S04.E10: The Wilderness

[EllaWycliffe]

War isn't tearing a man apart, leaving his body hanging with a sarcastic phrase, and sending body parts to his wife. That's personal revenge. They're two very different things. While I certainly understand the urge for revenge, especially after being denied a trial where Fred would end up imprisoned, it is still just revenge, not war. 

[Dobian]

Revenge Porn

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

War isn't tearing a man apart, leaving his body hanging with a sarcastic phrase, and sending body parts to his wife. That's personal revenge. They're two very different things. While I certainly understand the urge for revenge, especially after being denied a trial where Fred would end up imprisoned, it is still just revenge, not war. 

You fight with what you have.

You don't think that sent a message to Gilead?

[EllaWycliffe]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

You don't think that sent a message to Gilead?

That they killed a guy who was led by his dick into crossing the border by his wife? Who then turned on Gilead in order to avoid prison? I think the very fact that Lawrence and Nick were involved was Gilead sending the message "we don't really care what happens to Fred".

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

That they killed a guy who was led by his dick into crossing the border by his wife? Who then turned on Gilead in order to avoid prison? I think the very fact that Lawrence and Nick were involved was Gilead sending the message "we don't really care what happens to Fred".

That they executed a Commander, using the same methods that Commander helped initiate in Gilead, and they didn't do it because he betrayed Gilead, but because he's a war criminal.

Oh, and by the way, we also executed a bunch of Commanders at one of your Jezebel clubs.

The message?  Keep it up dudes, and you will be next.

ETA

Oh, and guess what boys?  WOMEN did that, watch your backs.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

I doubt Gilead really cared. They wanted him dead and now his blood is on the hands of revengeful women. They probably think Fred got what he deserved for being so stupid and so weak. 

[Umbelina]

Just now, EllaWycliffe said:

I doubt Gilead really cared. They wanted him dead and now his blood is on the hands of revengeful women. They probably think Fred got what he deserved for being so stupid and so weak. 

Maybe.

So you think they should all just give up, write off all the stolen children, and subjugated slaves still being beaten and raped and not allowed to read, their daughters old enough to be married off to whomever, and just be happy they escaped?

OK then.

[Trudilu]

6 hours ago, Cornhusker12 said:

Yeah I definitely agree. There are tons of fascinating characters in tv/movie history who are supposed to be vague/mysterious/buttoned up/poker-faced, but through the writing and acting we as the audience somehow learn and understand WHY they are that way and for what purpose. I just get nothing from Tuello haha it just feels like a wasted character so far.

 

OK I just found this great place for discussion - so not sure how to navigate!  I'd like to start at #1 and read all the posts - if I see a post I want to reply to or comment on - what do I do?

I'm not even sure where this post will land - so I hope someone will notify me!!!

I thought it was a GREAT finale and have much to say!

[Trudilu]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

You're holding her as an example of a good fighter against Gilead. My point is that her rage isn't necessarily productive. Killing people because they're oppressing you? I'm down with that. Killing someone who might have been an oppressor because you're so enraged you don't bother to find out any details because you just want to explode your rage on a target? Not such a good thing. 

And you were citing this as an example of how Emily stood up to Gilead by fighting. My point is that by just rage murdering someone, we really have no idea if this was a good act or not. Emily's ease in killing versus Moira's hesitance is a trade off. The overall disturbing aspect of this, if we take it a step further, is that the handmaids who are willingly participating in tearing a man apart are in danger of becoming exactly the thing they hate. Nietzsche said it - "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

That's what June and to a lesser extent Emily and the other handmaids are risking.

What an articulate comment!  Loved it....and what ARE the handmaids risking, exactly.  I'm not entirely sure that I get that!!!  Seems like June (as the commander says) hasn't lost her touch.  She is very good at getting others to do what SHE want in manipulating their emotions; fueling their anger; thus the angry crowd of women beating Fred.  I thought it was brilliant - BUT - when June says to Luke; just give me 5 minutes with Nicole; where is June going, exactly.

[Trudilu]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

 

Then we shouldn't glorify it - Emily is someone who kills without counting the cost or even verifying if her target deserved it. The killing of the wife was specifically planned by Emily, complete with Emily pretending to be kind, and yet we have no idea why the wife was there and we do know that wives are victimized in Gilead. Emily is a person who intentionally murders without even bothering with Harry's Rule from Dexter - make sure they deserve it. 

If they can't beat Gilead without becoming as vicious or more vicious than Gilead, are they really winning?

Don't mind me, I'm just in a philosophical mood tonight. 

Their anger, that has built up for years, needs an outlet.  Gilead does a lot more than 'killing' - there are worse things than killing, don't you think?  You come to Gilead a normal woman and you leave, a kind of monster still inside of you as a result of the horrifying life they had.

[EllaWycliffe]

Just now, Trudilu said:

Their anger, that has built up for years, needs an outlet.  Gilead does a lot more than 'killing' - there are worse things than killing, don't you think?  You come to Gilead a normal woman and you leave, a kind of monster still inside of you as a result of the horrifying life they had.

That's an interesting idea as well. 

Lawrence's point to June  - "It won't be enough." is also interesting. What will be enough?

[Trudilu]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

That's an interesting idea as well. 

Lawrence's point to June  - "It won't be enough." is also interesting. What will be enough?

I guess we will all find out.  Aside from revenge; she wants to get Hannah back and if I know June in some bizarre way - that will happen!!!  But, I do think she is losing Luke; she is no longer the June he once knew and loved - sad to say.

 

[dmc]

18 hours ago, The Spinster said:

I agree. He really is about as exciting as watching paint dry - a perfect example of a cowardly bureaucrat. He even whined about his safety when meeting with Commander Lawrence. I don't get the attraction everyone is talking about between him and Serena. The man is unbearably dull. Perhaps he supposed to be void of any fire in his belly.  But to what purpose? 

I too think he’s a waste of space as a character.

and agree the whining on the bench were the first signs of life.  
 

but it didn’t make him less boring…just whiny and boring. Also if June arranged meeting with embassy they had to give her his address which is another plot hole.  It always makes me laugh when people called intelligence act not intelligent 

 

also the wall/Fred is a plot hole.  Clearly the women did it because of the writing but they couldn’t have gotten into Gilead 

Edited June 22, 2021 by dmc

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Actually, I just think murdering Fred - someone who already betrayed Gilead on multiple occasions - isn't going to accomplish anything other than personal revenge. Personal revenge is lovely, but it's not freeing any enslaved women or children. It's not restoring the US. And odds are, its not going to change how the leaders in Gilead think. They're holding the wolf by the ears right now, and they can't let go because there's no way to not get bit by what they created. 

It will be interesting to see how Fred's death plays out in Gilead. If they had let him return he probably would have been executed as a traitor. But now I can totally see the regime spinning it like how Fred was murdered by sinful women and they were right in controlling them. So they might have just made Fred a martyr for the Gilead cause.

[dmc]

I finally just dawned on me why Serena and Fred are in nice rooms versus cells. I think it has to do with the US government is being run in another country.  They don’t have jails.  All they have is this detention center they built.  
 

Canada does but these are US prisoners 

Edited June 22, 2021 by dmc

[EllaWycliffe]

Here's a thought. June drove to where ever the kill site was in Gilead. Certainly hours away from their Toronto home...drove hours back and Fred's blood was still freshly wet on her face to where it smeared onto the baby....

How did that happen?

[FierceCritter]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:12 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

More specifically Fred was handed over ON A BRIDGE at the US/Canadian border. Therefore it had to be upstate NY.

 

There are also 3 bridges between Canada and Michigan. 

The Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River between Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Canada. 

The Blue Water Bridge over the Ste Clair River between Port Huron Michigan and Point Edwards, Canada.

The International Bridge over the Ste Mary's River between Sault Ste Marie, Michigan and Sault Ste Marie, Canada.

Those are just the ones I know of in Michigan, because I am a Michigander.

Some of this has me confused because I have no idea where in Canada June and the rest are supposed to be.

Why does any of this matter to me? Because while I'm not very into the worlds of the TV shows I watch beyond what is on screen, I do like to have an idea of what in the heck is going on when I watch. And I can't help but wonder if Fred's body is in Canada, what good it will do as a message to Gilead. And what the results of all that happened in this episode will mean in the next season.

 Umbelina said (In reference to Fred on the wall/Latin quote) "You fight with what you have.

You don't think that sent a message to Gilead?" 

(Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to add that quote when editing this post)

That's what got me wondering where that last scene took place. Because if that happened in Canada, then no, I don't think that sent a message to Gilead at all.

And again, I don't really understand where all of this is happening. I don't know where in Canada the refugees are. I don't know what part of the U.S. it is that they are crossing back and forth from. Any of them - including when Serena & Fred were driving there and Fred got arrested.

I don't ordinarily care about "little" details like this. But the geography thing has been irritating me since Chicago.

Edited June 22, 2021 by FierceCritter

[Trudilu]

15 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

That's an interesting idea as well. 

Lawrence's point to June  - "It won't be enough." is also interesting. What will be enough?

I always felt that Lawrence was a very smart (and different) from most of the commanders in Gilead.  But I don't really understand him.  He created this idea; this life; and yet his now deceased wife hate the process and now I don't get whose side he's on.  It's amazing that June got Lawrence, Tuello and Nick to betray Fred; but not so hard to understand.  I wonder how he's going to help June in the future.  I think he will have a strong role.

btw, it occurred to me that Lawrence played the 'father' in the movie 'get out' - I knew i recognized him from somewhere - he a good actor playing such a different character!

[EllaWycliffe]

Agree there are bridges in Michigan but there's also a distance issue. The closest would be Detroit and thats a pretty urban area. That's why I ruled it out. A minor note as well is that Lawrence meeting up at the bridge means Lawrence would be traveling from Massachusetts to the bridge and NY is closer than MI.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, FierceCritter said:

There are also 3 bridges between Canada and Michigan. 

The Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River between Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Canada. 

The Blue Water Bridge over the Ste Clair River between Port Huron Michigan and Point Edwards, Canada.

The International Bridge over the Ste Mary's River between Sault Ste Marie, Michigan and Sault Ste Marie, Canada.

Those are just the ones I know of in Michigan, because I am a Michigander.

Some of this has me confused because I have no idea where in Canada June and the rest are supposed to be.

Why does any of this matter to me? Because while I'm not very into the worlds of the TV shows I watch beyond what is on screen, I do like to have an idea of what in the heck is going on when I watch. And I can't help but wonder if Fred's body is in Canada, what good it will do as a message to Gilead. And what the results of all that happened in this episode will mean in the next season.

 Umbelina said (In reference to Fred on the wall/Latin quote) "You fight with what you have.

You don't think that sent a message to Gilead?" 

(Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to add that quote when editing this post)

That's what got me wondering where that last scene took place. Because if that happened in Canada, then no, I don't think that sent a message to Gilead at all.

And again, I don't really understand where all of this is happening. I don't know where in Canada the refugees are. I don't know what part of the U.S. it is that they are crossing back and forth from. Any of them - including when Serena & Fred were driving there and Fred got arrested.

I don't ordinarily care about "little" details like this. But the geography thing has been irritating me since Chicago.

I need to look up a map of it all, but I don't have the time right now. 

Lawrence: I don't like him, because he threatened to harm a little girl, in order to retrieve women who had escaped. He also wanted to get some of the children back, that he helped to get out of there in the first place. I think any compassion came from his wife, and now that she's gone, he's left with helping to run the place that he created. He might face the same charges as Fred, if he tried to leave for Canada. I also think that he likes to stir things up, but Fred dying the way he did, is something that he would want, because the ceremonial raping of June, that he was forced into, is partly what drove his wife over the edge. She was the only person that he really loved.

[The Spinster]

19 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

War isn't tearing a man apart, leaving his body hanging with a sarcastic phrase, and sending body parts to his wife. That's personal revenge. They're two very different things. While I certainly understand the urge for revenge, especially after being denied a trial where Fred would end up imprisoned, it is still just revenge, not war. 

I would argue that that is exactly what war is. The act of killing the enemy is tearing a body apart - whether with a bullet, a knife/sword, a bomb, a drone - or with your bare hands. 

It was both physical and psychological warfare. . 

 

[Umbelina]

28 minutes ago, The Spinster said:

I would argue that that is exactly what war is. The act of killing the enemy is tearing a body apart - whether with a bullet, a knife/sword, a bomb, a drone - or with your bare hands. 

It was both physical and psychological warfare. . 

 

I agree.

Remember that other group of Commanders that was poisoned by June as well.  She's taking out the leaders of Gilead.  Warring forces, rebels, Mayday are taking out troops and wasting Gilead resources all over the country as well.  This is a multi-pronged attack that has been going on for years, ever since the coup that murdered the congressional, judicial, and executive branch of the US government, eliminated the constitution, and subjugated all women (and others.)

June's done a couple of remarkable things, but none have been out of the blue, her experiences helped prepare her.  Her near escapes showed her more of how the rebels work, safe houses work.  She learned about Mayday initially from Emily, and volunteered, carried out a pretty dangerous mission at Jezebels, where she also gave Moira a pep talk about escaping, and not giving up.  She knew about Jezebel's from her creep of a commander, Fred, she learned about black markets from Nick (someone she was forced to know by Serena) and was told he was an Eye, which he confirmed.  

Fred's ego, as we saw clearly in the scenes in this episode (and before) deceived him into believing June really did secretly desire/care for him.  That's why that kiss with Nick was so powerful this time.  Fred knew, at that moment, just what a fool he was. 

Lawrence liked smart women, he preferred Emily because she was brilliant and thus "not boring."  Emily had to go after that attack on Lydia though.  June didn't exactly charm Lawrence, she wasn't as clever or brilliant as Emily, but she learned how to work with him, initially through his wife, and eventually got him to open up to her a bit.  Her sheer audacity at the plan to save both Joseph, his wife, and doing that by having Joseph show up with a bunch of kids to ensure his forgiveness rather than immediate execution in Canada, and be able to get his wife some help?  Worked.  That fell apart, with his wife losing it and nearly exposing all of them.  June REFUSED to give up on the plan, and many more children showed up than she expected.  She risked her life getting into Jezebel's to arrange for a bigger plane. 

At Lawrence's place she also got up close and personal with the main "Mayday" group in Boston, those Martha's, and insisted on learning their ways and helping where she could.  The resisted but finally allowed her in, where she learned about bomb makers etc.  Then Lawrence forced her to choose who would live and who would die at the detention center.  At first, horrified, she broke and couldn't.  Later she realized she needed to save the women who would be of most use to the resistance, so she did.

When the plane was about to be attacked, she created a distraction, herself, and began to run to lead the guardians away from the airstrip and allow the plane to take off.  She fully expected to be shot or captured, she had no idea the handmaids followed her rather than get on the plane and escape themselves.

Along her bumpy path, she's learned quite a bit, including from the Aunts.  If Lydia hadn't punished her so harshly by making her pray for months at the bed of the brain dead Handmaid who had betrayed Hannah?  She probably would never have come to the conclusion that getting Hannah out wasn't enough, that all the children were just as important as Hannah.  Since Hannah was out of reach, even Lawrence didn't know where she'd been sent?  She hatched the plan of rescuing other children.

Each step of June's path has prepared her for all of this.  She is certainly NOT the only one fighting, but in many ways she's uniquely qualified to do quite a few vital things, from killing Commanders (with Esther's safe house poison and her knowledge of Jezebels) to how supply planes work, and how to bargain for one from the underground profiteers at Jezebels.  Now she just negotiated for 22 more resistance fighter's freedom.  So what's that total of rescues now?  Well over 100 people.  How many Commanders has she killed?  More than most, although Moira killed one too.

People in Gilead ARE fighting back, all over, and June is one of them.  Killing Fred that way sent a huge message as well.  Emily was all in from the beginning, without Emily?  Who knows which choice June would have made there?  That little talk, close ups on both of them, called that decision.  As far as the others who participated in classic Gilead justice?  Does anyone obviously think they were forced somehow?  They looked pretty enthusiastic to me, and I doubt that was a one time thing, for some, maybe that tiny bit of justice was enough and they can go live their lives.  For others, probably most?  They just got a small bit of power back, and hopefully, realize they CAN make a difference, and fight to overthrow the monsters that stole their country, their freedoms, and their bodies.

[Trudilu]

34 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I agree.

Remember that other group of Commanders that was poisoned by June as well.  She's taking out the leaders of Gilead.  Warring forces, rebels, Mayday are taking out troops and wasting Gilead resources all over the country as well.  This is a multi-pronged attack that has been going on for years, ever since the coup that murdered the congressional, judicial, and executive branch of the US government, eliminated the constitution, and subjugated all women (and others.)

June's done a couple of remarkable things, but none have been out of the blue, her experiences helped prepare her.  Her near escapes showed her more of how the rebels work, safe houses work.  She learned about Mayday initially from Emily, and volunteered, carried out a pretty dangerous mission at Jezebels, where she also gave Moira a pep talk about escaping, and not giving up.  She knew about Jezebel's from her creep of a commander, Fred, she learned about black markets from Nick (someone she was forced to know by Serena) and was told he was an Eye, which he confirmed.  

Fred's ego, as we saw clearly in the scenes in this episode (and before) deceived him into believing June really did secretly desire/care for him.  That's why that kiss with Nick was so powerful this time.  Fred knew, at that moment, just what a fool he was. 

Lawrence liked smart women, he preferred Emily because she was brilliant and thus "not boring."  Emily had to go after that attack on Lydia though.  June didn't exactly charm Lawrence, she wasn't as clever or brilliant as Emily, but she learned how to work with him, initially through his wife, and eventually got him to open up to her a bit.  Her sheer audacity at the plan to save both Joseph, his wife, and doing that by having Joseph show up with a bunch of kids to ensure his forgiveness rather than immediate execution in Canada, and be able to get his wife some help?  Worked.  That fell apart, with his wife losing it and nearly exposing all of them.  June REFUSED to give up on the plan, and many more children showed up than she expected.  She risked her life getting into Jezebel's to arrange for a bigger plane. 

At Lawrence's place she also got up close and personal with the main "Mayday" group in Boston, those Martha's, and insisted on learning their ways and helping where she could.  The resisted but finally allowed her in, where she learned about bomb makers etc.  Then Lawrence forced her to choose who would live and who would die at the detention center.  At first, horrified, she broke and couldn't.  Later she realized she needed to save the women who would be of most use to the resistance, so she did.

When the plane was about to be attacked, she created a distraction, herself, and began to run to lead the guardians away from the airstrip and allow the plane to take off.  She fully expected to be shot or captured, she had no idea the handmaids followed her rather than get on the plane and escape themselves.

Along her bumpy path, she's learned quite a bit, including from the Aunts.  If Lydia hadn't punished her so harshly by making her pray for months at the bed of the brain dead Handmaid who had betrayed Hannah?  She probably would never have come to the conclusion that getting Hannah out wasn't enough, that all the children were just as important as Hannah.  Since Hannah was out of reach, even Lawrence didn't know where she'd been sent?  She hatched the plan of rescuing other children.

Each step of June's path has prepared her for all of this.  She is certainly NOT the only one fighting, but in many ways she's uniquely qualified to do quite a few vital things, from killing Commanders (with Esther's safe house poison and her knowledge of Jezebels) to how supply planes work, and how to bargain for one from the underground profiteers at Jezebels.  Now she just negotiated for 22 more resistance fighter's freedom.  So what's that total of rescues now?  Well over 100 people.  How many Commanders has she killed?  More than most, although Moira killed one too.

People in Gilead ARE fighting back, all over, and June is one of them.  Killing Fred that way sent a huge message as well.  Emily was all in from the beginning, without Emily?  Who knows which choice June would have made there?  That little talk, close ups on both of them, called that decision.  As far as the others who participated in classic Gilead justice?  Does anyone obviously think they were forced somehow?  They looked pretty enthusiastic to me, and I doubt that was a one time thing, for some, maybe that tiny bit of justice was enough and they can go live their lives.  For others, probably most?  They just got a small bit of power back, and hopefully, realize they CAN make a difference, and fight to overthrow the monsters that stole their country, their freedoms, and their bodies.

Fantastic comments!

[Anela]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I agree.

Remember that other group of Commanders that was poisoned by June as well.  She's taking out the leaders of Gilead.  Warring forces, rebels, Mayday are taking out troops and wasting Gilead resources all over the country as well.  This is a multi-pronged attack that has been going on for years, ever since the coup that murdered the congressional, judicial, and executive branch of the US government, eliminated the constitution, and subjugated all women (and others.)

June's done a couple of remarkable things, but none have been out of the blue, her experiences helped prepare her.  Her near escapes showed her more of how the rebels work, safe houses work.  She learned about Mayday initially from Emily, and volunteered, carried out a pretty dangerous mission at Jezebels, where she also gave Moira a pep talk about escaping, and not giving up.  She knew about Jezebel's from her creep of a commander, Fred, she learned about black markets from Nick (someone she was forced to know by Serena) and was told he was an Eye, which he confirmed.  

Fred's ego, as we saw clearly in the scenes in this episode (and before) deceived him into believing June really did secretly desire/care for him.  That's why that kiss with Nick was so powerful this time.  Fred knew, at that moment, just what a fool he was. 

Lawrence liked smart women, he preferred Emily because she was brilliant and thus "not boring."  Emily had to go after that attack on Lydia though.  June didn't exactly charm Lawrence, she wasn't as clever or brilliant as Emily, but she learned how to work with him, initially through his wife, and eventually got him to open up to her a bit.  Her sheer audacity at the plan to save both Joseph, his wife, and doing that by having Joseph show up with a bunch of kids to ensure his forgiveness rather than immediate execution in Canada, and be able to get his wife some help?  Worked.  That fell apart, with his wife losing it and nearly exposing all of them.  June REFUSED to give up on the plan, and many more children showed up than she expected.  She risked her life getting into Jezebel's to arrange for a bigger plane. 

At Lawrence's place she also got up close and personal with the main "Mayday" group in Boston, those Martha's, and insisted on learning their ways and helping where she could.  The resisted but finally allowed her in, where she learned about bomb makers etc.  Then Lawrence forced her to choose who would live and who would die at the detention center.  At first, horrified, she broke and couldn't.  Later she realized she needed to save the women who would be of most use to the resistance, so she did.

When the plane was about to be attacked, she created a distraction, herself, and began to run to lead the guardians away from the airstrip and allow the plane to take off.  She fully expected to be shot or captured, she had no idea the handmaids followed her rather than get on the plane and escape themselves.

Along her bumpy path, she's learned quite a bit, including from the Aunts.  If Lydia hadn't punished her so harshly by making her pray for months at the bed of the brain dead Handmaid who had betrayed Hannah?  She probably would never have come to the conclusion that getting Hannah out wasn't enough, that all the children were just as important as Hannah.  Since Hannah was out of reach, even Lawrence didn't know where she'd been sent?  She hatched the plan of rescuing other children.

Each step of June's path has prepared her for all of this.  She is certainly NOT the only one fighting, but in many ways she's uniquely qualified to do quite a few vital things, from killing Commanders (with Esther's safe house poison and her knowledge of Jezebels) to how supply planes work, and how to bargain for one from the underground profiteers at Jezebels.  Now she just negotiated for 22 more resistance fighter's freedom.  So what's that total of rescues now?  Well over 100 people.  How many Commanders has she killed?  More than most, although Moira killed one too.

People in Gilead ARE fighting back, all over, and June is one of them.  Killing Fred that way sent a huge message as well.  Emily was all in from the beginning, without Emily?  Who knows which choice June would have made there?  That little talk, close ups on both of them, called that decision.  As far as the others who participated in classic Gilead justice?  Does anyone obviously think they were forced somehow?  They looked pretty enthusiastic to me, and I doubt that was a one time thing, for some, maybe that tiny bit of justice was enough and they can go live their lives.  For others, probably most?  They just got a small bit of power back, and hopefully, realize they CAN make a difference, and fight to overthrow the monsters that stole their country, their freedoms, and their bodies.

Yea, but my only issue last night, was that every single handmaid was being called “weak” and selfish, if they didn’t want to take part in murdering a man.  June is uniquely qualified, because she’s the main character. We haven’t seen what most of the others have gone through, she doesn’t know everything about them either.  Emily might have murdered Mrs. Lawrence at that other camp, if she hadn’t personally known that she was a good woman. 
 

Lawrence gave Janine to Lydia, like someone might give a chew toy to a puppy.  He didn’t care what Lydia did to her.  

Edited June 23, 2021 by Anela

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Anela said:

Yea, but my only issue last night, was that every single handmaid was being called “weak” and selfish, if they didn’t want to take part in murdering a man.  June is uniquely qualified, because she’s the main character. We haven’t seen what most of the others have gone through, she doesn’t know everything about them either.  Emily might have murdered Mrs. Lawrence at that other camp, if she hadn’t personally known that she was a good woman. 

Who was called weak or selfish, and by whom?

[Anela]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Who was called weak or selfish, and by whom?

That isn’t what you were saying last night? Because Moira didn’t want vengeance?

[EllaWycliffe]

By implication, if the handmaids who decide to follow June and June's plans are strong, the ones who aren't up for a night of actually ripping a man apart must be weak in comparison. Moira isn't willing to join the kill mob because she's content to rebuild her life, the implication is that its selfish. 

I don't believe Moira or Rita are being complimented for their decision to not join in. 

[Cinnabon]

They’re choosing something different, no one ever said they were selfish. And most of us would also choose Moira’s path. 

[dmc]

2 hours ago, The Spinster said:

I would argue that that is exactly what war is. The act of killing the enemy is tearing a body apart - whether with a bullet, a knife/sword, a bomb, a drone - or with your bare hands. 

It was both physical and psychological warfare. . 

 

War is an intense armed conflict between states, governments, societies, or paramilitary groups such as mercenaries, insurgents, and militias. It is generally characterized by extreme violence, aggression, destruction, and mortality, using regular or irregular military forces.

 

Yep this is war.  

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

By implication, if the handmaids who decide to follow June and June's plans are strong, the ones who aren't up for a night of actually ripping a man apart must be weak in comparison. Moira isn't willing to join the kill mob because she's content to rebuild her life, the implication is that its selfish. 

I don't believe Moira or Rita are being complimented for their decision to not join in. 

They aren't being bullied or shamed either in my opinion.  The episode where June pulled that nonsence at support group I felt differently and commented as such. Victims shouldn't be forced to be angry because June is.  But here she seemed accepting of their choice

Edited June 23, 2021 by dmc

[EllaWycliffe]

I still don't think Moira or Rita were being complimented for their choices in this episode's discussion. I don't think what June did will help the women of Gilead, someone else pointed out that Gilead is just as likely to crack down on the women further to have revenge for women killing Fred. (I don't think they cared that Fred was killed, that was the plan, after all.)

Sure, June got an additional 22 women released to Canada. How many will Gilead execute to make womenkind pay for Fred's death?

I'm actually intrigued to see where next season goes.

 

[Umbelina]

Just now, Anela said:

That isn’t what you were saying last night? Because Moira didn’t want vengeance?

Not at all.  

People make choices based on what they are able to do.  Moira helped many refugees adjust to life out of Gilead, helped them get medical cards, and housing.  Where I think she overstepped was thinking she was qualified to lead group therapy, and instead of letting people talk, tell their truths, she clamped down on that and instead tried to force HER truths on them.  They were not ready, which is why they responded to June.  

Most people do not fight in wars, they stay home and stay safe.  

However, some MUST fight, or horrendous regimes, like Hitler's, or Gilead's?  Go unchecked and continue to murder, to enslave, to oppress, to rape.  Moira killed to save herself.  Mayday kills to save others, or save their country.

People are different.  They contribute what they can.

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

They’re choosing something different, no one ever said they were selfish. And most of us would also choose Moira’s path. 

Exactly, and as I said earlier, I would probably choose something similar to Moira's plan, but I would get the hell out of Canada, which is within a breath of an unstable regime that is capable of anything.  I'd probably run and hide far far away from all of it.

3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

By implication, if the handmaids who decide to follow June and June's plans are strong, the ones who aren't up for a night of actually ripping a man apart must be weak in comparison. Moira isn't willing to join the kill mob because she's content to rebuild her life, the implication is that its selfish. 

I don't believe Moira or Rita are being complimented for their decision to not join in. 

Not at all.  

Where Moira was selfish was in expecting other refugees to do it HER WAY. She was clamping down on their ability to speak, one reason why Emily was such a mess, and some others in that group were a mess.  It's not all peace love and relax.  Moira's been gone and safe for a LONG time, and she was never a handmaid.  Her way is not the way these people needed at that time.

What's to compliment?  They are keeping themselves safe.  Woo.  No judgement, but they are doing absolutely nothing to help the others still in hell in Gilead, and at the very least, need to recognize that not all share their feelings, and those that don't are not "bad" or "wrong."

3 minutes ago, dmc said:

War is an intense armed conflict between states, governments, societies, or paramilitary groups such as mercenaries, insurgents, and militias. It is generally characterized by extreme violence, aggression, destruction, and mortality, using regular or irregular military forces.

 

Yep this is war.  

Yes, and thank God for those people who are willing to put their lives on the line for others, for justice, for equality, for the end of rape and murder, and child breeding facilities.

Thank God for people who want to end a system that kills all educated people, gays, and cut's women's eye's out for standing up for themselves.

This is war.  Some will want to fight.  Some won't.  June wants to, and obviously is inspirational to others as well, those who have that same desire.

Think about Gilead right now, all those Commanders who never came home from that Jezebels!  The Martha and Handmaid networks, and Mayday realizing, in a very direct way, that the war IS being fought, that hope DOES exist, that there are people out there willing to take down Gilead.  How many more will that inspire?  Who else inside Gilead will take out their Commander?  How at ease are Commanders now at their Jezebel's rape clubs?  

I think this is changing everything for them, they know children are now out of Gilead, and safe, as well as resistance fighters, safe, and their Commanders?  Are dying.  It's HUGE.

[mamadrama]

On 6/21/2021 at 4:32 PM, The Spinster said:

June smearing blood on baby Nichole,,, the Warrior returns to the cave and smears her child with the blood of the dragon she has slain. 

Or her pain and trauma bleeds over onto every person in her life whether she means for it to or not. 

[ReganX]

Watching Fred’s death scene again, and his stupidity is staggering. 

Of all the appeals he could have made for mercy, he thought that “I have a son” had a snowball’s chance in Hell of working? That women whose children were snatched from their arms by the regime that he helped build were going to spare him so he could be a father to his son?

[greekmom]

On 6/18/2021 at 1:52 PM, FierceCritter said:

I'm trying to understand something about the logistics of the end.

1) Fred is handed over at the USA/Gilead border. So he's now in Gilead.
2) Fred is driven in a Gilead vehicle by Gilead personnel to some forest
3) Former handmaids also drive to this forest to kill Fred.
4) Fred is killed and strung up against a wall.
 

Think of it as the demilitarized zone between two counties. Im thinking it's somewhere over the Canadian boarder but its land not belonging to Gilead but maybe former US?

On 6/18/2021 at 11:56 PM, BrindaWalsh said:

I'd like to know how they found a wall in the woods on such short notice.

Plot contrivance . Just go with it.

You all have been very busy with some heated discussions. I had to wade through 4 pages!

[Whimsy]

While we realize that the show has aired it's finale and now you want to talk about all kinds of things, this thread is for THIS episode only.  

Also, as a reminder, the Be Civil Rules still applies.  We will be removing all of the posts that are not related to this episode and/or are not civil to your fellow posters. 

[mamadrama]

7 hours ago, ReganX said:

Watching Fred’s death scene again, and his stupidity is staggering. 

Of all the appeals he could have made for mercy, he thought that “I have a son” had a snowball’s chance in Hell of working? That women whose children were snatched from their arms by the regime that he helped build were going to spare him so he could be a father to his son?

Yeah, really. It also made me think that the asshat is so misogynistic that he thinks the only way to appeal to women is through their motherhood.  

[ReganX]

16 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, really. It also made me think that the asshat is so misogynistic that he thinks the only way to appeal to women is through their motherhood.  

True. He was protesting that he was a man and he had rights, so , knowing Fred, it was probably a mix of him thinking "rights for me and not for thee", and of holding Canada and the United States to higher standards than his precious Gilead. It wouldn't surprise me if Fred was convinced that it was totally different for 'godless'/'sinful' parents to have their children taken from them than it was for a godly man like him to lose his son.

[mamadrama]

21 minutes ago, ReganX said:

True. He was protesting that he was a man and he had rights, so , knowing Fred, it was probably a mix of him thinking "rights for me and not for thee", and of holding Canada and the United States to higher standards than his precious Gilead. It wouldn't surprise me if Fred was convinced that it was totally different for 'godless'/'sinful' parents to have their children taken from them than it was for a godly man like him to lose his son.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure. Gilead men (and probably the women) are nothing if not hypocritical. 

[Whimsy]

I moved some posts over to the new thread because the discussion itself was fine, just not really related to this episode. 
 

@Umbelina, @EllaWycliffe, @Anela, @Helena Dax, @Dobian, @The Spinster, @Cornhusker12

[mamadrama]

On 6/21/2021 at 11:17 PM, Umbelina said:

You fight with what you have.

You don't think that sent a message to Gilead?

No, I don't. He was taken away by the Eyes and left in No Man's Land. IF anyone ever finds his body then they'll probably just assume their own people did it. They were probably going to kill him anyway. 

[EllaWycliffe]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

No, I don't. He was taken away by the Eyes and left in No Man's Land. IF anyone ever finds his body then they'll probably just assume their own people did it. They were probably going to kill him anyway. 

This. Technically, because of the finger sent to Serena, I think Canada/US knows Fred met his end "differently", but I absolutely think the official plan was for Gilead to execute Fred, and probably without a lot of public fanfare.  

Actually I do think one interesting question is how much did Gilead really know about this deal?

Another question I have been having is the 22 Marthas.... do we *really* think that while the handmaids were hunted, complete with two completely innocent Marthas executed to make June talk, that the remaining Marthas involved didn't go up on the wall within hours of the children found gone?

[AngelaHunter]

I finally worked up enough interest to watch this. MY favorite moment was seeing dumb, pompous, smug ol' Fred, top-coated and with briefcase in hand, for all the world like the CEO of some multinational company heading off to his important conference in Geneva.

"You aren't going to Geneva."

I liked that being grabbed, cuffed and terrified, thrown into the back of a truck was a great, "How do YOU like it?" moment.

Serena is not going to feel much grief about the loss of her spouse. When he was saying goodbye to her, she took care to keep her distance as she clearly felt revulsion and didn't want him trying to touch or kiss her.

On 6/22/2021 at 9:18 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

Sure, June got an additional 22 women released to Canada. How many will Gilead execute to make womenkind pay for Fred's death?

Good question. I see Gilead as some sort of Nazi state, where the innocent were made to pay for the misdeeds of others. It was a good way of keeping people in line.

[EllaWycliffe]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:02 AM, AngelaHunter said:

MY favorite moment was seeing dumb, pompous, smug ol' Fred, top-coated and with briefcase in hand, for all the world like the CEO of some multinational company heading off to his important conference in Geneva.

"You aren't going to Geneva."

I liked that being grabbed, cuffed and terrified, thrown into the back of a truck was a great, "How do YOU like it?" moment.

This was pretty sweet. I legit question why it wasn't better to let him go to Geneva and spill and then let the handmaids go wilding on him, but it really was emotionally satisfying. Especially his being chained in the transport truck/van thing like a handmaid. 

 

On 6/27/2021 at 11:02 AM, AngelaHunter said:

Serena is not going to feel much grief about the loss of her spouse. When he was saying goodbye to her, she took care to keep her distance as she clearly felt revulsion and didn't want him trying to touch or kiss her.

Serena has been cutting her losses for a while. With a little thought - while I am sure we can get a rewrite of history if thats where the show wants to go - Serena is actually in a good place. Fred and Fred's word was what fucked her original deal and no matter how sociopathic or vicious she really was, she can now use "Fred told me to, I had to obey him" as her get out of jail free card.  There's really a question of how hard this will be pushed, especially if Serena is writing some sort of tell all book. An aside - I still note that its an interesting assumption on both Gilead, Canada and the US's parts to assume Serena had no higher level knowledge of the workings of Gilead, simply because she was a wife. She has ears, and she's smart. She's full of info. 

I still want her baby ripped away from her. :)

On 6/27/2021 at 11:02 AM, AngelaHunter said:

I see Gilead as some sort of Nazi state, where the innocent were made to pay for the misdeeds of others. It was a good way of keeping people in line.

Yup. 

[anna0852]

The longer Serena is in Canada, the less valuable to them she becomes.  She might have certainly participated in the buildup and the takeover to Gilead. However once the overthrow had taken place, she was completely cut out of the loop. Any information she has she would have gotten 2nd hand via her husband or overhearing the other commanders. And that information is becoming more outdated by the day. I don't see how Serena can be of much more use to either the Canadian or US authorities. And once she has that baby, getting rid of her becomes much more complicated because if the baby is born in Canada it's automatically a Canadian citizen and that gives Serena standing to stay there. If the authorities are smart, they will deport her ass back to Gilead before she gives birth.

I could see the US remnant wanting to prosecute her for the overthrow but I don't think she has any value as a defector. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by anna0852

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I still want her baby ripped away from her. :)

Yes! I so want her to know how it feels to be treated with less consideration than is a cow that just calved. I'd like June to the be the one to come and take the baby away from Serena without a word.

I really did enjoy watching the way she treated Fred as he came in to say his goodbyes to her. She turned her back on him and picked up the phone, dismissing him as though he were a handmaid of no consequence. Joseph Fiennes did a stellar job at being a slimy, nasty, pathetic little worm all the way through, right up to this scene where his subtle expressions showed his humiliation and confusion at no longer being in charge of anything and unable to issue orders or cut off any more fingers.

I'm still not sure what I thought about the women ripping him apart. I think I may have liked it more if they had a little trial right there, condemned him to death and hung him, as so many women were hung on the whims of the commanders.

[EllaWycliffe]

55 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

The longer Serena is in Canada, the less valuable to them she becomes.  She might have certainly participated in the buildup and the takeover to Gilead.

Fair enough and I've said the same about Fred, but no one has even *tried* to get Serena to spill. 

 

56 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

And once she has that baby, getting rid of her becomes much more complicated because if the baby is born in Canada it's automatically a Canadian citizen and that gives Serena standing to stay there.

Oh that's easily gotten around - she's a political prisoner. She's a political prisoner of the US being held in Canada. Or there's something nebulous about her status. Or Canada has changed the law since getting pummeled with refugees and babies of non citizens aren't automatically Canadian. Or babies ARE automatically Canadian and Canada won't send a Canadian citizen to Gilead, but they will boot Serena back to her beloved home without the baby. 

9 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I really did enjoy watching the way she treated Fred as he came in to say his goodbyes to her. She turned her back on him and picked up the phone, dismissing him as though he were a handmaid of no consequence. Joseph Fiennes did a stellar job at being a slimy, nasty, pathetic little worm all the way through, right up to this scene where his subtle expressions showed his humiliation and confusion at no longer being in charge of anything and unable to issue orders or cut off any more fingers.

I've always adored Joseph Fiennes's acting. He was just marvelous in this last episode. 

[AngelaHunter]

13 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I've always adored Joseph Fiennes's acting. He was just marvelous in this last episode.

I don't recall seeing him before, although I'd heard the name and recognized it mainly because of his brother. In this series, another actor might have hammed up the role to evil Snidely Whiplash levels, but he never does and his rather restrained performance still tells us everything we need to know about Fred. His scenes were some of the very best in the show, IMO. I'm sorry to see him go.

[EllaWycliffe]

He was in American Horror Story Asylum and I was kind of blown away there too. Other stuff as well, but his performance was great

[Trudilu]

On 6/22/2021 at 6:18 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

I still don't think Moira or Rita were being complimented for their choices in this episode's discussion. I don't think what June did will help the women of Gilead, someone else pointed out that Gilead is just as likely to crack down on the women further to have revenge for women killing Fred. (I don't think they cared that Fred was killed, that was the plan, after all.)

Sure, June got an additional 22 women released to Canada. How many will Gilead execute to make womenkind pay for Fred's death?

I'm actually intrigued to see where next season goes.

 

Can someone answer this?  I am also intrigued to see where the next season goes.  I suspect a lot of it will have to do with 'Serena' and her baby.  June still wants to see her suffer (that powerful meeting they had).

But, the season ends with June saying to Luke...just give me 5 minutes; then I'll go.  After she spends time with the baby - where does she think she is going?  I've been asking myself that question since it ended.  Where do you think June is going?

 

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, Trudilu said:

Can someone answer this?  I am also intrigued to see where the next season goes.  I suspect a lot of it will have to do with 'Serena' and her baby.  June still wants to see her suffer (that powerful meeting they had).

But, the season ends with June saying to Luke...just give me 5 minutes; then I'll go.  After she spends time with the baby - where does she think she is going?  I've been asking myself that question since it ended.  Where do you think June is going?

 

A few pages back @Umbelina posted an interview with the show runners where they give an answer to this very question.

You can search for her post here or look for the link in the media thread, where it has also been posted.