S23.E08: Nightmares In Drill City

[WendyCR72]

Airing on November 11, 2021:

Quote

Carisi asks the SVU for help with a murder investigation when one of the witnesses shows signs of abuse.

 

[dttruman]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:18 AM, WendyCR72 said:

Airing on November 11, 2021:

Quote

Carisi asks the SVU for help with a murder investigation when one of the witnesses shows signs of abuse.

I don't want to nitpick and it will probably have nothing to do with this episode, but doesn't the ADA have detectives (or investigators) to investigate cases and protect witnesses, I.E. Cassidy and Lenny Brisco ?

[Xeliou66]

35 minutes ago, dttruman said:

I don't want to nitpick and it will probably have nothing to do with this episode, but doesn't the ADA have detectives (or investigators) to investigate cases and protect witnesses, I.E. Cassidy and Lenny Brisco ?

Yes the DA’s office does have investigators.

I’m really not sure what to expect from this episode, I love when Carisi gets good screen time usually, but I wonder if they will trash the DA’s office heavily in this one, since Warren and his writing team seem to love doing that, and I also wonder if the supposed focus on Carisi won’t happen and it will just be another routine St Olivia saves the world hour. 

[wknt3]

34 minutes ago, dttruman said:

I don't want to nitpick and it will probably have nothing to do with this episode, but doesn't the ADA have detectives (or investigators) to investigate cases and protect witnesses, I.E. Cassidy and Lenny Brisco ?

Don't forget Munch! But in this case it sounds like it's not directly related to the case at hand so referring it to the appropriate unit of NYPD actually seems like what would happen IRL. And if it gives us another Carisi focused episode I'm willing to suspend any disbelief required even if its not. I mean this is a series that from the beginning has found the slimmest of connections to bring in what is supposed to be a specialized unit, surpassed only by NCIS (the sailor in a Village People cover band was murdered! Grab your gear!)

[dttruman]

With all the action this early, it looks like there is going to be some actual Trial drama. I hope it's good for Carisi. It looks like they are getting ready for trial, I wonder if Benson will be testifying as a therapist again?

Edited November 12, 2021 by dttruman

[Gigi43]

An hour of Carisi being ordered around. Benson helping the defendant. Rollins shaking her head as Carisi laid the solid case against Tori in the court, as he's supposed to do... I can't even with this nonsense. They're definitely setting the stage for Carisi to go back to being a cop because DA's are meanies or whatever. 

 

And then to rub salt in the wound that preview. I may prefer Barba wandering around hospitals looking for plugs to pull than involved in Wheatley's story.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Gigi43

[Ms Blue Jay]

Weird case for SVU to handle.  

I kept expecting a Keyser Soze moment at the end of the episode.  

[The Wild Sow]

15 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

I kept expecting a Keyser Soze moment at the end of the episode.  

Yes!

I was also expecting Mike & Chris’s sister to pop around the corner with a gun & blow Tori away. After Benson finished her “It’s not your fault, you’re a victim, you can work to put this behind you” speechifying of course!

Oh, SVU ... you have lost a step there. C’mon, you’ve had girl perps before. Even adorable young female perps! Siobhan Miller, Missy, Virginia from Wanderlust, the “Mean” girls, Lili Reinhardt in Lost Traveler, the Glasgowman girls, the roommate in Hothouse, the girls who framed Billy Porter...need I go on?

[WendyCR72]

22 minutes ago, The Wild Sow said:

Oh, SVU ... you have lost a step there. C’mon, you’ve had girl perps before. Even adorable young female perps! Siobhan Miller, Missy, Virginia from Wanderlust, the “Mean” girls, Lili Reinhardt in Lost Traveler, the Glasgowman girls, the roommate in Hothouse, the girls who framed Billy Porter...need I go on?

I think the issue is, SVU is now so into women being labeled as victims and empowering said victims that the other side of the coin is being sadly whitewashed in trying to downplay that women can be criminals, too.

It's not cut and dried, but the show certainly seems to want to play it that way to its detriment (as, once upon a time, the entire franchise and its three [successful, anyway!] series of the time used to try to be...).

[Xeliou66]

We returned to the show being dog shit this week. This episode was beyond predictable - of course the pretty white girl is innocent, of course the big bad DA’s office only cares about political optics, of course everything turns out okay in the end with no twists, and of course St Olivia gives an empowerment speech to the victim at the end. BLAH.

First of all, why is Carisi suddenly trying homicide cases? Did he get transferred from SVU to Homicide for some reason, that was implied but never explicitly explained. I’m guessing after this Carisi will be back on SVU cases.

There was literally no suspense to the episode - an unfortunate trend with modern day SVU, we saw the crime take place, complete with crap music playing over an opening montage, and there were no twists along the way.

Of course the females were victims because females are rarely villains now, because Mariska is all about pushing her agenda of “female empowerment”.

Of course there was more trashing of the DA’s office, because Warren loves those kinds of stories and I’m not sure why. Anyway, if the Mothership returns for a season 21 like they are planning, please either ignore SVU’s shit entirely or make it where the main characters are restoring integrity to the Manhattan DA’s office. The great Adam Schiff is rolling in his grave at this shit.

The one part of the episode I liked was Velasco and Fin - while they were little more than window dressing, their scenes were good, I liked Fin being a supportive friend in their scene outside the station, Fin is awesome, and their scene at the jail was good as well. I’m sick of Fin being underused, please give him more stuff in the future, and Velasco is a good addition to the squad so far - more interesting than Kat ever was.

Overall this episode was crap with a lot of SVU’s worst tropes packed into one hour. And if that wasn’t enough, now in the next episode they are dragging Barba into the Wheatley mess, seriously why the fuck would they do that? They already made Barba a baby killer, now they are trashing him more?! What a disgrace modern day SVU is. I honestly don’t know why I continue to watch this shitshow, this season has been a disaster with the exception of 1 episode. 

[Zoe]

21 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

First of all, why is Carisi suddenly trying homicide cases? Did he get transferred from SVU to Homicide for some reason, that was implied but never explicitly explained. I’m guessing after this Carisi will be back on SVU cases.

My feed crapped out so I didn't see the conclusion, but my thoughts on this are two-fold assuming the ending doesn't contradict them. 1) It takes care of the conflict of interest issue with Rollins for him to move to another division, and 2) it opens a path for him to move to the mothership. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

So they pull out all the stops to save the cute little white girl?  I can't even with this episode. I kept waiting for them to see through her poor little girl act to the person we saw in the first scenes but no, they made her the ultimate victim and only 'saved' the black girl, Jasmine, because they needed her to save Tori. If not for that they were happy to see the back end of Jasmine. 

The worst part is I honestly think the producers, writers, and actors believe they were doing something great and enlightening us with this particular episode.  I think they showed us their ass.

The problem with SVU is it's been on forever and the last standing Law and Order in the franchise (except for the new Organized Crime which doesn't count IMO). Their focus is very narrow and there are only so many permutations of the theme they can squeeze out. I miss orginal Law and Order where NY was the major character in the cast and the stories were varied and practically endless in their scope. They would never run out of things to write about. SVU is really fumbling around for something to say and has run dry.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

The problem with SVU is it's been on forever and the last standing Law and Order in the franchise (except for the new Organized Crime which doesn't count IMO). Their focus is very narrow and there are only so many permutations of the theme they can squeeze out. I miss orginal Law and Order where NY was the major character in the cast and the stories were varied and practically endless in their scope. They would never run out of things to write about. SVU is really fumbling around for something to say and has run dry.

And to think it is already automatically renewed for one more season after this. (As the prior renewal was for three seasons! This is the second of the three.) I'm an oddball in that - maybe because it was more of a mindfuck nature - Criminal Intent was actually tied with the Mothership as my favorites in the franchise. But seeing how SVU seems to be stuck in place, I'm glad CI ended its run after 10 seasons instead of becoming a faded copy of itself insofar as recycling themes goes. (And am sort of scared/leery about the Mothership coming back, due to the writing there is now! I hope my fears are misplaced there!)

If SVU is to continue on past next season - and I can see Dick Wolf game for that until Mariska literally drops - new writing/new blood is desperately needed here. But with the budget seemingly slashed every season, I'm not very hopeful about that.

[Andyourlittledog2]

1 minute ago, WendyCR72 said:

I'm an oddball in that - maybe because it was more of a mindfuck nature - Criminal Intent was actually tied with the Mothership as my favorites in the franchise.

I adored CI and was sorry it was canceled but not nearly as much as original L and O. I started watching original after it was already on for ten years, in reruns and taped it three times a day (it was on three different old eps a day, it was magical). And then watched CI and loved it. SVU was my least fave so of course it outlasted everyone. I have no idea why. But now I watch it because it's the only one there (until OC this year). I hated Stabler so of course he's back and doing crossover with SVU.  I guess I'm out of step with Dick Wolf or whoever decides these things.

But SVU had the least leeway in stories due to their narrow focus and it really shows. But still I watch so I guess I am part of the problem. 

All that being said, tonight's episode seemed especially egregious to me for what it's worth. At least it was pretty straightforward and didn't have all those weird twists and fake outs and the 'you think it's about this but it's really about something completely different' things this show loves so much. I get so irritated when I tune in expecting a nice old time kidnapping and find out after fifteen minutes it's really about stolen toaster fetishists or something.

[wknt3]

Can't say too much at the moment (thanks Spectrum!) but this was not good. Don't hate it quite as much as some of you seem to, but yeah it was very disappointing since as I said before my internet went out I was inclined to like the episode as long as they didn't screw up too badly. And then they went and screwed it up badly...

Edited November 12, 2021 by wknt3
ducking autocorrect! this is why hate posting on my phone...

[dttruman]

9 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Can't sat too much at the moment (thanks Specrtrum!) but this was not good. Don't hate it quite as much as some of you seem to, but yeah it was very disappointing since as I said before my internet went out I was inclined to like the episode as long as they didn't screw up too badly. And then they went and screwed it up badly...

I don't know how much you got to see, but I thought they had too much of Benson involved in this.

Edited November 12, 2021 by dttruman

[dttruman]

7 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

8 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

I kept expecting a Keyser Soze moment at the end of the episode.  

Yes!

I was also expecting Mike & Chris’s sister to pop around the corner with a gun & blow Tori away. After Benson finished her “It’s not your fault, you’re a victim, you can work to put this behind you” speechifying of course!

Oh, SVU ... you have lost a step there. C’mon, you’ve had girl perps before. Even adorable young female perps! Siobhan Miller, Missy, Virginia from Wanderlust, the “Mean” girls, Lili Reinhardt in Lost Traveler, the Glasgowman girls, the roommate in Hothouse, the girls who framed Billy Porter...need I go on?

This would definitely make it more dramatic and exciting, but it's not the race of the girl that is important to the writers, but how to make Benson look so good, standing up for victims and others look so unfeeling and disrespectful. That is the problem with this episode in a nutshell, Benson was way too involved like she usually is. She was telling Carisi what do again and literally testifying as a therapist to Maxwell and that other guy. Usually she testifies in court as a therapist (even though she definitely isn't) but I guess the writers just switched the location. Benson all the way to the end was involved with this girl.

[Pearson80]

This has to be one of the worst episodes and it ties with the guy that Benson had  Barbar prosecuted for rape for misleading that woman regarding his identity as the dean of Hudson university.  My hate for Benson and Rollins grew exponentially at the end of this stupid episode.

Rollins had no right to shame Carisi about doing his job as a prosecutor and it pissed me off when he went to her looking for validation with his are we good?  I rolled my eyes so hard.. 

I hated Carisi for acting like a defense attorney than a prosecutor.  The little bitch facilitated the murder of 3 people , maimed and terrorized people and she gets community service, counseling and 10 years probation.  In real life, a young lady did the same thing and she got life in prison along with the two men who killed the guy she lured on the internet by saying that she wanted to go out on a date with him.  She did not plan on killing the guy but the fact that she contacted him on the internet made her just as guilty as the men who pulled the trigger who were trying to rob him. She had a horrific childhood but nobody gave a damn.  

Benson is just terrible in so many ways and her speechifying at the end was the worst ever.  I think that I might be done with the show.  I have had it with Mariska's agenda.. I am all for helping women who have been victimized of a crime but not the way that Mariska is using the show to push her beliefs..

It is funny how we are supposed to feel sorry for the white girl who was victimized despite  having committed a crime but the Black guy gets none of that type of understanding.  Who is to say that he too was not victimized as a child and was conditioned by his environment to go into a life of crime to survive.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander. 

[gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, Pearson80 said:

Rollins had no right to shame Carisi about doing his job as a prosecutor and it pissed me off when he went to her looking for validation with his are we good?  I rolled my eyes so hard.. 

I hated Carisi for acting like a defense attorney than a prosecutor.  The little bitch facilitated the murder of 3 people , maimed and terrorized people and she gets community service, counseling and 10 years probation. 

Agreed. So not into Rollins/Carisi, he can and should do better. (Remember when she thought it was fine for sex workers to get murdered because her boyfriend used escorts? She can remove herself from that high horse any moment now.)

The actress playing Tori was good, at least. I wish they could've split the difference a little better, like got her sent to juvie (was she 17? I can't even remember) or a shorter sentence or something, but instead she just goes straight to a good college, free therapy, and Benson as her probation officer. 

[lazylump]

9 hours ago, Zoe said:

My feed crapped out so I didn't see the conclusion, but my thoughts on this are two-fold assuming the ending doesn't contradict them. 1) It takes care of the conflict of interest issue with Rollins for him to move to another division, and 2) it opens a path for him to move to the mothership. 

# 2.  I have been saying this since the revival has been announced. I completely agree. This way they can show a healthy relationship and get Carisi to the new show to bring SVU viewers over.  Checks all boxes and allows for lazy writing and more Saint Olivia time.

 

I also feel that Olivia / Mariska are being a bit overexposed.   Maybe it is my algorithm  in my computer but she is always coming in for the great scene and leaving the others to have the crumbs this season. She is featured in OC, was named woman of the year. And is teasing stabler/benson like crazy.

 

I was watching the older episodes season 20ish and still felt that there was more of a workplace vibe and sitting around the table and working together.  Doesn’t feel like it this season.  Besides if you get Rollins and Carisi together, show me how they are doing. How are they handling their work differences?  Are they just casual?  Has the guy moved in? ( if so, that would have been a tense time in that household 😁). How is phoebe?  Have they seen Kat lately?  Is velasco a rat in the department?   Have those conversations instead of some OC chat that isn’t warranted.  Everything this season so far has seemed to be a fight against the powers that be (although McGrath showed humanity last episode).  

Edited November 12, 2021 by lazylump

[melon]

As I was watching the episode, I was thinking that it was the best episode of the season....until the ending.  I'm still wishing to have more female villains because the series is simply too predictable. Even at the end, I was hoping the prostitute would somehow be punished for blowing off her meetings with her probation officer.

I'm hoping to have more intense story lines.  We could have had a prostitute actually pull the trigger, then have her say that she was forced into it by her pimp.  Or have a prostitute call and set up the multiple homicides but let one of the victims be close to an SVU detective, and let SVU fight among themselves over whether the prostitute should get off with probation. 

 

 

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

The little bitch facilitated the murder of 3 people , maimed and terrorized people and she gets community service, counseling and 10 years probation. 

 

3 hours ago, gesundheit said:

The actress playing Tori was good, at least. I wish they could've split the difference a little better, like got her sent to juvie (was she 17? I can't even remember) or a shorter sentence or something, but instead she just goes straight to a good college, free therapy, and Benson as her probation officer. 

Agree with both of these, she should have gotten at least 5 years. That Jasmine was a lot worse than what they knew, she could easily have shot Velasco if given a few extra seconds when the cops raided G's place.

[tennisgurl]

When I wished for more Carisi, was there a Monkeys Paw around? This is what I wanted but in the absolute worst way possible, this episode was just awful. I kept waiting for the big twist at the end where we find out that Tori really was the mastermind behind it all, maybe we go from Tori getting her pep talk from Olivia to her turning around with an evil smirk or they find her texting friends about how she played the idiot cops, but it was all just what you would expect. The pretty white girl is a poor victim who gets a million "its not your faults" from SVU, the evil DA's office can only think of optics instead of justice (or what the show decides is justice), the evil black guy is evil (although at least its not a bland white guy in a suite?) and the woman of color is a victim but not as much of a victim as the pretty white girl who gets a slap on the wrist for everything. Plus we get about a hundred terrible speeches, there's no mystery whatsoever, this shows attempt at exploring the culture surrounding homemade rap videos is as hip as my great aunts TikToc account, and as much as the DA was supposed to be so evil for being concerned about "optics" not only did they raise some decent points, but I found the optics of this episode to be pretty damn bad. The crew bends over backwards to save the pretty white girl from the evil black man after she leads to the murders of other black men and only bother to help the abused woman of color when it can help the poor innocent white girl. Its such classic SVU, they give lecture after lecture about how woke they are, but then fall right back into the classic "save the pretty white girl" format that so many crime shows love. 

14 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

the “Mean” girls, Lili Reinhardt in Lost Traveler, the Glasgowman girls, the roommate in Hothouse, the girls who framed Billy Porter...need I go on?

Remember how Hothouse ended on an ambiguous note, as they fought to get the pretty young white girl leniency for the murder, but then ended up pondering if they just helped a murderer get off with a slap on the wrist because of their own bias? That's back when the show was allowed to be ambiguous and woman could more often be villains. But now women are almost always victims of evil men who all need to be saved by Saint Olivia the victim whisperer, because that is apparently empowering. I am all for giving second chances, especially in bad circumstances, but I wish she had at least gotten something beyond therapy and a hug from Olivia. 

Poor Carisi, I hated seeing him get ordered around by Olivia and guilt tripped by Rollins for daring to do his job, I do not get why the SVU team acts like he's slipping into the dark side just because he is trying to be fair and follow the law or is the bad guy for trying to do his job. He and the DA's office is not wrong that they only have her word that she's an abused trafficking victim other then injuries, and she was involved in the murders of three people and the serious injury of a teenager, the character I most felt sorry for in this whole mess, regardless of the circumstances. Beyond that, if she gets out of prison time for being abused, why cant didn't they assume right away that the other woman was also being abused and forced into the murder? Then Olivia assumes they gave her the deal because "they knew she wouldn't take it" as part of some evil plan? And I guess its true, because Olivia is always right and everyone who is against her is always wrong. I also thought it was weird that we never got follow up with the family of the guy who's brother got honey trapped by Tori, but I guess we don't have time for the families of murder victims, we need Olivia giving ,ore speeches to beautiful young abused woman that Olivia needs to save. 

There were some nice character moments, like Finn and Velasco talking about Finn's time in Vice and Velasco's childhood, and the acting from the guest cats was good. I thought that Tori was a bit too wooden at first but I think that was what she was going for. Sadly those few decent moments were only a few small moments in a crappy episode. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

The only thing that would come close to redeeming this awful plot would be if later in the season we revisit Tori when she is caught going right back into the life and winds up either facilitating another murder or turning out some young girls herself. And SVU gets to see what their poor little girl was really like when she wasn't crying victim prettily for them.

And the ending here was such a cap on the whole terrible episode. Tori blows off TWO parole appointments, thus being in violation of parole and is found vaping outside her church and acting all hard while talking to Olivia but instead of being given some real consequences Olivia just gives her an atta girl pep talk and discussing colleges.  What in the holy heck are the writers smoking?

[Xeliou66]

I’ll add in another thought - I agree that the females got off very light, they should’ve gone to prison, they may have been victimized but they were clearly involved in the crimes, but of course the show makes it seem like they are nothing but pure as snow because that’s Mariska’s agenda, to push “female empowerment” and the idea that women are never guilty of anything and when they are they are victims of big bad men. And yeah while the show always vilifies the higher ups in the DA’s office, in this case they made some decent points, and yeah I’m beyond sick of seeing Carisi get ordered around by both sides and seeing SVU, particularly Benson and Rollins, vilify him for following the law instead of acting on his feelings and doing whatever SVU wants.

A much better example of a similar type of story is the episode Hot Pursuit from season 6 of the original L&O - in that episode a man and a woman he kidnapped go on a killing spree, and the man gets killed in a hostage situation, and they bring charges against the female, and McCoy is able to prove that she chose one of the places to do a robbery/murder and the jury found her guilty - throughout the episode they debated just how culpable she was and Kincaid seemed to be very sympathetic to her, and at the end McCoy was a bit unsure of what to do with her sentencing and said that the defense had a stack of experts to make a case for leniency and Schiff, seeing McCoy’s uncertainty, said “there’s no law that says you have to oppose them” and that’s how the episode ended. That was an example of a great episode with nuance and that left you contemplating, whereas in this episode the writers made it clear just what the viewers should think about who was guilty and responsible and who wasn’t, and beat you over the head with the “females pure and innocent” message. I really miss when there was nuance and compelling drama on the show, now it’s less about making an entertaining show and more about boosting Mariska’s ego and pushing an agenda. 

[dttruman]

21 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

And the ending here was such a cap on the whole terrible episode. Tori blows off TWO parole appointments, thus being in violation of parole and is found vaping outside her church and acting all hard while talking to Olivia but instead of being given some real consequences Olivia just gives her an atta girl pep talk and discussing colleges.  What in the holy heck are the writers smoking?

With all the terrible sequence of events in this episode, they could have fixed it with 30 extra seconds. Benson could have had two cops enter the picture and escort her away and telling her she shouldn't have violated her parole, like they have done to other felons at the end of a couple other episodes.

Why did they have one character smoking and have Tori vaping, For the cigarette and vaping sponsors?

Edited November 13, 2021 by dttruman

[The Wild Sow]

2 hours ago, dttruman said:

With all the terrible sequence of events in this episode, they could have fixed it with 30 extra seconds. Benson could have had two cops enter the picture and escort her away and telling she shouldn't have violated her parole, like they have done to other felons at the end of a couple other episodes.

I was still hoping for Chris & Mike’s sister to show up at the end & shoot her.

[CrystalBlue]

I was cheering for Carisi when he was in court because he was so right!  Then he's practically apologizing to his girlfriend Rollins!  It seems to me that they're setting up Carisi going back to SVU with his passion for saving the innocent victims over making his bones as an ADA prosecuting homicide cases.  Add in the revelation that Sweet Miss Innocent Victim Tori was in school every day and vacationing in Poland while she claims she's being forced into this life or else she'll be killed.  I'm surprised St. Olivia doesn't volunteer to pick her up and drive her to her mandatory therapy sessions so she'll stay on probation.  Ack!

[wknt3]

OK. I have internet again so let's go. Please note I watched this last night and I'm certainly not going to watch it again plus I am on my second beer so I may get some details wrong. But you watched this so I guess you can take some sloppy writing.

The Good:
Fina and Velasco. We really could used more of their nuance and healthy separation from the case. Plus actually trying to, you know, investigate sexually based offenses? We could have used more of them in general so that they each had enough material to merit their own lines.
I did like getting to see a lot of Carisi and actual trial scenes. Just wished they could have written something decent.
The guest cast. They did a great job of selling some crappy hackneyed cliches. I really would like to seem them with some decent writing.
It wasn't a 2-parter. And no Benoah or forced OC crossover!

The Bad:
The opening. Why do they still insist on doing these poorly edited attempts at highly stylized montages? Showing us the crime and leaving little to no doubt what happened? Are they that much cheaper/easier to write/shoot than giving us something interesting and different?
St. Benson of Manhattan and her acolyte Rollins are the only ones who understand the victims while everyone else can't see past their own short sighted self interest.
The ridiculous dumping on the DAs office continues? I'm honestly surprised that given the effort to bring back the mothership Dick Wolf hasn't told him to cut that shit out.
The constant sledgehammering with the music cues and close ups. I mean it's not like the writing wasn't clear about who we were supposed to be supporting or what we were supposed to be feeling...
You give us what should be a Carisi story and spend the whole time dumping on him and the entire concept of the rule of law and how we shouldn't worry about anything but the word of Benson, blessings and peace be upon her.
The script. This was an idea with a lot of potential to do an interesting story with nuance and explore some legal and social issues. And they turned it into yet another version of the same story they've been telling since the second half of Season 17? And make us believe that Carisi and his bosses are wrong for wanting to hold people responsible for their actions at all?

Overall this was a turd. The worst execution of the best idea of the season. What a disappointment.

[853fisher]

That was Betty Buckley as the prosecutorial supervisor!  I was trying to place her for a while.  Big Broadway actress last on the show about 15 years ago for a few episodes as a defense attorney.  What a waste of talent.

I bet SUNY New Paltz just loved that shoutout too. ;)  Tori must have heard that Hudson U is being a little more careful about whom they admit these days.

[WendyCR72]

30 minutes ago, 853fisher said:

That was Betty Buckley as the prosecutorial supervisor!  I was trying to place her for a while.  Big Broadway actress last on the show about 15 years ago for a few episodes as a defense attorney.  What a waste of talent.

I bet SUNY New Paltz just loved that shoutout too. ;)  Tori must have heard that Hudson U is being a little more careful about whom they admit these days.

Don't forget her role as Abby Bradford on Eight Is Enough in the 1970s/1980s, where a good number of people may remember her from, too...

[853fisher]

15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Don't forget her role as Abby Bradford on Eight Is Enough in the 1970s/1980s, where a good number of people may remember her from, too...

Don't tell me what to keep in mind!  Who are you, Benson?  (But actually thanks...I did forget. 😛)

[wknt3]

On 11/12/2021 at 3:23 AM, Andyourlittledog2 said:

 All that being said, tonight's episode seemed especially egregious to me for what it's worth. At least it was pretty straightforward and didn't have all those weird twists and fake outs and the 'you think it's about this but it's really about something completely different' things this show loves so much. I get so irritated when I tune in expecting a nice old time kidnapping and find out after fifteen minutes it's really about stolen toaster fetishists or something.

Yeah it's been almost a decade now since SVU was the biggest fan of the twist except for M. Night Shyamalan and Chubby Checker. And for about 5 years now they've far more often gone the other way where they just bludgeon you with a sledgehammer from beginning to end with who is responsible and why. I really wouldn't mind if they brought back "the shocking twist" but that would mean showing Benson could be wrong on a regular basis and requires hiring more actors (the initial suspects/witnesses, the MEs and CSU techs who find the toaster springs in the victim's body, the actual perps, etc.) so it's probably not happening.
 

19 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

 Benson is just terrible in so many ways and her speechifying at the end was the worst ever. 

I guess you skipped Season 18? Congratulations on being the smartest person here!

[dttruman]

16 hours ago, wknt3 said:

You give us what should be a Carisi story and spend the whole time dumping on him and the entire concept of the rule of law and how we shouldn't worry about anything but the word of Benson, blessings and peace be upon her.
The script. This was an idea with a lot of potential to do an interesting story with nuance and explore some legal and social issues. And they turned it into yet another version of the same story they've been telling since the second half of Season 17? And make us believe that Carisi and his bosses are wrong for wanting to hold people responsible for their actions at all?

Top-notch analysis!

[Andyourlittledog2]

8 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Yeah it's been almost a decade now since SVU was the biggest fan of the twist except for M. Night Shyamalan and Chubby Checker. And for about 5 years now they've far more often gone the other way where they just bludgeon you with a sledgehammer from beginning to end with who is responsible and why. I really wouldn't mind if they brought back "the shocking twist" but that would mean showing Benson could be wrong on a regular basis and requires hiring more actors (the initial suspects/witnesses, the MEs and CSU techs who find the toaster springs in the victim's body, the actual perps, etc.) so it's probably not happening.

Well to be honest, I stopped watching SVU many years ago because of Stabler.  I thought they must have an astronomical set repair budget due to the sheer amount of chewing of scenery Melloni does in every episode. His out of control tough guy antics just turned me off completely. I just started rewatching again three years ago out of desperation for something on broadcast TV to watch on Thursday nights other than comedies, and knowing Melloni was gone.  I don't much like Hargitay either but found her at least watchable in comparison. Weirdly, Melloni is still the same old tough guy overactor but I don't mind him as much on OC. Yet.

I am glad for the twists being few and far between, though. At least there's that. I hadn't realized that Hargitay was 'on a mission' but now that you guys have told me I can't unsee it. It explains so much about these plotlines being so bizarre and unrecognizable.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Andyourlittledog2

[psychfan]

I just cannot take young John Travolta seriously. It’s so distracting. I wish I knew if it was deliberate or if there’s just no way to make it less obvious. They could at least have someone joke abt it or something to acknowledge it.

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, psychfan said:

I just cannot take young John Travolta seriously. It’s so distracting. I wish I knew if it was deliberate or if there’s just no way to make it less obvious. They could at least have someone joke abt it or something to acknowledge it.

Huh? Did you post this on the wrong forum?

Nevermind I guess you are talking about Velasco.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Xeliou66

[Wizardpatch]

Good thing Kat peaced out before this episode or she would have yelled "white privilege" at the rest of the cast until they moved on to the next case.

[dttruman]

1 hour ago, psychfan said:

I just cannot take young John Travolta seriously. It’s so distracting. I wish I knew if it was deliberate or if there’s just no way to make it less obvious. They could at least have someone joke abt it or something to acknowledge it.

I think they could of pulled it off if they had shown this episode the 28th  and cut it short five minutes so the cast could dress up for a NYPD Halloween party and we know what Velasco would be.

[faithie]

An earlier poster said it best:  great idea - terrible execution.

The truly funny thing is that the writers seemed to.know they were going off the rails when Betty Buckley complained about the optics of going lenient on the teen girl. But then the writers said "nevermind" and proceeded to hammer home the woke politics.

There was a real opportunity to wrestle with questions of culpability and personal agency. (Especially given that the teen had more than ample opportunity to escape when she went to school everyday and even left the country.) But the writers got lazy and resorted to that magic word: trafficking.

At this point I have to.admit that my two-decade crush on Mariska is the only thing that keeps me tied to.this poorly-written drivel.

[psychfan]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

I think they could of pulled it off if they had shown this episode the 28th  and cut it short five minutes so the cast could dress up for a NYPD Halloween party and we know what Velasco would be.

Oh my gosh, that would have been so excellent. They really missed an opportunity there.

[CrystalBlue]

2 hours ago, faithie said:

An earlier poster said it best:  great idea - terrible execution.

The truly funny thing is that the writers seemed to.know they were going off the rails when Betty Buckley complained about the optics of going lenient on the teen girl. But then the writers said "nevermind" and proceeded to hammer home the woke politics.

There was a real opportunity to wrestle with questions of culpability and personal agency. (Especially given that the teen had more than ample opportunity to escape when she went to school everyday and even left the country.) But the writers got lazy and resorted to that magic word: trafficking.

At this point I have to.admit that my two-decade crush on Mariska is the only thing that keeps me tied to.this poorly-written drivel.

Excepting your crush on Mariska, which I don't share, the rest of your post is correct.  Betty Buckley is never wrong!

[dttruman]

15 hours ago, faithie said:

An earlier poster said it best:  great idea - terrible execution.

The truly funny thing is that the writers seemed to.know they were going off the rails when Betty Buckley complained about the optics of going lenient on the teen girl. But then the writers said "nevermind" and proceeded to hammer home the woke politics.

There was a real opportunity to wrestle with questions of culpability and personal agency. (Especially given that the teen had more than ample opportunity to escape when she went to school everyday and even left the country.) But the writers got lazy and resorted to that magic word: trafficking.

IMO, this episode is another example of bad prioritizing when it comes to writing a good script for an episode. I believe it also has been mentioned before, the writers decide (or are told) how much time to set a side for Benson first, then Rollins and so forth, unless the actor (who is also an executive producer) defers until the next script. Writing the dialogue becomes a real challenge considering the time constraints. So they resort to changing the premise or using recycled gimmicks like the previously mentioned "trafficking" as excused to manipulate the plot. Any writing team that can come up with a good thought provoking and entertaining scr[pt under these conditions needs to be recognized as miracle workers and also given Sainthood.

Edited November 15, 2021 by dttruman

[Arthur Jury]

UNREAL ! THE POLICE DEPT. SVU IS ACTING AS ADVOCATE AND DEFENSE INVESTIGATORS F0R A MURDER SUSPECT ARRESTED BY ,,,,, WAIT FOR IT ... SVU ????  Sorry all caps lock on too lazy to retype

[tennisgurl]

On 11/17/2021 at 12:23 AM, Arthur Jury said:

UNREAL ! THE POLICE DEPT. SVU IS ACTING AS ADVOCATE AND DEFENSE INVESTIGATORS F0R A MURDER SUSPECT ARRESTED BY ,,,,, WAIT FOR IT ... SVU ????  Sorry all caps lock on too lazy to retype

Silly you, must have forgotten that Olivia gets to decide who the victims really are! Just carefully step over all of those dead bodies to get to them! 

[Irlandesa]

On 11/11/2021 at 11:47 PM, WendyCR72 said:

I think the issue is, SVU is now so into women being labeled as victims and empowering said victims that the other side of the coin is being sadly whitewashed in trying to downplay that women can be criminals, too.

It's not cut and dried, but the show certainly seems to want to play it that way to its detriment (as, once upon a time, the entire franchise and its three [successful, anyway!] series of the time used to try to be...).

 

On 11/12/2021 at 3:14 PM, Xeliou66 said:

A much better example of a similar type of story is the episode Hot Pursuit from season 6 of the original L&O - in that episode a man and a woman he kidnapped go on a killing spree, and the man gets killed in a hostage situation, and they bring charges against the female, and McCoy is able to prove that she chose one of the places to do a robbery/murder and the jury found her guilty .

I was looking for a mindless diversion so I started watching random episodes from the past few seasons.  This ep made me ragey.  I was hoping it'd be a fun twist like those past L&O episodes (The Amanda Peet episode was great but so was the pre-Grey's Ellen Pompeo episode) where young women could be manipulative and villainous. 

I was hopeful when the actress seemed to give nuance to her telling of her trauma  that made me think she was lying.  And especially hopeful when Jasmin told Velasco "I'm surprised you'd fall for that pretty white girl magic."  But no--in the end, the fact that she's a pretty white girl is supposed to be a disadvantage in this world where she's just not getting the breaks.

[jabRI]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:45 PM, faithie said:

There was a real opportunity to wrestle with questions of culpability and personal agency. (Especially given that the teen had more than ample opportunity to escape when she went to school everyday and even left the country.) But the writers got lazy and resorted to that magic word: trafficking

This!  How is it trafficking, she was never physically restrictred or forced to live with this guy.   Like Carisi said, she lived at home, went to school, had all the chances in the world to tell someone.  If really scared, talk Mom into moving to Florida.  This guy's not 'connected', once out of state she'd be forgotten.  She was vulnerable and made poor choices, and in the end even admitted to missing 'the life'.  By that book, everyone who had a rough childhood should get a pass when becoming a criminal later.  And even if she thought no one would get hurt, she set up an armed robbery.  Probation?  Sure, let's set that precedent!

[dttruman]

6 hours ago, jabRI said:

This!  How is it trafficking, she was never physically restrictred or forced to live with this guy.   Like Carisi said, she lived at home, went to school, had all the chances in the world to tell someone.  If really scared, talk Mom into moving to Florida.  This guy's not 'connected', once out of state she'd be forgotten.  She was vulnerable and made poor choices, and in the end even admitted to missing 'the life'.  By that book, everyone who had a rough childhood should get a pass when becoming a criminal later.  And even if she thought no one would get hurt, she set up an armed robbery.  Probation?  Sure, let's set that precedent!

IMO, I believe Hargitay had some influence with the premise of episode. Who ever Benson was trying to save, had to be a legitimate "victim". And Benson always protects the right victim. I agree, she could have left at anytime and Benson should have known that, but the producers (and writers) left it as a mystery to whether how much she was involved in the murder ripoff. Most would have thought her guilty of that considering her past actions, but they wanted to give Benson the chance to vouch for her as a legitimate victim.

[Route66]

On 11/11/2021 at 8:07 PM, dttruman said:

I don't want to nitpick and it will probably have nothing to do with this episode, but doesn't the ADA have detectives (or investigators) to investigate cases and protect witnesses, I.E. Cassidy and Lenny Brisco ?

It's always been a common SVU trope that only SVU detectives are sensitive and caring enough to investigate cases that deal with certain situations.