Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Bastet]

54 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

How exceedingly rare false accusations are?

Yes.  You may be unaware of the numerous studies concluding the same, and specifically of the investigative journalism that led to the documentaryVictim/Suspect, digestible for the TL; DR crowd, but they combine to confirm the obvious: the already miniscule number of false accusations are misrepresented as even more than they are, due to coerced recantations. 

[Danielg342]

I don't necessarily disagree that most accusations are not actually false. It takes a lot of courage to come forward with an accusation, and most will not expend that energy on something they know is false.

However, I also think that while it's important not to jump to conclusions that an allegation is false, it's also important not to jump to conclusions that an allegation is true. No matter how rare false accusations may be, everyone deserves their day in court, and every case has to be debated solely on its own individual merits.

[peachmangosteen]

That sentiment is all well and good but what it actually leads to is witch hunts against women that report/all this 'will someone only think of this poor man who might be falsely accused' bullshit. And it's just ridiculous because rape cases are barely even tried let alone lead to convictions anyway so there's basically no reason to worry about all these poor men who are being falsely accused, which again is literally not based in reality.

[Danielg342]

As someone whose life has been ruined by false accusations (no, I won't get into it), I would have to respectfully disagree that false accusations are not a problem. I don't care how many there really are- just like one rape is one too many so too is one false accusation.

All the problems you describe are not byproducts of "everyone has to have their day". They're byproducts of other parts of a broken system that- like many other parts of the justice system- are designed to protect those in power. Further, all the problems you describe are because the justice system does not really "give everyone their day", because it's a system that has been corrupted by those in power.

A fair justice system does not have to hurt anyone, and one that is truly fair where everyone "gets their day" should not hurt anyone.

[bluegirl147]

10 hours ago, Bastet said:

Her actions, and her parent' actions/inactions, don't matter.  If this is true, which I have no reason at this point to believe it is not, given how things have apparently played out thus far (amending the lawsuit from Celebrity A to naming Jay-Z following his camp's campaign of intimidation as a response to her lawyer's request for mediation) - and, you know, how exceedingly rare false accusations of sexual assault are - two men decided to rape her.  How she got to the party, what she did at the party, how old they thought she was, where her parents thought she was if they didn't know -- all irrelevant.  The alleged perpetrators' actions are the only ones that deserve scrutiny in evaluating this case, because if they did what she says they did, they're guilty, and nothing she or her parents did/didn't do has any bearing on that.

Thank you! We hear this a lot. Why was the girl/woman someplace she could get assaulted when the question should be why did a man assault her.

 

7 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

A fair justice system does not have to hurt anyone, and one that is truly fair where everyone "gets their day" should not hurt anyone.

When it comes to sexual assault I don't know how fair I would call our justice system. One that allows the accuser's sexual history to be used against her but the accused sexual history is not allowed to be used against him.

[FilmTVGeek80]

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yes.  You may be unaware of the numerous studies concluding the same, and specifically of the investigative journalism that led to the documentaryVictim/Suspect, digestible for the TL; DR crowd, but they combine to confirm the obvious: the already miniscule number of false accusations are misrepresented as even more than they are, due to coerced recantations. 

I’m aware of the studies and of that documentary. I don’t take one documentary as gospel proof of anything. I’m sure false recantations happen, just like false accusations do as well. As far as the research, it always seems murky to me because is it just based on the public recantations? And sometimes there’s a difference between a flat out false report and an accusation that can’t be proven either way. But based on the studies I’ve seen false accusations make up about 2-10% of reported assault cases. In 2023, there were about 127,000 reported assaults. 2% of 127,000 is 2500. I’m going to guess that those men - and their families - aren’t shrugging their shoulders and acting like it’s no big deal because false accusations are “exceedingly rare.”

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

That sentiment is all well and good but what it actually leads to is witch hunts against women that report/all this 'will someone only think of this poor man who might be falsely accused' bullshit. And it's just ridiculous because rape cases are barely even tried let alone lead to convictions anyway so there's basically no reason to worry about all these poor men who are being falsely accused, which again is literally not based in reality.

Literally not based on reality? Tell that to Conor Oberst. Or Brian Banks. I had this happen to a family member of mine. So, yes, it is literally based in reality.

41 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

As someone whose life has been ruined by false accusations (no, I won't get into it), I would have to respectfully disagree that false accusations are not a problem. I don't care how many there really are- just like one rape is one too many so too is one false accusation.

It blows my mind that this is considered a controversial take. No one is saying don’t feel bad for assault victims. It’s a horrific crime. But false accusations do happen. I don’t care how rare you think they are. To act like being accused falsely of something like that isn’t damaging and psychologically hard to come back from is not the case.

I’m not saying Jay-Z’s accuser is lying. But I’m allowed to have questions about her story and not be guilted for it. I’d much rather keep an open mind than act like I have all the information needed and label someone a pedophile rapist based on very little.

[Danielg342]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

When it comes to sexual assault I don't know how fair I would call our justice system. One that allows the accuser's sexual history to be used against her but the accused sexual history is not allowed to be used against him.

I acknowledged that the justice system is not fair. My point is that all the problems we have with the system- the witch hunts, the suppression tactics, people using their wealth and power to make things "go away", etc.- are due to the fact the system is not fair. Me wanting a fair system where every case is evaluated on its merits does not create these problems, the absence of a fair system does.

[Stats Queen]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

That sentiment is all well and good but what it actually leads to is witch hunts against women that report/all this 'will someone only think of this poor man who might be falsely accused' bullshit. And it's just ridiculous because rape cases are barely even tried let alone lead to convictions anyway so there's basically no reason to worry about all these poor men who are being falsely accused, which again is literally not based in reality.

I know someone whose life was destroyed by false allegations. Years later, the person came out and apologized and said she lied. The man in question lost his job and his life purpose. One of the best humans I have ever known.

You wouldn’t be happy if is happened to you or someone you love.

[peachmangosteen]

I'd be less happy if I or someone I love was raped and never got justice tbh, which is like par for the course and yet some people really do seem to get more up in arms over the like .01% false accusations that happen but to each his own I guess.

[Danielg342]

First, I think all of our perspectives will be coloured by our own experiences. Someone who was attacked and didn't receive justice for it will feel stronger about that than someone else whose life was ruined by a false accusation and vice versa.

More importantly, this ought to not be a competition. An injustice is an injustice, period. I feel just as strongly for survivors who didn't receive justice- for any reason- as I do for those, like me, who have had their lives ruined by a false accusation. Both of those incidents are wrong and shouldn't happen in a fair and just society.

Honestly, from a policy perspective, the numbers don't mean anything. There could be 300 false accusations of rape compared to one rape victim who didn't get justice, and that one victim who didn't receive justice should be taken just as seriously as the 300 people who were falsely accused.

One false accusation, just like one rape, is one too many.

I think the real problem with harassment and assault discussions is that it's too polarized and few really see the other side. It does not nor should it be that way. False accusations are wrong. So are having survivors who do not receive adequate justice. No one side is a "greater" problem- in fact, to ensure a fair and equitable justice system, they both ought to be treated as problems of great concern.

We can have an equilibrium where we can get justice for harassment and assault survivors and deal with the problem of false accusations. This doesn't have to be an either/or dichotomy, and reducing it to one prevents solving the problem- on both sides of the ledger.

[Bastet]

10 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

No one side is a "greater" problem

But one is greater in numbers -- one is a fucking epidemic, and one is something that happens rarely.  So while both are wrong, I am going to proportionally commit my attention to the one that is happening to someone every 68 seconds in this country.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

But one is greater in numbers -- one is a fucking epidemic, and one is something that happens rarely.  So while both are wrong, I am going to proportionally commit my attention to the one that is happening to someone every 68 seconds in this country.

Plus, this is Jay-Z.  He has money.  He has influence.  It feels like we keep seeing powerful men with multiple accusers, with court judgments against them, face a society giving a collective shrug of their shoulders and offering them more and more chances.

Basically, I'm not worried about false accusations ruining his life because I don't think real accusations would ruin his life.