Secrets Of Playboy - General Discussion

[RealHousewife]

24 minutes ago, MsTree said:

No, being raped by party guys does not apply at all. Cosby is/was worst offender! And No, it does not mean ANY woman (including bunnies) should be raped by men.

I am a victim of rape and would never condone such despicable/disgusting behavior!

I'm so sorry MSTREE. *hug*

 

[MsTree]

Just now, RealHousewife said:

I'm so sorry MSTREE. *hug*

 

Thanks ❤️

[TrixieTrue]

7 hours ago, MsTree said:

RE: the bold sentence -- that was her first mistake. I never said the kinky person shouldn't be culpable for their behavior. In fact, I said it was disgusting IF he did all they claim. And since he's dead he can't defend himself...which is another thing. Why now, years after he's dead are they coming out with this story? What exactly do they hope to gain by sullying his legacy?

Sorry, but I don't see Hef, the girls & house guests as a "cult"...so I refuse to equate him with the likes of Charles Manson. 

And since Sondra DID recognize how things slowly escalated, she should have immediately said 'no'. In order to recognize that, she would have been in a sound mind. Nobody was holding a gun to her head. She only stayed because she thought her relationship was going to pay. And when she finally realized after 5 years that was never going to happen, she finally got up and walked out. 

Why come out with everything after he's dead? I think because of fears of retaliation when he was alive. And not just him, his friends. Holly said Hef had photos from group party nights and Crystal confirmed that, so it's possible that Hef and his male friends had photos. And considering how many people are saying why now, why not earlier when he was alive and could defend himself, I understand why they waited so long. 

 

ETA: I just read something on a friend's instagram that resonated with me. The post reads:

First off there are a gazillion reasons why a victim may not tell people. But also, what does “come forward“ even mean? Telling a friend? Family? Your therapist? Reporting to the police? Filing a lawsuit? Making a social media post? Or do you mean, why did it take me so long to tell you, even though the fact that you chose to ask this question is one clear potential answer? 

Sometimes people don’t recognize it as abuse or know the language to express what’s going on. Sometimes it’s not safe and sometimes they just don’t want to. Sometimes they do try to “come forward” but aren’t able to for various reasons or lack of resources and support. Whatever it is, they don’t owe anyone details, proof or acknowledgment of your experiences. The priority is their healing and whatever that may look like for them.

Edited February 16, 2022 by TrixieTrue
Wanted to add something

[Keywestclubkid]

7 hours ago, MsTree said:

RE: the bold sentence -- that was her first mistake. I never said the kinky person shouldn't be culpable for their behavior. In fact, I said it was disgusting IF he did all they claim. And since he's dead he can't defend himself...which is another thing. Why now, years after he's dead are they coming out with this story? What exactly do they hope to gain by sullying his legacy?

Sorry, but I don't see Hef, the girls & house guests as a "cult"...so I refuse to equate him with the likes of Charles Manson. 

And since Sondra DID recognize how things slowly escalated, she should have immediately said 'no'. In order to recognize that, she would have been in a sound mind. Nobody was holding a gun to her head. She only stayed because she thought her relationship was going to pay. And when she finally realized after 5 years that was never going to happen, she finally got up and walked out. 

it just appears that you were victim blaming in the first paragraph and all through the post

"nobody put a gun to Sondra's head. And once again, long after Hef's death, we have another disgruntled woman talking shit...much in which they voluntarily were involved in."

thats like saying "nobody made the battered gf/bf stay I mean when they first got together they were voluntarily involved so they were asking for it anyway"

Edited February 16, 2022 by Keywestclubkid

[Keywestclubkid]

7 hours ago, MsTree said:

No, being raped by party guys does not apply at all. Cosby is/was worst offender! And No, it does not mean ANY woman (including bunnies) should be raped by men.

I am a victim of rape and would never condone such despicable/disgusting behavior!

First let me say I am so sorry... its a horrible experience that I share with you that NO ONE should go through

 

when someone appears to victim blame it triggers me so badly cause I know what its like NOT to have people believe you. These women share a story and are made to feel like they are lying because they "got things" out of the situation .. yea they got royally screwed up and told they were liar's and to shut up because they lived a fabulous life and got put in magazines so therefore anything that happened to them shouldn't be brought up cause they were "asking for it" ...and people asking WHY NOW also bugs me .. you cant tell people how they should deal with the trauma they went through I didn't tell anyone about what happened to me (molestation/rape)  till a decade later doesn't mean what I was saying wasn't true just means i was fearful and dealing with it in my own way....and this was a multi billion dollar company that they were saying things about ...most of these stories from ALL of the girls are to similar to just be brushed off .. And it doesn't matter if she was there one day of her own free will or NOT he and the people around him helped to break these girls down and do what they did ....

Edited February 16, 2022 by Keywestclubkid

[Tatum]

7 hours ago, TrixieTrue said:

Why come out with everything after he's dead? I think because of fears of retaliation when he was alive.

I agree. When anyone comes forward with a sexual assault accusation, it's an almost guaranteed result that her accuser will do what he can to discredit her. Perhaps after being assaulted, the victim simply doesn't have the stomach to have everything she's ever done dragged out in public in an effort to make her look not credible.

[EdnasEdibles]

This episode. Damn. 

I honestly felt so bad for Sondra when she was crying at the end about how she hoped one day she'd find someone who loves her just for who she is and then also her internalized ageism about how she's too old to be attractive now. 

[RealHousewife]

16 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

This episode. Damn. 

I honestly felt so bad for Sondra when she was crying at the end about how she hoped one day she'd find someone who loves her just for who she is and then also her internalized ageism about how she's too old to be attractive now. 

It's so sad, but it makes sense. When you've only ever been wanted for your looks, you think it's the only reason anyone will want you. I think even regular women who were never Playmates with Sondra's face and body feel this. Older men can be seen as silver foxes, more attractive if they have $, if they're funny, charismatic, etc. With women, it's our age, face, body. Stuff we only have so much control over. 

4 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

First let me say I am so sorry... its a horrible experience that I share with you that NO ONE should go through

when someone appears to victim blame it triggers me so badly cause I know what its like NOT to have people believe you. 

I see both sides. I remember everyone being shocked and asking why now, why now about Bill Cosby. The worst stuff done to me I've never shared with anyone. Part of it is because I was so young, and sometimes I question my own memory. It makes me uncomfortable to even discuss with a therapist because I would never want to portray someone as something so despicable if my memory isn't accurate. But honestly, just talking about it makes me cry. I absolutely get why people either wait decades or just take their trauma to the grave. 

On the other side of things, I can also get triggered when there's this attitude that if you have a different opinion, you have no idea what it's like to be abused or you stand with abusers. It's extremely offensive. Or if you don't see every situation as a big deal, you're victim shaming. Sometimes victims of serious trauma get sick of what feels like victimhood culture. 

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Older men can be seen as silver foxes, more attractive if they have $, if they're funny, charismatic, etc. With women, it's our age, face, body. Stuff we only have so much control over. 

I don’t know if you’re speaking for yourself or others here? But women are also often appreciated for being funny, charismatic, etc. 

Again, maybe I’ve misunderstood you, but if someone stands with an abuser, they need to own that and thus will be judged accordingly.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Cinnabon

[EdnasEdibles]

39 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know if you’re speaking for yourself or others here? But women are also often appreciated for being funny, charismatic, etc. 

Again, maybe I’ve misunderstood you, but if someone stands with an abuser, they need to own that and thus will be judged accordingly.

 

I took her to mean that "society sends a message" that men can be silver foxes . . . not that RealHousewife personally feels that. 

Logically I know it's true that women can also be funny and charismatic and age beautifully but there is still this underlying societal message that women get less attractive as they age and men do not deal with this as much. As someone turning 46 this week, I feel the message strongly from a lot of directions and I'm not a former playmate or anything close to it. I have never made money or gotten attention for my looks and even I'm feeling that societal pressure so I can only imagine what Sondra felt and is feeling.

[Sweet-tea]

Sondra was a 19 year-old virgin when 50 year-old Hef met her. He took advantage of a naive young woman. He’s scum. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[RealHousewife]

13 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I took her to mean that "society sends a message" that men can be silver foxes . . . not that RealHousewife personally feels that. 

Logically I know it's true that women can also be funny and charismatic and age beautifully but there is still this underlying societal message that women get less attractive as they age and men do not deal with this as much. As someone turning 46 this week, I feel the message strongly from a lot of directions and I'm not a former playmate or anything close to it. I have never made money or gotten attention for my looks and even I'm feeling that societal pressure so I can only imagine what Sondra felt and is feeling.

Yes, exactly what I meant. 

[Keywestclubkid]

17 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I took her to mean that "society sends a message" that men can be silver foxes . . . not that RealHousewife personally feels that. 

Logically I know it's true that women can also be funny and charismatic and age beautifully but there is still this underlying societal message that women get less attractive as they age and men do not deal with this as much. As someone turning 46 this week, I feel the message strongly from a lot of directions and I'm not a former playmate or anything close to it. I have never made money or gotten attention for my looks and even I'm feeling that societal pressure so I can only imagine what Sondra felt and is feeling.

Magnify that in the gay world which is already super body and age conscious when you are considered out to pasture after 30 and god help you in you don’t have abs and pecs cause you might has well not exist. And don’t look for yourself in any media cause you are muscle or twink and there is no in-between 

[RealHousewife]

Just now, Keywestclubkid said:

Magnify that in the gay world which is already super body and age conscious when you are considered out to pasture after 30 and god help you in you don’t have abs and pecs cause you might has well not exist. And don’t look for yourself in any media cause you are muscle or twink and there is no in-between 

Yes! Men are just more visual, and when you're attracted to them and want them to be attracted to you, the pressure is real. My friends who are gay men are all good-looking guys, but none of them see themselves that way. 

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I took her to mean that "society sends a message" that men can be silver foxes . . . not that RealHousewife personally feels that. 

Logically I know it's true that women can also be funny and charismatic and age beautifully but there is still this underlying societal message that women get less attractive as they age and men do not deal with this as much. As someone turning 46 this week, I feel the message strongly from a lot of directions and I'm not a former playmate or anything close to it. I have never made money or gotten attention for my looks and even I'm feeling that societal pressure so I can only imagine what Sondra felt and is feeling.

Hell, I'm 37 and have to hear male Incels talk about how I am way past my prime while they are still so hot and desirable.

If you were that hot, you would not be an Incel in the first place.

Hef reminds me of Incels in that he believes that women have to play by a strict set of rules, while men have total freedom to do whatever they want.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I took her to mean that "society sends a message" that men can be silver foxes . . . not that RealHousewife personally feels that. 

Logically I know it's true that women can also be funny and charismatic and age beautifully but there is still this underlying societal message that women get less attractive as they age and men do not deal with this as much. As someone turning 46 this week, I feel the message strongly from a lot of directions and I'm not a former playmate or anything close to it. I have never made money or gotten attention for my looks and even I'm feeling that societal pressure so I can only imagine what Sondra felt and is feeling.

I do understand that. I’m over 50 and know what you mean. But I can also say that most of the men I know of the same age also feel “old” and less attractive than they once did. I also had more men interested in me after 40 than in earlier years, despite my aging appearance.  

Did Hef ever have any female friends close to her age? Well, besides Mary. I wonder how his daughter felt about all of this. 

56 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Magnify that in the gay world which is already super body and age conscious when you are considered out to pasture after 30 and god help you in you don’t have abs and pecs cause you might has well not exist. And don’t look for yourself in any media cause you are muscle or twink and there is no in-between 

What about the gay “bears?”

[Keywestclubkid]

10 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I do understand that. I’m over 50 and know what you mean. But I can also say that most of the men I know of the same age also feel “old” and less attractive than they once did. I also had more men interested in me after 40 than in earlier years, despite my aging appearance.  

Did Hef ever have any female friends close to her age? Well, besides Mary. I wonder how his daughter felt about all of this. 

What about the gay “bears?”

Muscle bears? LOL 

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Muscle bears? LOL 

I mean big guys. I’ve known quite a few gay men who are attracted to them. Not just tall, but big all over. Often bearded. 

[RealHousewife]

50 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Hell, I'm 37 and have to hear male Incels talk about how I am way past my prime while they are still so hot and desirable.

If you were that hot, you would not be an Incel in the first place.

Hef reminds me of Incels in that he believes that women have to play by a strict set of rules, while men have total freedom to do whatever they want.

Yes! Women must be young, beautiful, fit, submissive. Being educated, intelligent, hardworking, and independent are all seen as undesirable to incels & Hef. 

Incels annoy the hell out of me because they think everything is women's fault. Can women be awful and picky? Yes. There are some who only show interest in pretty boys and/or rich men. But most of us just like a nice guy who has a job. Women can find old, fat, and bald men incredibly sexy. If you can't find a woman, it's your personality. 

Hef's daughter always came across as this normal, intelligent woman. I'm so curious if she ever thought "man, my dad is fucked up." Maybe Hef's lifestyle was just what she was used to so it was normal to her?

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Incels annoy the hell out of me because they think everything is women's fault. Can women be awful and picky? Yes. There are some who only show interest in pretty boys and/or rich men. But most of us just like a nice guy who has a job. Women can find old, fat, and bald men incredibly sexy. If you can't find a woman, it's your personality. 

Yes, in the same breath Incels will complain about all the cold frigid women who refuse to sleep with them and then claim all women are dirty whores that are unworthy of marriage.

3 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Hef's daughter always came across as this normal, intelligent woman. I'm so curious if she ever thought "man, my dad is fucked up." Maybe Hef's lifestyle was just what she was used to so it was normal to her?

I noticed that Hef raised his own daughter to be independent and intelligent. I wonder what he would have thought if she wanted to become part of another pervy old man's harem.

[MsTree]

18 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

First let me say I am so sorry... its a horrible experience that I share with you that NO ONE should go through

 

when someone appears to victim blame it triggers me so badly cause I know what its like NOT to have people believe you. These women share a story and are made to feel like they are lying because they "got things" out of the situation .. yea they got royally screwed up and told they were liar's and to shut up because they lived a fabulous life and got put in magazines so therefore anything that happened to them shouldn't be brought up cause they were "asking for it" ...and people asking WHY NOW also bugs me .. you cant tell people how they should deal with the trauma they went through I didn't tell anyone about what happened to me (molestation/rape)  till a decade later doesn't mean what I was saying wasn't true just means i was fearful and dealing with it in my own way....and this was a multi billion dollar company that they were saying things about ...most of these stories from ALL of the girls are to similar to just be brushed off .. And it doesn't matter if she was there one day of her own free will or NOT he and the people around him helped to break these girls down and do what they did ....

I totally understand your triggers, and I'm sorry for both of us. Everyone's experience is different in how they deal with trauma. Some of us might be more mature mentally to deal with it, while others will need therapy and/or time to work it out. 

I don't like victim blaming either...however, I saw a common thread between Sondra & Holly that you might say is one of my triggers. BUT again, this is just based on MY experience. I wasn't in an abusive relationship very long before I realized exactly what was happening. And even though I was only a teenager at the time, I instinctively KNEW it was wrong and fled immediately. 

By the same token, I've seen relationships where after a few months, or even a year, some women know exactly what's going on, and yet they stay put. IOW, they KNEW it was wrong, and they even admit it, and yet they stayed. It makes no sense unless they figure there is something in it for them to stay and remain loyal...all the while continuing to do the very thing that disgusts them and makes them throw up. 

I know we'll probably never agree on their reasons for staying, but wanted you to know my train of thought and where it's coming from. 

 

[Gharlane]

12 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Hef's daughter always came across as this normal, intelligent woman. I'm so curious if she ever thought "man, my dad is fucked up." Maybe Hef's lifestyle was just what she was used to so it was normal to her?

I wondered about that as well. Maybe they will cover it in a future ep.

Hef has a couple sons, does he not? I wonder what their attitudes are?

13 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

What about the gay “bears?”

Did you mean "power bottom"?

 

14 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Magnify that in the gay world which is already super body and age conscious when you are considered out to pasture after 30 and god help you in you don’t have abs and pecs cause you might has well not exist. And don’t look for yourself in any media cause you are muscle or twink and there is no in-between 

It helps to be well-hung, heh heh, but yeah, I hear ya.

[princelina]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:45 AM, MsTree said:

And since Sondra DID recognize how things slowly escalated, she should have immediately said 'no'. In order to recognize that, she would have been in a sound mind. Nobody was holding a gun to her head. She only stayed because she thought her relationship was going to pay. And when she finally realized after 5 years that was never going to happen, she finally got up and walked out. 

I would say that what she recognizes now may not be what she recognized at the time.  When I was young and foolish I was in toxic relationships which I understand now, but at the time you'd have found me bleating "but I love him" 🙄 Then if you're in the relationship too long it's harder to get out of; you're worried about what will happen if it's a mistake, what will happen next, etc.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by princelina

[RealHousewife]

I found these articles interesting. 

https://toofab.com/2022/02/14/secrets-of-playboy-playmate-of-the-year/

"When I first arrived, it seemed like most of the women coming through who were testing for Playmate felt like they had to sleep with him to get Playmate of the Year," said Holly Madison, who lived in the mansion while dating Hef from 2001-2008.

"Not every single one of them did, there were a few exceptions," she added, "But I think a lot of people felt like they had to."

https://nypost.com/2022/02/07/ex-playboy-playmate-claims-she-aborted-hugh-hefners-devil-child-at-19/

A line there says the Shannon twins want to sue Playboy for emotional distress. 

[princelina]

16 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

I found these articles interesting. 

https://toofab.com/2022/02/14/secrets-of-playboy-playmate-of-the-year/

"When I first arrived, it seemed like most of the women coming through who were testing for Playmate felt like they had to sleep with him to get Playmate of the Year," said Holly Madison, who lived in the mansion while dating Hef from 2001-2008.

"Not every single one of them did, there were a few exceptions," she added, "But I think a lot of people felt like they had to."

https://nypost.com/2022/02/07/ex-playboy-playmate-claims-she-aborted-hugh-hefners-devil-child-at-19/

A line there says the Shannon twins want to sue Playboy for emotional distress. 

Hmmm.  I bet a lot of them felt like they had to sleep with him - but my gut feeling is still that they had to perform sexually while he was more involved with watching and "directing".  The woman in the article says he opened a dildo and gave her a wicked grin - for some reason I don't envision her having to sleep with him; just that she'd be humiliated and a dildo involved.  Good on her for not going for it.

As for the Shannon twins - all I'm going to say is we should sue them for the emotional distress of having to look at and listen to them. 

[Gharlane]

 

6 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

 

"When I first arrived, it seemed like most of the women coming through who were testing for Playmate felt like they had to sleep with him to get Playmate of the Year," said Holly Madison, who lived in the mansion while dating Hef from 2001-2008.

That rings a bell... and sounds like something Hef would encourage.🤔

 

6 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

A line there says the Shannon twins want to sue Playboy for emotional distress.

AKA "The Incest Twins". I remember those two were gross. 🤮

[Sweet-tea]

7 hours ago, princelina said:

Hmmm.  I bet a lot of them felt like they had to sleep with him - but my gut feeling is still that they had to perform sexually while he was more involved with watching and "directing".  The woman in the article says he opened a dildo and gave her a wicked grin - for some reason I don't envision her having to sleep with him; just that she'd be humiliated and a dildo involved.  Good on her for not going for it.

As for the Shannon twins - all I'm going to say is we should sue them for the emotional distress of having to look at and listen to them. 

I wonder if Pamela Anderson had to sleep with him. She was clearly one of his favorites. She has more Playboy covers than anyone. If she did, it was probably before she hit it big. 

I remember reading that for a long time Hef had to personally approve of every centerfold, even after he wasn’t actively involved in the running of the business. I guess they left him this to make him feel important. 

Which reminds me… I wonder who the owners are now. I didn’t realize the Hefners had sold the magazine until I saw the statement on the first episode of this show. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[qtpye]

30 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

I wonder if Pamela Anderson had to sleep with him. She was clearly one of his favorites. She has more Playboy covers than anyone. If she did, it was probably before she hit it big. 

I wonder if she feels positive about her experience with Hef?

I know there were some big stars that posed for Playboy but I think Pamela was the biggest star to come OUT of Playboy if you understand my meaning.

She would definitely be their Golden Girl.

I think Pam became what they were hoping to do with Dorothy Stratten. I am sure we will have an episode on her as the story was so tragic.

[RealHousewife]

9 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I wonder if Pamela Anderson had to sleep with him. She was clearly one of his favorites. She has more Playboy covers than anyone. If she did, it was probably before she hit it big. 

I remember reading that for a long time Hef had to personally approve of every centerfold, even after he wasn’t actively involved in the running of the business. I guess they left him this to make him feel important. 

Which reminds me… I wonder who the owners are now. I didn’t realize the Hefners had sold the magazine until I saw the statement on the first episode of this show. 

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think Pamela did. Pamela became a huge star, and men went crazy over her in the 90s. I think Hef knew giving her more covers would sell more magazines. He also seemed to genuinely hold Pamela up as his standard of beauty and said her beauty was similar to his other favorite, Marilyn Monroe. It never made sense to me though because they look nothing alike other than blonde hair.

I do recall Pamela saying she walked in on Hef with the girlfriends though. She mentioned being mesmerized, Hef being in great shape and seeing baby oil. She also showed up naked for his birthday during the GND era. I remember being shocked by that. 

8 hours ago, qtpye said:

I wonder if she feels positive about her experience with Hef?

I know there were some big stars that posed for Playboy but I think Pamela was the biggest star to come OUT of Playboy if you understand my meaning.

She would definitely be their Golden Girl.

I think Pam became what they were hoping to do with Dorothy Stratten. I am sure we will have an episode on her as the story was so tragic.

Pamela's always spoken very highly of Hef. I think she became way too huge a star for Hef to try anything. 

Yes, she was. Pamela's an international superstar. The others may have gotten some fame, but nothing like Pamela. I don't think Anna Nicole or Jenny McCarthy come close either. 

Yes, Dorothy was one of the most beautiful women ever imo and had star quality. What happened to her is heartbreaking. She was barely more than a kid who ended up in this crazy world. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by RealHousewife

[Sweet-tea]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:04 PM, RealHousewife said:

Yes, exactly what I meant. 

It’s even worse in your 50s. You’re ‘menopausal’ which is the kiss of death. Invisible, no longer sexy or desirable, the butt of ageist jokes. That’s been my experience anyway. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[princelina]

So I have some thoughts after this latest episode. 

First of all, I'm tired of the normalizing of what Hef did - that you'd have to "sleep with Hef" to be PMOTY.  Only that PJ said what it actually was - you'd have to show up in his bedroom with a variety of people of both sexes, dildos and video cameras and do whatever weird thing he wanted.  That is not the same as "sleeping with Hef" 😡

Second of all - Christie Hefner may be a bright and capable woman, but she was handed a job because of her dad (which I don't have a problem with - it was his family and his company) but she would never, ever have to deal with being groped/grinded upon/etc.  So she's very far removed from every other woman we are talking about.

Third - I think it was a very confusing time for everyone and hard to judge because today's standards are ingrained in our minds.  The sexual revolution/"women's liberation" seems like it had many aspects - from Hef's "sexually liberated" pretty naked girls who were making more money than their moms could dream of, to the opposite direction of women refusing to wear makeup/bras/shave their armpits/etc.  And for those women who were trying to work in corporate playboy - they were part of an organization that "celebrated women's sexual freedom" at a time when the "boys will be boys" attitudes were still unchallenged and I'm sure they at least partly believed it then too because it was the way things were - and they were to be "cool" and not "uptight" so when a guy made a joke about "getting any last night" I'm sure they felt like they should laugh it off and not be prudish and old fashioned, or if they brushed her breast or grabbed her rear they felt they had to laugh it off like a joke.  People talk about feeling that way in recent years; imagine how different and confusing it must have been 50 years ago.  And I also bet there were men at the time who made the dirty comments and took the hint when the women tried to brush them off, but of course they're not the ones who the ladies remember.  An example of changing mores - that Miki Garcia said she went into a bar full of men to ask for shampoo - in previous years a woman wouldn't have done that; she'd have inquired at the hotel desk.  Not that I'm accusing her of anything - just pointing out the rapid change in culture.  And I think these women are judging themselves based on today's values rather than what they were living through at the time.

I'm looking forward to next week seeing how Miki testifies about Playboy - it's apparently NOT just people coming out after HH died!

Edited February 22, 2022 by princelina

[MsTree]

Without rehashing certain sticky points re: my POV...this current episode confirms some of my opinions. For one, I noticed the difference between Micki Garcia and Sondra/Holly as they related their stories.

Micki knew exactly what she was getting into and stood her ground. But more importantly, when she was telling her stories (good, bad or indifferent), she stated the facts in a non-bitter way. She owned her behavior and even chuckled about certain incidents. Kudos Micki!

OTOH, Sondra/Holly related their stories with bitterness and anger. Totally playing the victim.

[Gharlane]

Quote

"The Corporate Game". The Playboy corporate world was billed as a welcoming place for women, but Playmate and eventual Director of Playboy Promotions Miki Garcia and Bunny Mother PJ Masten reveal the rampant sexual harassment they faced within it.

I'm getting a little bored because, TBH, is anyone surprised by this? It doesn't help that they pile up the commercials in the second half, which takes me out of the moment. That said, what a horrible place for a woman to work! 😱

 

7 hours ago, princelina said:

I think it was a very confusing time for everyone and hard to judge because today's standards are ingrained in our minds.  The sexual revolution/"women's liberation" seems like it had many aspects - from Hef's "sexually liberated" pretty naked girls who were making more money than their moms could dream of, to the opposite direction of women refusing to wear makeup/bras/shave their armpits/etc.  And for those women who were trying to work in corporate playboy - they were part of an organization that "celebrated women's sexual freedom" at a time when the "boys will be boys" attitudes were still unchallenged and I'm sure they at least partly believed it then too because it was the way things were - and they were to be "cool" and not "uptight" so when a guy made a joke about "getting any last night" I'm sure they felt like they should laugh it off and not be prudish and old fashioned, or if they brushed her breast or grabbed her rear they felt they had to laugh it off like a joke.  People talk about feeling that way in recent years; imagine how different and confusing it must have been 50 years ago. 

While watching this ep, I wondered how common this behavior was elsewhere. Was it more frequent at Playboy or did the company line make it more noticeable?  

 

7 hours ago, princelina said:

An example of changing mores - that Miki Garcia said she went into a bar full of men to ask for shampoo - in previous years a woman wouldn't have done that; she'd have inquired at the hotel desk. 

I wondered why she didn't ask at the front desk or call them from her room. Did hotels not do that back then, or was she unable to find anyone at the front desk? 
 

[pasdetrois]

Quote

While watching this ep, I wondered how common this behavior was elsewhere.

As I watched I thought "this behavior was everywhere, not just at Playboy." I experienced it personally (lewd remarks, physical grabbing, expectations that I would "put out," drunken co-workers or clients banging on my hotel room door late at night). My friends and I still talk about it sometimes. If a woman was remotely attractive she was a target. It was routine and predictable.

Instead of welcoming housewives/mothers to the workforce, the Mad Men generation thought thery were being handed playthings. Everyone normalized the behavior. If a woman complained, she was outcast and often threatened, including from other women who were experiencing the harassment.

There was an online post several years ago, during GND, about how many Playmates suffered tragedies due to that world - addiction, domestic violence, death. They were commodities who were used and discarded.

I have mixed feelings about some of the women who have appeared on this series, and who are speaking up in the media (e.g., Kimberly Hefner, Holly). Too little, too late. Yes the Playboy lifestyle was difficult and offensive, but they could have walked away or spoken up much sooner.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by pasdetrois

[snickers]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:38 AM, RealHousewife said:

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think Pamela did. Pamela became a huge star, and men went crazy over her in the 90s. I think Hef knew giving her more covers would sell more magazines. He also seemed to genuinely hold Pamela up as his standard of beauty and said her beauty was similar to his other favorite, Marilyn Monroe. It never made sense to me though because they look nothing alike other than blonde hair.

I'm kind of thinking Pamela didn't either, I think that's why she was never playmate of the year.

 

Was Jenny McCarthy or Anna Nicole Smith ever playmate of the year? If they were not, I would say they didn't either 😑

 

I'm curious because I don't think the series has talked about this yet, what year did the playboy clubs shut down? the 80's? the 90's? Growing up I don't remember hearing much about them, I remember Playboy being just about the magazine (I remember my first boyfriend telling me, "their articles are good!")

ahh the days.....

[Athena5217]

9 hours ago, snickers said:

I'm curious because I don't think the series has talked about this yet, what year did the playboy clubs shut down? the 80's? the 90's? Growing up I don't remember hearing much about them, I remember Playboy being just about the magazine (I remember my first boyfriend telling me, "their articles are good!")

The U.S. Playboy Clubs shut down in the 80s. The last club was in Manila and it closed in 1991. Then there were some reopenings in the 2000s, but they all closed. I think one of the GND episodes covered a reopened club. I have memories of the girlfriends wearing the original costumes. I hope the clubs are gone for good. They fostered a sexist atmosphere that led to the women working there being harassed and assaulted. They make Hooters look innocent.

[Gharlane]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:27 AM, qtpye said:

I think Pam became what they were hoping to do with Dorothy Stratten. I am sure we will have an episode on her as the story was so tragic.

They briefly spoke about Dorothy Stratten. I didn't realize it turned out as it did, with her boyfriend(?) being a violent pimp. 😱

 

On 2/18/2022 at 11:38 AM, RealHousewife said:

Pamela's always spoken very highly of Hef. I think she became way too huge a star for Hef to try anything. 

That seems to be a pattern with these people. 🤔

 

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

The U.S. Playboy Clubs shut down in the 80s. The last club was in Manila and it closed in 1991.

In the Philippines? Wow, that place must have been like one of the bars in Tijuana one hears about. 😱

 

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I think one of the GND episodes covered a reopened club. I have memories of the girlfriends wearing the original costumes.

Yeah, I remember them going to Vegas to open a club but it wasn't the entire building, like the earlier ones were. I remember them wearing the bunny suits and Kendra pressing her breasts against their hotel room window for some people outside. 🤦‍♂️

[Me from ME]

Sorry for misremembering but that trip to  Las Vegas she got naked and went into the infinity pool.

In an earlier episode she flashed the window washer in LV and, if memory serves, she flashed some workers on the train tracks in addition to flashing some people in Paris.

[chediavolo]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:47 PM, Sweet-tea said:

I think Hef having a 15 year-old girl up in his bedroom speaks volumes. I have nothing positive to say about the guy. He used women, especially young women. He wouldn’t have anything to do with a woman over 30 in most cases. He even joked about it. 

In the books the sex is described. It was really gross. I’ll spare you the details but there’s one part that says they would chant things like, “Do it to her, daddy!” when he was with one of the women and sick stuff like that. 

They all had sex with Hef, and that includes Kendra. She may not want acknowledge it, but no way did he let girlfriends live with him and not have sex with him. According to the books, there were certain nights they were “on” and others they were off. 

The number one girlfriend was first and did the most. She also got to actually sleep with Hef, whereas the others just showed up for the sex show and then left. But it was mostly a performance for Hef. None of them women enjoyed it. The only positive from what they described is it didn’t take that long. They also said he’d given them quaaludes before and he’d take Viagra. (Interestingly, the book says it was usually gay porn showing on the TV in the room.)

The women got an “allowance” for living with him and all their plastic surgery, hair appointments, nails and some clothes paid for. So in essence, they were escorts or hookers, not girlfriends. The way it’s described in the books, it was like a job for most of them. It was all to make Hef look like a stud, going around with a bevy of 20-something blondes. More like a harem really. 

IIRC, Bridget was married when she became one of the girlfriends. There was talk on the forums about it. I think it was TVOP then.  She remained married but separated for the time she was on GND. He met Kendra when she was really young, maybe 18. She was in bad shape practically living on the street, so perhaps he did save her life. 

And of course, Pamela became a star partly due to Playboy, so it makes sense that she doesn’t want to say anything negative about him. 

Holly glossed over a lot of her role in this. She went after Hef. She wanted fame and all the attention she got. She wasn’t a victim here, at least not at first. And like they said, she could’ve left whenever she wanted. He didn’t keep them prisoners. He paid their expenses, so she would’ve had to find a way to provide for herself. But she chose that road. 

The other thing she left out is she REALLY wanted to be a Playmate of the month. It was a big deal for her, and he strung her along for years saying no. Then when he finally relented, he put the other two on the cover with her and tied it into the show. So he threw Holly a few crumbs, but that wasn’t what she wanted. She wanted to be the star. Perhaps she used her number one girlfriend position to her advantage, and that alienated some of the other women. It would make sense. She makes it sound like she was the victim of a bunch of mean girls. What was her role in it? 

She also wanted to be married and have children with him, but he kept putting her off. So she is ret-conning some of what happened IMO. 

In terms of what the male friends saw.. well of course. They wouldn’t necessarily see how Hef treated the women when he was alone with them. Men can be totally different with guys than with women. His male friends not seeing anything doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

One thing that startled me: the butler said Hef drank 25-30 Cokes a day. And ate a bunch of candy. I think it was M&Ms. Wow! I mean, 30 regular Cokes a day? All that sugar! That’s just unbelievable. What is it, maybe 100 calories per soda? That’s a low estimate, but that would mean he got around 3500 calories a day just from soda! 

The one older ex-girlfriend, the blonde. I can’t remember her name. I don’t know what kind of surgery she had but she doesn’t look good at all. Her face looks unnatural. 

Jesus, they all look unnatural. They are! The woman who was a girlfriend in the 70’s is driving me batty with her ill fitting dentures. I Wonder if any  of those bleached blond bimbos hair just started breaking off in chunks. Non of this series so far is too shocking.  He was an opportunist ugly pig who couldn’t get a woman on the merits of his personality so he built himself an empire and took advantage of young girls. 
As for the girls, holy shit what a bunch of damaged females.  They all destroyed their faces and redesigned their bodies with plastic. Hell with them, they are one leading causes of girls having such negative body images. Yep all these women could have left. they wanted the fame and the money & the lifestyle. I have no sympathy either. I do wish that Hef would’ve still been around today to get some of that me too coverage! His friend is a fucking pig also. 

[Sweet-tea]

44 minutes ago, chediavolo said:

Jesus, they all look unnatural. They are! The woman who was a girlfriend in the 70’s is driving me batty with her ill fitting dentures. I Wonder if any  of those bleached blond bimbos hair just started breaking off in chunks. Non of this series so far is too shocking.  He was an opportunist ugly pig who couldn’t get a woman on the merits of his personality so he built himself an empire and took advantage of young girls. 
As for the girls, holy shit what a bunch of damaged females.  They all destroyed their faces and redesigned their bodies with plastic. Hell with them, they are one leading causes of girls having such negative body images. Yep all these women could have left. they wanted the fame and the money & the lifestyle. I have no sympathy either. I do wish that Hef would’ve still been around today to get some of that me too coverage! His friend is a fucking pig also. 

It disturbed me when Holly said she thought she looked fat while she was on GND, and then they showed footage and she was clearly very slim. 

[Sweet-tea]

Anna Nicole Smith and Jenny McCarthy were both PMOTY.

 

https://www.listal.com/list/playmate-of-the-year-fullfathom

Edited February 25, 2022 by Sweet-tea
Sorry for the double post!

[Nicmar]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:54 PM, snickers said:

I'm kind of thinking Pamela didn't either, I think that's why she was never playmate of the year.

 

Was Jenny McCarthy or Anna Nicole Smith ever playmate of the year? If they were not, I would say they didn't either 😑

 

I'm curious because I don't think the series has talked about this yet, what year did the playboy clubs shut down? the 80's? the 90's? Growing up I don't remember hearing much about them, I remember Playboy being just about the magazine (I remember my first boyfriend telling me, "their articles are good!")

ahh the days.....

My husbands Aunt was working the Playboy club in Chicago in the late 60's , when her mother found about that, she her son to go get her because she heard rumors of girls turning to prostitution and also the mob like to hang out there.

[Sweet-tea]

I’m very suspicious about Hef and what happened with Pam Anderson. Makes no sense she never made PMOTY unless she turned down the “meeting” with him. 

I had forgotten about Shannon Tweed. She was so pretty. 

Also surprised that Barbi Benton was never even Playmate of the Month.

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+was+barbi+benton+in+playboy&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS805US805&oq=when+was+barbi+benton+in+playboy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.8661j1j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Edited February 25, 2022 by Sweet-tea

[RealHousewife]

45 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

I’m very suspicious about Hef and what happened with Pam Anderson. Makes no sense she never made PMOTY unless she turned down the “meeting” with him. 

I had forgotten about Shannon Tweed. She was so pretty. 

Also surprised that Barbi Benton was never even Playmate of the Month.

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+was+barbi+benton+in+playboy&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS805US805&oq=when+was+barbi+benton+in+playboy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.8661j1j7&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

I'm not sure. Pam seems to love Hef too much for him to have been creepy towards her, although it's certainly possible.

Honestly guys, while I don't doubt sleeping with Hef helped different Playmates, I really don't think they all did. (I suspect it was more of a thing around the time Holly became a gf.) I think beauty, marketability, popularity, all of that played a part. The woman who won over Pam may have been considered more unique for Playboy. When I watched GND, Sara Underwood won, and men just loved her. Dasha Astafieva was the Anniversary Playmate, and I think she might be the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Hef loved Dorothy Stratten, but he thought she was too young, so he picked another woman over her. I think a lot played into it. 

[Sweet-tea]

According to the list, Dorothy Stratten was 1979 PMOTY.

[RealHousewife]

13 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

According to the list, Dorothy Stratten was 1979 PMOTY.

Sorry, I should have been more specific in my post. Dorothy lost out on Anniversary Playmate. 

[1011101010001]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:45 AM, Gharlane said:

They briefly spoke about Dorothy Stratten. I didn't realize it turned out as it did, with her boyfriend(?) being a violent pimp.

There is a very dark movie about her called Star 80.

[MCMLXXVII]

On 2/24/2022 at 11:45 AM, Gharlane said:

Yeah, I remember them going to Vegas to open a club but it wasn't the entire building, like the earlier ones were. I remember them wearing the bunny suits and Kendra pressing her breasts against their hotel room window for some people outside. 🤦‍♂️

Yes, it was in the reality-tv friendly Palms Hotel, it opened in 2006 and closed in 2012. Wikpedia

[RealHousewife]

Miki is 75 now. She's still gorgeous. 

[1011101010001]

26 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

Miki is 75 now. She's still gorgeous. 

Maybe it was the hair but she was giving me a Liz Taylor vibe.