S01.E08: The Weep Of Surrender

[tessaray]

Release Date: February 13, 2022

Elsa makes a big decision. Shea faces doubts as winter looms.

[NeenerNeener]

After this episode I still don't see how we get to that massacre that was the opening scene in the pilot. Elsa's married Comanche Sam and she's wearing deerskin chaps. 

It looks like "1883" could stretch for several actual years because it's almost the end of the 1st season and these folks are a long way from being settled anywhere. I'm not sure I'm going to make it through a second season if it's just more of this.

Edited February 13, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[toodywoody]

So now I am hoping she is pregnant with Sam's kid. Is the beginning scene going to be her coming back to him?

[Rorysmom]

Really wonderful episode. 

We know how it all ends on Yellowstone. It's so wonderful watching how it gets there. This is an origin story worth the telling.

We all know how it ends in real life, too. How the west was "won." All I hope for this show and Taylor Sheridan is that he tells a complete, complex, three-dimensional story of all the people involved. Indigenous. Newly-freed but still very much prohibited Blacks. Struggling immigrants. I want a new breed of western for us and our children and their children to look back on. A new starting point.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Rorysmom

[cdnalor]

Elsa telling her mother she's an adult because she's 18 sounds like an error.  I'm pretty sure the age of majority in the US was 21 back then.  Of course, where they are now, there's no one to enforce that or any reason to.

In the scene where Elsa and her mother are by the river bank washing herself, I found Elsa coming off as rather haughty and pretentious.  I don't know if it was meant to be played that way but I suppose it tracks for a headstrong teenager who thinks she has it all figured out.

I'm curious to see how this story loops back to the massacre scene at the start of ep 1.

[Affogato]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_women's_legal_rights_in_the_United_States_(other_than_voting)
 

i’m not sure that Elsa’s being an 18 year old woman grants her many rights. Dad accepting the horse probably legitimatizes it.
 

i think  Elsa is a bit like Ayla in the Earth’s Children books. Ayla could not have invented everything but, over time, women could gave invented domestication and fire and weaving etc. So Elsa is the seed from which springs all modern women?

but the whole story here is a little unbelievable.    That perfect riding. Lassoing. Shooting the buffalo. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

Shea’s goodbyes to Goodnight were well done. His last trail.
 

I liked the interactions around the wagon train’s choosing direction,  although I don’t know why the immigrants would care really. Closer and same general terrain to farm in? I guess they are losing faith in Shea as a leader. 

why is elsa going with them? Job as a cowboy?

she has a dress left to wear. Maybe a connection to the first scene? 

[Suzee2]

Elsa tells Shea she's staying, not going to Oregon, then "marries" the Commanche and ... leaves for Oregon, telling her new husband she'll be back in the spring, shouting her love for him as she departs (so much for her broken heart from the loss of the cowboy). How is she making the return trip -- alone?? It seems as if Taylor Sheridan envisions Elsa as a WonderWoman of the Plains -- outriding Commanche warriors, galloping off to battle cattle rustlers, killing a buffalo with a first shot the first time she's ever hunted them, and then rides off at the end wearing the vest her husband gave her with nothing underneath because, you know, she's a warrior now. 

We started watching this show with hopes for a realistic portrayal but now we watch it to laugh at the unrealistic content, inconsistencies and poor continuity -- in this episode Elsa wears a coat to the Commanche camp, leaves without wearing it, the next scene she's wearing the coat again.

 

[SG429]

I'm guessing the immigrants were all, like, "what a drama queen" in that last scene.

[Moviesnob]

I'm normally all in for romance, but I'm not enjoying it in these latest episodes. I get this is all from Elsa's POV, so we get what's at the forefront of her mind, but I'd love to have more focus on the trip and less on Elsa's flurry of romances. I know things moved fast back then, and people often settled down quickly, but it's just. A lot. I did love her dad's comment of "at her rate, she'll have moved on by Nebraska."

How many eps does this season have? I'm not really feeling a natural ending point anytime soon for this season.

[Affogato]

Elsa is really not a strong character, she is barely a character at all. Real characters don't learn how to ride, rope cattle, shoot immediately; real characters have struggles, fall off their horses and make mistakes.

To me, she is more like a landscape that occasionally monologues, telling you what to think about it.

to put it another way, I've read that sometimes men feel women don't have to make a 'heroes journey' because they are already there. They have it already and are essentially aspirational (I think this means the men can put them on a pedestal and try to be good enough for them). I think Elsa is set up kind of like this.

Anyway, I'm not getting a clear idea that she is a person, what she actually wants, who she actually loves, etc, and it is beginning to weaken the story for me. Some of the men, Shea in particular, are excellent characters and even Dutton is getting there, I think,  but Elsa and her mother and the immigrants are pretty flat. So far, this is a man's story, in my opinion and Elsa is kind of a male fantasy. In a western this isn't, um, surprising, I guess, but it has been a while since I've watched anything in this genre. May not have changed much!

[mojoween]

Taylor said that he is trying to be authentic, but Shea deferring to Thomas and Sam, and Elsa doing everything with the men, feels a little too 2022.  I know abolitionists and progressives existed in 1883, but it feels doubtful there would be so many in the same place.

Elsa wearing a woven sleeveless top while the men are wearing six shirts and two coats each is ok sure.

[aqusdealer]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:08 AM, NeenerNeener said:

It looks like "1883" could stretch for several actual years because it's almost the end of the 1st season and these folks are a long way from being settled anywhere. I'm not sure I'm going to make it through a second season if it's just more of this.

My thoughts exactly. I was thinking that there is a lot to squeeze in if they have to cross a lot of ground in Winter and then actually get to Oregon. I found this last episode pretty boring and sort of a waste of time. I'm also getting tired of Elsas husky voiced narratives.

[mythoughtis]

3 hours ago, mojoween said:

Taylor said that he is trying to be authentic, but Shea deferring to Thomas and Sam, and Elsa doing everything with the men, feels a little too 2022.  I know abolitionists and progressives existed in 1883, but it feels doubtful there would be so many in the same place.

Elsa wearing a woven sleeveless top while the men are wearing six shirts and two coats each is ok sure.

Yes.  None of the immigrant women, nor her mother, behave as she does.   
In terms of her vest, none of the Native American women women n the episode were dressed  that way.  It’s October ( Shea said so), so it’s not warm enough to do that either.  

  

 

[LadyIrony]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:19 AM, cdnalor said:

Elsa telling her mother she's an adult because she's 18 sounds like an error.  I'm pretty sure the age of majority in the US was 21 back then.  Of course, where they are now, there's no one to enforce that or any reason to.

In the scene where Elsa and her mother are by the river bank washing herself, I found Elsa coming off as rather haughty and pretentious.  I don't know if it was meant to be played that way but I suppose it tracks for a headstrong teenager who thinks she has it all figured out.

I'm curious to see how this story loops back to the massacre scene at the start of ep 1.

I'm pretty sure Elsa would be pushing old maid age already! They got married young back then. 

The bathing scene looked like a Playboy video! I keep imagining the director saying "Ok, just a little more boob, let the shawl drop down, just a little more.. ok... more.. oh, no nipple huh? Ok well most of your boob is exposed. That will do" 

Anyone else notice how Elsa looks far more modern now? Her whole demeanor and face has changed. 

On 2/14/2022 at 10:29 AM, Affogato said:

Shea’s goodbyes to Goodnight were well done. His last trail.
 

I liked the interactions around the wagon train’s choosing direction,  although I don’t know why the immigrants would care really. Closer and same general terrain to farm in? I guess they are losing faith in Shea as a leader. 

why is elsa going with them? Job as a cowboy?

she has a dress left to wear. Maybe a connection to the first scene? 

The immigrants seem keen for the free land in Oregon. Maybe they spent all their money shipping unnecessary goods from Europe and spent what was left on wagons to cart it and Shea's guidance?

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by LadyIrony

[LadyIrony]

Rodeo Barbie (Elsa) is killing this show for me. She is so unauthentic to the era. The sleeveless tops, now she has the Native American top which is also sleeveless and yet non of the Tribes women wear anything similar. When she was riding out wearing it, my mind drifted to Deanery's on Game of Thrones, it's like they are trying to create some kind of Goddess image out of her. And yet Deanery's herself was a terrible leader. Go figure. 

As another poster mentioned everything comes easy to her. She shoots a buffalo with a pistol first shot, no near miss. She can lasso mustangs. It is just too easy and it cheapens any merit she might possibly have. I wonder if will end up discovering that she actually stepped through a portal from 2022 and ended up in 1883!

I find myself more interested in the immigrants, Shea and the men on the show. Elsa is becoming a caricature. I couldn't help but notice she even looks different now. More coiffured and modern. She has lost that little bit of pioneer woman roughness she had, not that she ever looked like she had much. 

I am not sure how much longer I can deal with the show.

Can anyone tell me if the bullet belt Thomas wears around him contain bullets that even fit his rifle? They look too big?

@Rorysmom I don't think this show is a great western. The Comanche were the most terrifying tribe around, they were brutal to other Native tribes as well. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html#:~:text=Not only were the Comanche,'Lords of the Plains'.&text=The key to the Comanche's,more skilfully than the Apaches.

[Rorysmom]

2 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

Rodeo Barbie (Elsa) is killing this show for me. She is so unauthentic to the era. The sleeveless tops, now she has the Native American top which is also sleeveless and yet non of the Tribes women wear anything similar. When she was riding out wearing it, my mind drifted to Deanery's on Game of Thrones, it's like they are trying to create some kind of Goddess image out of her. And yet Deanery's herself was a terrible leader. Go figure. 

As another poster mentioned everything comes easy to her. She shoots a buffalo with a pistol first shot, no near miss. She can lasso mustangs. It is just too easy and it cheapens any merit she might possibly have. I wonder if will end up discovering that she actually stepped through a portal from 2022 and ended up in 1883!

I find myself more interested in the immigrants, Shea and the men on the show. Elsa is becoming a caricature. I couldn't help but notice she even looks different now. More coiffured and modern. She has lost that little bit of pioneer woman roughness she had, not that she ever looked like she had much. 

I am not sure how much longer I can deal with the show.

Can anyone tell me if the bullet belt Thomas wears around him contain bullets that even fit his rifle? They look too big?

@Rorysmom I don't think this show is a great western. The Comanche were the most terrifying tribe around, they were brutal to other Native tribes as well. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html#:~:text=Not only were the Comanche,'Lords of the Plains'.&text=The key to the Comanche's,more skilfully than the Apaches.

Thank you for sharing. I don't have an idealized notion of indigenous people. I can believe they were just as capable of cruelty as any other human. Not to say this article isn't accurate, but I will read up on them (and all of the indigenous populations they will encounter). 

Reading this reminds me of the conversation between Sam and James. Sam is explaining that he can't leave because he needs to help his tribe fight back against the white man taking it. James says something to the effect of I'm not taking; I'm just passing through. And it's like he can't or doesn't want to understand the gravity of even his, in his eyes, most passive encroachment. Every new white man, woman, child, family, is a threat to the existence of the indigenous who are already there and are being systematically marginalized and "savagized" by the U.S. government. They are being dehumanized so that the government can more easily commit inhumane crimes against them.

Same for Blacks, and I want to see accuracy in that, too. 

Even though I thought this episode was wonderful and beautifully done, I still do also believe that Elsa's life is fantastical. Part of me gets that Taylor Sheridan is having Elsa's character do some story work that I am still parsing. It is not to the point that it is ruining or bringing down the show for me. 

[NeenerNeener]

4 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

The immigrants seem keen for the free land in Oregon. Maybe they spent all their money shipping unnecessary goods from Europe and spent what was left on wagons to cart it and Shea's guidance?

Yep, that's the difference between pushing on to Oregon and settling in Denver. The land in Oregon is free; they will have to pay for any land they want to settle on in Denver and they're pretty much broke right now. Josef told Shea they don't want to have to work for wages from someone else.

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

I'm pretty sure Elsa would be pushing old maid age already! They got married young back then. 

The bathing seen looked like a Playboy video! I keep imagining the director saying "Ok, just a little more boob, let the shawl drop down, just a little more.. ok... more.. oh, no nipple huh? Ok well most of your boob is exposed. That will do" 

Anyone else notice how Elsa looks far more modern now? Her whole demeanor and face has changed. 

The immigrants seem keen for the free land in Oregon. Maybe they spent all their money shipping unnecessary goods from Europe and spent what was left on wagons to cart it and Shea's guidance?

 

Yes i should have thought of that. How they got hundreds in the first place is amazing. It gives credence to the skilled workman group, blacksmith and carpenter. 

[TipseyGirl]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:43 PM, SG429 said:

I'm guessing the immigrants were all, like, "what a drama queen" in that last scene.

I actually laughed at that scene (and your comment). Probably not the reaction the show runners were going for. All that chest beating and screaming. I mean, really? And the look on Sam's face was kind of "the fuck?". Then she rides up to the others and is all "Hey, lets go, we're losing time." 

[LadyIrony]

10 hours ago, Rorysmom said:

Thank you for sharing. I don't have an idealized notion of indigenous people. I can believe they were just as capable of cruelty as any other human. Not to say this article isn't accurate, but I will read up on them (and all of the indigenous populations they will encounter). 

Reading this reminds me of the conversation between Sam and James. Sam is explaining that he can't leave because he needs to help his tribe fight back against the white man taking it. James says something to the effect of I'm not taking; I'm just passing through. And it's like he can't or doesn't want to understand the gravity of even his, in his eyes, most passive encroachment. Every new white man, woman, child, family, is a threat to the existence of the indigenous who are already there and are being systematically marginalized and "savagized" by the U.S. government. They are being dehumanized so that the government can more easily commit inhumane crimes against them.

Same for Blacks, and I want to see accuracy in that, too. 

Even though I thought this episode was wonderful and beautifully done, I still do also believe that Elsa's life is fantastical. Part of me gets that Taylor Sheridan is having Elsa's character do some story work that I am still parsing. It is not to the point that it is ruining or bringing down the show for me. 

Fair enough. I have just noticed with this show and many others there is this idea that they were innocents who never harmed a fly until pushed by the white man. When they were at war with each other for centuries before hand.

I see it as he probably did understand but he is just as stuck as the Natives are. Not sure if James was born in the USA or came over in his youth but either way there is no going back to Europe for him. He just has to push on and life is simple for him as it is for everyone else of the era. There isn't time to ponder rights and wrongs. 

I do find it odd that Thomas is accepted as readily as he is and the Gypsy woman and Immigrants, they have no questions/curiosity for him? Surely he would be one of the first black men they have ever seen? It is all too simple.

Elsa is out of control just like Beth on Yellowstone. She has become boring. She just shoots a buffalo with a pistol on horseback first shot? Sheridan seems to want her to be some kind of superwoman and it is ruining it for me.

 

9 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

Yep, that's the difference between pushing on to Oregon and settling in Denver. The land in Oregon is free; they will have to pay for any land they want to settle on in Denver and they're pretty much broke right now. Josef told Shea they don't want to have to work for wages from someone else.

Yep, but do they think they will just get this land and then start planting seeds? What are they going to do to buy tools, seeds etc? They have lost just about everything they brought with them now. Chances are they will still need to earn some money until they get established and their crops start growing for sale. 

6 hours ago, TipseyGirl said:

I actually laughed at that scene (and your comment). Probably not the reaction the show runners were going for. All that chest beating and screaming. I mean, really? And the look on Sam's face was kind of "the fuck?". Then she rides up to the others and is all "Hey, lets go, we're losing time." 

The way James/McGraw looks at her sometimes it's like "Yeah ok, the writer has made you a wonder woman and we have to believe you are in charge". It was funny the way she carried on she is becoming as tiresome as Beth on Yellowstone. 

[Rorysmom]

1 hour ago, LadyIrony said:

Fair enough. I have just noticed with this show and many others there is this idea that they were innocents who never harmed a fly until pushed by the white man. When they were at war with each other for centuries before hand.

I see it as he probably did understand but he is just as stuck as the Natives are. Not sure if James was born in the USA or came over in his youth but either way there is no going back to Europe for him. He just has to push on and life is simple for him as it is for everyone else of the era. There isn't time to ponder rights and wrongs. 

I do find it odd that Thomas is accepted as readily as he is and the Gypsy woman and Immigrants, they have no questions/curiosity for him? Surely he would be one of the first black men they have ever seen? It is all too simple.

Elsa is out of control just like Beth on Yellowstone. She has become boring. She just shoots a buffalo with a pistol on horseback first shot? Sheridan seems to want her to be some kind of superwoman and it is ruining it for me.

 

Yep, but do they think they will just get this land and then start planting seeds? What are they going to do to buy tools, seeds etc? They have lost just about everything they brought with them now. Chances are they will still need to earn some money until they get established and their crops start growing for sale. 

The way James/McGraw looks at her sometimes it's like "Yeah ok, the writer has made you a wonder woman and we have to believe you are in charge". It was funny the way she carried on she is becoming as tiresome as Beth on Yellowstone. 

I agree with a lot of your post. James' history. Thomas' story arc.

Tiresome Beth. The throughline from Elsa to Beth is like a hammer to the head. 

It will be interesting to see if Taylor Sheridan writes Elsa into the one-dimensional corner he has with Beth (and to be fair, many of the men).

His writing for strong women starts strong then veers into inauthenticity and idealized caricature. And I hate saying that because he is putting out great work and stories.

The one thing that 1883 makes crystal clear is why John Dutton will not be moved to sell any of his land. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rorysmom

[LadyIrony]

10 hours ago, Rorysmom said:

I agree with a lot of your post. James' history. Thomas' story arc.

Tiresome Beth. The throughline from Elsa to Beth is like a hammer to the head. 

It will be interesting to see if Taylor Sheridan writes Elsa into the one-dimensional corner he has with Beth (and to be fair, many of the men).

His writing for strong women starts strong then veers into inauthenticity and idealized caricature. And I hate saying that because he is putting out great work and stories.

The one thing that 1883 makes crystal clear is why John Dutton will not be moved to sell any of his land. 

What gets me about Elsa and Beth is how pretend they are with their tough girl acts. Both women go to pieces at the drop of a hat and both are just highly emotional. Elsa you can at least put down to age but Beth although looking well into her 40's is actually supposed to be mid 30's. Old enough to know better.

I think it's too late, Elsa is already one dimensional. 

If you haven't already seen it I recommend the documentary series The Men Who Built America: Frontier's Men https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6251076/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_28

I'm not American and always wondered what it was about the ideal of freedom that is important to Americans. The series explained a lot about early American history and as you said it also explains why Dutton won't give up the land. Once it's gone, it's gone for good.

[Rorysmom]

5 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

What gets me about Elsa and Beth is how pretend they are with their tough girl acts. Both women go to pieces at the drop of a hat and both are just highly emotional. Elsa you can at least put down to age but Beth although looking well into her 40's is actually supposed to be mid 30's. Old enough to know better.

I think it's too late, Elsa is already one dimensional. 

If you haven't already seen it I recommend the documentary series The Men Who Built America: Frontier's Men https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6251076/?ref_=nm_flmg_prd_28

I'm not American and always wondered what it was about the ideal of freedom that is important to Americans. The series explained a lot about early American history and as you said it also explains why Dutton won't give up the land. Once it's gone, it's gone for good.

Thank you. I love a docuseries about just as much as I do a Western. 😊

The idea of freedom, starting over, leaving the conventions that held you back for generations behind is so appealing. The ads of what awaited them in the "New World" didn't always tell the truth (of course), and each wave of settlers faced pretty harsh conditions that were probably only just a hair better whence they came only because they were free and the caste system didn't exist in the way it did back home.

This very idea of U.S. freedom has taken shape and been glamorized, retold, and used to marginalize, subjugate the go-to groups of Blacks and indigenous people since its beginnings, and uphold self-inflicted, self-destructive laws and constructs that actually don't benefit the immigrants either. Insert a lot of negative adjectives here.

So I get each individual settler saying, "Hey, I'm just trying to get mine." But the travesty of that is that it happened at the terrible, terrible, heinous cost of Africans being enslaved for hundreds of years (and behind the 8 ball for many hundreds more) and the near annihilation of indigenous people who are now relegated to exponentially less of this land and life, if their tribes still even exist at all. All this done WITH the full force of a government with its own agenda for keeping its power. Through laws. Through "hearts and minds" campaigns. And so on. I've veered a touch, but it was necessary. 😊 Back on track to talking about sleeveless Elsa. 😂

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rorysmom

[CountryGirl]

Possibly UO, but I am still very much enjoying the show and that includes Elsa being the main focus of the series. It's so rare that we see a teenage girl coming of age as the center of a story set during a time period that could have easily relegated her to the background of the male foreground. So much so that while I can agree that there is a bit of Ayla-ism about her, it's so refreshing to see her driving the story much as she helps to drive the cattle. Even the voice-overs don't grate as it's her voice and her story that are being told and she's not just telling her story, but that of the journey and the others along for the ride. MH is annoyed by them at this point and I called him out on it and asked, rhetorically of course, if the voice-overs were coming from say, Sam Elliot, would he be rolling his eyes and if not, why. I mean, of course, I'd love some Sam voice-over, too, as he is one of my favorite actors, but I made my point. I think of these as later-years Elsa who is reflecting back on this journey with both the wide-eyed gaze of the girl she once was and the wisdom of years gained since those wild days.

I also am loving the story with her and Sam. The chemistry between them far surpasses anything she had with Ennis and I would argue that with Ennis, she was still a girl. With Sam, she has stepped fully into womanhood and forging her own path with him. 

These little moments between them, the few bright spots in so much loss and pain, have truly cemented this series as one of my favorites.

They are a truly beautiful couple and I am so glad to be seeing several different cultures and perspectives represented in this show. And while the white woman/Native American man real-life relationships were certainly more of a rarity than say the white man/Native American woman relationships/marriages (which were tolerated more because frontier men have slim pickings after all), they did happen more than just in Cassie Edwards' paperback novels and I learned about several such couples back in my American Indian history courses in college.

I would like to see more of the immigrants and their stories and learn more about Thomas' background, including how he and Shea came to know each other. 

I loved watching the Shea and James relationship shift and ego/pride set aside for the greater good.

The Shea/Elsa friendship (so unlikely but yet so right) is still another wonderful development.

The parting scenes with Sam and Elsa were so heartfelt to me and reminded me of the parting of rivals-at-first, but then close friends, John Dunbar and Wind In His Hair in Dances With Wolves.

In short, I'm still very all in on this show and am so glad we are going to get at least one more season.

[blackwing]

Two episodes left, and I'm pretty sure they were in Kansas this episode.  There was some mention that Fort Casper (which I assume became the city in Wyoming) was a day's away or something like that.  How are they going to get to Oregon by season's end?  My concern is that they aren't going to get there.  I see the show has been renewed for Season 2.  Was Sheridan all but guaranteed a Season 2 so didn't feel the pressure of telling a complete story in one season?  If the season ends with them still on the road, it will be extremely disappointing.

Did I hear Margaret correctly?  When Margaret was telling Elsa how she herself knows hardship, she said she worked a sharecropper farm for three years while James was in prison and she was pregnant with Elsa.  Elsa asks her how old she was and she says 17.  Say what?!?!  Elsa is 18 so are we seriously expected to believe that Margaret is only 35 or 36 years old?  I know times were tough back then and the times aged people more quickly, but there is absolutely no way we can be expected to believe that 50+ year old Faith Hill is playing a 35 year old.  She looked really old and tired this episode.  Which, given the circumstances, is not surprising.  But there is no way I can believe that Margaret is 35.  45, yes.  35, no way.

I wish we would be given more backstory on Sam.  How often has he met Shea and Thomas on the trail?  How did he learn English?  Why does he speak perfect English with almost no accent?  How come nobody else in his tribe speaks English as well as him?  If Shea or somebody taught him, why wouldn't they have taught others?

This is the first episode this season where I have felt like I have started to lose interest.  The comment threads throughout the season always had some expressing that a dislike of Elsa, but I never really felt dislike for her.  Until this episode.  

She is acting way too modern.  I particularly hate the "Lightning with the Yellow Hair" moniker considering she is obviously a bottle blonde.   Her dark eyebrows and pit hair give it away.   Did women dye their hair bottle blonde like that in the 1800s?  I know hair dye has been around since at least ancient Egypt, but for some reason I didn't think it became really popular (especially the blonde dye) until the age of movies in the 1920s/1930s and people wanted to look like certain movie stars.   Where is Elsa getting her hair dye on the road?  It seemed like this episode in particular, she somewhere found a salon to give her a dye and cut.  Her hair looked even more blonder and sleeker than it did in the previous episodes.

I don't think 18 year olds in the 1880s would talk this way to their mother.  Her primary role would have been to help her mom take care of her little brother.  But I suppose as Margaret says, James basically turned Elsa into a son, which I guess is supposed to explain her skill at riding and cowboying and her penchant for wearing men's clothes.

I was cringing in embarrassment when she was whooping and hollering.  I'm sure the actress thought she was being powerful and that she really "brought it", but it was awful.  I also don't understand... she "married" Sam but then immediately left him because she wanted to go to Oregon with her family.  Then says she is going to come back in the spring when the flowers bloom.  How?  It has taken all of these people months of travel and they may not even be halfway there.  Is she just going to get on a horse and ride solo all the way back to Kansas?  What is she going to do for food and safety?  Wouldn't it make more sense for Sam to come with a team of guys and escort her back?

I was actually hoping she would stay in Kansas so we didn't have to see her anymore.  Interesting that when the series started, I was very invested in her fate, and wanted to see if/how she survives that attack in episode 1.  Now I find myself hoping that she died, her voiceover narration is her narrating the events from heaven or whatnot.

On 2/14/2022 at 5:50 PM, mojoween said:

Taylor said that he is trying to be authentic, but Shea deferring to Thomas and Sam, and Elsa doing everything with the men, feels a little too 2022.  I know abolitionists and progressives existed in 1883, but it feels doubtful there would be so many in the same place.

Elsa wearing a woven sleeveless top while the men are wearing six shirts and two coats each is ok sure.

 

On 2/15/2022 at 4:57 AM, LadyIrony said:

Rodeo Barbie (Elsa) is killing this show for me. She is so unauthentic to the era. The sleeveless tops, now she has the Native American top which is also sleeveless and yet non of the Tribes women wear anything similar. When she was riding out wearing it, my mind drifted to Deanery's on Game of Thrones, it's like they are trying to create some kind of Goddess image out of her. And yet Deanery's herself was a terrible leader. Go figure. 

As another poster mentioned everything comes easy to her. She shoots a buffalo with a pistol first shot, no near miss. She can lasso mustangs. It is just too easy and it cheapens any merit she might possibly have. I wonder if will end up discovering that she actually stepped through a portal from 2022 and ended up in 1883!

Yep, this pretty much sums up how I feel.  I don't care for Elsa as the main character.  I would much prefer if there was more focus on Margaret.

[CountryGirl]

Plenty of natural blondes have darker hair elsewhere, eyebrows included. I'm one of them. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 

Did I hear Margaret correctly?  When Margaret was telling Elsa how she herself knows hardship, she said she worked a sharecropper farm for three years while James was in prison and she was pregnant with Elsa.  Elsa asks her how old she was and she says 17.  Say what?!?!  Elsa is 18 so are we seriously expected to believe that Margaret is only 35 or 36 years old?  I know times were tough back then and the times aged people more quickly, but there is absolutely no way we can be expected to believe that 50+ year old Faith Hill is playing a 35 year old.  She looked really old and tired this episode.  Which, given the circumstances, is not surprising.  But there is no way I can believe that Margaret is 35.  45, yes.  35, no way.

 

I don't see you going on about how Sam Eliot is playing a much younger man, though.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

 

She is acting way too modern.  I particularly hate the "Lightning with the Yellow Hair" moniker considering she is obviously a bottle blonde.   Her dark eyebrows and pit hair give it away.   Did women dye their hair bottle blonde like that in the 1800s?  I know hair dye has been around since at least ancient Egypt, but for some reason I didn't think it became really popular (especially the blonde dye) until the age of movies in the 1920s/1930s and people wanted to look like certain movie stars.   Where is Elsa getting her hair dye on the road?  It seemed like this episode in particular, she somewhere found a salon to give her a dye and cut.  Her hair looked even more blonder and sleeker than it did in the previous episodes.

I don't think 18 year olds in the 1880s would talk this way to their mother.  Her primary role would have been to help her mom take care of her little brother.  But I suppose as Margaret says, James basically turned Elsa into a son, which I guess is supposed to explain her skill at riding and cowboying and her penchant for wearing men's clothes.

 

 I have relatives who have hair that goes from dark brown to platinum in the sun fairly quickly and her armpits probably don't get the same exposure to the sun.  So, yes, her hair would be blonder since she stopped wearing the hat. Good observation. Would that attention to detail extended to other parts of the story!

It is pretty easy to find information on some of the women of that time who didn't just watch their little brothers. Here's a starter:  https://nationalcowboymuseum.org/explore/just-housewife-changing-roles-women-west/

 

[blackwing]

8 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I don't see you going on about how Sam Eliot is playing a much younger man, though

I did though, there was some questions about how old he is in one of the earlier episode threads, I commented that he is probably close to 80 and his character on this show easily looks 70 but the opening episode established that he had a daughter that was probably 20 or so at death.  Others commented that I suppose we have to accept that he married later in life and had a kid at 50.  Yellowstone has always been good about giving us the exact ages of most of the main characters, I'm curious if they can pin down the age of both Shea and James.  James was in the Civil War as a grown adult, presumably he was older than Margaret's 17 in 1865 but I wonder by how much.

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I did though, there was some questions about how old he is in one of the earlier episode threads, I commented that he is probably close to 80 and his character on this show easily looks 70 but the opening episode established that he had a daughter that was probably 20 or so at death.  Others commented that I suppose we have to accept that he married later in life and had a kid at 50.  Yellowstone has always been good about giving us the exact ages of most of the main characters, I'm curious if they can pin down the age of both Shea and James.  James was in the Civil War as a grown adult, presumably he was older than Margaret's 17 in 1865 but I wonder by how much.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/grant-kids/

The official recruiting age for the Union was 18, the confederacy didn't set an age, and PBS at least says that at least 20 percent of the soldiers on both sides were younger. 

I had thought she also worked as a nurse during the civil war, so I wonder how that works into it. 

[CountryGirl]

Margaret was a nurse for some portion of the war. I imagine caring for men who were wounded, maimed, often missing limbs, with many dying (more from disease than their wounds) as well as her husband being in a POW camp for over 2.5 years as Antietam was in September of 1962 and raising a young child alone probably aged her a lot quicker. 

[Haleth]

That girl is going to be incredibly sunburned by the end of the day.

Rodeo Barbie. Ha!

Edited February 16, 2022 by Haleth

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

That girl is going to be incredibly sunburned by the end of the day. 

It bothers me watching her. She is looking more and more burned. 

[LadyIrony]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

Two episodes left, and I'm pretty sure they were in Kansas this episode.  There was some mention that Fort Casper (which I assume became the city in Wyoming) was a day's away or something like that.  How are they going to get to Oregon by season's end?  My concern is that they aren't going to get there.  I see the show has been renewed for Season 2.  Was Sheridan all but guaranteed a Season 2 so didn't feel the pressure of telling a complete story in one season?  If the season ends with them still on the road, it will be extremely disappointing.

Did I hear Margaret correctly?  When Margaret was telling Elsa how she herself knows hardship, she said she worked a sharecropper farm for three years while James was in prison and she was pregnant with Elsa.  Elsa asks her how old she was and she says 17.  Say what?!?!  Elsa is 18 so are we seriously expected to believe that Margaret is only 35 or 36 years old?  I know times were tough back then and the times aged people more quickly, but there is absolutely no way we can be expected to believe that 50+ year old Faith Hill is playing a 35 year old.  She looked really old and tired this episode.  Which, given the circumstances, is not surprising.  But there is no way I can believe that Margaret is 35.  45, yes.  35, no way.

I wish we would be given more backstory on Sam.  How often has he met Shea and Thomas on the trail?  How did he learn English?  Why does he speak perfect English with almost no accent?  How come nobody else in his tribe speaks English as well as him?  If Shea or somebody taught him, why wouldn't they have taught others?

This is the first episode this season where I have felt like I have started to lose interest.  The comment threads throughout the season always had some expressing that a dislike of Elsa, but I never really felt dislike for her.  Until this episode.  

She is acting way too modern.  I particularly hate the "Lightning with the Yellow Hair" moniker considering she is obviously a bottle blonde.   Her dark eyebrows and pit hair give it away.   Did women dye their hair bottle blonde like that in the 1800s?  I know hair dye has been around since at least ancient Egypt, but for some reason I didn't think it became really popular (especially the blonde dye) until the age of movies in the 1920s/1930s and people wanted to look like certain movie stars.   Where is Elsa getting her hair dye on the road?  It seemed like this episode in particular, she somewhere found a salon to give her a dye and cut.  Her hair looked even more blonder and sleeker than it did in the previous episodes.

I don't think 18 year olds in the 1880s would talk this way to their mother.  Her primary role would have been to help her mom take care of her little brother.  But I suppose as Margaret says, James basically turned Elsa into a son, which I guess is supposed to explain her skill at riding and cowboying and her penchant for wearing men's clothes.

I was cringing in embarrassment when she was whooping and hollering.  I'm sure the actress thought she was being powerful and that she really "brought it", but it was awful.  I also don't understand... she "married" Sam but then immediately left him because she wanted to go to Oregon with her family.  Then says she is going to come back in the spring when the flowers bloom.  How?  It has taken all of these people months of travel and they may not even be halfway there.  Is she just going to get on a horse and ride solo all the way back to Kansas?  What is she going to do for food and safety?  Wouldn't it make more sense for Sam to come with a team of guys and escort her back?

I was actually hoping she would stay in Kansas so we didn't have to see her anymore.  Interesting that when the series started, I was very invested in her fate, and wanted to see if/how she survives that attack in episode 1.  Now I find myself hoping that she died, her voiceover narration is her narrating the events from heaven or whatnot.

I wish they would let us know where the group are at times. Thinking about the twister the other ep it makes sense, Kansas, twisters, Wizard of Oz, of course. It is also a little confusing, which group are we focusing on. It seems they are now Dutton's group. We also know the Dutton ranch is in Montana, just looking it up now, there is a fair distance between Oregon and Montana? So it will be interesting to see what happens. 

I find Sheridan casts people who are way too old for their intended roles and it becomes confusing. Faith Hill is in her mid 50's and looks it, in fact she looks older. Beth on Yellowstone looks older than the 35 she is supposed to be and acts more like a 14 year old. 

I'd say Sam made a conscious effort to learn more about his enemy and learned by trading with the white men who pass through. His tribe seem to have a business level of civility with the right foreigners who pass by. He also doesn't seem to care about diluting his bloodlines by marrying Elsa. I wondered if he is half caste himself as Elsa seemed very readily accepted which I don't buy. 

Women did dye their hair back then but they used natural substances which didn't last long. Also would they have bothered with that while on a trail? I think we are meant to believe that Elsa is natural blonde just as we are meant to believe Margaret is 35 years old. It's a little too much disbelief to suspend for me. 

I don't believe she would talk to her parents like that either nor do I believe her parents would be ok with her sleeping around the way she does. She has just left her new husband now too, how many others will she bed along the way? And why is Sam ok with his new wife just upping and leaving? Not much of a Patriarchy for a time when men supposedly ruled. And you don't think the Immigrants are going to gossip about her when they hit a town? And the cowboys riding with them? Elsa's rep would be worth less than the dirt they trample over.

Does Elsa realize that as far as her own culture goes she is not married at all? And yes, how is she going to find Sam again? Especially given Sam's tribe as living on borrowed time and could be wiped out or moved to a reservation at any second. Not to mention outlaws who would see a blonde skinny woman riding solo and see her as easy pickings. 

I was also hoping they would ditch Elsa but it seems Sheridan thinks people watch for her so she will be around for a while it seems. The question is, will I?!

 

8 hours ago, Rorysmom said:

Thank you. I love a docuseries about just as much as I do a Western. 😊

The idea of freedom, starting over, leaving the conventions that held you back for generations behind is so appealing. The ads of what awaited them in the "New World" didn't always tell the truth (of course), and each wave of settlers faced pretty harsh conditions that were probably only just a hair better whence they came only because they were free and the caste system didn't exist in the way it did back home.

This very idea of U.S. freedom has taken shape and been glamorized, retold, and used to marginalize, subjugate the go-to groups of Blacks and indigenous people since its beginnings, and uphold self-inflicted, self-destructive laws and constructs that actually don't benefit the immigrants either. Insert a lot of negative adjectives here.

So I get each individual settler saying, "Hey, I'm just trying to get mine." But the travesty of that is that it happened at the terrible, terrible, heinous cost of Africans being enslaved for hundreds of years (and behind the 8 ball for many hundreds more) and the near annihilation of indigenous people who are now relegated to exponentially less of this land and life, if their tribes still even exist at all. All this done WITH the full force of a government with its own agenda for keeping its power. Through laws. Through "hearts and minds" campaigns. And so on. I've veered a touch, but it was necessary. 😊 Back on track to talking about sleeveless Elsa. 😂

It's a great docu series and given DiCaprio produces it, at times it is more like a movie. 

In Europe at the time all the land was already owned by Royalty and various nobility. So the peasants got to work the farms but never owned anything. They were always at the mercy of their overlords. It speaks a lot as to why they took such a risk to travel to America and then wanted freedom. It also explains why the Immigrants want the free land. Not only do they lack money they no longer want to work for someone else.

I would imagine it would be a drawing a line in the sand moment for them.

Slavery was a thing in many cultures and still is in some. Not saying it is a good thing but it happened. Many of those slaves were sold initially by opposing African tribes. So like with the Native Americans who lacked solidarity they were easily defeated by Europeans who had a united goal and culture. 

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Margaret was a nurse for some portion of the war. I imagine caring for men who were wounded, maimed, often missing limbs, with many dying (more from disease than their wounds) as well as her husband being in a POW camp for over 2.5 years as Antietam was in September of 1962 and raising a young child alone probably aged her a lot quicker. 

Fair enough but Faith is 54 and looks 64 by today's standards. Sheridan has a thing for casting much older people in roles that are meant for people 10-20 years younger. In Yellowstone Beth is meant to be mid 30's yet looks late 40's as per the actresses age. I find it confusing given Beth acts like a child. Costner's character is meant to be mid 50's but looks late 60's plus. 

I find the poor casting cheapens the two shows. Sam Elliott gets away with it though, he looks rather good for 77.

Edited February 16, 2022 by LadyIrony

[mythoughtis]

There’s a problem with Margaret’s story.   It’s now 1883. .Elsa was 17 when the episodes started, and stated she was 18 in this episode( October)  
1883-18 = 1865.  Which implies that Margaret gave birth in 1865, no later than October.  James spent 3 years in a Union POW camp.  He would have been released in April 1865.  April to October is 6 months,  not 9. 
Plus even if you want to fudge the months, Elsa was not conceived while waiting for James to be released.  in order for all this to all work, Elsa would need to have been conceived in 1862 before James was captured and Elsa would be 21 in this episode.   
 

Edited February 16, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Rorysmom]

16 hours ago, LadyIrony said:

Slavery was a thing in many cultures and still is in some. Not saying it is a good thing but it happened. Many of those slaves were sold initially by opposing African tribes. So like with the Native Americans who lacked solidarity they were easily defeated by Europeans who had a united goal and culture. 

Yes, people have been enslaving each other since the beginning of people. If we were watching a show about immigrants settling another country, I would not be comparing their slavery to the U.S.  Sure slavery happened. But I'm addressing it in the context of this show. The enslavement of Africans in the U.S. and its ramifications are the focus. 

The selling of Africans by other Africans is often pointed out to show that enslavement was a two-way street. I'm not saying you're doing it here, but it is often used as a redirection from what THIS *government* did. It is also very much overstated as if the selling of Africans by each other and the capturing of Africans by European countries were about equal. They were most certainly not. This discussion is actually a field of study; it's so complex and wide-ranging. So I won't try to break it down it here. But I didn't want to let this go by without addressing it.

Saying that indigenous people lacked solidarity to fight off the Europeans does not take into account 1) the differences among tribes and 2) the size of the U.S., and 3) the government's power.

Several European countries could fit into the size of my home state of Texas with room to spare. It simply is not plausible to think that multiple indigenous tribes spread out over the vastness of the U.S. could have gathered together to fight off an incessant stream of people, who were, again, backed by a *whole government* to go and settle the land no matter what.

And just like with African diaspora history and Black American history, there is much more to indigenous people history than this.

Lastly, the Europeans we've seen thus far do not have a united goal and culture. Each country's people came over for reasons specific to that country. When they got here, what they each had in common, again, was a government that wanted them here to settle a new land.

And they still fought each other. I saw Gangs of New York, LOL. Until, over time, they were able to assume a collective "white culture."

And plus, they were fighting each other over in Europe tribe to tribe, too! Just like they were doing at the beginning of this wagon train. So... 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Rorysmom

[rhygirl720]

I really enjoyed the mustang roundup but I'm a horse girl.

I really enjoy Elsa and Sam's interactions...lots of chemistry there.

My take on the dramatic scene at the end is Elsa likely knew she'd never see Sam again

There definitely were female frontier badass women...cowgirls, sharpshooters and even train robbers, but they chose an actress so ridiculously pretty that it doesn't ring authentic.  There are men out there stealing cattle and horses and robbing trains and anything else they want; A girl of that beauty draws a lot of attention. The idea of her riding back to Kansas on her own to meet Sam is utterly ridiculous. 

 

[Rebky]

47 minutes ago, rhygirl720 said:

I really enjoyed the mustang roundup but I'm a horse girl.

I really enjoy Elsa and Sam's interactions...lots of chemistry there.

My take on the dramatic scene at the end is Elsa likely knew she'd never see Sam again

There definitely were female frontier badass women...cowgirls, sharpshooters and even train robbers, but they chose an actress so ridiculously pretty that it doesn't ring authentic.  There are men out there stealing cattle and horses and robbing trains and anything else they want; A girl of that beauty draws a lot of attention. The idea of her riding back to Kansas on her own to meet Sam is utterly ridiculous. 

 

The only thing I have ever seen this actress in before is Young Sheldon. 

[Affogato]

17 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

There’s a problem with Margaret’s story.   It’s now 1883. .Elsa was 17 when the episodes started, and stated she was 18 in this episode( October)  
1883-18 = 1865.  Which implies that Margaret gave birth in 1865, no later than October.  James spent 3 years in a Union POW camp.  He would have been released in April 1865.  April to October is 6 months,  not 9. 
Plus even if you want to fudge the months, Elsa was not conceived while waiting for James to be released.  in order for all this to all work, Elsa would need to have been conceived in 1862 before James was captured and Elsa would be 21 in this episode.   
 

Are we sure 1883 isn‘t when the ranch is founded? 

[Artsda]

The joke about Elsa being in love with someone else by Nebraska is so true. lol Her revolving love life is turning this show soapish.

[Sunnykm]

On 2/17/2022 at 9:20 AM, Affogato said:

Are we sure 1883 isn‘t when the ranch is founded? 

I agree.  The Oregon Trail in 1883 was much more organized and outposts were more available than we are seeing on this show, so it makes sense to me that this show isn't set in 1883.  I have been wondering about this once they hit the trail.

[KAOS Agent]

4 hours ago, Sunnykm said:

The Oregon Trail in 1883 was much more organized and outposts were more available than we are seeing on this show, so it makes sense to me that this show isn't set in 1883.  I have been wondering about this once they hit the trail.

They aren't actually on the Oregon Trail.  They aren't even near it. They're heading to Fort Laramie to meet up with the trail, which is roughly 600 miles from their location. They were still in Oklahoma at the time of this episode. The time period has been better established based on the comments Sam made in the episode. He said his land was with Quanah Parker south of the Wichita Mountains. That's the reservation and they had been there since 1875.

There was also mention of Dakota/Arapahoe rumblings due to government lies and both were on separate reservations in the late 1870s and Sitting Bull returned from Canada and surrendered in 1881. They also discussed the use of barbed wire, which only started to come into widespread use in the mid to late 1870s. It may not be 1883, but it's way past the time that the Oregon Trail was in real use.

These people are in serious trouble at this point. They keep talking about the coming winter and said they'll get to Fort Laramie in October and be crossing the South Pass in the winter. This is absolutely and completely insane. It's a month from Fort Laramie to Fort Bridger in good weather and from there it's all mountain country. For context, the Donner Party left Fort Bridger in late July and that was considered very late.  This photo was taken the day after Labor Day 2020 and another round of nine inches hit that night. This wagon is sitting directly on the trail. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by KAOS Agent

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

They aren't actually on the Oregon Trail.  They aren't even near it. They're heading to Fort Laramie to meet up with the trail, which is roughly 600 miles from their location. They were still in Oklahoma at the time of this episode. The time period has been better established based on the comments Sam made in the episode. He said his land was with Quanah Parker south of the Wichita Mountains. That's the reservation and they had been there since 1875.

There was also mention of Dakota/Arapahoe rumblings due to government lies and both were on separate reservations in the late 1870s and Sitting Bull returned from Canada and surrendered in 1881. They also discussed the use of barbed wire, which only started to come into widespread use in the mid to late 1870s. It may not be 1883, but it's way past the time that the Oregon Trail was in real use.

These people are in serious trouble at this point. They keep talking about the coming winter and said they'll get to Fort Laramie in October and be crossing the South Pass in the winter. This is absolutely and completely insane. It's a month from Fort Laramie to Fort Bridger in good weather and from there it's all mountain country. For context, the Donner Party left Fort Bridger in late July and that was considered very late.  This photo was taken the day after Labor Day 2020 and another round of nine inches hit that night. This wagon is sitting directly on the trail. 

 

 

I think the idea is that it would be some time in 1880, making Margaret’s story of being pregnant feasible and making Elsa 18. She keeps in insisting on her age. 
 

If there are ten shows this season I don’t see how they can get anywhere near the future location of the dutton ranch. They are moving very slowly. 
 

 

[Sunnykm]

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

They aren't actually on the Oregon Trail.  They aren't even near it. They're heading to Fort Laramie to meet up with the trail, which is roughly 600 miles from their location. They were still in Oklahoma at the time of this episode. The time period has been better established based on the comments Sam made in the episode. He said his land was with Quanah Parker south of the Wichita Mountains. That's the reservation and they had been there since 1875.

There was also mention of Dakota/Arapahoe rumblings due to government lies and both were on separate reservations in the late 1870s and Sitting Bull returned from Canada and surrendered in 1881. They also discussed the use of barbed wire, which only started to come into widespread use in the mid to late 1870s. It may not be 1883, but it's way past the time that the Oregon Trail was in real use.

These people are in serious trouble at this point. They keep talking about the coming winter and said they'll get to Fort Laramie in October and be crossing the South Pass in the winter. This is absolutely and completely insane. It's a month from Fort Laramie to Fort Bridger in good weather and from there it's all mountain country. For context, the Donner Party left Fort Bridger in late July and that was considered very late.  This photo was taken the day after Labor Day 2020 and another round of nine inches hit that night. This wagon is sitting directly on the trail. 

 

 

Thank you for the context.  

It would seem the trail leading to the OT would be even more organized and settled than we are seeing??  Also I think the are moving way too slowly and won't make FL or Denver by winter??

[LadyIrony]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:38 PM, Rorysmom said:

Yes, people have been enslaving each other since the beginning of people. If we were watching a show about immigrants settling another country, I would not be comparing their slavery to the U.S.  Sure slavery happened. But I'm addressing it in the context of this show. The enslavement of Africans in the U.S. and its ramifications are the focus. 

The selling of Africans by other Africans is often pointed out to show that enslavement was a two-way street. I'm not saying you're doing it here, but it is often used as a redirection from what THIS *government* did. It is also very much overstated as if the selling of Africans by each other and the capturing of Africans by European countries were about equal. They were most certainly not. This discussion is actually a field of study; it's so complex and wide-ranging. So I won't try to break it down it here. But I didn't want to let this go by without addressing it.

Saying that indigenous people lacked solidarity to fight off the Europeans does not take into account 1) the differences among tribes and 2) the size of the U.S., and 3) the government's power.

Several European countries could fit into the size of my home state of Texas with room to spare. It simply is not plausible to think that multiple indigenous tribes spread out over the vastness of the U.S. could have gathered together to fight off an incessant stream of people, who were, again, backed by a *whole government* to go and settle the land no matter what.

And just like with African diaspora history and Black American history, there is much more to indigenous people history than this.

Lastly, the Europeans we've seen thus far do not have a united goal and culture. Each country's people came over for reasons specific to that country. When they got here, what they each had in common, again, was a government that wanted them here to settle a new land.

And they still fought each other. I saw Gangs of New York, LOL. Until, over time, they were able to assume a collective "white culture."

And plus, they were fighting each other over in Europe tribe to tribe, too! Just like they were doing at the beginning of this wagon train. So... 

It is a wide topic and not one that would be allowed to be discussed here properly. 

Europeans were also slaves when Europe was invaded by the Moors etc in the Middle East. History isn't kind and civilizations were built on the blood and suffering of others. In the end the Native Americans who were also fighting among themselves to take each others land etc did the same thing the Europeans did. They just lost and the Europeans won. 

They were beaten by an opponent that was far more advanced than they were. End of story really. 

And yes the Europeans also fought each other, on a country to country basis as well as sub groups. Again, it is just human nature sadly enough.

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, Sunnykm said:

Thank you for the context.  

It would seem the trail leading to the OT would be even more organized and settled than we are seeing??  Also I think the are moving way too slowly and won't make FL or Denver by winter??

 

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the idea is that it would be some time in 1880, making Margaret’s story of being pregnant feasible and making Elsa 18. She keeps in insisting on her age. 
 

If there are ten shows this season I don’t see how they can get anywhere near the future location of the dutton ranch. They are moving very slowly. 
 

 

They are moving very slowly. They seem to stop a lot, I figured they would be moving constantly during the day and only stop at night. Asides from allowing Elsa a chance for romance and heroics there seems little reason for their stopping most of the time too. 

On 2/19/2022 at 8:31 AM, Artsda said:

The joke about Elsa being in love with someone else by Nebraska is so true. lol Her revolving love life is turning this show soapish.

As far as I can tell her marriage to Sam wouldn't even be legal by American standards so she could easily forget him by the time she reaches the next town and meets the next guy. I find it hard to believe they will stop at Sam for her. 

I don't think I can stomach a Season 2 but will stick it out for this season. 

On 2/18/2022 at 2:15 AM, rhygirl720 said:

I really enjoyed the mustang roundup but I'm a horse girl.

I really enjoy Elsa and Sam's interactions...lots of chemistry there.

My take on the dramatic scene at the end is Elsa likely knew she'd never see Sam again

There definitely were female frontier badass women...cowgirls, sharpshooters and even train robbers, but they chose an actress so ridiculously pretty that it doesn't ring authentic.  There are men out there stealing cattle and horses and robbing trains and anything else they want; A girl of that beauty draws a lot of attention. The idea of her riding back to Kansas on her own to meet Sam is utterly ridiculous. 

 

There were female cowgirls, Annie Oakley, Calamity Jane to name two and women were tough back then, probably much tougher than they are now. My problem with Elsa is she just doesn't look the part. She is so skinny and weak looking. Then you have the dramatics and over the top emotions. 

We are talking about a time when women weren't taken seriously and she gives them little reason to take her seriously! I would be back handing her myself on a half hour basis! 

And yes, the way she acts, the way she dresses especially now in that colourful Indian garment that not even the Indian women are wearing. She would stand out far too much. In reality her parents would probably cover her hair or cut it short, muddy up her face a little! You would not want her riding around like some kind Princess. 

[mythoughtis]

In An episode of Yellowstone, we were given a 1883 commercial labeled 1893.  It was the story of James giving the Native Americans a calf  from his herd and allowing them to stay on his land to bury one of their elders.  ( the bones  of which were found in a later Yellowstone episode). 

There were two boys with James in that episode.   The elder of which looks no older than 15.  If that’s John, he needs to be 18 in 1893 to make this season  of the 1883 show set in 1880.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by mythoughtis

[UnikornRainbowz]

Mmmm, give me more Sam. I tuned in for Sam Elliott, but now I am watching for the native Sam, Lord still my heart.

 

AND Today I learned Taylor Sheridan was David Hale!!!!!!!

[millennium]

Elsa's ruined the show for me.   Thanks, Elsa.

She was smug to the point of open disrespect to her mother.   She reveled in being the center of attention.   She put herself ahead of everyone else in that wagon train.   It's hard to like somebody like that.

Then came that final scene with all the breast-beating and the cultural appropriation (kidding).   To quote the Hollywood caricature of Native Americans: "Ugh."

I don't know if Elsa is modeled on a historical figure (none I have ever heard of) but the whole situation seems extremely unlikely.   Any number of stills from that last scene would have been right at home on a paperback romance novel.

[LadyIrony]

19 hours ago, millennium said:

Elsa's ruined the show for me.   Thanks, Elsa.

She was smug to the point of open disrespect to her mother.   She reveled in being the center of attention.   She put herself ahead of everyone else in that wagon train.   It's hard to like somebody like that.

Then came that final scene with all the breast-beating and the cultural appropriation (kidding).   To quote the Hollywood caricature of Native Americans: "Ugh."

I don't know if Elsa is modeled on a historical figure (none I have ever heard of) but the whole situation seems extremely unlikely.   Any number of stills from that last scene would have been right at home on a paperback romance novel.

The only women of the period that I know of who married or bred with Indians were captives, usually taken as children and adopted as part of the tribe.

I don’t know of any who did so by choice. 
 

I agree the show is like a tacky romance novel. They even made a tornado romantic!