Winning Time: The Rise Of The Lakers Dynasty - General Discussion

[BetterButter]

 

[DanaK]

Debuts Sunday March 6 at 9pm http://thefutoncritic.com/news/2022/02/09/hbo-original-drama-series-winning-time-the-rise-of-the-lakers-dynasty-debuts-march-6-424311/20220209hbo02/

[BetterButter]

 

[DanaK]

Episode 1 title: "The Swan". No press release on the plot

[Marley]

I’m liking it so far. Crazy how the draft used to be.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Marley

[cardigirl]

I enjoyed this too.  I want to see some games between the Celtics and the Lakers (aka Bird and Johnson). Liking how the show is telling this story. 

 

[sjankis630]

I want to check this out as I am looking for a show to distract me.

[khyber]

Seems good so far. Amazing flashbacks for me to the 70s.  Also, assuming the first scene has to do with the HIV diagnosis since the time frame fits.

[SallyAlbright]

Overall I liked this, I love basketball and the time period and John C. Reilly and Jason Clarke are great, as are the previously unknown to me actors playing Magic and Norm. 

I do, though, seem to have a general problem with Adam McKay as a director. His work always interests me, but then it's almost like he thinks his audience is too stupid to understand the point he's making so he beats us over the head with it. I understood the subtext of the media comparing Bird and Johnson without him writing WHITE WHITE WHITE BLACK BLACK BLACK across the screen. His films and shows often have things like that, and it takes me out of the show every time, like he's smugly sitting there yelling "LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM!". Same with the breaking of the fourth wall and the characters talking to the audience. It can feel different and fun in small doses, but McKay often overdoes it.

Luckily, I don't think he directed any of the remaining episodes (just produced) so I'll probably be able to enjoy the show without some of his quirks being so prevalent. 

[MerBearStare]

8 minutes ago, SallyAlbright said:

I do, though, seem to have a general problem with Adam McKay as a director. His work always interests me, but then it's almost like he thinks his audience is too stupid to understand the point he's making so he beats us over the head with it. I understood the subtext of the media comparing Bird and Johnson without him writing WHITE WHITE WHITE BLACK BLACK BLACK across the screen. His films and shows often have things like that, and it takes me out of the show every time, like he's smugly sitting there yelling "LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM!". Same with the breaking of the fourth wall and the characters talking to the audience. It can feel different and fun in small doses, but McKay often overdoes it.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I 100% agree with everything you wrote. Adam McKay is too clever by half. Breaking the fourth wall made sense for a movie like The Big Short, where they had to find a way to explain economic concepts most people know nothing about, but here it felt totally unnecessary and a bit lazy. There were also scenes, like where Gaby Hoffman's character takes her hair down before going into the owner's office, where it was pretty clear what was happening and then the characters give a knowing look to the camera just in case we were too stupid to pick up on what was obvious.

In spite of that, I really enjoyed this first episode. The show's also really well cast. I read in the Vulture recap that the actor who plays Norm Nixon is Norm's actual son (and Debbie Allen is his mom!). 

[sjankis630]

I watched part of this. It looks pretty good but is anyone put off by the overuse of film grain and muddy colors? I know this takes place in the late 1970s but do the colors have to make my TV look like it did in the late 1970s?

 

[Marley]

Yea I wasn’t a fan of the talking to the camera stuff either. It’s not needed for this show. I’m not an idiot lol.

I don’t like too much graininess either. I just tried to ignore it tho.

[MrWhyt]

Dr. Buss could easily be a slimey character, but JCM makes him very likable. Took me forever to recognize Michael Chiklis as Red Auerbach.

Edited March 14, 2022 by MrWhyt

[sjankis630]

Oh well there doesn't seem to be much interest here for this series. I watched the second episode and quite frankly was a bit bored. I am gonna hope that this series has actual game footage with the stars playing and it is not just back office stuff. As much as I like John C Reilly - and I think he is great here - this is supposed to be about basketball right?

 

[Dminches]

5 hours ago, sjankis630 said:

Oh well there doesn't seem to be much interest here for this series. I watched the second episode and quite frankly was a bit bored. I am gonna hope that this series has actual game footage with the stars playing and it is not just back office stuff. As much as I like John C Reilly - and I think he is great here - this is supposed to be about basketball right?

 

It is about the evolution of professional basketball as a money-making enterprise, not just the game itself. Buss and Stern turned basketball into a popular entertainment option to compete with football and baseball.  That's what it is about.

Having grown up during this era I am really enjoying this.  It is quirky and a bit tongue-in-check but I know all the characters from way back when so this is a lot of fun to watch.

 

[cambridgeguy]

Anyone who wants game footage can just hop on Youtube and watch the real deal.  This is going to be about the stuff that wasn't caught on camera.  Just wait until they start up The Forum Club, Magic decides he hates his coach, they choke away the 84 finals, etc.  These days I think the narrative is that Magic was successful from day 1 and kept it up until he retired, but there were a lot of speed bumps until he really hit his stride in the mid 80s.

[Dminches]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Anyone who wants game footage can just hop on Youtube and watch the real deal.  This is going to be about the stuff that wasn't caught on camera.  Just wait until they start up The Forum Club, Magic decides he hates his coach, they choke away the 84 finals, etc.  These days I think the narrative is that Magic was successful from day 1 and kept it up until he retired, but there were a lot of speed bumps until he really hit his stride in the mid 80s.

Assuming it is accurate, what I didn't know was how much of whack job West was. 

 

[Dandesun]

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Anyone who wants game footage can just hop on Youtube and watch the real deal.  This is going to be about the stuff that wasn't caught on camera.  Just wait until they start up The Forum Club, Magic decides he hates his coach, they choke away the 84 finals, etc.  These days I think the narrative is that Magic was successful from day 1 and kept it up until he retired, but there were a lot of speed bumps until he really hit his stride in the mid 80s.

Magic did hit bumps along the way but he is the only rookie to win the MVP award for the Finals. So he came out of the gate strong, he subbed as center in the Finals and got 42 points in... game 6 I think?

Also, I get that this is supposed to be highlighting the Lakers rise in the 80s as well as the Celtics rivalry but it's interesting that they didn't meet in the Finals until 1984. They're really leaning on the Bird vs Magic thing as well as Jerry Buss meeting with Red Auerbach and I get all of that because of the established Celtics dynasty and how huge that NCAA championship between Bird and Magic was but it's still funny to me that they won't meet in the Finals for 4 years in the show's timeline.

[Marley]

I’m liking the show but it could move a bit faster for me. Seems very slow going right now. I don’t want it to zip by but I want more to happen. I guess it’s only 2 episodes but seems like both episodes were kind of the same.

[xaxat]

I'm out. I didn't even finish episode 2.

It's really unfortunate because the Showtime Lakers where one of the most important teams in the history of sports, for a wide variety of reasons. I would have preferred a documentary.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm just starting this up, and who ever the casting person is should get a nobel prize for how the actors' likenesses are so spot on. I mean, I could tell who everyone is before they even said. 

I was reciting the Airplane monologue with Jabbar. I love that one. 

I kind of remember the NBA in the early 80s, but I didn't know the Lakers were kind of on a downslide in 1980. I was in New England at the time so it was all Boston, Philly, and New York.

On 3/14/2022 at 1:46 PM, Dandesun said:

Also, I get that this is supposed to be highlighting the Lakers rise in the 80s as well as the Celtics rivalry but it's interesting that they didn't meet in the Finals until 1984.

The 76ers were a juggernaut back then, and Boston basically needed Dr J to get old before they could get past them. 

I don't know if it's true to history, but I do like Magic being a little more savvy than I would have thought. I didn't realize he was only a junior in college at the time, and having the out of going back to college and entering the draft the next year is a fair bargaining position. 

Magic was the first actual 'big' point guard. I do like the kind of technical discussions about the game on that level. 

Also, again, not sure about history, but I like the easy rapport with Buss and Magic. 

Was West that huge of a drunk?

Edited March 19, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[SallyAlbright]

On 3/14/2022 at 11:38 AM, Dminches said:

Assuming it is accurate, what I didn't know was how much of whack job West was. 

 

Sounds like it's not. His family and friends are very upset: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/jerry-west-arn-tellem-winning-time-guest-column-1235113928/

I didn't realize that none of the major characters (other than Norm, whose son is playing him) had anything to do with the show and are pretty openly against it. The Lakers organization refused to participate and is refusing to comment, but apparently Magic and Kareem are not happy with it either. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I read Jerry West's autobiography "West By West" and it goes into detail about his struggles with depression. He grew up in a very abusive household. He also had a rep as the stern disciplinarian behind Showtime, whereas Buss was throwing orgy parties for Magic.

I like this series. I don;t expect it to be a documentary, and I like the portrayal of Magic as slicker than he'd let on. I've observed Magic for a number of years and while he is very charming and charismatic, there's something slightly two-faced about him. Apparently he had a big role in getting Pat Riley fired. 

One cool thing about Magic that I only got from reading books on the subject was that Magic wasn't always the beloved Lakers superstar. Early in his career he got the nickname "Tragic Johnson" and was known for making some bone-headed plays in big games. He was someone who had to work very hard on his game.

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I like this series. I don;t expect it to be a documentary, and I like the portrayal of Magic as slicker than he'd let on. I've observed Magic for a number of years and while he is very charming and charismatic, there's something slightly two-faced about him. Apparently he had a big role in getting Pat Riley fired. 

One cool thing about Magic that I only got from reading books on the subject was that Magic wasn't always the beloved Lakers superstar. Early in his career he got the nickname "Tragic Johnson" and was known for making some bone-headed plays in big games. He was someone who had to work very hard on his game.

If the show last for multiple seasons they'll have a lot of fun diving into it.  Spoilers for history, I suppose

Spoiler

80-81: Magic gets hurt, the Lakers end up losing in the first round.  Oh, and at some point in 81 he'll have his first kid, whose mom isn't Cookie.

81-82: Oh boy.  This is when Magic demands a trade, Paul Westhead is canned, Buss tries to set up a bizarre RIley/West co-coach situation that West immediately shoots down, and eventually the Lakers end up winning the championship.

82-83: James Worthy shows up but gets hurt before the playoffs and they end up getting swept by the Sixers in Finals.  This is Nixon's last year with the team, and the circumstances around his departure (let's just say he and West weren't exactly parting on the best terms) are ripe for TV.

83-84: We finally get the Lakers/Celtics matchup and Magic helps blow game 4.  This is when the Tragic Johnson nickname comes up.

And many years after, Magic wasn't the only one who got Riley fired - the entire team was fed up with him since he had morphed into a dictatorial hardass. 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by cambridgeguy

[DoctorAtomic]

Are they planning multiple seasons? 
I didn't know the Buss went after Tark first. And I didn't even know Riley was around back then. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[cambridgeguy]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

And I didn't even know Riley was around back then. 

Chick needed someone who would occasionally interject "you're right, Chick". 

Speaking of Chick, fun fact - according to Perlman's book, he was present at the sand dab lunch and convinced Cooke that Magic should just be allowed to get a burger (rather than Buss)  The level of influence he had was extraordinary. 

[Lady Whistleup]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Chick needed someone who would occasionally interject "you're right, Chick". 

Speaking of Chick, fun fact - according to Perlman's book, he was present at the sand dab lunch and convinced Cooke that Magic should just be allowed to get a burger (rather than Buss)  The level of influence he had was extraordinary. 

Some history behind Winning Time:

1) the series is heavily influenced by Norm Nixon, a guard that was on the Lakers when Magic arrived. Magic and Norm did not get along and Norm was traded. This might explain why Magic is not keen on this series.

Also, Jerry West coached Norm for a few unhappy seasons and they butted heads. Again, Jerry West probably isn;t fond of this series because of Norm.

[Stan39]

Great actors and great filming. That being said, a show about the birth of the Showtime Lakers should be more fun than this. Magic Johnson is racked with self doubt and insecure, Pat Riley is a loser with daddy issues, Jerry West is a rageaholic with daddy issues, and Jeannie Buss is (I guess) the brilliant, young white women who’s going to solve everyone’s problems (if they would JUST listen to her). Oh, and she has daddy issues. 
 

I feel like this is a bit of a bait-and-switch as the trailers and previews clearly portray a show about a fast flying NBA team from the early 80s that partied hard and would become a great team. Instead, it’s falling into the same Hollywood tropes every show and movie is pushing these days. It could be so much better than it is. A shame. 

[Lady Whistleup]

The issue is the actors don't have the looks and charisma of the real-life people.

Look at this footage of Magic in his first game. The reporter is practically salivating over his "smile that lights up tv screens."

These were just really, really good-looking, charismatic people.

Jerry West. The crooked nose made him look like Montgomery Clift, but in fact it was years of his nose being broken:

Pat Riley. Look at the effortless symetry of his face:

Here's Kareem and Magic. Kareem is like that good-looking jock who didn't know he was good-looking:

[StatMom]

While I get that actors will never look exactly like the real life person, the casting of Brody as Riley is ridiculously and distractingly bad, looks wise. It takes me right out of any scene he’s in. The awful fake mustache doesn’t help either. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I only have memories of Riley as a coach, but old pics of Riley at the end of the playing days, there's a decent look with Brody. I actually think they did a really good job casting. I could pick out who was who easy enough. It's largely no-win casting such iconic figures in pro basketball. I think it's a good move to have relatively 'unknowns' for Magic and Kareem.  

[hatchetgirl]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:40 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

The issue is the actors don't have the looks and charisma of the real-life people.

Look at this footage of Magic in his first game. The reporter is practically salivating over his "smile that lights up tv screens."

These were just really, really good-looking, charismatic people.

Jerry West. The crooked nose made him look like Montgomery Clift, but in fact it was years of his nose being broken:

Pat Riley. Look at the effortless symetry of his face:

Here's Kareem and Magic. Kareem is like that good-looking jock who didn't know he was good-looking:

Young Magic is adorable!  I was a kid watching the adults watch basketball through this time, but I will always have a young crush on Coach Pat Riley.  LOL

I'm enjoying the show so far, it could pick up the pace a bit.  I have only seen episode 1 and 2.  I'm not looking forward to Brody as my girl crush!

[Marley]

I’m still watching but barely. The show is going way too slow. 

Young Jerry West looks kind of hot.

I kind of despise Magic Johnson but the actor playing him seems good.

[DoctorAtomic]

I liked the technical breakdown of 'classical' versus 'jazz'. Basketball wasn't my sport, but I couldn't stand always calling a play, getting to a spot, etc. Not that you have to run all the time though; you can bring it up fast and just keep cutting and moving. 

I liked McKinney saying when Kareem gets the ball everyone stops to watch him work. The ball should flow through him. It's almost like McKinney was running a proto-triangle. You still need set plays when you need them though, after a stoppage, etc. 

I like the actor playing Kareem too. I don't think he's opposed to the change in offense, but he's kind of internalizing what's going on. I actually thinks he likes Magic. 

Game got *tight* with Magic and Norm on the same squad. 

[Lady Whistleup]

One thing that has really changed is the attire of the coaches on the sidelines. Pat Riley always wore Armani suits. I knew it was a different era when I saw Coach K on the sidelines this year wearing a long-sleeved polo, track pants, and sneakers.

Then:

Now:

[cambridgeguy]

Riley always made it a point to dress impeccably.  There were plenty of other coaches who had a less refined fashion sense even before they lifted the dress code.  See Doug Moe.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's one part of the show I'm looking forward to - Riley right now is all disheveled. I can't wait to see how this transformation to slick Armani happens. I only know 'Showtime' as Riley. The NBA wasn't really on back then, and it was all Celtics where I lived. I wouldn't have seen the Lakers until 1984. When NESN came online, it was all Boston games, but you could see more teams. 

College coaches don't necessarily dress up like the NBA. Bobby Knight had his sweater; Tark had the towel. I think Pitino was one of the first in college to dress sharp. Calipari did too. 

Is anyone watching the Rick Fox segments at the end? 

Edited March 31, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[ninjago]

This show is kind of slow, but I like it all right.  Quincy Isaiah is likable as Magic, but, God, he looks so much like Pete Davidson.

[grawlix]

Traditionally it has always been the norm for coaches wear business attire during games, symbolically denoting the difference between players and management.  I think college coaches adopted a less restrictive attire after the Coaches Versus Cancer campaign started.  Coaches wore tennis shoes with their suits in support of Jim Valvano's fight with Cancer.

 

Given the depiction of the Buss family in this series, it would not surprise me if the show suggests that Jerry or Jeanie had a hand with Riley's choice of Armani attire.

[Slade347]

Coaches started wearing less formal attire during the pandemic and that dress code has stuck even as fans have come back to arenas. I don't mind it, but I suspect I might be in the minority with that opinion.

I'm really enjoying this show and cast, although I do wonder just far into the Lakers timeline they're going to go in the remaining episodes.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Slade347

[DoctorAtomic]

After all that Kareem drinks frozen Minute Maid. Brilliant! And the actor has a PhD. 

Does Buss own the Forum too? That's not usual for owners to own the venue is it? I guess most places now are multiple purpose, but I didn't know about back then. 

I like the actor playing Kareem and how much he just seethes. (There's a documentary on Kareem on HBO max that's really good.)

I liked that we saw the end of the first game after seeing the you tube clip (they showed it in the documentary too. Real Kareem was a little more low key.)

I had no idea Paula Abdul was the first Laker Girl. 

Looks like they're zipping up the time line into 1984 quick. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[hatchetgirl]

On 3/30/2022 at 7:53 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

One thing that has really changed is the attire of the coaches on the sidelines. Pat Riley always wore Armani suits. I knew it was a different era when I saw Coach K on the sidelines this year wearing a long-sleeved polo, track pants, and sneakers.

Then:

Now:

Another reason my child girl crush on Riley lives on...  A man in an Armani suit.  Meeee-ouch!

[cambridgeguy]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:34 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Looks like they're zipping up the time line into 1984 quick. 

If by quick you mean in a few seasons, then absolutely.  There's a huge amount to get into before then that wouldn't make sense to yada yada through.

[DoctorAtomic]

Spoiler

The midseason trailer would suggest otherwise. 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Lady Whistleup]

The stuff between Magic and Cookie was apparently pretty accurate, according to Magic's own autobiography.

[Slade347]

Winning Time has been renewed for a second season.

Regarding the rest of this season, 

Spoiler

Rolling Stone TV critic Alan Sepinwall tweeted that critics have seen eight of the ten episodes and they still haven't started the 1980 playoffs by the end of those episodes. 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I finished episode 5 and had somehow never known about Jack McKinney's tenure as Lakers coach. What a sad accident.

[DoctorAtomic]

Basketball wasn't on as much back then, and being where I was, it was mostly Boston, New York, Philadelphia. So even in the papers, the west wasn't covered. 

I don't think I saw the Lakers until 84. I feel like I must have seen them against the 76ers. That was already Riley. I figured he was always there. I never knew McKinney at all and even that he invented showtime. I'm sure the news of his passing would have made it out to the east coast, but I was too young then. 

 

[Marley]

McKinney didn’t die til 2018. I went on a googling spree about him the other day. 

I started liking the show more the last episode but I’m not totally into it yet. I’ll keep watching tho.

I was reading an article about Magic Johnson being against the show.

[Lady Whistleup]

45 minutes ago, Marley said:

McKinney didn’t die til 2018. I went on a googling spree about him the other day. 

I started liking the show more the last episode but I’m not totally into it yet. I’ll keep watching tho.

I was reading an article about Magic Johnson being against the show.

It's because this show is heavily from the POV of Norm Nixon, the guard that Magic displaced.

Although they were all at Kareems 75th birthday party last night:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcJvyCAguaj/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcIcGb1LpQ0/

James Worthy still looks good.