S03.E08: Chiantishire

[RedDelicious]

10 hours ago, John M said:

Would he though? Again, I think that is the point.

I think it even went deeper than that, when you think about the reference above to Logan telling Kendall he's not a killer. I think Kendall was trying to fake Logan out, and Logan knew exactly what Kendall was trying to do, but he orchestrated the mindf*ck with Iverson anyway.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, John M said:

Would he though? Again, I think that is the point.

Whether or not Kendall would let his kid eat some poison seems pretty dependent on whether Kendall would ever be poisoning his dad's food, and the answer to that is clearly no. I didn't see any tension in that scene about whether or not there was any real poison in the food.

1 hour ago, rhygirl720 said:

Ken, it just hit me this episode, but I think he suffers from a mood disorder, bi-polar, and has been self-medicating his whole life. My take is he passed out and will not die but might be spending time in a Swiss clinic getting healthy. His behavior never made sense to me until I viewed through that lens. If he does get healthy, he will be a match for Logan I believe.

 

I know it wasn't meant this way and maybe it's wrong to say it, but it just feels like an excuse for Kendall's behavior to be any actual disorder. It feels like he's carefully written to be who he is because of his personality plus his upbringing. He clearly has cycled through manic/depressive phases, but it seems like that's the emotions and the drugs doing that instead of the other way around. Nobody seems to reference Kendall being erratic this way in the past--he wasn't even in the first season.

1 hour ago, SG429 said:

It is entirely possible that no one on set was actually looking at any dick pic at all. The actual image may easily be added post-production. Acting!

Good point! Yes, of course they wouldn't have to look at it. Though my point still stands that KK insisting that it be his dick used onscreen would get a hard no on the same grounds. None of your co-workers need to see your dick if they watch the ep themselves.

2 hours ago, dmc said:

“Kendall floats away: The big question of course is… did Ken die? Was he testing out his father’s theory of how long it took “the boy” to drown? One thing I know is that HBO is not sending screeners for the finale so anything we read is just speculation. As Lainey said to me last night, if anyone can do it (kill off a lead character), it’s showrunner Jesse Armstrong. Kendall has backed himself into a corner and there are only so many times he can betray his father and go back. If he is out of the company, he is out of the family (he would be even less valuable to them than Connor, who is powerless but also mildly liked). This ending makes sense for Kendall as it’s what they’ve been building towards all series. The New Yorker profile with Jeremy Strong, which dropped on Sunday, also makes a lot of sense in context. J. Cameron Smith said that the finale was devastating.”

I don't know, I'm open to whatever JA thinks is right, but it seems really tricky to pull off tonally. It's a show about bunch of rich people who are practically sociopathic in their selfishness and struggle to show feeling for anyone but their domineering father, who's even crueler than they are. And it's a comedy.

So what happens if the ineffectual son ineffectuals himself to death? Are they experiencing an actual consequence from that? Do they suddenly discover real human connections? 

I guess, to me it seems like yes, the season has obviously been written in a way that would obviously lead to Kendall's suicide, only it's happening in a show where none of the characters have the emotional notes to react to suicide in a very meaningful way. Meanwhile, we lose a main character out of the mix, giving them less to maneuver with. I don't think the audience's reaction would be that different either. "Wow, they killed a main character" is different from "OMG, Ned!"

Kendall being written into a corner really means very little on a show where all the characters live in corners, like characters in a video game whose players can't really work the controller. Roman and Shiv currently think they're going someplace now, but so did Kendall in S1.

 

[dmc]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Whether or not Kendall would let his kid eat some poison seems pretty dependent on whether Kendall would ever be poisoning his dad's food, and the answer to that is clearly no. I didn't see any tension in that scene about whether or not there was any real poison in the food.

I know it wasn't meant this way and maybe it's wrong to say it, but it just feels like an excuse for Kendall's behavior to be any actual disorder. It feels like he's carefully written to be who he is because of his personality plus his upbringing. He clearly has cycled through manic/depressive phases, but it seems like that's the emotions and the drugs doing that instead of the other way around. Nobody seems to reference Kendall being erratic this way in the past--he wasn't even in the first season.

Good point! Yes, of course they wouldn't have to look at it. Though my point still stands that KK insisting that it be his dick used onscreen would get a hard no on the same grounds. None of your co-workers need to see your dick if they watch the ep themselves.

I don't know, I'm open to whatever JA thinks is right, but it seems really tricky to pull off tonally. It's a show about bunch of rich people who are practically sociopathic in their selfishness and struggle to show feeling for anyone but their domineering father, who's even crueler than they are. And it's a comedy.

So what happens if the ineffectual son ineffectuals himself to death? Are they experiencing an actual consequence from that? Do they suddenly discover real human connections? 

I guess, to me it seems like yes, the season has obviously been written in a way that would obviously lead to Kendall's suicide, only it's happening in a show where none of the characters have the emotional notes to react to suicide in a very meaningful way. Meanwhile, we lose a main character out of the mix, giving them less to maneuver with. I don't think the audience's reaction would be that different either. "Wow, they killed a main character" is different from "OMG, Ned!"

Kendall being written into a corner really means very little on a show where all the characters live in corners, like characters in a video game whose players can't really work the controller. Roman and Shiv currently think they're going someplace now, but so did Kendall in S1.

 

I don’t know that this is happening it’s just a lot of speculation until we see the episode. I posted it less because I think it’s going to happen because I’m not sure and more because I think reviewers are responding to the fact that Kendall has sort of run out of storylines.  
 

From a story standpoint, what’s next for him?

Season 1 he first attempts to take over against his dad and doesn’t work.

Season 2 he comes back into the fold and works for his father sharing the same goals until his father basically asked him to take the bullet and go to prison in which he leaves again to take on his father.

Season 3 starts with him working with the DOJ to bring down his father. But in Ken’s twisted mind, when he does this he’s doing it so that his father will go away and he can still run his father’s company.  But this was never going happen.  Even if Logan had gone to jail, you don’t rehire the person who took private documents to the DOJ.  
 

At the point where he fires the lawyer for the DOJ, team Logan finds out it’s going to be a number and that there won’t be any jail time for anyone.   What’s left for him?  He’s done at his father’s company.  What’s the show going to do show him getting a job somewhere else and how would that tie into what’s going on in his father’s company?  How does he get incorporated back into the story?

I’m not saying it’s death but something has happen.  
 

 

I guess it’s also possible that the DOJ thing really isn’t dead

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, dmc said:

I don’t know that this is happening it’s just a lot of speculation until we see the episode. I posted it less because I think it’s going to happen because I’m not sure and more because I think reviewers are responding to the fact that Kendall has sort of run out of storylines.  
 

From a story standpoint, what’s next for him?

Season 1 he first attempts to take over against his dad and doesn’t work.

Season 2 he comes back into the fold and works for his father sharing the same goals until his father basically asked him to take the bullet and go to prison in which he leaves again to take on his father.

Season 3 starts with him working with the DOJ to bring down his father. But in Ken’s twisted mine, when he does this he’s doing it so that his father will go away and he can still run his father’s company.  But this was never going happen.  Even if Logan had gone to jail, you don’t rehire the person who took private documents to the DOJ.  
 

At the point where he fires the lawyer for the DOJ, team Logan finds out it’s going to be a number and that there won’t be any jail time for anyone.   What’s left for him?  He’s done his father’s company.  What’s the show going to do show him getting a job somewhere else and how would that tie into what’s going on in his father’s company? 

I have no ideas myself, but I don't feel like Kendall's run out of storylines because he's run through all the against/for Logan possibilities. Actual death ends his storylines--without, it seems to me, creating juicy ones for the survivors. (Though that might be a lack of imagination on my part, or my not knowing the characters as well as their creator.) A metaphorical death could lead to something more unexpected, which might actually be a good thing, even if it's not about Kendall's own agency. It actually even seems more in character for Kendall that if he was going to commit suicide it would be in one of his defiant moods, so it would be messy and loud and public.

I also keep thinking about Donald Trump's brother, the one who seemed to get the one bit of humanity in his immediate family, and how he failed to be able to get out and wound up withering away in his old bedroom, "cared for" by the parent who basically killed him. There's a Gothic flourish.

[dmc]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I have no ideas myself, but I don't feel like Kendall's run out of storylines because he's run through all the against/for Logan possibilities. Actual death ends his storylines--without, it seems to me, creating juicy ones for the survivors. (Though that might be a lack of imagination on my part, or my not knowing the characters as well as their creator.) A metaphorical death could lead to something more unexpected, which might actually be a good thing, even if it's not about Kendall's own agency. It actually even seems more in character for Kendall that if he was going to commit suicide it would be in one of his defiant moods, so it would be messy and loud and public.

I also keep thinking about Donald Trump's brother, the one who seemed to get the one bit of humanity in his immediate family, and how he failed to be able to get out and wound up withering away in his old bedroom, "cared for" by the parent who basically killed him. There's a Gothic flourish.

But the show is called Succession and that’s gone unless that’s also metaphorical.

It’s also weird to me on shows where the characters all interact all the time and there’s another character that kind of leaves that dynamic…how to work them into the show…

Anytime I’ve ever seen this dynamic play out on television they ultimately had to figure out a way to get the character back into the fold because it doesn’t really work.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with it may be some thing I’ve never thought of…

I know very little about the Trump family.  I’ve heard he has a brother and I know that he passed away and Trump tweeted about it.  But that’s actually all I know.

 

 

 

 

 

[aghst]

The question is, would Kendall having minimal interaction with his family, no role in the business, still make for interesting story lines for his character?

It would be better if he removed himself from that toxic situation but would it be as entertaining?

One of the Murdochs son left the family business.  I don't know if he cut off ties with the family or if he's done anything interesting since leaving.  Still very rich but I don't think he's speaking out against his family or the business.

So what would Kendall do if he's not engaging in constant putdowns with his siblings and father?

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, aghst said:

The question is, would Kendall having minimal interaction with his family, no role in the business, still make for interesting story lines for his character?

It would be better if he removed himself from that toxic situation but would it be as entertaining?

One of the Murdochs son left the family business.  I don't know if he cut off ties with the family or if he's done anything interesting since leaving.  Still very rich but I don't think he's speaking out against his family or the business.

So what would Kendall do if he's not engaging in constant putdowns with his siblings and father?

That’s the thing I’m wondering.  So whatever happens either has to finish finish his story or get him back in the dynamic.  
 

And quite frankly even if Logan dies, I can’t see a situation where he be back at that company

[Carolina Girl]

One thing I noticed.  Logan has "pet" names for the two younger kids - Shiv is "Pinky" and Roman is "Romulus" - but have never seen a pet name for either Connor or Kendall.  

[BlackberryJam]

An actor that is purposefully hurting himself, or permitting himself to be hurt, or putting others in danger (Strong wanting to be actually peppered sprayed in a movie scene that involved many other actors) is more than weird and a little too Method. I’m not sure if that’s a reason to kill off Kendall, but if the question is, “Would HBO allow it if that’s what the showrunner/writers wanted to do with the story?” I think the answer is “Yes, they would.”

All of the Roy children are despicable and broken. I’m bothered that Kendall is using the rape of women to further his personal agenda. At the same time, he’s the only one doing anything for these women, despite his motivation. So, in that context, I want Kendall to win. I want the DoJ so far up Logan’s ass that’s he’s coughing out subpoenas, but that’s not the story we are watching.

If I had to predict, I think we may get Kendall and a suicide attempt, but not a completion. Maybe they will put him in-patient or have him be catatonic, some complete breakdown. I’m sure Strong could really pull off mania. Maybe they will have Kendall try a stripped down life in a commune. If he’s not getting the cash from Logan for his shares, maybe he just checks out.

I think there is plenty of story left for Kendall by just having him stop fighting Logan, and just stop in general. It could set up the show for another board fight, this time with everyone vying for Kendall’s vote while he’s learning how to make his own deodorant and eating only food he’s personally grown. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by BlackberryJam

[dmc]

**** Just realized I replied to the wrong comment.  This is Re the Murdoch family comment 
 

James is the one that left.  And I don’t know what he’s doing now.  I know his father essentially sold off a lot of his television holdings and gave a pared down version to his favorite kid, Lachlan to run.  James originally tried to get a job with Disney and it didn’t work out.  Then I lost interest in what he was doing.  I don’t know it’s fair to call James, a Kendall because he’s not a screwup.  But he’s very much a Democrat and not conservative.  I don’t know I’d call him liberal either, I would say he’s more of a moderate Democrat.
 

In the world of Succession, Lachlan would be his Roman.  He is a person essentially running his father’s smaller empire. Also he’s not really a screwup either to be fair. But he’s definitely on brand with his company’s viewpoint.  Whether these are his beliefs or he just thinks it’s smart, I don’t know.
 

He also has two daughters,  the one he likes runs her own successful movie production company.  The other daughter is like his Connor. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

47 minutes ago, dmc said:

But the show is called Succession and that’s gone unless that’s also metaphorical.

 

TBF, that sort of became metaphorical when they decided to keep Logan alive, because he clearly has no intention of really naming a successor. 

36 minutes ago, aghst said:

The question is, would Kendall having minimal interaction with his family, no role in the business, still make for interesting story lines for his character?

It would be better if he removed himself from that toxic situation but would it be as entertaining?

Logan said he didn't want Kendall to leave the business, right? So he'd always have a reason to still be involved, even if it started out with him there in zombie form.

It seems like the point of a suicide is to show that sometimes Logan can push so hard that the person just dies to be free of him, which certainly does tell him something...but then, it seems like Logan would read suicide as a weakness and just erase Kendall from memory if that was the case. If he just dies of...seems like not even an overdose but just a sort of stupor, which is what would be happening, it's just sort of...and then one son died in a really pathetic accident. 

22 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

One thing I noticed.  Logan has "pet" names for the two younger kids - Shiv is "Pinky" and Roman is "Romulus" - but have never seen a pet name for either Connor or Kendall.  

I was thinking about that recently too. Of course to me it's yet more proof that Roman should be the youngest. Shiv got a nickname because she was the first little girl, and then Roman was the baby so he could have one. I am aware that this is in no way proof.

[dmc]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, that sort of became metaphorical when they decided to keep Logan alive, because he clearly has no intention of really naming a successor. 

Logan said he didn't want Kendall to leave the business, right? So he'd always have a reason to still be involved, even if it started out with him there in zombie form.

It seems like the point of a suicide is to show that sometimes Logan can push so hard that the person just dies to be free of him, which certainly does tell him something...but then, it seems like Logan would read suicide as a weakness and just erase Kendall from memory if that was the case. If he just dies of...seems like not even an overdose but just a sort of stupor, which is what would be happening, it's just sort of...and then one son died in a really pathetic accident. 

I was thinking about that recently too. Of course to me it's yet more proof that Roman should be the youngest. Shiv got a nickname because she was the first little girl, and then Roman was the baby so he could have one. I am aware that this is in no way proof.

I think you can still technically be a successor with the person still alive as long as other the person steps down. But I think by now we know, Logan will not step down alive.  It’s just something he dangles over all of his children with no real intention of doing it. So yeah, agreed.

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[Bluesky]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:16 AM, Carolina Girl said:

Tom should know all about punching above his weight.

And Shiv was happy to remind him of it in this episode.  

I think Tom loves Greg so much is because he finally sees someone who he thinks is beneath him.  But Greg is blood. That’s why Logan tolerates Greg so well.   

[Lassus]

4 hours ago, dmc said:

Is the pool isolated enough for him not to be found?

I mean, if he was solo, sure, but the kids would let people know in this case for sure.  Unless the drowning takes place at the start of the wedding and the kids are used to hanging out with him in the same house for 5-6 hours and not seeing him at all?  A bit hard to stretch.

Part of me even wonders if there are news of a "devastating" finale if it's not someone totally unsuspected, like, Roman or Connor.  Or again, Logan.  Or, unfortunately, one of Kendall's kids. 

To be honest, the attention on the Kendall progeny had me thinking that something terrible was going to happen to one of them THIS EPISODE.  

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I mean, if he was solo, sure, but the kids would let people know in this case for sure.  Unless the drowning takes place at the start of the wedding and the kids are used to hanging out with him in the same house for 5-6 hours and not seeing him at all?  A bit hard to stretch.

Part of me even wonders if there are news of a "devastating" finale if it's not someone totally unsuspected, like, Roman or Connor.  Or again, Logan.  Or, unfortunately, one of Kendall's kids. 

To be honest, the attention on the Kendall progeny had me thinking that something terrible was going to happen to one of them THIS EPISODE.  

I hope it’s not one of the kids. 

[Lassus]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I guess it’s also possible that the DOJ thing really isn’t dead

I've also thought this.  It was a little too specifically non-definitive.  Tom being hauled off to jail would be kind of devastating.  

EDIT:  Or rather, it might not be empirically, but Mcfayden's reactions would make it so.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Lassus

[dmc]

8 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I've also thought this.  It was a little too specifically non-definitive.  Tom being hauled off to jail would be kind of devastating.  

It’s also possible that the thing in the pool leads to Kendall confessing to the vehicular homicide and his family’s role in covering up.  A lot of people have speculated that Kendall wasn’t trying to commit suicide he was seeing what it’s like to not be able to breathe to identify with that victim.
 

His father’s last words to him were that he murdered somebody, he may decide to cleanse his conscience.  If he’s really a better man than his father he has to be accountable for this act.

 

And maybe it’s representative of a death, of the old Kendall.

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[Bluesky]

21 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Is Kendall’s oldest daughter a different race? 
 

That’s always been puzzling.  The boy has the mother’s looks but the girl looks Pakistani or Indian.     Logan acts like she doesn’t exist, only asking about “the boy”.  

[Lassus]

I just re-watched the accident, starting when the kid in the car does the ketamine.  

Kendall REFUSES, because he wants coke, and the kid says he knows a guy.  Because after the K the kid is barely conscious Kendall offers to drive, because he's fine.  Now, I don't KNOW what he's done before because I didn't watch the whole episode, or if he's just maybe got a couple drinks in him, but he's certainly playing it very straight.  He's futzing with the stick shift, concerned about his lack of driving, conversing, and then he swerves to avoid a deer then lands in the water.  He eventually surfaces, and then tries to go back down to help the kid, but fails.  Then he leaves, rather in shock.

So the crime, the "murder" seems to be... not telling anyone right away?  I remember him sneaking back to the house, but there's no other traffic and waiting to help would be worse.

As always, the cover-up is worse than the crime?  Unless he was functionally high at the time.

[aghst]

I thought the kid grabbed the wheel to swerve away from the deer./

In any event, Logan had a run in with the same kid earlier and he may have been where Kendall found him, to ask if he could get drugs, because Logan had him fired and the kid was just hanging out outside?

[Ms Blue Jay]

I was wondering if Romulus was the real name, and Roman was the nickname, but Logan wouldn't be cool enough to name his kid Romulus, would he?

Wikipedia lists Roman's name as Roman Roy, and Shiv's name as Siobhan Roy, but Tom's name as "Tom Wambsgans", lol, so they definitely don't have all the full names there.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[dmc]

38 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I just re-watched the accident, starting when the kid in the car does the ketamine.  

Kendall REFUSES, because he wants coke, and the kid says he knows a guy.  Because after the K the kid is barely conscious Kendall offers to drive, because he's fine.  Now, I don't KNOW what he's done before because I didn't watch the whole episode, or if he's just maybe got a couple drinks in him, but he's certainly playing it very straight.  He's futzing with the stick shift, concerned about his lack of driving, conversing, and then he swerves to avoid a deer then lands in the water.  He eventually surfaces, and then tries to go back down to help the kid, but fails.  Then he leaves, rather in shock.

So the crime, the "murder" seems to be... not telling anyone right away?  I remember him sneaking back to the house, but there's no other traffic and waiting to help would be worse.

As always, the cover-up is worse than the crime?  Unless he was functionally high at the time.

I’m thinking it’s driving under the influence. Also maybe Kendall wasn’t able to help the kid but if he called for help maybe he would’ve survived.   Also leaving the scene of an accident is also a crime

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[smartymarty]

On 12/6/2021 at 8:09 AM, Blakeston said:

After Logan got in his last gut punch with, "I cleaned up your shit, and I'm a bad person?", that would have been a great time for Kendall to say, "You just offered your own grandson food that you believed could be poisoned, so yes." Instead of just sitting there with his head bowed in shame.

Except that cleaning up Kendall's shit might be something that a father should do, rather than do it to be a good person.

I heard Caroline's statement ("Some people should never be parents" [or possibly she said "mothers"]) as being an explanation, possibly an excuse, but not so terrible. Kind of "I'm sorry. I really wasn't cut out to be a parent."
 

Ditto on why was Greg there.

[sugarbaker design]

6 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Except that cleaning up Kendall's shit might be something that a father should do, rather than do it to be a good person.

For an adult child?  Wouldn't that be very enabling?  Shouldn't the adult child clean up his own mess?

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, Bluesky said:

That’s always been puzzling.  The boy has the mother’s looks but the girl looks Pakistani or Indian.     Logan acts like she doesn’t exist, only asking about “the boy”.  

I feel weird focusing on it but yes, it does seem odd. I don't see Rava being a name attached to a specific culture. In fact, since it's one name for a certain wine grape, seems very possible that Rava's family is in wine and she's named after the grape. (Remember that wine her dad gave her.) 

I checked to see if the actress was Indian or part-Indian, since the only other thing I saw her in she was playing a white person. I didn't find anything on her IMDB page about any Indian connections and it would surprise me that a show that premiered only 3 years ago would be hiring a white person to play someone who's supposed to be bi-racial or Indian. Maybe Sophie is adopted and it's just never come up in dialogue because a) the family doesn't have an impulse to tease Kendall over having an adopted kid, b) Logan doesn't mind having an adopted non-white daughter in the family but c) Logan's focus on Iverson absolutely is a sign that he doesn't see Sophie as equal.

In fact, this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who was from a rich family. They were several adopted kids and her grandmother consistently made it clear she didn't consider them real family via micro-aggressions.

Btw, Sophie looked older to me than I expected after that rabbit issue. That was Sophie, wasn't it? 

[Lassus]

43 minutes ago, aghst said:

I thought the kid grabbed the wheel to swerve away from the deer.

Good eye!  I totally missed that, yes.

[Lassus]

20 minutes ago, dmc said:

I’m thinking it’s driving under the influence. Also maybe Kendall wasn’t able to help the kid but if he called for help maybe he would’ve survived.   Also leaving the scene of an accident is also a crime

Right.  My point was more that on re-watch, he honestly didn't "murder" anyone, unless, of course, he was under the influence.  Again, I'd have to re-watch the entire episode.  I doubt the phone would have made it out of that dunking functional.  I also think that if had gone somewhere (anywhere) for help rather than sit there like a lump waiting for a car that was never coming the leaving the scene would have been forgiven.

 

[Bluesky]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I feel weird focusing on it but yes, it does seem odd. I don't see Rava being a name attached to a specific culture. In fact, since it's one name for a certain wine grape, seems very possible that Rava's family is in wine and she's named after the grape. (Remember that wine her dad gave her.) 

I checked to see if the actress was Indian or part-Indian, since the only other thing I saw her in she was playing a white person. I didn't find anything on her IMDB page about any Indian connections and it would surprise me that a show that premiered only 3 years ago would be hiring a white person to play someone who's supposed to be bi-racial or Indian. Maybe Sophie is adopted and it's just never come up in dialogue because a) the family doesn't have an impulse to tease Kendall over having an adopted kid, b) Logan doesn't mind having an adopted non-white daughter in the family but c) Logan's focus on Iverson absolutely is a sign that he doesn't see Sophie as equal.

In fact, this reminds me of a friend of mine in college who was from a rich family. They were several adopted kids and her grandmother consistently made it clear she didn't consider them real family via micro-aggressions.

Btw, Sophie looked older to me than I expected after that rabbit issue. That was Sophie, wasn't it? 

Yes, that was a new actress playing the part of Sophie.  Which confused me about how many years were supposed to have passed. Not sure if the son was played by the same kid.  

[dmc]

6 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Right.  My point was more that on re-watch, he honestly didn't "murder" anyone, unless, of course, he was under the influence.  Again, I'd have to re-watch the entire episode.  I doubt the phone would have made it out of that dunking functional.  I also think that if had gone somewhere (anywhere) for help rather than sit there like a lump waiting for a car that was never coming the leaving the scene would have been forgiven.

 

Yeah he never murdered anybody.  It was just negligence.  And failure to report and then leaving the scene of a crime. 
 

His father is just being manipulative.

Honestly if he had come forward I don’t even know if anything would have happened to him. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Right.  My point was more that on re-watch, he honestly didn't "murder" anyone, unless, of course, he was under the influence.  Again, I'd have to re-watch the entire episode.  I doubt the phone would have made it out of that dunking functional.  I also think that if had gone somewhere (anywhere) for help rather than sit there like a lump waiting for a car that was never coming the leaving the scene would have been forgiven.

 

He probably was "okay" to drive meaning that as a person who did a lot of drugs an drank, he was sure he could drive a car despite whatever he had. But he didn't see the deer and the kid did. He had good reason to think the kid was already dead when he couldn't get him out of the car, and then couldn't face running for help--maybe in part because he knew that "okay to drive" for Kendall would show up as "DUI" to the rest of the world.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I think if Roman was the youngest CHILD, then this article would say youngest child instead of youngest son, no?

Quote

Then it happened. In 2016, Kathryn Bigelow, the Oscar-winning director of “The Hurt Locker,” cast him in a big role, as a National Guardsman in her film “Detroit.” Around the same time, Strong had lunch with Adam McKay, who had directed him as a financial analyst in “The Big Short.” McKay said that he was executive-producing a new HBO show called “Succession,” which he described to Strong as a “King Lear” for the media-industrial complex. McKay gave him the pilot script and said, “Tell me what role you connect with.” Strong picked Roman Roy, the wisecracking youngest son of Logan Roy, a Rupert Murdoch-like media titan. “I thought, Oh, wow, Roman is such a cool part,” Strong said. “He’s, like, this bon-vivant prick. I could do something that I hadn’t done before.”

 

[Blakeston]

I definitely think Roman was originally written to be the middle child. The question is whether they retconned him into being the youngest child, along with getting rid of the wife and kid he had in the very beginning of the series.

[peachmangosteen]

I don't know why really but I find it so damn annoying that they won't definitively say whether or not Roman is the youngest and/or whether or not we're supposed to just forget about the wife and kids.

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, Bluesky said:

I think Tom loves Greg so much is because he finally sees someone who he thinks is beneath him.

Something I hadn't considered.  Surprised, though, that he calls him "cousin" Greg, forgetting that in the higher scheme he is Logan's grand-nephew.  It's Greg's MOTHER that is Shiv's cousin.  Come to think of it, have they ever elaborated on the relationship between Ewan Roy and Greg's mother?  Greg said that HE was guaranteeing her credit card (rather than Ewan), so I wonder if the two of them are estranged.  There's certainly no love lost between Ewan and Greg - Ewan is also pretty manipulative, demanding and cold as Logan.  

Was it ever explained how Ewan made HIS money?  Did Logan give HIM shares in Waystar/Royco?  Because Ewan holds it all in such contempt and disdain - you'd think he would rid himself of the stock, etc., so he could swim away in his righteousness.  But he doesn't.  Which makes you wonder if, indeed, there is provision that the shares cannot be sold or probably even transferred except with Board approval.  

[caitmcg]

56 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't know why really but I find it so damn annoying that they won't definitively say whether or not Roman is the youngest and/or whether or not we're supposed to just forget about the wife and kids.

On the latter point, I think we’re definitely meant to forget about it. Lots of shows rejigger characters, or even recast them, after the pilot is picked up and it’s just – hand wave – water under the bridge.

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

Yeah he never murdered anybody.  It was just negligence.  And failure to report and then leaving the scene of a crime. 
 

His father is just being manipulative.

Honestly if he had come forward I don’t even know if anything would have happened to him. 

That's the thing, it probably wouldn't have been that bad for him if he'd reported it at the time, or even the next day. But Logan found out (through Marcia's son) and convinced him the scandal would ruin his life even if he didn't do serious time, not because Logan really wanted to save him but because he needed Kendall to owe him for the cover-up to bring him back in line.

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Something I hadn't considered.  Surprised, though, that he calls him "cousin" Greg, forgetting that in the higher scheme he is Logan's grand-nephew.  It's Greg's MOTHER that is Shiv's cousin. 

Which still makes Greg their cousin, it's called first cousin once removed. I have a bunch of 2nd cousins and cousins-once-removed on my mother's side, and we just say cousin.

2 hours ago, caitmcg said:

On the latter point, I think we’re definitely meant to forget about it. Lots of shows rejigger characters, or even recast them, after the pilot is picked up and it’s just – hand wave – water under the bridge.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider that retcon a major plot hole. The only detail really confirming marriage was a wedding ring I doubt most people noticed, the words husband and wife weren't used and the girl never called him Daddy. So Roman had a long-term gf who was a single mom. Kinda weird, especially on her part,  but since she was still in several eps after the pilot, I don't see it as quite the usual pilot disappearing plotpoint. Either way, I headcanon Roman and Shiv as the closest in age so I don't know how much it matters which was technically the final baby. Roman's whole deal can't be strictly chalked up to birth and what really matters is that he's younger than Kendall, the #1 boy and natural heir. (Connor was probably disqualified after his parents' divorce when Logan started over with Caroline.)

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think if Roman was the youngest CHILD, then this article would say youngest child instead of youngest son, no?

 

Yes, there are places where it states that Roman is the middle child. But Roman's character was also clearly retconned after the pilot, and the idea that he's the youngest comes from from viewers just often "feeling" he is based on the dynamics. (The time he slapped Shiv, for instance, felt like it came from him once being younger than her, but obviously that's not really any kind of fact that proves anything.) So even if they do eventually do something to make it explicit he's older than Shiv, "youngest son" is probably important. But as was said elsewere, it's not like all Roman's issues are supposed to come from his birth order.

4 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't know why really but I find it so damn annoying that they won't definitively say whether or not Roman is the youngest and/or whether or not we're supposed to just forget about the wife and kids.

 

3 hours ago, caitmcg said:

On the latter point, I think we’re definitely meant to forget about it. Lots of shows rejigger characters, or even recast them, after the pilot is picked up and it’s just – hand wave – water under the bridge.

Yes, to me it seems like they have definitively told us. The woman and child we saw in the pilot were later revealed to be a woman Roman was seeing and her daughter. There's been no reason to wonder if he was married since then.

ETA: Almost forgot, regarding the kids and whether they look older. It's possible when they filmed this they couldn't have any kids under 12 working with them because they had to be vaxxed and it wasn't available for under 12s then. So that might explain recasting with kids (did they recast both?) who look too old to be insisting on feeding their bunny a bagel.

Edited December 8, 2021 by sistermagpie

[aghst]

Would it really make that much difference if Roman or Shiv was the youngest?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Would it really make that much difference if Roman or Shiv was the youngest?

Nope. It's just one of those things were if you think one thing and then hear the other you think, "Huh, really? Coulda sworn s/he was the youngest."

[TimWil]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:46 PM, Maire said:

How did Greg get invited to this wedding?
 

This is sort of irritating me. Why would he be there? No way would Lady Caroline have invited him. Also, why is Comfry there? It doesn’t seem that Kendall is in much of a state to have any of his PR staff there. If she’s Greg’s +1 it makes more sense but he just would never have been invited to that event in the first place.

[dmc]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, there are places where it states that Roman is the middle child. But Roman's character was also clearly retconned after the pilot, and the idea that he's the youngest comes from from viewers just often "feeling" he is based on the dynamics. (The time he slapped Shiv, for instance, felt like it came from him once being younger than her, but obviously that's not really any kind of fact that proves anything.) So even if they do eventually do something to make it explicit he's older than Shiv, "youngest son" is probably important. But as was said elsewere, it's not like all Roman's issues are supposed to come from his birth order.

 

Yes, to me it seems like they have definitively told us. The woman and child we saw in the pilot were later revealed to be a woman Roman was seeing and her daughter. There's been no reason to wonder if he was married since then.

ETA: Almost forgot, regarding the kids and whether they look older. It's possible when they filmed this they couldn't have any kids under 12 working with them because they had to be vaxxed and it wasn't available for under 12s then. So that might explain recasting with kids (did they recast both?) who look too old to be insisting on feeding their bunny a bagel.

I think you can still be the youngest child and still be called someone’s youngest son. I might call somebody someone’s youngest son if they only had two sons and he’s the youngest despite him being the youngest child.

 

But my take on this is Roman is the youngest, period.  But it’s possible at some point they meant for him to have a different character.  He was also married at some point.

[Pestilentia]

7 hours ago, TimWil said:

On 12/5/2021 at 10:46 PM, Maire said:

How did Greg get invited to this wedding?
 

This is sort of irritating me. Why would he be there? No way would Lady Caroline have invited him.

He's family.

She remembered him fondly from when he was born- she called him "Greg the Egg." 

As Logan's wife at the time she would have been his great-aunt and enormous festivities like this always invite all family.  

He's family.

 

[smartymarty]

18 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

For an adult child?  Wouldn't that be very enabling?  Shouldn't the adult child clean up his own mess?

Yes. I just meant that Logan doing it should have been as a father helping his son, rather than to make him feel like a good person (which totally was not his motivation, either).

[Carolina Girl]

I thought I'd rewatch the very first episode to see if there's some things I've forgotten about the dynamic.  Interesting that when Logan greets Connor he hugs him and says "Primo!"  (Conversation rapidly goes downhill when Connor's present of a sourdough starter is mocked - and this was probably the gift where the giftgiver gave the most thought to it).  So maybe they were looking to give Connor a "nickname" and abandoned it right away.  

[braziliangirl]

Even though Kendall is the main character I'm interested in... I'm kinda wishing that he dies (not necessarily as a suicide). It could be a big fuck you to Logan: to take away from him the dog he loves most to kick and test around. The dog that even clumsily and awfully tries to fight back. As far as I understand Kendall nailed it when he said that Logan envies them and can't deal with this feeling 

Kendall is far away from being a good person but at the beggining of the show he was trying to be different (even in a entitled cringy billionaire sort of way). He was sober and wanted to do a good job, I think the tipping point was the low blow Logan gives by leaking a false information about his addiction 

It would also be interesting to me to see how Roman and Shiv would feel about it (because at least in the first 2 seasons it seemed there was some kind of friendship and love between the three of them).

The others may have nicknames but it's Kendall whom Logan loves most to hate and humiliate. What would happen if he didn't have this outlet anymore? What would happen if he lost something that he loves (not the love he feels for Ken but the love in despising him, controlling him, in acting out all of his envy and resentment about being just a human being who grows old and dies - even in life because like someone said on this board - the rest of the world thinks he's outdated. He's a bit of a joke to the new moguls).  

I'm tired of seeing the same storyline over and over again (felt the same way half watching Billions). 

I hope something changes. Even if the cost is the character i'm most invested in. 

[Lassus]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:31 AM, aghst said:

So they write Kendall off the show because he's moody and so Method that the other cast members find him weird?

The chances of that being Kieran's actual dick are greater than this.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, dmc said:

I think you can still be the youngest child and still be called someone’s youngest son. I might call somebody someone’s youngest son if they only had two sons and he’s the youngest despite him being the youngest child.

Absolutely. I just meant that if it became explicit that he was the middle child, I think his being the younger son would probably still have made him feel like the baby in some ways, if that makes sense.

4 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

He's family.

She remembered him fondly from when he was born- she called him "Greg the Egg." 

As Logan's wife at the time she would have been his great-aunt and enormous festivities like this always invite all family.  

He's family.

 

Yeah, Greg being there doesn't seem weird at all to me. I'm not surprised to see cousins at a family wedding, even if Caroline is only family by marriage. She obviously had to run a lot by Logan and Logan considers Greg part of his family group at this point. IF nothing else, it publicly shows he's not Ewan's.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by sistermagpie

[Haleth]

I thought the final scene was Ken showing a tiny bit of empathy for the dead waiter. I bet he never once thought beyond his own pain until Logan put the suggestion in his head that drowning was a terrible death. Maybe he’s finding his humanity.

Naaaaaaw. 

[Blakeston]

Inviting your ex-husband's estranged brother's grandson to your wedding is pretty unusual, I think.

I think it would have been a good idea to include a line where Caroline says something to one of her kids like, "I've done a lot to please your father, like inviting his obscure relatives."

[aghst]

The title of the episode, "Chiantishire," wasn't coined by the show.

It describes some English privileged people who would go to Italy, Tuscany as it turns out, to spend summers.

So it's a 19th century, maybe even earlier thing.

One example would be Room with a View by E.M. Forster, which was made into a movie with Maggie Smith and Helena Bonham-Carter.