S01.E03: Face the Music

[Brn2bwild]

2 minutes ago, Adgirl said:

I know shitty people don't think they should suffer the consequences for their actions but those people are probably the bullies who haven't been punched back yet.

Meanwhile Bertha is having tantrums and deliberately knocking over breakfast trays for the maid to clean up.  I haven't seen many occasions where George has been nice in the few episodes aired.  

They're all just different heads on the same body.

[Adgirl]

Quote

Meanwhile Bertha is having tantrums and deliberately knocking over breakfast trays for the maid to clean up.  

Besides that being their job, they're all on her side except the one who wants to take her place. I'm sure a flare of temper because she was rudely and obviously snubbed is forgivable. And I suspect new money whose daddy dug for potatoes pays a lot better than the starched petticoats across the street.

Also I love how bold Mrs. Russell is. She's smart and ruthless, exactly how I like my female leads. I'm tired of these weak, dumb women in shows/movies. Give me a girl with a dragon tatoo any day.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Adgirl

[Brn2bwild]

10 minutes ago, Adgirl said:

Besides that being their job, they're all on her side except the one who wants to take her place. I'm sure a flare of temper because she was rudely and obviously snubbed is forgivable. And I suspect new money whose daddy dug for potatoes pays a lot better than the starched petticoats across the street.

Also I love how bold Mrs. Russell is. She's smart and ruthless, exactly how I like my female leads. I'm tired of these weak, dumb women in shows/movies. Give me a girl with a dragon tatoo any day.

Just because it's someone's job to clean doesn't mean their employer should deliberately make their job harder.  Overturning a breakfast tray isn't some girl boss power move - it's what a four year old would do.  

As for "all on her side," who can even tell?  We barely know these servants' personalities at this point.

[Hiyo]

Quote

I bet the Morgans and Vanderbilts won't try and cheat George.

Well, they were just as ruthless in business as George, so who knows. The issue is, how wealthy are George and Bertha compared to their real life counterparts? Similar financial status or even wealthier?

Also, at this point in the show's history, have the Vanderbilt's had their ball and been (reluctantly) somewhat accepted by the Astors?

I  do wonder if the show could work a bit better had it been about the Vanderbilts/Carnegies/etc taking on the Astors et al, instead of being fictional characters co-existing alongside their real life counterparts and them showing up occasionally.

 

Quote

As for "all on her side," who can even tell?

Seriously, they are there because they are getting paid.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

It was pretty clear to me.  Ada was being discreet and didn't want to just outright tell Marian, because of social norms I suppose, and I guess respectable women should not speak of these things .  But she said that Mrs. Chamberlain and her husband "knew" each other prior to marriage.  That obviously means they slept together before they got married, which was apparently scandalous for the time. 

Then she said that they had a child, and the child was "older than it should have been".  Meaning the child was born less than 9 months after they got married.  So it was obvious that Mrs. Chamberlain was pregnant before they got married.  Bad enough that they slept together before marriage, but she actually got pregnant.  Double whammy.

Ada did not say the child was adopted into the family.  What she said was that the Chamberlains tried to claim that the child was adopted.  But everyone else did the math and knew better.

I still think that after the scandal, it's possible that the Chamberlains gave the baby up for adoption in order to at least somewhat remain in society.  Even though nobody talks to her, she isn't refused admission to these society events.  So it's possible that if she gave the baby up for adoption, she wouldn't be completely shut out of society.  It would be a very Fellowes-like thing to do to have a secret baby turn up out of nowhere.  I seem to remember speculation on Downton Abbey that Thomas was the secret son of Miss O'Brien, and it's possible that the show may have ended up going this route, but the actress quit the show.

Nobody would have known that they slept together before the marriage, if there hadn't been a child. And if Mrs Chamberlain had given birth to a child faraway and let somebody else adopt her/him, nobody would have known about the child either. The only explanation IMO is that the couple had "adopted" the baby themselves, but the baby's age and looks made people suspect that 

6 hours ago, Shermie said:

But if the baby was adopted, as the Chamberlains claimed, what math is there to do? What would it matter if the child was older than their marriage, since it was (supposedly) adopted? “Doing the math” is only relevant if the Chamberlains claimed the baby was born to them. Taking the “we adopted a baby” is supposed to do away with any busybodies doing any math. Annoyingly, busybody church ladies still do the math these days. 

The baby must have looks that were similar to Mrs Chamberlain, which made people to wonder, especially if she had done a long trip during the time when the baby was born (plus the later stages of pregnancy).  

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

there are enough social history studies dedicated to the topic  of sexual exploitation/abuse of female servants to prove that this is not simple black painting of a single class.  

I didn't mean that it was *only* black painting, but that there were also cases where the children were taken care by their father. Therefore, fiction shouldn't be too easily guessed.

Actually, in this case it's not the master who tries to seduce the servant but the servant who seems to have a wily aims towards the master. The fault is that Fellowes have done the same in Downton Abbey with Tom Branson (although he wasn't a master but a son-in-law) and the maid Edna whose schemes was revealed by Mrs Hughes.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Yes, George is a bully. However, George is a bully in business. George has been nice to those who have been nice to him. He was polite to the Morrises when the Russells invited them for dinner. George maintained that politeness despite Mrs. Morris's smarmy and snarky comments.

The Morrises are bullies in everything.

I agree. As far it has been shown to us, Mr Russell has acted openly honestly with the Old Money in the business matters. It was they who began a feud against him - and even more: they actually tried to ruin him. He took the challenge, accepted risks and won. It's not his fault that Morris decided to take a risk that was too big for him and when it failed, took his own life.

Mr and Mrs Russells are of course not without faults, but they are intelligent, brave, and loyal to each other - they are partners in every respect. Before all, they are not hypocrites.

 

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, Shermie said:

But if the baby was adopted, as the Chamberlains claimed, what math is there to do? What would it matter if the child was older than their marriage, since it was (supposedly) adopted? “Doing the math” is only relevant if the Chamberlains claimed the baby was born to them. Taking the “we adopted a baby” is supposed to do away with any busybodies doing any math. Annoyingly, busybody church ladies still do the math these days. 

But apparently everyone knows the "adoption" is a lie and they can smirk and scorn Mrs Chamberlain even more for having tried to fool society.

7 hours ago, Adgirl said:

If the young Miss Russell were a bit more sophisticated she'd see that marriage to Oscar would be a kind of freedom she'll never know even if she marries for love.

True, but she's grown up with parents who adore each other and probably sees this as her ideal.

6 hours ago, AntFTW said:

George has been nice to those who have been nice to him. He was polite to the Morrises when the Russells invited them for dinner. George maintained that politeness despite Mrs. Morris's smarmy and snarky comments.

He's nice when he wants something from them.

[AntFTW]

51 minutes ago, Haleth said:

He's nice when he wants something from them.

They’re nice when they want something from him.

I’m considering that we don’t get that many scenes of George interacting with people outside of his business and his family where he seems to be a rather nice person to his employees and to his family. With that consideration, what opportunities do they give him to be nice? When they insult his wife? When they dine at his table and make snarky comments? When they try to financially ruin him? 

Edited February 10, 2022 by AntFTW

[Haleth]

27 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

They’re nice when they want something from him.

Oh, I agree.  It's just a business transaction for all of them.

[Pestilentia]

I think George is perfectly 'nice' and fair and respectable in his business dealings.  

I think the point we are meant to take away is that with George you get ONE chance to complete a fair and respectable deal, but if you try to manipulate the deal or put one over on him he will go full on scorched earth.  It's not a bad reputation to strive for and that's what George is doing- he maintains the veneer of respectability but those he does business with know not to push.  At all. If George offers market value then you take market value if you know what's good for you.

It's always amusing when those that came to power through intimidation and ruthlessness are brought down by intimidation and ruthlessness. They were so aghast that he turned the tables and used their own methodology right back at them. And while I try not to take pleasure in watching a family be destroyed I do think it is a case of "Live by the sword, die by the sword" and turnabout is very fair play.

Although the conversation passed I also wanted to touch on the "No always means no and always has" topic that came up. The younger viewers among us see this as a very black and white statement and that's a good thing- it means progress is happening. But no did not always mean "No."

A young woman was always expected to say no to the first advance. She would say "No" even if her knees were quivering in anticipation and she knew full well she wanted to jump his bones later than night- a lady always says no. Read it again- a lady always says no.

"No" did in fact mean "maybe." A woman says no once, twice, and maybe even three times- it's a false protest, a dance done among women and men of that era. A social convention, a certain standard of conduct that was accepted as the way it was done. 

No amount of 2022 sensibility can change the fact that no did in fact not mean no.  Not at all.

I loved the yellow dress. As someone who cannot wear warm colors I always notice yellows that other people wear well and I thought this one looked very nice on her. I especially loved the shade of yellow- most yellows tend toward atrocious golds but this very pale, pastel shade looked amazing IMO. Not that Peggy's purple wasn't punchier but I noticed the yellow and liked it very much.  

 

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I think George is perfectly 'nice' and fair and respectable in his business dealings.  

I don't think he got to his current position by being like that.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

The issue is, how wealthy are George and Bertha compared to their real life counterparts? Similar financial status or even wealthier?

The crux of the matter is also what kind of fortune they have: does the value fall and rise? can it be sold easily? And how much they have loaned? 

Mr Morris had evidently loaned more than his fortune was worth. 

[Hiyo]

I don't think that's an issue, since they are basically new money analogues of the Vanderbilts/Carnegies/Morgans (especially the Vanderbilts), so they don't have to worry about any of that, unless some rival is able to really outmaneuver George in a business deal.

[eejm]

The colors, styles, and prints each of the women wore were chosen carefully.  Marian’s color scheme is (unsurprisingly) pastels to convey her innocence and newness to the city.

I’ve never been a big fan of pastels (give me deep jewel tones any day), but I think they suit Marian.

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

The crux of the matter is also what kind of fortune they have: does the value fall and rise? can it be sold easily? And how much they have loaned? 

Mr Morris had evidently loaned more than his fortune was worth. 

On top of what you said, markets are tricky. You can bet less than your fortune, and end up with a financial loss greater than your fortune. With the financial scheme the aldermen hatched, they could have ended up  with a much greater financial loss than the amount they actually risked to participate in the scheme.

Edited February 10, 2022 by AntFTW

[blackwing]

52 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

I think George is perfectly 'nice' and fair and respectable in his business dealings.  

I think the point we are meant to take away is that with George you get ONE chance to complete a fair and respectable deal, but if you try to manipulate the deal or put one over on him he will go full on scorched earth.  It's not a bad reputation to strive for and that's what George is doing- he maintains the veneer of respectability but those he does business with know not to push.  At all. If George offers market value then you take market value if you know what's good for you.

I very much disagree.  He wasn't particularly "nice" or "fair" to that guy who he was putting out of business.  The guy was older, in his 60s it seemed, had probably spent his whole life building his railroad business.  George apparently had offered/demanded to buy his company.  When the guy said no, George simply said he was going to build a competing train station.  The guy said it would put him out of business.  George said "too bad.  I made you an offer and you refused, so now you are going to suffer and lose everything".  That doesn't seem very nice to me.  

I get it, the purpose of that conversation was to show that George is ruthless just like all of the other robber barons who got rich during this time.  He is described on the HBO website as a "classic robber baron".  Robber barons were not known for being particularly nice or fair.  They used every method, no matter how unscrupulous, to get ahead and get rich.  The thing the aldermen were trying to do with the stock?  It's probably the same thing George has done himself to others.

So yes, George is a businessman just like many others in his time.  But nice and fair and respectable, he is not.

 

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Just because it's someone's job to clean doesn't mean their employer should deliberately make their job harder.  Overturning a breakfast tray isn't some girl boss power move - it's what a four year old would do.

It wasn’t meant to be a “girl boss move.” She vented her frustration in the privacy of her bedroom. Adults have a fit of rage. Adults can have hissy fits and tamper tantrums too. Adults experience anger and frustration, and can show it in various ways like throwing the closest thing to you.

She threw a tray of food. She didn’t take her frustration out on anyone else. She didn’t harm, insult, or belittle anyone else. She didn’t throw the tray intentionally for the purpose of making an extra mess for the staff to clean up. The intent was not to make their jobs harder. She had a moment in private to herself.

Edited February 10, 2022 by AntFTW

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

It wasn’t meant to be a “girl boss move.” She vented her frustration in the privacy of her bedroom. Adults have a fit of rage. Adults can have hissy fits and tamper tantrums too. Adults experience anger and frustration, and can show it in various ways like throwing the closing thing to you.

She threw a tray of food. She didn’t take her frustration out on anyone else. She didn’t harm, insult, or belittle anyone else. She didn’t throw the tray intentionally for the purpose of making an extra mess for the staff to clean up. The intent was not to make their jobs harder. She had a moment in private to herself.

By forcing her servant to do extra work, she was taking out her frustration on someone else.  But returning to this episode, I've yet to see a scene in which this character is kind, thoughtful, or empathetic toward anyone outside of her family.  But the viewer is supposed to empathize with her?  She and her husband have to give much more than they've given in the first few episodes.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Brn2bwild

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

By forcing her servant to do extra work, she was taking out her frustration on someone else.

I disagree but ok.

4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

But returning to this episode, I've yet to see a scene in which this character be kind, thoughtful, or empathetic toward anyone outside of her family.  But the viewer is supposed to empathize with her?

Outside of Peggy, Ada and maybe the Russell kids, it's hard to find a character in this show to empathize with.

It's hard to find a personal trait in Bertha to empathize with. I don't think we're meant to empathize with any internal trait but rather empathize with her external struggle to fit in.

Everyone is an asshole trading asshole blows back and forth. Many of the characters have no redeeming qualities.

[blackwing]

17 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

It's hard to find a personal trait in Bertha to empathize with. I don't think we're meant to empathize with any internal trait but rather empathize with her external struggle to fit in.

Everyone is an asshole trading asshole blows back and forth. Many of the characters have no redeeming qualities.

I would be much more inclined to empathize with her struggle to fit in, if they showed she is a kind person at heart.  But she's not.

My issue is that Bertha is presented as the protagonist of this story (per Fellowes himself).  On its face, I do want her to succeed, because I think the class distinctions between old and new should blur.  But it's hard to want her to succeed because she is just so damn unlikeable.

If you are saying we should empathize with her external struggle to fit in, then should we also not empathize with Agnes' external struggle to try and preserve her way of life and what she is used to?

The difference for me is that Agnes has a kind heart.  She took in her penniless niece that she barely knows and treats her well as a full fledged member of her family.  She gave a job to a black woman during a time when there was clearly still a lot of discrimination, even in the North.

So if I have to choose sides, I am siding with Agnes, because she seems to be a better person than Bertha.

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I very much disagree.  He wasn't particularly "nice" or "fair" to that guy who he was putting out of business.  The guy was older, in his 60s it seemed, had probably spent his whole life building his railroad business.  George apparently had offered/demanded to buy his company.  When the guy said no, George simply said he was going to build a competing train station.  The guy said it would put him out of business.  George said "too bad.  I made you an offer and you refused, so now you are going to suffer and lose everything".  That doesn't seem very nice to me.  

Who decides what's fair in a negotiation?

The older guy is also wealthy. Maybe he's equally an asshole like George. We don't really know. Maybe the older guy also put other railroads out of business. Again, we don't really know.

The guy didn't say 'no' when George offered to buy his company. He was willing to sell his company. They couldn't agree on the price. Therefore, George decided to build a competing railroad instead of trying to buy the other guy's railroad. That is not unfair. That's not a "nice" or "mean" thing.

After that, once George's railroad is up and running, there is a degree of fairness and unfairness. George may try to undercut the competing railroad knowing that he has the deeper pockets to do that long enough for the other guy to go out of business. However, we never get to that point so we'll never know.

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I get it, the purpose of that conversation was to show that George is ruthless just like all of the other robber barons who got rich during this time.  He is described on the HBO website as a "classic robber baron".  Robber barons were not known for being particularly nice or fair.  They used every method, no matter how unscrupulous, to get ahead and get rich.  The thing the aldermen were trying to do with the stock?  It's probably the same thing George has done himself to others.

So yes, George is a businessman just like many others in his time.  But nice and fair and respectable, he is not.

For me, I put things in lanes. George is ruthless and cutthroat in business (Lane #1) but  personally (Lane #2), he may be nice.

Bertha was an asshole to her old friends (Lane #1), but she wasn't an asshole to the Morrises and the Fanes when they met so therefore the Morrises and Fanes have no reason to be an asshole to her (Lane #2).

Edited February 10, 2022 by AntFTW

[Carolina Girl]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:33 PM, kristen111 said:

Ding, ding.  Right.  He handled her Fathers estate.  Supposidely, there was nothing.  Could he be that much of a creep?

That's what I'm wondering myself.   It also might explain his beating a hasty exit out of Pennsylvania.   The first bar exam was in Massachusetts in 1885, so he could immediately practice in any state.  I should think that New York was a far more competitive legal market.  Did he say he was opening his own practice or joining a firm?  If hanging out his own shingle, that would be expensive, since it's doubtful that he'd be getting clients right away (unless he was hoping Auntie Agnes would steer some people his way (not effing LIKELY!).

[Carolina Girl]

On 2/9/2022 at 8:57 AM, MissLucas said:

Speaking of that dinner scener Larry mentioning his mother's ancestors digging up potatoes in Kerry was rather rude. He got a light reprimand from his father but I expected more consequences (after dinner of course).

And it's quite probable that the progeny of the "shanty Irish" that immigrated to the U.S. after the potato famine in 1845 would not have been acceptable to New York society even 40 years later.

[arty]

13 hours ago, Adgirl said:

I bet the Morgans and Vanderbilts won't try and cheat George.

Why not? I doubt there was much honor or loyalty among robber barons.

In the late 1860s, George Russell's real-life inspiration, Jay Gould, got into a conflict with Cornelius Vanderbilt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_War. I recently visited one of the Goulds' weekend homes in Tarrytown, NY. The tour guide made a point of telling us how much Gould resented Vanderbilt even though he had been victorious against Vanderbilt.

[Carolina Girl]

20 hours ago, blackwing said:

her performance is one note and all she has to do is speak in a monotone. 

She's plays Ben Affleck's sister in "Gone Girl".  Much different performance.

[sugarbaker design]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:54 AM, meatball77 said:

I think Oscars bed buddy is his valet so he has an excuse to be at his house all the time.,

It's already been established that the bed buddy (sorry, I can't remember his name) is a good friend of Oscar's, Agnes and Ada have known him for a long time.

[Carolina Girl]

11 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Also, at this point in the show's history, have the Vanderbilt's had their ball and been (reluctantly) somewhat accepted by the Astors?

I'm going to assume so, since in the first episode, Bertha comments to George "in the beginning the Vanderbilts weren't accepted and they're everywhere nowdays."

It was Alva's ball that broke them into society, so I'm going to assume it has taken place.  

[AntFTW]

15 minutes ago, arty said:

Why not? I doubt there was much honor or loyalty among robber barons.

In the late 1860s, George Russell's real-life inspiration, Jay Gould, got into a conflict with Cornelius Vanderbilt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_War. I recently visited one of the Goulds' weekend homes in Tarrytown, NY. The tour guide made a point of telling us how much Gould resented Vanderbilt even though he had been victorious against Vanderbilt.

Nice!

Here's the inspiration behind this episode.

https://medium.com/diamond-hand-investing/the-original-big-short-squeeze-f1f0f23b54a2

It tells multiple stories but the specific one for this episode is under Short Squeeze in 1863 with Cornelius Vanderbilt buying up the shares to squeeze the city council on their short positions.

[sugarbaker design]

22 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

She's plays Ben Affleck's sister in "Gone Girl".  Much different performance.

CC says my favorite line from Gone Girl "I can't believe that fucking spider is America's sweetheart"

[Hiyo]

Quote

they met so therefore the Morrises and Fanes have no reason to be an asshole to her

But they also have no reason to let her into their social circle if they don't want her there. Bertha isn't really entitled to jackshit from any of these women. But, old money vs new money didn't start with the Gilded Age, and it didn't end there either.

[JenE4]

I was almost thinking that George set up the aldermen by planting the idea for them to short-sell the stock. He told them the whole three-step process before they had even done anything. That would make him diabolical instead of acting on the defensive. But I admit that I might be overly influenced by “Billions” because that’s totally something that Axe would have done.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It wasn’t meant to be a “girl boss move.” She vented her frustration in the privacy of her bedroom. Adults have a fit of rage. Adults can have hissy fits and tamper tantrums too. Adults experience anger and frustration, and can show it in various ways like throwing the closest thing to you.

She threw a tray of food. She didn’t take her frustration out on anyone else. She didn’t harm, insult, or belittle anyone else. She didn’t throw the tray intentionally for the purpose of making an extra mess for the staff to clean up. The intent was not to make their jobs harder. She had a moment in private to herself.

 

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

By forcing her servant to do extra work, she was taking out her frustration on someone else.  But returning to this episode, I've yet to see a scene in which this character is kind, thoughtful, or empathetic toward anyone outside of her family.  But the viewer is supposed to empathize with her?  She and her husband have to give much more than they've given in the first few episodes.

It's basically more like she just doesn't think of servants as existing at all. She threw her tray because she was frustrated over something that was pretty entitled on her part, and of course it didn't occur to her what would happen to the food after that. Servants don't clean things in front of her. They're supposed to be invisible.

Likewise she cut all the friends she used to have because they're invisible now too that they're not the people who are supposed to be worth something. She doesn't have real friendships. The family on Succession has a clearer term for these kinds of situations: NRPI. No Real Person Involved.

The real difference between the Russells and the others in this ep was just, imo, that the Russells are still close enough to their pre-money lives to face living it again. They openly discussed the possibility that their scheme could fail and were ready to deal with it if it did. Where as the alderman had spent their lives protected and hadn't really considered it as a real possibility. So as usual, they were all betting the same thing, but the Old Money always thought they weren't really betting it.

[Shermie]

I really don’t have sympathy for most of these characters, except maybe their kids. Although they’ll likely grow up and behave the same way, given the examples they live with.

Aside from all the money issues, the Old Money group was even petty enough to not allow the New Money people from attending the opera. Like, what’s it to them? They sit in  different places; they don’t have to interact. It’s just so petty. So they can’t be angry when New Money builds their own opera house and lures the talent there with their substantial funds. I mean, what did Old Money think would happen? 

The opera issue is representative of the money issue. They needlessly freeze out people for pointless reasons, when they could all just work together and all benefit. Comeuppance is a bitch.

[eejm]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

It's basically more like she just doesn't think of servants as existing at all. She threw her tray because she was frustrated over something that was pretty entitled on her part, and of course it didn't occur to her what would happen to the food after that. Servants don't clean things in front of her. They're supposed to be invisible.

As dehumanizing as it may be, it was the prevailing attitude of the time.  It has been discussed a couple of times on the HBO podcast.  Julian Fellows stated that the literature of the time hardly mentioned servants at all.  He includes them as characters in his work because they are people with feelings, thoughts, and interesting lives of their own.  His audience recognizes them as such, but their employers often did not.  Morgan Spector said it was one of the biggest adjustments he had to make playing George - he’d be chatting with the other actors one minute, and the next he had to treat them like furniture.  We abhor treating people like anything other than individuals, when that mindset was anything but to the Russells, van Rhijns, etc.

Edited February 10, 2022 by eejm

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

But they also have no reason to let her into their social circle if they don't want her there. Bertha isn't really entitled to jackshit from any of these women.

I don't argue that. They don't have to let her into their circle.

However, I'm only referring to the way they treat her. They keep her out of the circle and then be rude little monsters to her for being out of the circle.

If they don't like her, they don't have to be around her. They don't have to invite her to these social events (disguised as charity events) if they don't like her but they do.

Agnes is the only one that is sincere with her feelings. Agnes doesn't like Bertha. Agnes doesn't hide that. Agnes doesn't talk to Bertha because she doesn't like her. Agnes won't invite Bertha for her fake charity events because she doesn't like her. Agnes won't show up to an "at-home" event because she doesn't like her.

Aurora Fane and Anne Morris invites Bertha to these social events even though they don't like her. They would gladly act cordial and friendly just long enough to get Bertha's money. Aurora Fane showed up at Bertha's house for the "at-home" event even though she doesn't like her. After making obviously rude comments throughout the evening, Anne Morris pretended she would just love to host their event in Bertha's ballroom, when that was never true.

Edited February 10, 2022 by AntFTW

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, eejm said:

As dehumanizing as it may be, it was the prevailing attitude of the time.  It has been discussed a couple of times on the HBO podcast.  Julian Fellows stated that the literature of the time hardly mentioned servants at all.  He includes them as characters in his work because they are people with feelings, thoughts, and lives.  His audience recognizes them as such, but their employers often did not.  Morgan Spector said it was one of the biggest adjustments he had to make playing George - he’d be chatting with the other actors one minute, and the next he had to treat them like furniture.  We abhor treating people like anything other than individual, when that mindset was anything but to the Russells, van Rhijns, etc.

Well, yes, but that doesn't make it not part of her individual character as well. There's always people who it turns out didn't have the prevailing attitude that's supposed to be out of their control. If she's new money she probably didn't grow up doing that. It's central to her character that she wants to be able to act like that.

[KarenX]

On 2/7/2022 at 8:47 PM, sistermagpie said:

I took it that way--and was surprised it didn't occur to Marian!

I wonder if it might turn out to be that the kid actually was premature so she's ostracized for nothing.

Little House plot line! Caroline Ingalls shut down Mrs. Olsen’s gossip along these lines right quick. Ma was at the birth. It was premature. And I believe they got their revenge by altering proofs of an Olsen ad in the newspaper. Instead of announcing a 10% sale they changed it to a 100% sale and the townsfolk looted the store.

That’s prairie Old/New money justice.

Edited February 11, 2022 by KarenX

[eejm]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, yes, but that doesn't make it not part of her individual character as well. There's always people who it turns out didn't have the prevailing attitude that's supposed to be out of their control. If she's new money she probably didn't grow up doing that. It's central to her character that she wants to be able to act like that.

True, and it doesn’t make her at all likeable to a current audience.  But her contemporaries would not have found Bertha’s treatment of the servants objectionable.  Nor would she have been unusual in behaving that way.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

CC says my favorite line from Gone Girl "I can't believe that fucking spider is America's sweetheart"

I didn't realize she was in Gone Girl.

[KarenX]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:06 PM, dmc said:

The other part of this show that I find odd is they constantly present George and Bertha as wanting to be part of society...and every time they get the slightest opportunity or chance they both act they don't want to be a part of it...like which is it.  

They are conflicted. They want to get in, and they want their kids to advance, but they don’t really want to do the behaviors once they are accepted. It certainly doesn’t look like anyone is having fun. I think Bertha really was not afraid of the risk of losing their fortune. She really is resilient. They probably would be happier out west, like in San Francisco. I like their DGAF attitude and wish they had a wider perspective.

I don’t know that Boston society is in any way comparable to New York but I think the novel The Rise of Silas Lapham (1885) by William Dean Howells is an interesting companion piece to the Russell’s story. 
 

 

[KarenX]

I am pretty sure that the late Alderman has life insurance, probably enough to keep his family from ruin. He was protecting their future by taking his life. I don’t think it was shame or embarrassment.

I am also curious how old the Russell children were when they became rich, where they are actually from, and if the old friends she won’t entertain were her real old friends from her real old life, or just people who lived by her while the mansion was being built.

We know that she didn’t want to invite her sister to the party but I don’t remember if it’s because she has cut off her sister. Is there room for a generous interpretation there?

I like Bertha and George just fine.

[Hiyo]

Quote

I like their DGAF attitude and wish they had a wider perspective.

From what we have seen, their attitude (especially Bertha) is the opposite of DGAF.

Quote

If they don't like her, they don't have to be around her. They don't have to invite her to these social events (disguised as charity events) if they don't like her but they do.

Yes, they want her money. Anyone can see that. Heck, even Stevie Wonder can see that.

And if all they want is her money...then that's up to them. They still owe her nothing beyond that.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I would be much more inclined to empathize with her struggle to fit in, if they showed she is a kind person at heart.  But she's not.

My issue is that Bertha is presented as the protagonist of this story (per Fellowes himself).  On its face, I do want her to succeed, because I think the class distinctions between old and new should blur.  But it's hard to want her to succeed because she is just so damn unlikeable.

If you are saying we should empathize with her external struggle to fit in, then should we also not empathize with Agnes' external struggle to try and preserve her way of life and what she is used to?

The difference for me is that Agnes has a kind heart.  She took in her penniless niece that she barely knows and treats her well as a full fledged member of her family.  She gave a job to a black woman during a time when there was clearly still a lot of discrimination, even in the North.

So if I have to choose sides, I am siding with Agnes, because she seems to be a better person than Bertha.

To me, "a kind heart" doesn't make me sympathize a person who believes to be better than others simply because of her birth in the "right" family. 

Fellowes has never been a "realistic" writer. But at least he has understood what kind of men succeeded in the 1880ies. If that if Mr Russell were "nice", he would never become a rich man. Also, Mrs Russell has just that kind of character who puts appearances first - which was general in that age.

To me, characters don't need to likeable. They need to be interesting. That means they have to meet challenges or choices. In this episode Russells passed the test, whereas Morgan failed. Peggy met a choice, but we don't know her decision.

Agnes hasn't been tested yet - it's easy to be "nice" when that doesn't demand anything. It was a duty to help a relative (not only a niece but a distant cousin), and as for Peggy, Agnes said that she helps only those who help themselves. So f.ex. babies shouldn't be helped?

[KarenX]

10 minutes ago, Roseanna said:Agnes hasn't been tested yet - it's easy to be "nice" when that doesn't demand anything. It was a duty to help a relative (not only a niece but a distant cousin), and as for Peggy, Agnes said that she helps only those who help themselves. So f.ex. babies shouldn't be helped?

I don’t know why that is all caps.

I think Agnes was tested and passed when she hired Peggy, at least so far as acknowledging capability goes. It was unusual to bring a Black woman into the house, I bet, and she is showing incredible trust in her by making her secretary.

When Agnes said she helps those who help themselves she was being self-deprecating. She wasn’t really “helping” Peggy. Peggy “helped herself” by being superbly confident and competent, and demonstrating a generous and gracious character. Agnes isn’t lifting her up with an opportunity; Peggy is making her own luck.

[KarenX]

22 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

 

Quote

I like their DGAF attitude and wish they had a wider perspective.

From what we have seen, their attitude (especially Bertha) is the opposite of DGAF.

 

I guess what I meant was they do GAF about achieving the goals they set for themselves but don’t GAF about convention or custom, and are not afraid to take risks or of the future. They are self-reliant. I guarantee Bertha knows how to scrub her own floors and isn’t above work as a means to an end.

There is a lot of Rhett Butler and Scarlett O’Hara in this pair.

[Hiyo]

Quote

She wasn’t really “helping” Peggy. Peggy “helped herself” by being superbly confident and competent, and demonstrating a generous and gracious character.

She helped  her by giving her an opportunity most people would not have given, especially given who Peggy was.

Quote

There is a lot of Rhett Butler and Scarlett O’Hara in this pair.

Yeah but Rhett and Scarlett were a very toxic couple.

[Words]

They have not given us much detail about George & Bertha's past life.  Hope we get a bit of background to help us understand their current behavior.

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

To me, characters don't need to likeable. They need to be interesting.

That, in a nutshell is my problem with this show. No one is interesting - least of all the Russells. Their climb is supposed to be one of the main threads of the story, and they're completely flat and one-note. I can totally get behind unlikeable characters if they're fun to watch (O'Brien & Thomas were great villains on Downton). But the Russells aren't fun or entertaining - I'm not moved to root for or against them. I just don't care about their ambitions or machinations at all.

I'm mostly watching to see what happens with Peggy, Aunt Ada, and the mysterious Mrs. Chamberlain. Only the side-characters are holding my interest.

[dmc]

3 hours ago, KarenX said:

They are conflicted. They want to get in, and they want their kids to advance, but they don’t really want to do the behaviors once they are accepted. It certainly doesn’t look like anyone is having fun. I think Bertha really was not afraid of the risk of losing their fortune. She really is resilient. They probably would be happier out west, like in San Francisco. I like their DGAF attitude and wish they had a wider perspective.

I don’t know that Boston society is in any way comparable to New York but I think the novel The Rise of Silas Lapham (1885) by William Dean Howells is an interesting companion piece to the Russell’s story. 
 

 

I feel like that’s the part that’s not coming across to me, the conflicted part.  I absolutely think you’re correct and that’s how it’s meant to come across. I also think that they were meant to be the protagonist as well which isn’t really working for me either. I’m going to keep watching though and see what happens I’m sure at some point I’ll feel some sort of connection to these characters