistic.  If I met a woman who told me she needed me to give her three kids and get a job that I hated, I would be running the other way. Is Noi thinking things through?

[Gator Stud]

21 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

It doesn't sound like Noi wants to be broke, so she would be an unsuitable partner for your friend.  I don't think that makes her an bad person, or even an unreasonable one.

He isnt broke, he lives in Beverley Hills, but he would rather be broke than work in a job that he hates.  Noi is totally unreasonable dropping the 3 kids thing on him and then expecting him to work in a job he doesnt like. Employees have all the leverage post-COVID. Noi expects Steve to throw all that leverage away so Noi can fulfill her 3 kid fantasy and Steve can become a corporate slave.  That is bad long-term planning.  Why does Noi think that 3 kids are reasonable?  Maybe if she only had one kid, she would not be so freaked out and annoying about Steve's choices.

[ByTor]

 

2 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

On 2/25/2022 at 2:11 PM, ByTor said:

Self-employed is not the same as unemployed, and if that's how he meant it then he's not that great at explaining himself. Plus, if he was self-employed, why the mentions of "I can always get a job?" Sounds like a jobless person to me. And like someone who doesn't want to look for a job.

America really seems brainwashed that you have to be a slave to a company in order to be a valued member of society. Doing things on your own is considered "bad" and "unsafe".

Where in my post did I say that?

[StatisticalOutlier]

1 hour ago, Gator Stud said:

He isnt broke, he lives in Beverley Hills, but he would rather be broke than work in a job that he hates. 

Well, he says he'd rather be broke, but he apparently hasn't actually been presented with it.  I think about all these people who quit their jobs during the pandemic, but had the cushion of loosely scrutinized unemployment claims, along with generous additional pandemic unemployment benefits.  It's not that hard to quit your job when you're getting paid not to work as a matter of public policy.  But that generally doesn't last forever, and then it becomes a matter of needing to make money to survive, and being idealistically principled becomes a little more difficult.

1 hour ago, Gator Stud said:

Why does Noi think that 3 kids are reasonable?  Maybe if she only had one kid, she would not be so freaked out and annoying about Steve's choices.

Well, we want what we want.  (Each word in that sentence starts with a "w" totally by accident!)  I'm pretty sure she didn't keep her desire for exactly three kids a secret from the "experts," and I particularly don't think she should abandon that desire just because the guy they matched her with doesn't appear to have the type of stability she's seeking for her family.  (However I do think she should abandon her desire for exactly three kids because it's dumb.) 

There might be the possibility of compromise in their situation, but that would usually come from being invested enough in the other person that in order not to lose them, you (preferably both of you) compromise.  I don't think any part of MAFS is an ideal format for that to happen when it comes to major beliefs or lifestyle choices.

3 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

Why does Noi think that Corporate America is secure? Didnt she just hear about Steve getting laid off?

Maybe she noticed the pandemic, and thinks it had something to do with Steve's layoff.  In fact, all evidence is that he had a very secure job--he didn't get laid off--until the pandemic. 

3 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

Noi wants to force Steve back on the Hamster Wheel but Steve has better plans that Noi is incapable of understanding.

Steve has different plans.  He thinks they're better, while Noi does not.  Maybe she doesn't understand them, or maybe she does understand them and has formed an opinion about them that doesn't happen to match Steve's.

[Gator Stud]

3 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Maybe she noticed the pandemic, and thinks it had something to do with Steve's layoff.  In fact, all evidence is that he had a very secure job--he didn't get laid off--until the pandemic. 

That is a very convenient excuse.  Either there is loyalty or no loyalty.  If Corporate America can toss you aside anytime they feel like it, regardless of performance, than why shouldn't workers be mercenaries any look out for themselves.  I like what Steve is doing. He will be fine.  But not if he is forced to go work at a place he hates so that he fulfills his 3 child duty.  Right now he doesn't have to stress at all.  Now this this new girl is giving him tons of stress just so she can have her 3 kids. She is so brainwashed about the Corporate America 9-5 gig (really more like 8-7), that she just cannot imagine a brighter future.  Americans are quitting their jobs and getting like 40% raises. They are demanding more from work.  Where does Steve want to be in 10 years?  Did Noi even ask? Or is she so obsessed with the the 9-5 brainwashing that she is missing this? She just wants him to have a Corporate America job.  Whether it is satisfying to him, or whether it makes sense in the long run, she doesnt care.  She wants to be able to tell her friends, "my husband is the Senior Director of X.... and makes Y" even if that means Steve goes bald in a year from the stress, and makes less money than he could on his own. American workers are snapping out of this mentality, but apparently Noi is obsessed with it.  What if Noi forces Steve back on the Corporate America Hamster Wheel, and he gets laid off again?  How secure is that? She doesnt even think about that. Once you have 3 kids, that means you can never quit your job, no matter how bad or unhealthy things get, and you surrender your entire life to your employer.   Don't think Steve will get ever get to see his kids or hang out with his wife, once he gets on the Hamster Wheel to support 3 kids.  I get that she is insecure because of her upbringing, but she is being ridiculous at this point. What does she think will happen if Steve takes off another 3 months?  That all of a sudden he will forget how to build apps? This seems like more of a status thing for her.

 

[Gator Stud]

19 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Steve has different plans.  He thinks they're better, while Noi does not.  Maybe she doesn't understand them, or maybe she does understand them and has formed an opinion about them that doesn't happen to match Steve's.

You dont think Noi is to blame for insisting that they have 3 kids? Those are not normal plans.  And then making him work at some bad job to support them?  Maybe Noi should just back off on that a bit.  Steve is not going to go back to a job that he hates and then get laid off again, just so Noi can have 3 kids. This is the American dream?  Freedom is more like the American dream, and now Steve has that.  Noi wants to harsh his buzz with massive obligations. Noi is telling Steve he better make $3M off the bat, if things are going to work.  She doesnt say that directly, but you can do the math.

[Ilovepie]

18 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Actually, I would consider that our job.  Or at least the producers' expectation of us.

Speculation and judgement of the participants? Sure. I 100% support analyzing the people on this show - that's why I'm here on this forum! Their unseen parents who have nothing to do with this shit show? I doubt the producers care what the audience thinks about Lindsey's absent mother, and my own life experience has tempered my willingness to judge other people for their kids actions, particularly when the person in question is a grown adult.

[Ilovepie]

14 hours ago, Yeah No said:

That's what we do here on this board - judge people we haven't met based on what we see of them on a TV show so I don't think I'm out of bounds or unfair for suspecting what I do about Lindsey or her mother.  Usually it works the other way around, that people like her become the way they are largely because of their upbringing and life experiences.  And if she were born with a "special need" why has that not come out about her before this?  If her parents spent that much time trying to help her I'd have a hard time believing it would be that much of a secret to anyone interviewing her as an adult and it would have come out about her by now. 

I personally think her issues arise from an abusive and perhaps in some way neglectful parent or parents leading up to severe abandonment issues that trigger her verbal tirades when she is most afraid of losing someone yet again (in this case Mark).  She acts consistent with a person that is very vindictive over wrongs done to her because she feels like she was screwed over in life in some way, and she may actually have been.  I don't see her as someone that is just rude because she is "special needs".  I'm not willing to let her parents off that easy.  I've known people similar to her and in all cases there was some kind of abuse and/or neglect going on.  Your experiences may differ.

You are absolutely entitled to have your opinion of why Lindsey is the way she is - my point is that it might not be as simple as "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". I never said Lindsey was special needs. I was using my life experience to explain why I don't necessary lay Lindsey's issues directly at the feet of her parents. And you say "based on what we see of them on a TV show" - well, we haven't seen Lindsey's mother. She is not involved in this show at all. We have no idea what she is like other than what Lindsey says. Based on what we've seen of Lindsey, I don't consider her a reliable source of information.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

You dont think Noi is to blame for insisting that they have 3 kids? Those are not normal plans. 

I think it's odd that Noi is so rigid on having exactly three kids, but I don't see what is "abnormal" about planning for three. A lot of couples plan for how many children they want, from "none" on up. 

[Yeah No]

51 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

You are absolutely entitled to have your opinion of why Lindsey is the way she is - my point is that it might not be as simple as "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". I never said Lindsey was special needs. I was using my life experience to explain why I don't necessary lay Lindsey's issues directly at the feet of her parents. And you say "based on what we see of them on a TV show" - well, we haven't seen Lindsey's mother. She is not involved in this show at all. We have no idea what she is like other than what Lindsey says. Based on what we've seen of Lindsey, I don't consider her a reliable source of information.

Well in bios I have read about her and episode recaps, in at least one scene before the wedding Lindsey said she had a rocky relationship with her mother but a close one with her dad and brother.  And given that they both came to her wedding and seemed pleasantly disposed toward her, and her mother, (who is divorced from her father) did not, I'd say that's more than enough reason right there to believe her and suspect that at least some of the responsibility for whatever's wrong with Lindsey lies with her mother.  I also read one recap that recounted a scene at the wedding where Lindsey talked with her brother and mentioned their strained relationship with their mother.  So between that and her father divorcing her mother I'd say I have more than enough reason to suspect that she's the source of Lindsey's hurts and lashing out at people when triggered.  Anyway, I don't just come to these conclusions out of nowhere.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Yeah No

[Yeah No]

6 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

Why does Noi think that Corporate America is secure? Didnt she just hear about Steve getting laid off? Noi wants to force Steve back on the Hamster Wheel but Steve has better plans that Noi is incapable of understanding. There is no such thing as concrete stability in Corporate America.  Noi has been brainwashed and is unable to think bigger.

I've said similar before, but I don't think Noi is that hung up on Corporate America.  If Steve owned a business and could show that it was successful I don't think that would bother her so much.  I don't agree that he has to have a salaried corporate job or she would feel insecure.  A lot of people own very successful businesses and I have seen nothing about Noi to indicate that she wouldn't be happy with someone that owned one.  She is hung up on financial security for sure, but I don't see the evidence that it's a salaried position or nothing for her. 

What I think is bothering her is that she doesn't see the drive in Steve to earn money, period, no matter how he earns it.  And if you don't have a salaried position you basically have to be concerned about where your next job or gig is coming from all the time.  He doesn't seem to have that kind of attitude and drive.  My husband owned his own business for 10 years and was always looking for his next client.  Being his own boss wasn't that freeing compared with a salaried position because instead of a boss he had to answer to and impress his clients and worry about keeping up a certain level of income.  Steve as he is presenting himself right now is not showing that kind of drive and ambition to find his next client.  If he could show her that it's in there somewhere she might not feel so insecure.  But the way he has been acting is not showing her that.  To be honest he acts a little too lackadaisical and laid back for someone that as a self employed person needs to think about where his next paycheck is coming from.  If that's because he's "financially secure" he needs to tell her that too.  I still think a big portfolio would do a lot to calm down her fears.  Obviously she hasn't been shown that.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Yeah No

[Gator Stud]

52 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I think it's odd that Noi is so rigid on having exactly three kids, but I don't see what is "abnormal" about planning for three. A lot of couples plan for how many children they want, from "none" on up. 

Lets do the math.  Steve is almost 40. So if he is going to make a big move on his own, NOW is the time to make it. Wasting another three years in some short-term deal to appease Noi, will hurt this couple in the long run.  When you are on a Hamster Wheel, it is impossible to think of the long term clearly and make good long term decisions. That's why Steve is taking time to figure things out.  He doesn't want to make the same mistake twice. And being forced to take a job that you know you are better than just because someone wants 3 kids, that will be even a worse decision.  What if Noi dumps Steve and then he starts a company or creates an app that kills it.  She would be looking back at that decision for eternity.

[Gator Stud]

9 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

What I think is bothering her is that she doesn't see the drive in Steve to earn money, period, no matter how he earns it. 

Doesnt he have a BS in Economics and Computer Science and then worked hard before getting laid off? Why do you have to show "drive" 24/7? Why cant you just chill and take a vacay like Europeans do?  One of my close buddies died of COVID at 38 after working 100 hour weeks and making Partner at his law firm.  He never got to enjoy life.  All Noi looks at is money.  Does Steve's happiness figure into her plans? There is more to life than working.

[Yeah No]

3 minutes ago, Gator Stud said:

Doesnt he have a BS in Economics and Computer Science and then worked hard before getting laid off? Why do you have to show "drive" 24/7? Why cant you just chill and take a vacay like Europeans do?  One of my close buddies died of COVID at 38 after working 100 hour weeks and making Partner at his law firm.  He never got to enjoy life.  All Noi looks at is money.  Does Steve's happiness figure into her plans? There is more to life than working.

She just met Steve and first impressions mean a lot.  He should know that.  He acts like he doesn't have to prove anything and that his word is good enough.  Well, maybe it's not good enough to someone who just married you as a stranger.

I am so sorry to hear about how you lost your good friend to Covid.  As you may or may not know I lost my father to Covid so I get it and my heart goes out to you.  ((Many hugs)).  Money isn't everything, you are right about that.  But I think when you're getting married and thinking about a future with kids it becomes more important until you have things worked out.  I personally think Noi and Steve are going to work things out in time.  And then maybe she can relax and enjoy life and not be so focused on money 24/7.  We can hope, anyway.

[StatisticalOutlier]

2 hours ago, Gator Stud said:

Noi is telling Steve he better make $3M off the bat, if things are going to work.  She doesnt say that directly, but you can do the math.

Three million dollars?  A year?  Right off the bat? 

You're right that she doesn't say that directly, but I don't hear it indirectly, or even hear any math that would result in that. 

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, Gator Stud said:

Lets do the math.  Steve is almost 40. So if he is going to make a big move on his own, NOW is the time to make it. Wasting another three years in some short-term deal to appease Noi, will hurt this couple in the long run.  When you are on a Hamster Wheel, it is impossible to think of the long term clearly and make good long term decisions. That's why Steve is taking time to figure things out.  He doesn't want to make the same mistake twice. And being forced to take a job that you know you are better than just because someone wants 3 kids, that will be even a worse decision.  What if Noi dumps Steve and then he starts a company or creates an app that kills it.  She would be looking back at that decision for eternity.

I still don’t understand why you think that planning to have three kids isn’t “normal.” That’s what I was asking about, not Steve’s employment.

FWIW, I’ve always worked for someone else and for the last 15 or so years, a for-odor it, publicly traded company. I’ve had no trouble doing any sort of long term planning.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Elizzikra

[Boo Boo]

If I were Noi, I'd be more concerned about living a nomadic lifestyle and having children than income sources.  Steve strikes me as the guy who would want to convert a school bus and bring their 3 children all over the states.  I mean, I know that it would be an incredible experience but I wouldn't want to have 3 kids doing remote learning or homeschooling in a tiny home.

Maybe that is one of her underlying concerns.

But again, here we go with the "experts" and production.  They should not be pairing someone who is an adventurer like he is with someone who is very conservative.  Neither one seem to be flexible to compromise, so you aren't bringing the best out in both by putting together polar opposites in lifestyle.

 

[Elizzikra]

16 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I still don’t understand why you think that planning to have three kids isn’t “normal.” That’s what I was asking about, not Steve’s employment.

FWIW, I’ve always worked for someone else and for the last 15 or so years, a for-odor it, publicly traded company. I’ve had no trouble doing any sort of long term planning.

I'm sure it varies enormously depending on how you raise your kid and, more importantly, where you live. I also have never heard Noi say that she expects Steven to be a sole wage earner.

[watchingtvaddict]

15 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I'm sure it varies enormously depending on how you raise your kid and, more importantly, where you live. I also have never heard Noi say that she expects Steven to be a sole wage earner.

It's the way she phrases things. 

I know several single moms raising 2-3 kids alone. 

If Noi is so determined to have 3 kids she can look into increasing her income and having Steve be a stay at home dad. One needs to find a compromise. If your spouse doesn't want to work a corporate gig and is more interested in part-time work/ consulting. You need to make up the difference if you want to raise three kids and not compromise and only have 1 or 2. 

[qtpye]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:10 AM, Gator Stud said:

O never said he prefers White women.  He said White women seem attracted to him so that is who he dated/sexed.  That's a huge difference. O doesnt seem like the type to put in the hard work, so he took the easy prey. More vulture than eagle. 

 

On 3/2/2022 at 11:55 AM, Racj82 said:

If you say so. O said something. Doesn't make it true. Women of all races would be attracted to him. Especially in their 20s. Come on now. It's a reason to at least give some pause as a black woman hearing that. She seems to be cool with it. We don't know if that's a front or not. Her friend sure wasn't.

I can see both of your points.  If black women are not attracted to Olaj then he should absolutely not waste his time when there are plenty of other women that would be happy to have him.

However, if Olaj is saying that black women are not attracted to him because he is biracial then I have to agree with @Racj82 and call bullshit on that. I am a woman of color, so I have been through some of these issues. As Katina's friend said, he looks like an African American man and has a nice body that he is not shy about showing off.

However, his experiences are his own and I will respect that.

 

[Lindz]

Oh ya. I forgot Steve told Noi to ask for space during his lecture. Ya. That's gunna be a no. Nobody has to ask for space. If they need it, say they'll be taking it & for how long.

[DrewPaul2010]

Is it true Alyssa is still daubing her eyes?

[kikicat]

9 hours ago, DrewPaul2010 said:

Is it true Alyssa is still daubing her eyes?

Three-inch lashes = a veritable river of streaming mascara. I've invested in Kleenex stock.

[Scout Finch]

I would give anything to watch Alyssa's friend's reactions while she watches the show and sees that what happened was actually the complete opposite of the story that was spun! She already has Alyssa's number on finding any reason to discard a guy.