TV Tropes: Love 'em or Loathe 'em

[Mrsmaul2021]

3 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Off topic but can you imagine being her kid and hearing their “love story.”

”Well honey, I had an abortion once before and never really wanted kids again, but then I just had to keep you when I got accidentally knocked up even though all I did was cry and mope when I got the positive pregnancy test but your father thought I should keep you and it would be all rainbows and sunshine from here on out. So we both agreed while looking out at the river with mopey expressions. Oh, and when we got married, your father planned the whole thing behind me back and told me I should marry him right here and now! Did I also mention that on our first date he killed a guy, and after we were together about a year the first time, he told me I wasn’t that pretty and wasn’t that special? So of course I had to marry him and have you four years later, even though I fully regret ever giving birth to you.” 

 

 

Well going along with the theme.

 

Elizabeth can tell Ella how her father murdered a man.

Sam can tell her son how she murdered his own father(ooops he witnessed that) 

Carol can tell the twins that Doug cheated on her so much she attempted suicided and proceed to cheat with him on her fiancé. 

 

But lets not get off topic 😊

 

2 hours ago, Palimelon said:

Same here.

Indeed.

Indeed as well.

 

 

yeah but some people hate them so, they overemphasize every little thing they do despite the fact that many on this show is dysfunctional and poor at relationships. 

[Palimelon]

For me the biggest sin was Mark and Lizzy being an utter black hole of chemistry. Honestly a morgue of corpses had produced more warmth than they ever did. And we know Lizzy can bring the chemistry, as she did with Peter.

[Mrsmaul2021]

4 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

For me the biggest sin was Mark and Lizzy being an utter black hole of chemistry. Honestly a morgue of corpses had produced more warmth than they ever did. And we know Lizzy can bring the chemistry, as she did with Peter.

 

 

I didn't hate Mark and Elizabeth. I thought they were cool but like Abby and Carter, they felt manufactured. Whereas Elizabeth/Benton, Abby/Luka felt "natural" in terms of chemistry and how they played off of each other. Even though I felt Mark and Elizabeth played well off of each other and had some nice moment but  Season 8 is when they piled on all the drama. 

[proserpina65]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:35 AM, Palimelon said:

For me the biggest sin was Mark and Lizzy being an utter black hole of chemistry. Honestly a morgue of corpses had produced more warmth than they ever did. And we know Lizzy can bring the chemistry, as she did with Peter.

I thought Elisabeth and Peter felt forced and she had far more chemistry with Mark.

[kathyk2]

On 7/15/2024 at 11:35 AM, Palimelon said:

For me the biggest sin was Mark and Lizzy being an utter black hole of chemistry. Honestly a morgue of corpses had produced more warmth than they ever did. And we know Lizzy can bring the chemistry, as she did with Peter.

Peter and Elizabeth were great together I'll never forgive Eriq Lesalle for refusing to kiss Alex Kingston. If she had refused to kiss him she would have been called a racist. 

[Raja]

56 minutes ago, kathyk2 said:

Peter and Elizabeth were great together I'll never forgive Eriq Lesalle for refusing to kiss Alex Kingston. If she had refused to kiss him she would have been called a racist. 

There was a lot of intra Black social and political pressure behind Eric LaSalle. He saw the successful Black character for who it seemed a Black woman was not good enough to match. With few interracial couples around the TV dail and barely a generation past Loving versus Virginia someone was bound to take that stand.

[Palimelon]

Quote

He saw the successful Black character for who it seemed a Black woman was not good enough to match

Yeah, it was along those lines, nothing to do with him not wanting to kiss Alex Kingston because she was White. And it wasn't only that a Black woman wasn't a good enough match per se, but that the 2 relationships his character had with Black women up to that point weren't painted in the best light as they were with Alex Kingston's character (the first one he was involved with a married woman, the second time he knocked up a woman he was dating and they didn't quite get along even after that).

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

There was a lot of intra Black social and political pressure behind Eric LaSalle. He saw the successful Black character for who it seemed a Black woman was not good enough to match. With few interracial couples around the TV dail and barely a generation past Loving versus Virginia someone was bound to take that stand.

Exactly.  Eriq was one of the main characters on the hottest show on TV at the time, playing a role that black actors didn't often get. He was rightfully very conscious of the image he projected as Benton and had heard from several prominent figures in civil rights concerning the interracial romance.  The fact that his two prior relationships; one with a married woman and the other one where the relationship was in early stages, but light and casual when she got pregnant; played into old stereotypes of black men.  Then his character meets Lizzie; she's available and doesn't have baggage and everything is perfect. 

I believe Eriq LaSalle and Alex Kingston were and are friends and, while she loved working with him, AK understood and accepted why the romance had to end.  I haven't heard any hint that she had a problem with the choice he made.

[Bastet]

Since others have already corrected the misconception of LaSalle's actions regarding the Benton/Corday relationship, I will simply add quotes from the actor himself when asked about it at the time (and add that he not only said he liked working with Alex Kingston, he said he liked the Benton/Corday relationship; as already conveyed, the issue was it didn't exist in a vacuum, and within the context of Benton's other relationships, it was a problem).

Quote

As an African American man, it becomes a bit offensive if the negative things [in relationships between black characters] are all you’re showing.  Because in real life, we romance and get on each other’s nerves and laugh and do all the things that any other race of people do.  So if the only time you show a balanced relationship is in an interracial relationship, whether it’s conscious or sub-conscious, it sends a message I’m not comfortable with.

They were sending a message that I didn’t want to be a part of, which was the only time that this man becomes human and tender and vulnerable and open is when he falls in love with a white woman.

Of the two relationships that I had prior to Corday, one was an adulterous relationship with Jeanie Boulet and then the next relationship I got into was with Carla.  And unfortunately the writing there was, every time you see them they’re either fighting or fucking.

In another interview in which he said much of the same things, he had this simple comment:

Quote

We have to take care of the message that we're sending as African Americans . . . that we have the exact same type of exchanges with our mates that we get to see our white counterparts have.

 

Edited July 18 by Bastet

[Gharlane]

On 7/14/2024 at 3:18 AM, Palimelon said:

I think thats why some couples do destination weddings…at least the people in attendance get a nice view during the ceremony (having been to a few myself, I can say it helps).

Destination weddings are terrible.  It forces you to spend a lot of money to attend and feels like a bit of a loyalty test. 

[Palimelon]

I guess it all depends on your viewpoint.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Gharlane said:

Destination weddings are terrible.  It forces you to spend a lot of money to attend and feels like a bit of a loyalty test. 

Both my kids had weddings in Mexico. They were beautiful but hardly anyone came. Which was ok. More intimate. 

[Quof]

42 minutes ago, Haleth said:

They were beautiful but hardly anyone came. Which was ok. More intimate. 

And that's the choice the couple makes - do we want people to attend our wedding?  If we do, it shouldn't cost the people who are presumably important to us an arm and a leg (plus their paid time off work) to spend their vacation in a destination they didn't choose. 

[Zella]

It doesn't have to be just destination weddings. I went to a wedding in college that was on the bride's family farm. It was a lovely location, but it was very hard to find in an area with poor phone reception. It also was the first weekend of spring break when most people had already made plans. I found it because I'm used to navigating in the sticks but I still struggled with it, and the ceremony and wedding reception were both very poorly attended. I later found out half the college theater department--which one of the couple was a member of--just drove around in circles all afternoon and never could find the farm. 

I totally get the sentimental reasons why she wanted to get married there, but it wasn't a particularly practical location for most of her guests to even find. 

Edited July 24 by Zella

[proserpina65]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:28 AM, Quof said:

And that's the choice the couple makes - do we want people to attend our wedding?  If we do, it shouldn't cost the people who are presumably important to us an arm and a leg (plus their paid time off work) to spend their vacation in a destination they didn't choose. 

Eh, it's a choice and reasonable people understand if guests cannot come.  Unreasonable people will be unreasonable no matter where they get married.

[Palimelon]

Yeah most people who do destination weddings factor in the costs and time needed for their guests so can be quite understanding if people can't make it. Most, anyway, not all.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, Palimelon said:

Yeah most people who do destination weddings factor in the costs and time needed for their guests so can be quite understanding if people can't make it. Most, anyway, not all.

Also, in fairness, perhaps most of the people will be travelling anyway and any wedding will be a destination wedding for most of them. In that case making it a nicer vacation begins to make sense. 

[Affogato]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:33 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Isn't Archie Bunker all satire though? Viewers aren't supposed to be laughing along with him, they are supposed to be laughing at how much of an asshole he is. A modern day version would be like if they made a sitcom along the lines of The Colbert Report.

One of the reasons All In The Family worked was because they were all people and you managed to feel for all of them, including Archie. You understood why Edith stayed in the relationship, even if you wanted better for her. When Edith died you could really feel for Archie, because there had been a real relationship there. 

[Palimelon]

Yeah, especially when the destination in the wedding was the Amalfi Coast...now that was a great 4 days.

[merylinkid]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:33 AM, Mabinogia said:

And Martin, at the end, tears me up every time.

When they are in the judges' chambers and Daphne and Niles admit to the family they are already married, everyone is all yelling and up in arms.   Martin gets up and goes to the door.   You think he is just so mad he is walking out.   Everyone is looking at him.   He opens the door.   Then very quietly says "If you're already married, what are you doing here?   Go enjoy your honeymoon."   

[DoctorAtomic]

I went to one destination wedding because I was great friends with both. I met them separately, and, really, they were even cooler together. Talk about hijinks. But we went to a resort where the wedding was just a package and all we had to do was show up for 15 minutes. Other than that it was rum & cokes by the pool and summer reading. Also beach. 

We went to another resort for their 5th, but it was a couples only resort and I was single. You had to sign some form with your spouse to check in, but I was single, so when they asked me where my wife was, I started tearing up, "I... I can't... She's not here..." Oh, it's ok, no, no, it's fine, let's get you checked in. 

I had them in stitches later. 

[andromeda331]

I've been to two destination weddings. The first one was at a dock followed by a river cruise. The river cruise was great. But the docks had no chairs and you really couldn't hear anything that was being said during the ceremony. The second was at the university where they met. It was really small but it was nice. Although the families of both couples had a reception at home for them and all those who couldn't make it so they still had two more receptions to go. I'm not sure it's worth if you still end up going to two receptions.

One wedding was up in the mountains in a beautiful stone church built in the 1800s in December and they forgot heaters. The wick on the candles were frozen. It was so cold everyone was hugging before and after the wedding for warmth. Whether you knew each other or not.  The bride and groom were the only ones who didn't notice how cold it was. They still get teased about how cold it was years later. 

[Blergh]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I've been to two destination weddings. The first one was at a dock followed by a river cruise. The river cruise was great. But the docks had no chairs and you really couldn't hear anything that was being said during the ceremony. The second was at the university where they met. It was really small but it was nice. Although the families of both couples had a reception at home for them and all those who couldn't make it so they still had two more receptions to go. I'm not sure it's worth if you still end up going to two receptions.

One wedding was up in the mountains in a beautiful stone church built in the 1800s in December and they forgot heaters. The wick on the candles were frozen. It was so cold everyone was hugging before and after the wedding for warmth. Whether you knew each other or not.  The bride and groom were the only ones who didn't notice how cold it was. They still get teased about how cold it was years later. 

Now you know why there were so MANY honeymoon babies born to newlyweds back then!

To bring this back on topic, I wish there were  more TV characters who'd successfully fend off those guilt-tripping kin/cronies who'd insist on them throwing/attending major blowout and/or destination weddings instead of the usual deal of the characters caving in and going broker than broke with everyone but the guilt-trippers being sorry for a long time thereafter!

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, I forgot. I went to a wedding at a winery. It wasn't necessarily destination because I lived in the region. The bride and groom chartered a bus so no one had to drive. 

[andromeda331]

When planning their own wedding Castle and Beckett ask Ryan how he kept his wedding small. He answered it was all they could afford, and half his family isn't speaking to him. Yeah, that's about right.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

On 7/26/2024 at 3:55 PM, Affogato said:

Also, in fairness, perhaps most of the people will be travelling anyway and any wedding will be a destination wedding for most of them. In that case making it a nicer vacation begins to make sense. 

My little brother's best friend is getting married in November. He and his fiancée live in a completely different city than their immediate families and their extended families are spread out across the globe. Every single important guest would have to travel for their wedding, so they decided to do a destination wedding. They chose a city that is relatively easy to get to, somewhere fun that people would want to go on a vacation, and somewhere as expensive as you want to make it--New Orleans. My mom got a save the date card last year for this event, and I told her she is going and that I will make the sacrifice to get her there. (she is perfectly capable of going on her own, but she is not comfortable paying more than $100 a night for a hotel room and is not adventurous enough to explore the city by herself).

[Notabug]

53 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

My little brother's best friend is getting married in November. He and his fiancée live in a completely different city than their immediate families and their extended families are spread out across the globe. Every single important guest would have to travel for their wedding, so they decided to do a destination wedding. They chose a city that is relatively easy to get to, somewhere fun that people would want to go on a vacation, and somewhere as expensive as you want to make it--New Orleans. My mom got a save the date card last year for this event, and I told her she is going and that I will make the sacrifice to get her there. (she is perfectly capable of going on her own, but she is not comfortable paying more than $100 a night for a hotel room and is not adventurous enough to explore the city by herself).

I've got cousins in New Orleans and highly recommend it for a destination wedding.

My sister, living in Chicago at the time, married an Aussie who was also living there.  Since both families were going to have to travel, they sort of split the difference and got married in Hawaii.  Beautiful wedding with only 11 of us in attendance which suited my sister just fine, she didn't want a big show.  They celebrated their 25th last year and invited their original guests who are still around as well as a few others to join them in Hawaii.  Nearly 3O came that time.

Edited July 29 by Notabug

[Mrsmaul2021]

Watching Family Matters. Maybe because I am older but I find Steve Urkel annoying and a borderline stalker. Yet they always set it up for the audience to feel bad for him. So annoying

[Blergh]

1 minute ago, Mrsmaul2021 said:

Watching Family Matters. Maybe because I am older but I find Steve Urkel annoying and a borderline stalker. Yet they always set it up for the audience to feel bad for him. So annoying

[Gharlane]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:05 PM, Affogato said:

One of the reasons All In The Family worked was because they were all people and you managed to feel for all of them, including Archie. 

As I understand it, his shows worked well because you could say "Hey! That's just like _____!" for nearly every character.

[Affogato]

23 minutes ago, Gharlane said:

As I understand it, his shows worked well because you could say "Hey! That's just like _____!" for nearly every character.

They were well developed characters. You wouldn’t agree with all of them  or like them all the time, just like family. 

[proserpina65]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:05 PM, Affogato said:

One of the reasons All In The Family worked was because they were all people and you managed to feel for all of them, including Archie. You understood why Edith stayed in the relationship, even if you wanted better for her. When Edith died you could really feel for Archie, because there had been a real relationship there. 

I hated the show and all the characters, including Edith.  I felt like they were all caricatures and not real people.

[Affogato]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I hated the show and all the characters, including Edith.  I felt like they were all caricatures and not real people.

That was your loss, I suppose. Too bad. 

[Dimity]

On 7/26/2024 at 4:05 PM, Affogato said:

When Edith died you could really feel for Archie, because there had been a real relationship there. 

I wasn't a huge fan of All in the Family (probably too young to really get what they were going for) but I that episode in the spin off when we learn Edith had died was incredibly well done.  When Archie finds her slipper?  Chills and I admit I teared up.

Edited August 6 by Dimity

[proserpina65]

20 minutes ago, Affogato said:

That was your loss, I suppose. Too bad. 

No, not my loss at all.

[Zella]

Archie Bunker is one of the most insufferable characters I've ever encountered. I had been excited to watch the show because it is considered such a classic, but watching it felt like being trapped at a bad family reunion with a drunken asshole uncle. No, thank you. 

[Raja]

I think All In The Family and Archie Bunker in particular where set in a particular societal pivot point. The big gains in racial civil rights had just been won and the coming LGBTQ changes were just starting. A 60 something Archie in the 80s would not work like a 50 something in the 70s and his character did change in the continuation spinoff.

With today's eyes we might hate him but back then he represented a large part of the nation and Carroll O'Conner and Norman Lear did use their platform in making fun of Archie to continue to lobby for changing their generation's view 

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

With today's eyes we might hate him but back then he represented a large part of the nation 

He still does, and I have heard a lot of people say they like Archie because they think he's telling it like it is. The point of the character flies far over their heads. 

[Dimity]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

With today's eyes we might hate him but back then he represented a large part of the nation and Carroll O'Conner and Norman Lear did use their platform in making fun of Archie to continue to lobby for changing their generation's view 

Carroll O'Conner was one of the first actors I became aware of whose character could not have been less like himself in real life.   

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Dimity said:

Carroll O'Conner was one of the first actors I became aware of whose character could not have been less like himself in real life.   

Same here. I hated him as Archie but loved him on In the Heat of the Night as  Sheriff Gillespie. 

[Affogato]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:50 PM, Zella said:

Archie Bunker is one of the most insufferable characters I've ever encountered. I had been excited to watch the show because it is considered such a classic, but watching it felt like being trapped at a bad family reunion with a drunken asshole uncle. No, thank you. 

That really was the point. But if you want to change people’s views you need to sit at the table with them. 

[Mrsmaul2021]

I am still binging Family Matters and I will say, jokes do not land when they do not make sense.  It seems every other ep somebody was falling through the roof, my question is, how do they go from the roof straight to the living room? They just bypass the attic and second floor?  Even once when the roof was merely leaking, it went allllllll the way down to the living room.  Just stupid. 

[Blergh]

20 hours ago, Mrsmaul2021 said:

I am still binging Family Matters and I will say, jokes do not land when they do not make sense.  It seems every other ep somebody was falling through the roof, my question is, how do they go from the roof straight to the living room? They just bypass the attic and second floor?  Even once when the roof was merely leaking, it went allllllll the way down to the living room.  Just stupid. 

I agree! Since it was supposed to have been a renovated Victorian house, if they HAD to have people and rain falling into the living room despite the obviousness of there  being an upstairs and an attic ABOVE said living room, why didn't they consider having at least part of the living room beneath a glass-roofed atrium that would have extended  out from the main part of the house (like the Addams Family's greenhouse behind the main parlor ).

That was one of the lesser failings of the show, though. ..

Edited August 12 by Blergh

[EtheltoTillie]

On 8/4/2024 at 4:51 PM, Mrsmaul2021 said:

Watching Family Matters. Maybe because I am older but I find Steve Urkel annoying and a borderline stalker. Yet they always set it up for the audience to feel bad for him. So annoying

This is low-hanging fruit for this thread!  Everyone hates Urkel LOL. 

Edited August 13 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:58 AM, Blergh said:

FWIW, one of my fave TV weddings was the 1968 wedding of the former middle son Robbie Douglas  (the late Don Grady[Agretti] )with the fetching collegian Katie Miller (Tina Cole)  on My Three Sons.

For one thing it showed the dynamics of an interesting extended family on her side reminiscing about family history, while preparing for the latest wedding. I also liked how the brides'  extended family and bridesmaids carefully strategized with military precision each step as they were getting ready for the big moment giving themselves plenty of time to get everything perfect.

In contrast Robbie and the rest of the all-male Douglas clan frantically woke up just an hour and a half before the big event in a panic  and had to quickly clean themselves up and get suited up before racing to the church while being worried about their missing family dog [which was where the bulk of the sitcom episode's humor arose].

Of course, the two parties came together (and so did the family dog Tramp at the last minute in the church itself) and they had an otherwise conventional and uneventful ceremony with the whole wedding party looking immaculate despite the male half of it having been zonked to the world 90 minutes earlier.

P.S. Bonus points for them actually using a hithero unseen venue to conduct the wedding instead of a regular set (e.g. a communal apartment, an office, cafe,etc.) which few folks in real life would opt to use to tie the knot.

For those who don't follow the My Three Sons thread, our @Blergh has an advanced degree in My Three Sons. 

[meep.meep]

Can he/she spot the scenes where Fred MacMurray isn't present with the rest of the actors?  Apparently he hated everyone else and didn't want to be there so they filmed him separately and pasted it all together.  A prime example of a show that continued long after it's expiration date.

[Dimity]

36 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Apparently he hated everyone else and didn't want to be there so they filmed him separately and pasted it all together. 

My understand of this is that he negotiated a contract where he was only available for filming a certain number of weeks per year.  So they filmed his scenes separately but he was interacting with the other actors.  This meant they had to keep track of clothing and hair cuts etc for the other actors in order for each episode to flow smoothly.  

[EtheltoTillie]

43 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Can he/she spot the scenes where Fred MacMurray isn't present with the rest of the actors?  Apparently he hated everyone else and didn't want to be there so they filmed him separately and pasted it all together.  A prime example of a show that continued long after it's expiration date.

As @Dimity says, I don't think he hated everyone.  He just managed to negotiate a contract for the world's shortest work year. 

[Blergh]

9 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

For those who don't follow the My Three Sons thread, our @Blergh has an advanced degree in My Three Sons. 

Thanks for that, @EtheltoTillie!

FWIW, Mr. MacMurray doesn't appear to have had abiding dislikes re his fellow performers but some he liked better than others (e.g. William Demerest was one of his besties while he got annoyed with the child performer Dawn Lyn pulling his hairpiece as per Barry Livingston). The main deal was that by the time M3S debuted Mr. MacMurray had become a very big established movie star and also was married for the 2nd time with two young daughters. Hence, since he had had to work nonstop for the entire marriage to his late first wife (and barely interacted with his elder two children by her), he wanted to be able to spend as much time as possible with his newer family so THAT was his main MO in negotiating having a tiny shooting schedule for himself. The result was with ALL scenes in each ROOM done at once  and virtually ANY time he himself was not in a shot, that meant that he wasn't there and they'd had a woman stand in read his lines but in the meantime all the other performers shot out of order with the whole deal of wardrobe, hair and makeup being meticulously recorded so the editors could put everything together later on.  Yes, virtually all surviving performers have said that this was acting boot camp for them!

Of course, it needs to be mentioned that because he HAD been a big movie star, he was able to get many other movie performers not regularly seen to participate in the show- including Gloria Swanson, James Stewart and Jane  Wyman.

[Mrsmaul2021]

If it's one trope I have grown to hate in television shows,  it's love triangles. IMO they are hardly written good or most importantly,  fair.  90% of the time it's heavily in favor of 2/3 of the triangle, the other 1/3 is written as more of an antagonist,  a "problem" for the writers golden couple.  From, ER to Starz Power to BH 90210. I even stopped watching soap operas for this very reason(Shows like ER and The Sopranos changed my taste in entertainment)

 

2 shows I felt did a good job. Sex and The City and The Affair. 

 

In Sex and the City, Big and Carrie were the popular couple at the time but Big married a woman names Natasha and Carrie was dating a man named Aidan. Big and Carrie began an affair and suffice it to say, it was a mess. What I liked was despite that fact that Carrie was the star of the show or that Big and Carrie were popular, the writers never felt the need to compromise the integrity of  Natasha and Aidan's characters. They made a point of showing that Carrie and Big were wrong...period. 

 

 

The Affair was a show about a  man leaving his family for a woman he met. A woman whom was also married, The writers fleshed out all of the characters and didn't just focus on the two having the Affair. They were fleshed out so good that the writers changed the initial ending.  

Edited August 18 by Mrsmaul2021