S13.E05: Chapter Five: Survivors of the Flux

[DanaK]

Quote

As the forces of evil mass, the Doctor, Yaz and Dan face perilous journeys and seemingly insurmountable obstacles in their quest for survival.

Airs Sunday, November 28 at 6:25pm on BBC1 and iPlayer in the UK and 8pm ET on BBC America and AMC+ in the US. It runs for 50 minutes

Written by Chris Chibnall

Directed by Azhur Saleem 

Edited November 27, 2021 by DanaK

[DanaK]

15 new promo pics for the episode released https://www.tvzoneuk.com/post/dwflux-ep5firstlookimages

[Llywela]

Meh. Okay, I didn't enjoy this one. It felt very bitty, the dialogue was very Chibnall, in the worst possible way (he really isn't as good at writing organic expository dialogue as was needed here), and it leaned right into all the Timeless Child elements I disliked most last season, again in the worst possible way. All that build-up for Tecteun, just to kill her off so casually. It's all just so underwhelming at the same time as being over-the-top. And this grand origin story really doesn't suit the Doctor - not to mention how poorly it ties in with what we already know of the character's history. They're trying to explain things that really shouldn't be explained. Just leave the character's backstory alone, showrunners, please!

The UNIT sub-plot was really shaky, especially in terms of the show's own history. I mean, the development of UNIT happened on-screen in the 60s, so why mess with those origins when fans can go back and see for themselves? Getting the little details wrong just feels lazy, and can't be blamed on the Grand Serpent's interference.

On the other hand, I think I could have watched a whole season of the time-stranded trio of Yaz, Dan and Jericho trotting around the globe on a series of mysterious quests. Quite how they funded all that international travel is a mystery, but it was fun. And I like that the episode ended with a few new character pairings - Bel with Karvanista, Vinder in Passenger with Di. Plus, Kate Stewart managed to outface and outwit the Grand Serpent.

I've enjoyed the season so far, but this wasn't a great penultimate episode, so I'm feeling very wary going into next week's finale.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Llywela

[ElleryAnne]

Things I liked:

1 - Yaz, Dan and the Professor traveling together.  They're a fun trio.  Especially on board ship.

2 - Williamson and the tunnels.  If the whole episode was just about the trio plus Williamson and the tunnels, I'd have loved it.  (Don't open #9, that leads to death.)

3 - The lamps in that Unit office, either side of the big window.  I totally covet them.

Things I didn't mind:

1 - Random new pairings, like Vinder and Di, and Bel and Karvanista.  It helps that I have generally positive feelings towards all of those characters anyway.  Kind of wish they'd join the trio and Williamson in the tunnels.

2 - Kate and the return of UNIT.  

 

Things I don't like:

1 - Swarm and Azure.  Why, exactly, are they around?  Tecteun (sp?) brought them back?  I haven't really liked them from the start - they feel like an awkward addition to an over-stuffed plot.  I don't find them entertaining as villains, just kind of irritating.

2 - Anything and everything to do with the Timeless Child(ren).  

3 - Tecteun (sp?).  She's like the mom in a bad Lifetime movie, the one who blames her daughter for everything and then pulls the, "but I'm your mother" card.  Aside from plot-points, she's not even interesting.  She's just unpleasant. But now she's dead, so there's that, I guess.

4 - The Grand Serpent.  I think I'm just tired of how many villains there are, and how little I get some of the motivation to them.  So Serpent is working for/with the Sontarans?  I guess that's supposed to shock or impress, but it's just one more strand of spaghetti sliding down the wall.

5 - Anything to do with Division.  Except Karvanista.  I do like him.

6 - The general feeling that Chibnall put this story together using a book of Mad Libs and a pair of dice.

[jcin617]

Why is moving between universes so complicated suddenly; the Doctor has left the universe many times.  Heck, even Rose crossed universes.

[Lantern7]

Nice that things are starting to make sense. Universe is about to be compressed by Division to make way from a new version, our heroes are trying to stop it. Things still feel way too big to hold onto, but it's a lot easier than before. My head still (figuratively) hurts, though.

Add me to the list liking the Yaz/Dan/Jericho team. Even with the high stakes, it looks like they had some fun adventures. Dunno how messaging Karvanista works. If they painted the message on/near the Great Wall, wouldn't it have been visible a lot sooner than 2021? Or is it one of those things where we should shrug and think Karvanista only caught it because he is/was with Division?

I get how Prentis can bug . . . but I like how Kate managed to survive the fall of UNIT. The bits with the snakes were creepy. Anyone else think of Orochimaru from Naruto?

I also get how Doctor Who can draw surplus criticism, but I don't think Jodie deserves any blame. She sells her scenes so well, and I don't think her gender matters at all. The Doctor is still the Doctor. This one just has a little more hair, and I worry that it gets in the Doctor's eyes at inopportune moments.

[DanaK]

I didn't quite love this as much as previous episodes, more 8 than 9s and 10s, but I still enjoyed it. I thought the first half was a little slow and then it picked up in the second half. Having to watch the first 30 minutes via BBC America with the endless ads before it became available on AMC+ might have affected things.

Glad we got some answers for the Doctor from Tecteun though her origins are still a bit murky. Too bad mom bit the dust (literally)

I liked Jericho, Dan, and Yaz going around the world trying to figure things out and Williamson the tunnel guy finally had something solid to do

I liked that Karvanista and Bel have teamed up; next week should be interesting

Loved seeing Kate Stewart again and nice to see she was totally on the ball about Serpent guy

Edited November 29, 2021 by DanaK

[phalange]

So Division introduced the flux to wipe out the whole universe because they hate that the Doctor inspires people? That seems a bit much. Tacteun clearly doesn't know the Doctor at all; if she did she'd know the Doctor would never sacrifice the universe just to get answers. 

Yaz, Dan, and Jericho traveling around the world in 1904 was fun. 

I love that Karvanista still finds Dan irritating. I hope he comes back in future seasons.

[John Potts]

So we're doubling down on the whole "Timeless Child" angle then? I don't like the whole "Doctor as Messiah" idea, but I suppose if that's your idea, it's better to commit to it than to half arse it. Still not a fan.

Was expecting the liner that Yaz, Dan and the Professor were travelling on to turn out to be the Titanic, but you'd imagine they'd all know better than to book passage on that ship!

The "Mad Mole" was great too. Like the Professor, I love seeing characters who are doing their best to comprehend the problem even if they lack the level of understanding the Doctor has. Hope they both get some fitting reward (a posting with UNIT might be fitting, if it still exists at the conclusion). The Indian Guru(?) was a hoot as well.

4 hours ago, phalange said:

Tacteun clearly doesn't know the Doctor at all; if she did she'd know the Doctor would never sacrifice the universe just to get answers. 

Well she knows who the Doctor used to be prior to leaving Division and she knows well enough that curiosity as to her past might tempt her (and raised the stakes with "I'll spare the Earth"). So she knew enough to make it tempting, even if the Doctor would never take it.

8 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

I get how Prentis can bug . . . but I like how Kate managed to survive the fall of UNIT. The bits with the snakes were creepy. Anyone else think of Orochimaru from Naruto?

Well I thought of The Mara, but that's because I'm a fan of Classic Who! At least we got an explanation of why he's called the Great Serpent, even if he seems superfluous in the array of villains (I thought last week that he was going to turn out to be Swarm in disguise, though they are played by different actors - though he still might be, I suppose).

Edited November 29, 2021 by John Potts

[Llywela]

It's the next day, and while there's a lot I could say about the Timeless Child arc and how much I dislike it, the thing that really bugs me about this episode is that they went to all the trouble of including a little audio clip of Nicholas Courtney as Lethbridge-Stewart and yet managed to get the details all wrong. I thought Chibnall was a fan?

(Lethbridge-Stewart was not a corporal with UNIT in 1967; he went to Sandhurst so he would never have been a corporal at all. When he first met the Doctor in Web of Fear, which aired in 1968 but was possibly set in the near future, he was a colonel with the army regulars, and if UNIT existed at that time - which is unlikely, since it is heavily implied in The Invasion that it was established in direct response to the events of Web of Fear - Lethbridge-Stewart did not know anything about it. The next time he met the Doctor, in The Invasion - which also aired in 1968 but was set two years later again - he had joined UNIT and been promoted to Brigadier at the same time. This is very basic stuff, and it happened on-screen in the show Chris Chibnall claims to love. There is no reason at all to get these details wrong. Maybe the error was meant to underline the wonkiness of time at this point in the seasonal arc, but it doesn't come across that way because it's too subtle, it just plays as a flat-out contradiction of previously established fact, especially since with so much Plot to resolve in the final episode, the show is never going to bother to say, 'oh yeah, we changed the Brig's backstory, btw, what we told you in our UNIT through the decades sub-plot wasn't true', no it was just put in as an Easter Egg for the very fans who will know they got it wrong, so what was the point?)

I also really, really dislike the Timeless Child arc, more and more the more I think about it. And it isn't even that I object to the idea of the Doctor having had an existence before Hartnell, because that's a valid take that was implied on-screen way back in the 70s. But the way the storyline is playing out, making no attempt whatsoever to anchor itself to existing continuity, that I do object to, in a myriad of ways. I'm going to wait to see how the story plays out in the finale and specials before drawing a final judgement, but I am not impressed with what we've seen so far.

[DanaK]

Overnights were 3.82 million, up from last episode, and 5th for the day. It probably helped that I’m a Celebrity had to cancel its weekend shows because of recent storm damage to the show location

[John Potts]

I'm pretty sure the reference to their new "Corporal" was meant to be "Colonel", which would be reasonable in terms of being a Brigadier in time for Spearhead from Space, even if it doesn't fit with the Brigadier's established timeline of what he knew when.

(Obviously ignoring the whole "UNIT dating problem*" which is a completely different can of worms)

* Quite different from the "Torchwood dating problem", which is that it usually leads to disaster!

[Llywela]

16 minutes ago, John Potts said:

I'm pretty sure the reference to their new "Corporal" was meant to be "Colonel", which would be reasonable in terms of being a Brigadier in time for Spearhead from Space, even if it doesn't fit with the Brigadier's established timeline of what he knew when.

The word 'corporal' was used on-screen and was flat-out wrong, whatever the intention might have been, and a mistake like that making it to screen is inexcusable. And still incorrect, as the promotion to Brigadier came when he joined UNIT. Which happened considerably later than 1967, whichever UNIT dating system is used! It's just really shoddy work, which, let's face it, describes an awful lot about this era. Why bother making the reference at all if you aren't going to take the trouble to get it right? It just comes across as so half-assed.

And frankly, adding further confusion to the UNIT dating muddle is also inexcusable at this point, in this day and age when showrunners know that viewers care about continuity and actively encourage them to do so. Just...imagine for a moment how much stronger the show might be if it had spent the last 16 years building on the foundations of previously established continuity instead of re-writing its own past and muddying the waters at every damn opportunity. It would have taken so little extra effort to tie in with details clearly established in the past and would lend so much depth and coherence to the show, as a whole.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Llywela

[Eulipian 5k]

11 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Just...imagine for a moment how much stronger the show might be if it had spent the last 16 years building on the foundations of previously established continuity instead of re-writing its own past and muddying the waters at every damn opportunity. It would have taken so little extra effort to tie in with details clearly established in the past and would lend so much depth and coherence to the show, as a whole.

Couldn’t this have been written in 1979? And every year since fans decided showrunners do not run the show, (or remember). Any 50 year old show can only be seen as collaborative fiction; and fans are not part of the writer’s room collaboration. Looms? Time War? A new set of re-generations? The War Doctor? Nobody asked me! Such poor writing!

[Llywela]

47 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Couldn’t this have been written in 1979? And every year since fans decided showrunners do not run the show, (or remember). Any 50 year old show can only be seen as collaborative fiction; and fans are not part of the writer’s room collaboration. Looms? Time War? A new set of re-generations? The War Doctor? Nobody asked me! Such poor writing!

The show chose to make a deliberate reference to its own past and got the details wrong. That's shoddy writing, full stop. Take the tiny bit of extra effort it would require to get that detail right, and everything about it is strengthened. This isn't 1979, it is 2021, a time when viewers are actively encouraged to expect continuity in their shows, to look out for it, to celebrate it...but only when the showrunners can be bothered, apparently. And the fans this reference was designed to appeal to are the very people who will immediately spot the mistake, which just makes it seem all the more frustratingly pointless. If you want a New Who equivalent, it's like if someone wrote an episode that made an offhand passing reference to Rose Tyler being a Torchwood apprentice in 2002, or to James I setting up Torchwood after meeting Thirteen; we know it isn't true because we saw what happened on-screen, so why make the reference at all if you aren't going to bother getting the details right? The mistake weakens our belief in the integrity of the show's internal universe, whereas consistency strengthens our belief in the integrity of the show's internal universe. Simple as that.

It bugs me because it was such an easy thing to get right, they made the effort to make the reference in the first place, so why not go the whole way and actually write it properly, to actually be consistent with what's been established before? Not doing so is just really shoddy, and as such this minor point is fairly symbolic of the entire era. There's a lot of potential, a lot of imagination, a lot of heart, but the way it all comes together comes across as really half-assed half the time. Like, it is so close to being so good, but keeps falling at the last hurdle.

And I say that as someone who has enjoyed this season, up until now. This episode wasn't awful, but it was much weaker than those before it. The dialogue was almost universally poor.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Llywela

[JustHereForFood]

I once again liked the episode, glad that we are getting more information, but I am sad that next week it's the end of the season. I would have liked a proper season for this story. Though preferably with less Swarm and Azure.

I agree with posters above that Yaz, Dan and Jericho were a highlight. I didn't think that they would keep Jericho, so that was a surprise. And I finally found Dan useful. I didn't dislike him before, but he seemed sort of without a purpose, like he was there just to be there. On the other hand, I didn't care much for Bel, Karvanista or Vinder this episode. 

Getting back to Yaz, they keep showing us how dependent she is on the Doctor, I would compare it to Clara in her last season. Which makes me think that there is some horrible fate in store for Yaz, because at this point I cannot imagine her leaving Doctor voluntarily.

I am glad that we got more info about the Timeless child thing, becasue just like with Flux this season, the time to develop that story is ticking out and I would prefer to actually see the story, not just snippets here and there like we used to get with Moffat. But I was a bit unimpressed here. So the Doctor finally meets the Division and it's one person who claims to be her adoptive mother (which could be BS for all we know since the Doctor doesn't have her memories of her) and one Ood. I expected more. And she went down too easily at the end. I hope that next episode there is some proper follow up on this.

I never cared for UNIT or Kate Stewart, for some reason she and Osgood irk me, but if her fans are glad she's back, good for them.

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

The show chose to make a deliberate reference to its own past and got the details wrong. That's shoddy writing, full stop. Take the tiny bit of extra effort it would require to get that detail right, and everything about it is strengthened.

Thx for the cogent response. I assume the fact checker team on this massive production will be upgraded.  I don’t agree that this type of nit, which is tangential to the plot, should bring down the interweaving mysteries being presented. (Is it really like a red dot ruining your new cashmere sweater? 😎)

[Terrafamilia]

If Division has been going around interfering in things, you'd think they'd do it a little more constructively. Or, maybe we are supposed to wonder how horrifically things would have turned out vis-à-vis the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, et al, had they not interfered.

It seems like one of those organizations that exists only to protect its own existence.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Terrafamilia

[Llywela]

14 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Thx for the cogent response. I assume the fact checker team on this massive production will be upgraded.  I don’t agree that this type of nit, which is tangential to the plot, should bring down the interweaving mysteries being presented. (Is it really like a red dot ruining your new cashmere sweater? 😎)

Oh, I agree that it is a very minor point, and I'm not actually as angry about it as I possibly sound. Frustrated, is the word. And I'm making a point of it here because this one very minor point to me kind of encapsulates the problem with Chibnall's era as a whole, because it was a really lovely idea that was let down by really lousy execution, which is a description that could summarise so very many episodes over the last couple of seasons. And I find that exasperating. It comes so close to being so good, but then so often falls short and leaves me thinking 'if only...'

Also, never mind any fact checking team, Chibnall is a self-proclaimed super-fan, has been since he was a kid, so this error over the Brig's rank and the date he joined UNIT is exactly the kind of detail I would expect someone like him to get spot-on (honestly, it would have taken about 30 seconds of Googling to check). He himself would castigate any other writer who made that kind of mistake, so I feel comfortable pointing it out and sighing about it when he does it! Because, honestly, although continuity errors were the norm in the classic era, when writers did not have access to past scripts to check facts and viewers weren't able to re-watch episodes after they aired, there is no excuse, really, for continuing to introduce new inconsistencies today, when none of that is true. I used to gnash my teeth over Moffat's airy 'never expect logic from Who' for much the same reason, because he used it as an excuse not to bother even trying to be consistent. But like I said, I'm not angry about it, just frustrated, because I feel like the show is capable of more, and would be a lot stronger if the writers aimed for greater consistency, in general.

And there is, actually, a hell of a lot more I would like to criticise about this particular episode (my goodness, the dialogue was more than usually woeful) but I'm holding back because the story isn't finished yet, I want to see how all the strands come together in the finale next week before I form a final opinion.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Llywela

[DanaK]

Strangely, I think it was the UNIT history stuff that bogged the episode down for me. When I rewatch the episode now, I ff through all the UNIT stuff (minus Kate, she's terrific) and the episode plays much better for me

[DanaK]

19 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

If Division has been going around interfering in things, you'd think they'd do it a little more constructively. Or, maybe we are supposed to wonder how horrifically things would have turned out vis-à-vis the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans, et al, had they not interfered.

It seems like one of those organizations that exists only to protect its own existence.

Exactly. I think that's what it turned into at least. And who is to say that Division didn't want those bad guys to come out on top? But then the Doctor would interfere and somehow she becomes the bad guy to Division. I mean, look at Tecteun blaming the Doctor for things that have happened to her. Clearly what an abuser tends to say to the person they abused

Edited November 30, 2021 by DanaK

[tennisgurl]

This was probably my least favorite of the Flux story, but its to the credit of the season that I still really liked a lot of it. My big problem with the episode was that they really went hard on the Timeless Child thing, which, as I've said in many episode, I don't like and would be happy if they retconned it away. If they just wanted to say that the Master was dicking with the Doctor and all of this was a lie I would have been just fine with it, but they are apparently doubling down. Its not going to ruin the show for me or anything, but I tend to dislike big retcons about the Doctors origins, especially as they often feel like showrunners being more interested in leaving their mark on the franchise then actually adding interesting new ideas to the shows universe. I really just don't like the idea itself, it feels stupid. It might be petty, but I just don't like that they decided to make it so that the Doctor isn't a "real" Time Lord, that has always been such a big part of her identity, for good or bad, and trying to take that away just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Plus, I often roll my eyes when the show really goes hard on the Doctor as The Special instead of just being an important person/alien who became important because of their actions, not because they're just super special, I like the Doctor as a hero, not as a chosen one who's the most important person in the universe. All of this seems so needlessly complicated and raises a ton of questions that I feel like we wont get or like the answers to.

I am not really sure why Swarm and Azure are even here, especially now that we know Tecteun and Divison are the real big bads. They look cool but aren't really impressing me as villains. I am also not sure about why they need to establish the Grand Serpent as a villain so late in the game, even though, like with Swarm and Azure, he looks cool, especially his creepy snakes that look like they crawled out of the Upside Down. 

Why is everyone so freaked out about leaving the universe? Didn't we done that before? Shouldn't Bad Wolf have something to say about this? I feel lie if I start picking this continuity apart I am going to end up with crossed eyes and a serious headache. 

I am torn on them retconning this guy into UNIT's whole history, messing with established continuity can be a real minefield unless you get every bit of the shows history with UNIT right, which I don't really think the show did. It also doesn't exactly make them look super competent, considering they let this guy who never aged and apparently just appeared one day to rise so high in their ranks with only Kate catching on that something was up. On the other hand, I am glad that they actually came up with a real reason for UNIT to be dissolved, which the show previously handwaved with a lame Brexit joke, and its great to see Kate Stewart again, hopefully this can lead to her coming back along with a new version of UNIT, which I think could be a fun reoccurring element for the show. I think they got rid of them because they wanted the Doctor to be standing alone against alien threats on Earth, but you can still have the Doctor mostly handling things, and they probably wouldn't be around in the past or certainly in space, they can just show up as the cavalry or as obstacles from time to time. 

There really was a lot that I liked about this episode, despite my complaints. I really like the Yaz/Dan/Jericho team up, I would have totally been happy to just see them having Indiana Jones style adventures, traveling the world and searching for ancient prophesies. I also am really glad that they are tying things together in ways that basically make sense, even if there are some bits that are totally unexplained, like the woman in the first episode in the remote cabin who became one of the Mardis Gras aliens. I enjoyed them mixing up character pairings as the subplots all came together, like Bel/Karvanista and Vinder/Di, who were all quite interesting and charming for what we got. The tunnels that hold doors all around the universe is interesting, to the point where I wish they had introduced it earlier so we can explore it more, and while I dislike a lot of the Timeless Child things surrounding the plot, the bad guys plan is certainly epic enough to justify all of this craziness. I also like the multiverse concept as something to be further explored. In general I have really enjoyed the Flux story, its been really exciting and engaging in ways that this era has often struggled to be, I would love it if the show could continue with a format similar to it, with two or three part stories mixing a bigger story and more self contained one. The rapid fire problem solving and manic plot twists really fits Jodi's energy. 

I wonder if, especially if Earth is taken by the Flux like everything else, the season will end with everyone, even the Cybermen and Daleks, having to team up to save the universe? if the universe is destroyed, it certainly affects them as much as anyone.

Edited November 30, 2021 by tennisgurl

[DanaK]

38 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if, especially if Earth is taken by the Flux like everything else, the season will end with everyone, even the Cybermen and Daleks, having to team up to save the universe? if the universe is destroyed, it certainly affects them as much as anyone.

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Why would those baddies want to fight over Earth if that's all that's left of the Universe? Of course, what can any of them do about it? I think only the Doctor can destroy and reverse the Flux since she's on the ship that's generating it

[gonzosgirrl]

I haven't kept up with much of the media around the show. Is this arc meant to end with Episode 6, or will it cliff-hanger over into the special(s)?

[Llywela]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I haven't kept up with much of the media around the show. Is this arc meant to end with Episode 6, or will it cliff-hanger over into the special(s)?

I don't think we know, but if I had to guess, I would anticipate that the Flux arc will end (with the Doctor heroically saving the universe, obviously, no doubt at great cost and with a lot of angst), but at least some of the story threads (most likely the Timeless Child stuff) will carry over into the specials.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

I don't think we know, but if I had to guess, I would anticipate that the Flux arc will end (with the Doctor heroically saving the universe, obviously, no doubt at great cost and with a lot of angst), but at least some of the story threads (most likely the Timeless Child stuff) will carry over into the specials.

Yeah, I think this is the best guess at the moment. Along with the Flux being destroyed, I think it’s highly likely Swarm and Azure will be beaten and made powerless and either be imprisoned or banished to another universe. It’s possible Division will get broken up and seemingly destroyed or scattered but with an implication that it wasn’t destroyed and it could come back strong someday. I think the Timeless Child stuff will be settled for now and put on the back burner

I think there’s a possibility there could be a cliffhanger that leads into the NYD special

Edited November 30, 2021 by DanaK

[Eulipian 5k]

So, the 1820 guy's tunnels also lead to the Temple, even from 1904. Is that how "the three Indianas" get to meet the others? Di and Vinder are together in Passenger, Bel and Karvanista are together, it seems the one place they will all end up together is the Temple of Astropos.

[benteen]

I greatly dislike the Timeless Child backstory and plot.  Doctor was running from Gallifrey, not the Division we never heard of.  The Doctor's "mother" is killed before we get any real information.  Jodie is selling the material well but the writing has consistently let her down and The Doctor could have just remained a man for how little making the character a woman has meant.

I do like the big story that is being built, though it is overstuffed and needing of more episodes. Liked seeing the origins of UNIT and the a tor from Downton who was used there.  That corporal who was mentioned couldn't have been Lethbridge-Stewart...even the UNIT dating controversy can't fix that.

Really liked seeing Kate Stewart return and so effectively as well.

Also will share the love for the Yaz/Dan/Jericho team.  That was great fun and Yaz has benefitted greatly from being the last companion standing.  Her skills as a police officer are finally being utilized as well. I hope she will remain on the show with the 14th Doctor.

[Eulipian 5k]

14 hours ago, Llywela said:

Also, never mind any fact checking team, Chibnall is a self-proclaimed super-fan, has been since he was a kid, so this error over the Brig's rank and the date he joined UNIT is exactly the kind of detail I would expect someone like him to get spot-on (honestly, it would have taken about 30 seconds of Googling to check)

You really think this grown man handles this multimillion property like a blogger in a chat room? Every production hires someone to handle continuity and script errors. They must do business differently in the UK. Why does critique of an art piece depend so much on absolutely malicious personal assumptions and attacks aimed at the very soul of the show runner? Is that snark or just spite and jealousy from the Writing 101 crowd? Some even wanted the show to die, just to spite Chibnall over TTC, what's that about?

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, benteen said:

That corporal who was mentioned couldn't have been Lethbridge-Stewart...even the UNIT dating controversy can't fix that.

They used an audio clip. He introduced himself as Lethbridge-Stewart. That's the trouble. It was a nice idea, poorly executed.

9 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

You really think this grown man handles this multimillion property like a blogger in a chat room? Every production hires someone to handle continuity and script errors. They must do business differently in the UK. Why does critique of an art piece depend so much on absolutely malicious personal assumptions and attacks aimed at the very soul of the show runner? Is that snark or just spite and jealousy from the Writing 101 crowd? Some even wanted the show to die, just to spite Chibnall over TTC, what's that about?

I'm not being malicious or making assumptions. I'm stating publicly known facts, mate. 😄 Chris Chibnall has been part of the Doctor Who super-fan crowd since the 1980s, he made TV appearances as such that far back, he was part of the little clique involved in the development of the extended universe through the wilderness years. In fact, he was so well known as a super-nerdy super-fan in the 80s that the actual show featured a guest character based on him! This isn't me throwing out baseless assumptions based on spite or jealousy (personal attack much? I thought the rule here was to debate the post, not throw out personal attacks against the poster). I'm talking about the man's actual public image and history, that's all, and pointing out that he made a mistake that seems uncharacteristic for him, which seems strange to me because it was something that should be right in his wheelhouse. Knowing the history of the show inside out is something he has publicly prided himself on for, literally, decades.

We're talking at cross purposes anyway, because you keep talking about a fact-checking team picking up on errors after they are written, whereas I'm expressing surprise that he wrote it wrong in the first place, given the kind of fan he has very publicly been for the last 40 years.

Also, if I think the writing of the show is poor, I have a right to say so, because discussing what we think of the show is, in fact, what this forum is for (look back, I have praised every episode this season up until this one, which I found weak). I notice you aren't defending that writing, despite repeatedly attacking me for critiquing it. You also seem to be accusing me of vitriol you have seen from other people elsewhere. Maybe tone it down a bit and drop this now? Better still, instead of complaining about what I think, maybe tell us what you thought about this episode - what did you like or dislike about it?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Llywela

[Chyromaniac]

Division- a section of time lord security.

Division- the space between universes where they operate.

Division- the thing they are meant to foster?

Sorry if I’m late to the party, but these multiple meanings just occurred to me.  In any case, I liked what we got about it in this episode.  I don’t mind them killing Tecteun.  All she needed to do was corroborate The Master’s claims from before- anything else we discover about Division will come from the memory holder.  I don’t mind that both the Flux and the Ravagers seem to be elements/byproducts of Division’s plans that just got out of control- that seems de rigueur for an evil, universe-ending plot.  I do wish we had a better idea of what Swarm and Azure are actually doing.

As for what gets wrapped up this season- I speculate that both they and the Flux will be resolved, however there will be more Division business, along with Prentiss/Grand Serpent stuff that will carry on to the specials.  Speaking of which, all the snake tattoos reminded me of the Corsair- were they confirmed dead in The Doctors Wife, or is it possible they survived their Tardis’ destruction by House in the bubble universe?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Chyromaniac

[Eulipian 5k]

7 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Speaking of which, all the snake tattoos reminded me of the Corsair-

I believe the Corsair was a snake eating it's tail, an old, old symbol of eternity. Mighty Python's (Grand Serpent) crew just show a snake.

Wasn't House outside of the Universe also? Division took no action when all those Time Lords were killed by House?

Division?: Tecteun spoke of leadership of Division falling to her. Is Division dispatched since the leader is dead? By the time of the 6B theory Division seems to have returned as the C.I.A. Have they ever been shown as ruthless as Division is?

Edited December 1, 2021 by Eulipian 5k
Division -->C.I.A.?

[Eulipian 5k]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

In fact, he was so well known as a super-nerdy super-fan in the 80s that the actual show featured a guest character based on him! 

Thx. I've always considered this the reason so many "super fans" are envious, and hurl such invective (piss poor, half assed writing) at anything this showrunner adds to the show. So many of their "critiques" read like they were written by Strax.

 

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

Maybe tone it down a bit and drop this now?

Tecteun, / Grand Serpent, is that you?

[Chyromaniac]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I believe the Corsair was a snake eating it's tail, an old, old symbol of eternity. Mighty Python's (Grand Serpent) crew just show a snake.

Ah- gotcha.  I forgot about it being an auroboros.  It’s been so long since I’ve seen that episode that I’m honestly surprised I remembered it was any kind of  snake tattoo at all.  I like the MP reference, but if they’re all spies with snake tats, can we call the group Cobra?  Or the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad?

[Bruinsfan]

I'm ambivalent about the main plot with the Flux and all. It seems petty of Division to want to destroy the entire universe because the Doctor's influence has disrupted their plans for it. If they're migrating to a different universe anyway, why bother? And why destroy it in 2021 rather than 4 billion years in the future after Gallifrey is destroyed (this time for reals! Honest!)

That said, Jodi has been knocking it out of the park. And Yaz, Dan, and Professor Jericho seem to have gelled into an awesome team, that I too want to see more of moving forward.

19 hours ago, benteen said:

Jodie is selling the material well but the writing has consistently let her down and The Doctor could have just remained a man for how little making the character a woman has meant.

I think choosing to go with the Doctor's gender making almost no difference to the stories was the better choice. She's still the same Doctor, after all. Aside from her few references to having been a man, and a bit more harumphing dismissal from patriarchal figures in past time periods, it's business as usual.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Bruinsfan

[Llywela]

14 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Thx. I've always considered this the reason so many "super fans" are envious, and hurl such invective (piss poor, half assed writing) at anything this showrunner adds to the show. So many of their "critiques" read like they were written by Strax.

...so you're saying that anyone who criticises Chris Chibnall's writing is only doing so because they are jealous that...the show's producers in the 80s found him so obnoxious that they killed him in effigy on-screen? That's hilarious. 🤣 Nice try. So what did you actually think of this episode, eh? Because I found it weaker than the rest of the season, for a variety of reasons, but I've still offered more positive commentary on it than you have, for all your complaints against the negative opinions of others.

Did anyone else spot that Vinder seems to be using some kind of Vortex Manipulator to travel from planet to planet? Not clear yet if it's an actual Vortex Manipulator, capable of time travel, or just a really long-distance personal transporter, but it was interesting to see that tech pop up again. Especially since he told Di he has a way to escape from Passenger. I'm interested to learn what the significance of Vinder and Bel's story will be, in the end. Not sure if I'm ready to offer odds on whether or not it will be a happy ending, though!

[HauntedBathroom]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

Thx. I've always considered this the reason so many "super fans" are envious, and hurl such invective (piss poor, half assed writing) at anything this showrunner adds to the show. So many of their "critiques" read like they were written by Strax.

 

Or it could just be because he's a terrible writer whose work is as flat as a pancake?

[kirkola]

On 12/1/2021 at 12:13 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

Thx. I've always considered this the reason so many "super fans" are envious, and hurl such invective (piss poor, half assed writing) at anything this showrunner adds to the show. So many of their "critiques" read like they were written by Strax.

Well, as a fan of quality television and good writing, I don't like Chibnall's approach at all.  And I say this, not as a "super fan" of Doctor Who, but one who was raised watching classic Who (when PBS would broadcast an episode) with my brothers, and didn't start enjoying it fully on my own until the more modern era.  I enjoyed both Davies and Moffat's eras, because the quality of the writing was there.  Though I'm perfectly willing to admit, both Davies and Moffat had their own problems. 

Chibnall's approach feels frenetic and chaotic without any cohesion.  And yeah, the Doctor is supposed to feel frenetic and chaotic at times...but the writring isn't supposed to be.

 

[Affogato]

On 11/29/2021 at 5:54 AM, John Potts said:

 

Well I thought of The Mara, but that's because I'm a fan of Classic Who! At least we got an explanation of why he's called the Great Serpent, even if he seems superfluous in the array of villains (I thought last week that he was going to turn out to be Swarm in disguise, though they are played by different actors - though he still might be, I suppose).

I thought of the gou’ald, frankly. Especially when it merged along the spine. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The Professor is a great addition to the team. I liked that they weren't giving up, and we jumped into them adventuring away. Couldn't the TARDIS find them? Or are we handwaving that her being degraded is why? Though painting the Great Wall was brilliant. They worked well together. And Yaz's hat.

I'm typically not a huge fan of when they up the scale of the show to the universe level. I like the Daleks, Cybermen, and all them. There's at least a purpose there. The universe this and that is just drawing on a wall to me. 

On 11/29/2021 at 12:50 AM, phalange said:

So Division introduced the flux to wipe out the whole universe because they hate that the Doctor inspires people? That seems a bit much.

It's big time petty. And that lady was full of it. They're terrified of the Doctor. I did like the speech about the Doctor inspiring people. That's all I want from the show. Some adventuring. 

On 11/30/2021 at 12:51 PM, tennisgurl said:

Plus, I often roll my eyes when the show really goes hard on the Doctor as The Special instead of just being an important person/alien who became important because of their actions, not because they're just super special, I like the Doctor as a hero, not as a chosen one who's the most important person in the universe.

I don't like anything about 'chosen' stories either. There's no reason for the Doctor to be 'chosen'. But think of it this way - One still stole the TARDIS and left and ended up on Earth. There wasn't any destiny involved. All the regenerations have been like that. Even now - Thirteen doesn't want the universe to end because of all the people. Being this 'timeless child' doesn't matter in the end. Given the show has been on long enough to collect a pension, continuity isn't really going to hold up past last week. The show is about being in the moment, much like the Doctor. 

I thought for a second there that the 'mother' was the Doctor. We're going to have to call the Doctor Thirteen Thousand. 

I'm not clear on the motivations of the Serpent. Was he in cahoots with Sontar all along, or just playing a long game to wipe out earth and that's the play he made? 

 

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Couldn't the TARDIS find them? Or are we handwaving that her being degraded is why?

The TARDIS doesn't have an operator currently and can't fly herself. She was left in the abandoned village, where UNIT found her. The Doctor is too busy being a prisoner of Division to retrieve the TARDIS and go retrieve her companions.

Quote

I'm typically not a huge fan of when they up the scale of the show to the universe level. I like the Daleks, Cybermen, and all them. There's at least a purpose there. The universe this and that is just drawing on a wall to me. 

Me too. A more intimate story with high personal stakes is often many times more compelling than any quickfire, non-stop-action 'end of the universe' drama.

[DoctorAtomic]

You know the universe is going to be saved. In the smaller stories, you still know the Doctor is going to 'win', but sometimes there's actual deaths and not always necessarily a reset button. 

[DanaK]

7-day figures: 4.7245 million viewers, rank 24th for the week

[Misskt]

So, was there no mention of Peggy?  Did they just shuffle her off to a boarding school with a "Sucks to be you, kid"?

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, Misskt said:

So, was there no mention of Peggy?  Did they just shuffle her off to a boarding school with a "Sucks to be you, kid"?

Boarding school would have to be paid for by someone. They probably handed her over to an orphanage - which would be unregulated in 1901. My great-grandmother's older half-sister was dumped in one at about the same time, at about the same age as Peggy, because she was illegitimate and her mother's new husband didn't want her. She had a miserable time and had already been shunted off into service by the time she reached her teens. Poor Peggy!

That said, the half-sister went on to have a remarkable life, she was an amazing person, so it wasn't all doom and gloom. Peggy might have had a difficult time of it, but there's no reason to suppose she wouldn't thrive - as, in fact, her older self proved.

[DanaK]

28-day rating: 5.320345 million viewers. Rank was 17th for the week

[DanaK]

On 12/6/2021 at 11:57 AM, DanaK said:

7-day figures: 4.7245 million viewers, rank 24th for the week

7-day figures have been revised up to 4.832849 million, rank 22nd for the week

28-day: rank was revised down slightly to 19th for the week